- Joined
- Apr 17, 2023
Christian theology thread for Christians - Deus homo factus est naturam erante, mundus renovatus est a Christo regnante
- Thread starter Sissyagamben
- Start date
-
🐕 I am attempting to get the site runnning as fast as possible. If you are experiencing slow page load times, please report it.
- Joined
- Dec 20, 2019
Church Lurker
kiwifarms.net
- Joined
- Jun 19, 2023
Quick follow up to this post: The fist two Sundays went well, but the following weeks didn't go as well, I start off strong and then gave up in the evening. Today went better, though I gave into the sin of lust, but please pray fro me that my continuation of this discipline continues to grow.
- Joined
- Apr 17, 2023
WTF they said they wouldn't publish my real name
Classic. Set-backs are part of the journey. Imagine how valuable your soul must be for Satan to tirelessly pursue it, and the King to lay down his own life for it. If the situation was hopeless, the devil would have given up by now.
Go to confession, and take it one step at a time. One Sunday a month in church is better than zero. Then, when you can do two, do that. And keep going until you can keep a steady pace. Soon you will be waiting impatiently for the next Sunday to come just so you can go to church.
Derrick
kiwifarms.net
- Joined
- Mar 15, 2024
I'm not sure I agree with the sentiment. This is, after all, a thread for theology, if we all agreed to not question anything about the others beliefs it might get rather dull.
On the other hand I understand where you're coming from. People's Religions are rather sacred to them, and as I noted you can forcefully justify or rectify any belief you want with the Bible if you try hard enough, hence why we have a million and one denominations (and apologetic sites for them all). As such trying to change someone's view on a theological issue is rather futile.
At the same point in time I personally find it important to have these kind of talks because it allows me to challenge check my blind spots on my own beliefs, and to modify them when it seems I am in error.
- Joined
- Jul 7, 2022
I've heard some interpretations of the Fall in Genesis 3 that I am not sure I swallow. In my Southern Baptist upbringing, we were taught the Fall of course but we didn't dig super deep into it.
The things I was taught that I have discarded or am currently wrestling with, in addition to positions I have recently been exposed to:
(1) Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the Lord God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God really say, ‘You must not eat from any tree in the garden’?”
(2) The woman said to the serpent, “We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, (3) but God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.’”
(4) “You will not certainly die,” the serpent said to the woman. (5) “For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”
(6) When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. (7) Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves.
(
Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the Lord God as he was walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and they hid from the Lord God among the trees of the garden. (9) But the Lord God called to the man, “Where are you?”
(10) He answered, “I heard you in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid.”
(11) And he said, “Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree that I commanded you not to eat from?”
(12) The man said, “The woman you put here with me—she gave me some fruit from the tree, and I ate it.”
(13) Then the Lord God said to the woman, “What is this you have done?”
The woman said, “The serpent deceived me, and I ate.”
(14) So the Lord God said to the serpent, “Because you have done this,
“Cursed are you above all livestock
and all wild animals!
You will crawl on your belly
and you will eat dust
all the days of your life.
(15) And I will put enmity
between you and the woman,
and between your offspring and hers;
he will crush your head,
and you will strike his heel.”
(16) To the woman he said,
“I will make your pains in childbearing very severe;
with painful labor you will give birth to children.
Your desire will be for your husband,
and he will rule over you.”
(17) To Adam he said, “Because you listened to your wife and ate fruit from the tree about which I commanded you, ‘You must not eat from it,’
“Cursed is the ground because of you;
through painful toil you will eat food from it
all the days of your life.
(1 It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
and you will eat the plants of the field.
(19) By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken;
for dust you are
and to dust you will return.”
(20) Adam named his wife Eve, because she would become the mother of all the living.
(2) The woman said to the serpent, “We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, (3) but God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.’”
(4) “You will not certainly die,” the serpent said to the woman. (5) “For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”
(6) When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. (7) Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves.
(
Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the Lord God as he was walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and they hid from the Lord God among the trees of the garden. (9) But the Lord God called to the man, “Where are you?”(10) He answered, “I heard you in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid.”
(11) And he said, “Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree that I commanded you not to eat from?”
(12) The man said, “The woman you put here with me—she gave me some fruit from the tree, and I ate it.”
(13) Then the Lord God said to the woman, “What is this you have done?”
The woman said, “The serpent deceived me, and I ate.”
(14) So the Lord God said to the serpent, “Because you have done this,
“Cursed are you above all livestock
and all wild animals!
You will crawl on your belly
and you will eat dust
all the days of your life.
(15) And I will put enmity
between you and the woman,
and between your offspring and hers;
he will crush your head,
and you will strike his heel.”
(16) To the woman he said,
“I will make your pains in childbearing very severe;
with painful labor you will give birth to children.
Your desire will be for your husband,
and he will rule over you.”
(17) To Adam he said, “Because you listened to your wife and ate fruit from the tree about which I commanded you, ‘You must not eat from it,’
“Cursed is the ground because of you;
through painful toil you will eat food from it
all the days of your life.
(1
It will produce thorns and thistles for you,and you will eat the plants of the field.
(19) By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken;
for dust you are
and to dust you will return.”
(20) Adam named his wife Eve, because she would become the mother of all the living.
The things I was taught that I have discarded or am currently wrestling with, in addition to positions I have recently been exposed to:
- That the serpent was a literal snake and the curse is why snakes crawl on their bellies. There are many other animals that crawl on their bellies and weren't in the curse. "The serpent" instead of "a serpent" also implies that it was a specific entity - Satan. But then what does the curse mean when it says he will "crawl on his belly?" That he will be cursed to roam the earth? What does "eating dust" mean?
- That Eve tricked Adam. This is clearly not the case, because Adam was right next to her. Did the serpent also deceive him, and he just blamed Eve? Or did he knowingly let her sin?
- That Adam's sin was listening to his wife. This is just sexism. Adam's sin was following Eve's suggestion to sin, not just listening to her.
- That Eve's deception by the serpent shows women are more prone to being seduced by sin or confused by the enemy; this is used to justify the position that women shouldn't be spiritual teachers/need to be spiritually led by men.
- Was Adam's sin worse than Eve's because he had a personal relationship with God?
- That Adam's punishment is worse than Eve's. I do believe this to be the case; his punishment includes mortality. This is also used to justify the stance that men are wiser than women and hold more responsibility. But couldn't you also say Adam's punishment was worse because he had a personal relationship with God, whereas it doesn't seem like Eve had even spