Tabletop Roleplaying Games (D&D, Pathfinder, CoC, ETC.)

[The Ugly One]

I had heard it was the middle ground between 5e and 3e. I'd also heard it described as 3e without the bullshit.

There's some great stuff in there, like "equipment wastage" which is rules for gear wearing down or breaking, but I can't get people to switch. I think part of it is the strict tolkien races and classes only. A lot of the more exotic stuff is missing.

Well, sure. But it's just D&D. You can tinker a bit with rules here and there, but at the end of the day, the kinds of game experiences you have with any edition of D&D or the many clones just aren't all that different. The high-level view is the same thing. And this matters, because "want to play D&D, except now [minor mechanical differences]?" is just a tough sell, because people will generally default to preferring the D&D they already know. It's much easier to sell, "Instead of playing another game about exploring a dungeon and yoinking a troll's loot, what if we played a game about building our renown in a spacefaring civilization constantly struggling with pirates and rogue corporations? What if we played a game about dark cults summoning eldritch gods to devour the world in the modern day? What if we played a game about planning heists in a cyberpunk dystopia?"

 

[Overly Serious]

But in the event you don't watch the video. Every system I've tried it comes down to this. Either it's an entirely separate game where others don't get to contribute. Or it comes down to a die roll or three. In either case, because it hinges on a single character, there's a good chance they fuck it up and derail the whole game.

So, let's say there's a car chase. If it's just a drive check, the driver doesn't get to feel like the transporter. He just makes a couple of rolls and that's it. If there's detailed chase rules, then the other PCs are doing basically nothing while the mini game plays out. And in both cases, hanging the session, or even the campaign, on a single point of failure is just asking for a nat 1 or 2 and suddenly the car slams into a lamp post. The villains get away and the game is basically done without heavy DM interference.

4th Edition was the one where more than any other version of Shadowrun this issue was addressed. The classic example was hacking, where formerly there'd been the problem of the rest of the party having nothing to do while the hacker went on his virtual dungeon crawl; and vice versa. In 4th the Matrix and hacking were beautifully integrated into everything else and the artificial division between rigging (piloting vehicles by jacking into them) and hacking was lifted.

4th Edition was excellent for allowing people to blend concepts. Especially if you went Samurai who could usually specialise in at least two things - be a stealthy melee fighter, a melee sniper, a stealthy security specialists. Everything is point buy so if your concept is an assassin who is excellent at infiltration and also knows how to hack security systems, you can be that. And you can be that pretty well. Even Physical Adepts who by design had a fairly narrow concept could go in all sorts of ways - be some gun-fu John Wick type or some Tibetan mystic. About the only ones who really were forced into extreme specialisation were Technomancers but they were a stupid concept that any right thinking person banned from their game and their setting.

Seriously, if you're looking for cyberpunk but with a really robust and scalable rules system, Shadowrun 4e is it. Shame to ditch the magic and the setting but nothing says you can't just take the parts you want.

Of course the grognards from 3rd edition hated 4th with an incandescent resentment. And when Catalyst Game Labs screwed over the people who'd created 4th and were facing mass walkouts of their freelancers, the grognards leapt in willing to work for head pats just for the chance to change the term Hacking back to "Decking" and to say that WiFi no longer existed. The world might have moved on from the 80s, but they'd do anything to keep Shadowrun there.

And like @p1138 referenced with the comment about "limits", they insisted on introducing "fixes" for things that had only ever been their inability to properly understand the rules. I say inability, unwillingness is more like it. I'm not exaggerating when I say there were people there who hated 4e. In a real, heart-thumping, face-going-white sort of way. I've seen people that angry before, but never over a fucking TTRPG rule set. CGL screwing over the people who wrote 4th (and they really did), was the best thing to happen to some of these people. They were willing to work for free just to revert things that 4e had done like introduce WiFi hacking. It was mental disorder.

And Shadowrun 4e doesn't have classes. You should trust your fellow Farmers. Not some weird YouTuber guy who doesn't seem to have really played the games he's criticising.

 

[Adamska]

This is why I never understood the appeal of Mork Borg. And Mothership too while we're at it. It seems they're barely games, and more an excuse to sell a book of random bullshit with a loose theme.

The appeal is simple; it's really easy to shit out a brief barely-an-idea batch of homebrew and get a bit of money out of it since it's so low effort to get licensing for it and the market's that small. Similar reason PbtA is popular, same reason that some of the bigger OSR games have so many splats.

And Shadowrun 4e doesn't have classes. You should trust your fellow Farmers. Not some weird YouTuber guy who doesn't seem to have really played the games he's criticising.

In fairness, Spoony probably was referring to roles runners often play when he rambled about it and assumed that people would get that since you kind of have to be interested in the setting to want to watch it.

Shadowrun doesn't have classes in all of its editions from FASA/Catalyst. It's just how you spec the character. 4e's probably the quickest to grok and learn, 5e's pretty fun once you learn and work with the massive amount of jank and downplay the push, but it's horribly designed. 3e was the most polished and had the most stuff of the older stuff.

 

[p1138]

Seriously, if you're looking for cyberpunk but with a really robust and scalable rules system, Shadowrun 4e is it. Shame to ditch the magic and the setting but nothing says you can't just take the parts you want.

I'll point out the reason I suggested ditching the magic system and fantasy races, is because it seemed like that would have been counter to what they wanted to be able to do in a game, or at least the setting they were implying. This is also why I didn't suggest cyberpunk, as in my experience the system is focused too much on combat by comparison(won't speak for anyone else on that) or cyberpunk red that tried to be a rules light narrative driven version(as in, not really supporting anything) until the writers caved and started writing splatbooks for it to remove how generic some of the options had become(a large part of both shadowrun and cyberpunk after all is the shopping and gear). And yeah, nothing wrong with taking a system, deleting and aspect you don't like or want in your game, and applying that as a framework to support gameplay at the table. Probably better off than stapling yet another theme onto PbtA and trying to call that a game at the very least.

CGL screwing over the people

It's kind of impressive how CGL is still around with as much bullshit as their upper management has caused over the years for the company, employees, and even other businesses. Shadowrun is currently trash, Leviathans on the surface looks like a Dystopian Wars clone that they did another kickstarter for(2 years ago and only started shipping this year I guess?), and I guess they're almost solely surviving off of battletech(for which they have the license but I don't believe they actually own it, I think it's Topps still).

 

[robobobo]

I've played Shadowrun since first edition and agree that 4e is the best, rules-wise. You can validly argue that elves plugging keyboards into their heads is a cooler setting that a more realistic wireless future, if that's a dealbreaker then 3e is the tops. 5th and 6th are both hot garbage and should be avoided at all costs. They did make a retro book for 4e to bring back the wired setting, but it was on the tail end when CGL had already started fucking it all up, so I can't vouch for its quality.

 

[Judge Dredd]

That sounds like the Whitehack/Blackhack

It wasn't that. It had some generic name like "Shadow of the Damned" or something like that. I found it. Shadow of the Demon Lord. It's supposedly really good and paired well with Barrowmaze, but it fell out of favour and I never heard of it again.

Though I don't like the x-hack naming of games. Whitehack, Blackhack, Mechhack, Hackhack

I suggested ditching the magic system and fantasy races, is because it seemed like that would have been counter to what they wanted to be able to do in a game, or at least the setting they were implying.

I can get into this later. But in short, the magic overshadowed the cool cyberpunk stuff, and instead of trying to twist and house rule Shadowrun, I figured I could just play Cyberpunk, Interface Zero, or any other well liked game. Of course, people don't want to play those specifically because they want Shadowrun stuff like Shamen and PhysAds, ie. The exact kind of thing I don't like in my cyberpunk.

 

[p1138]

I can get into this later. But in short, the magic overshadowed the cool cyberpunk stuff, and instead of trying to twist and house rule Shadowrun, I figured I could just play Cyberpunk, Interface Zero, or any other well liked game. Of course, people don't want to play those specifically because they want Shadowrun stuff like Shamen and PhysAds, ie. The exact kind of thing I don't like in my cyberpunk.

"I want to put together a 90's james bond style game, it'll be using shadowrun for the rules but obviously won't have the magic or fantasy races because they wouldn't nmake sense. you guys in or out?" If enough people say they're in, then run a game. The fact that they know shadowrun should make it easier than having to learn an entirely different system just to avoid the magic part that you're not interested in, and since you're running it you get to say what's included and what isn't. It's no different than specifying races, spell levels, magic item rarity, etc. when setting up a game like D&D if you want a "low magic" game vs something "high fantasy".

 

[The greater a'tuin]

A Discworld RPG has been fully funded. Though someone like me should be excited, the last Discworld thing made after Terry's death was hot garbage, so I approach with trepidation.

 

[Tom Bombodildo]

5th and 6th are both hot garbage and should be avoided at all costs.

The only Shadowrun I've ever played was 5e. My group figured out how easy it was to abuse drugs pretty quickly but otherwise, we thought it was solid. A couple years ago, I looked at 3E, 4E, and 5E (6E was so obviously bad, I didn't even check) to decide on an edition for a potential upcoming game, which never eventuated. 5E still seemed like the best to me. Can you explain a little bit what you feel 5E did wrong and what 4E has that 5E doesn't?

 

[Adamska]

The only Shadowrun I've ever played was 5e. My group figured out how easy it was to abuse drugs pretty quickly but otherwise, we thought it was solid. A couple years ago, I looked at 3E, 4E, and 5E (6E was so obviously bad, I didn't even check) to decide on an edition for a potential upcoming game, which never eventuated. 5E still seemed like the best to me. Can you explain a little bit what you feel 5E did wrong and what 4E has that 5E doesn't?

4e is a better designed book that has you flipping through the pages a good deal less often than the newer model. It still references stuff that you have to backtrack to when making a character, but it's less often due to where items are placed in it. It also is noticeably more streamlined and easier to get through quickly, making it newbie friendly.

It also is the edition that seriously brought along Technomancers in full. Those guys have a pretty sweet niche in the game, since they are as a whole worse at hacking and net shit than deckers or riggers are, but can compile and create niche programs on the fly, making them much more flexible. They also have sprites, which operates on Spirit logic and that's a bit broken but also fine.

I found it's the edition that came closest to handling the jank that sometimes happened when you wanted to do a lot of net shit, since the wireless nodes and streamlining made Technomancers gel better in a segment rather than needing their own mini sessions.

5e I like to a degree, but it's pretty borked as a book design wise since it's trying to lay down a lot of slop at once.

 

[LovisXVI]

The only Shadowrun I've ever played was 5e. My group figured out how easy it was to abuse drugs pretty quickly but otherwise, we thought it was solid. A couple years ago, I looked at 3E, 4E, and 5E (6E was so obviously bad, I didn't even check) to decide on an edition for a potential upcoming game, which never eventuated. 5E still seemed like the best to me. Can you explain a little bit what you feel 5E did wrong and what 4E has that 5E doesn't?

4 and 5 are very similar, but 4 lacks limits and is more or less designed that way, so weapon damage is much lower as you are expected to make it up in raw hits. Whether you like that or not is a matter of personal taste. I for one prefer limits.

 

[Ghostse]

A Discworld RPG has been fully funded. Though someone like me should be excited, the last Discworld thing made after Terry's death was hot garbage, so I approach with trepidation.
View attachment 7552952

Oh boy I can't wait to see how they rape Pratchett's corpse this time

 

[Halbschwanz]

Do you guys have any recommendations for simpler engines that are better?

-D&D B/X or Knave is good for lightweight classic elfgame shit. Knave can at times feel borderline boardgame for how light the rules are but I've found new players will pick it up pretty quickly. Shadow of the Demon Lord also works well for this purpose if you don't mind edgier fantasy and poop jokes.

-West End Games' D6 System variants are pretty intuitive if sometimes kludgy on fine details. I'd keep a close eye on anyone using the default magic systems as they can get really stupid if unsupervised.

-I know most of the community around White Wolf games is 40 year old fat goths and sex weirdos crustily guarding WoD, but honestly some of their alternate systems like Aberrant (grounded take on superhero world without being Amazon The Boys tier tard screed) or Adventure! (1920s pulp with occultists and mad scientists and many not-Indiana Jones clones) are pretty easy to pick up.

 

[robobobo]

The only Shadowrun I've ever played was 5e. My group figured out how easy it was to abuse drugs pretty quickly but otherwise, we thought it was solid. A couple years ago, I looked at 3E, 4E, and 5E (6E was so obviously bad, I didn't even check) to decide on an edition for a potential upcoming game, which never eventuated. 5E still seemed like the best to me. Can you explain a little bit what you feel 5E did wrong and what 4E has that 5E doesn't?

I can! 5e did a couple of crucial things wrong. First and foremost was the limit mechanic. While I get the motivation behind it, simulating that you can't do amazing things with garbage equipment, in actual practice it just added a needless extra layer to action resolution. People complained about older editions having rolls of handfuls of dice, but it evened out given that NPCs were on a level playing field and could throw just as many dice as a player.

Matrix stuff is also considerably worse in 5th. That whole 'you're being traced the instant you log in and will get brain nuked in 60 seconds' setup is pointless and arbitrarily restrictive on one of the pillars of the system. 4e had a much more straightforward process for doing computer shenanigans.

5e's character creation also made being an adept-wizard basically free, so there was no reason not to be one.

 

[Head Muggle]

A Discworld RPG has been fully funded. Though someone like me should be excited, the last Discworld thing made after Terry's death was hot garbage, so I approach with trepidation.
View attachment 7552952

I looked at the kickstarter and this is the person who manages it lmao

 

[Tom Bombodildo]

5e's character creation also made being an adept-wizard basically free, so there was no reason not to be one.

Interesting on the first two points; never played any Shadowrun other than 5e, so maybe I'll feel the difference in play (if my group ever does Shadowrun again).
On the magic thing, I thought the primary issue with being an adept-wizard was that you couldn't install cyberware, at least not without damaging your magic capabilities. Am I misremembering that or is being an adept just so good there's no need for cyberware?

 

[Rend Me Asunder]

Shadow of the Demon Lord is basically an extremely edgy 5e rewrite, but I think it’s very good overall. Haven’t played the follow up Weird Wizard game for several reasons. But yes, before someone points this out, SotDL has poopoopeepee magic, and you can just ignore it.

 

[Overly Serious]

I'll point out the reason I suggested ditching the magic system and fantasy races, is because it seemed like that would have been counter to what they wanted to be able to do in a game, or at least the setting they were implying

It wasn't a dig at you. It was just a comment that Shadowrun's magic rules and atmosphere are excellent. Hence my saying it's a shame to lose them.

I can get into this later. But in short, the magic overshadowed the cool cyberpunk stuff, and instead of trying to twist and house rule Shadowrun, I figured I could just play Cyberpunk, Interface Zero, or any other well liked game.

I think it only overshadowed it in some players minds and tables. In terms of rules and game balance it did not. Nor for the most part did I feel that it got too much share of the supplements. A bit more than tech perhaps but some of the major arcs of Shadowrun like the Renraku shutdown were tech focused. But on the whole I'd say all of the metaplot was a nice blend of both.

As to 5e and "limits", most of the fixes were done in response to misunderstandings of the rules or things that 3e grognards had been throwing at 4e for a few years on the forums and finally they no longer had to try and prove themselves right, they could just declare that they were and introduce their fixes. I ran 4e for years. I never had balance problems because the game was never meant to be balanced in the D&D fashion. Offence beats Defence was a generally consistent principle whether that be guns vs. armour or manaballs vs. willpower. Hence Shadowrun was such a beautifully sneaky and back-stabby game. Or as we used to say at my table: "He who shoots first laughs longest".

Another general principle was that Magic is more powerful but tech is more consistent. Not to an extreme degree but a samurai could be firing his SMG and tossing grenades all day long whilst the magician's head explodes after a while. Which is another example of the 5e issues. The 3e fanatics had been yelling so much on the forums whilst never actually playing 4e that they'd convinced themselves of all sorts of things about how "broken" magic was. Or Edge. I remember some dude who would rant over and over in every thread about his "broken" build that would show how 4e was broken because of the Edge rules. Despite his build being laughably bad and would have died rapidly at my table compared to the normal characters.

Hate. I really can't overstate it. It was actual genuine from the bowels hate. Because someone talk away their "Decking" and said "you know, everyone has a mobile phone in their pocket but our Sci-Fi future says you have to have a cable tying you to a desk to do a video call. Maybe we should change that".

On the magic thing, I thought the primary issue with being an adept-wizard was that you couldn't install cyberware, at least not without damaging your magic capabilities. Am I misremembering that or is being an adept just so good there's no need for cyberware?

Cyberware reduces your Essence score which is what determines your (starting) Magic score. So yes, if you install cyberware you reduce your Magic and can't have as many magical powers / as strong magical powers. But it wasn't uncommon to do it anyway because you could get some nice things with cyberware. The concept of a Physical Adept who gave up a little bit of his soul for power was a very Shadowrun thing.

In general, Physical Adepts could be very capable but in keeping with the general downside of magic, they weren't good generalists. At least not compared to your typical Samurai.

 

[East_Clintwood]

Of course the grognards from 3rd edition hated 4th with an incandescent resentment. And when Catalyst Game Labs screwed over the people who'd created 4th and were facing mass walkouts of their freelancers, the grognards leapt in willing to work for head pats just for the chance to change the term Hacking back to "Decking" and to say that WiFi no longer existed. The world might have moved on from the 80s, but they'd do anything to keep Shadowrun there.

I'll admit I'm one of the people who stylistically prefer ye-olde cyberdeck plugged into the head style matrix, and I had problems with a lot of the wireless bonuses and shit they brought in in 4th. However I never got those people who were so absolutely assmad about it they essentially jannied 5th edition for free. More importantly I don't get how those retards, in their fervor to undo 4th and the wireless matrix, were happy to absolutely shit on the matrix in a different, and IMO much worse, way. Ruleswise the 5E matrix is meh, and it's probably the area my group houserules the heaviest, but lorewise it is the most pants shittingly retarded thing I've read, potentially ever.

 

[Overly Serious]

I'll admit I'm one of the people who stylistically prefer ye-olde cyberdeck plugged into the head style matrix, and I had problems with a lot of the wireless bonuses and shit they brought in in 4th. However I never got those people who were so absolutely assmad about it they essentially jannied 5th edition for free.

See that's fine. We have different tastes but I can break bread with you. And if you had been someone putting together 5th and trying to revert things back to the 80's William Gibson type of thing, you'd have probably done it in a way that at least made more sense. The lore stuff to justify it was just... pathetic.

Personally I like to move forward. Shadowrun became its own thing and even from the start it was outgrowing any Cyberpunk origins with its energy and imagination. Whilst my game was more mirror shades than pink mohawks, and I wasn't shy of playing up the corporate dystopian aspects which featured quite a lot in my game, I never felt the misery of the cyberpunk aesthetic. Shadowrun was just too much fun. You got to fight a dragon, with a machine-gun. Everything about the setting was alive!

I remember arguing with people about the new Matrix stuff in 4e. They were all "why would you have your data accessible from outside the company office? That's stupid. Why would you be able to camera wirelessly? That's stupid. Why does hacking this node here give you access to another system elsewhere? They're separate systems, you have to re-hack each one."

I'd try to explain how it made sense but just as they hated a hacker being able to work with a small commlink instead of a keyboard sized "deck" or AR being a thing instead of someone being slumped unconscious in a corner, they were trying to find ways to make it silly. Now we have Cloud Computing everywhere, companies routinely expose their data for home workers or run VPNs between different offices to create a seamless single network in which physical location is meaningless. And most authentication is done by servers external to the one you're actually accessing.

I can get where you're coming from intellectually. There are genre conceits I indulge in for the genres I enjoy. So I have no beef with someone who wants to recreate that old school feel. Frankly, enjoy yourself. I'd even play it myself. My issue was the level to which these people took it. And CGL really screwed over the 4th edition writers who had done an incredible job. For other fans to be celebrating that and using it as an opportunity to leap in and revert stuff, well it rankled.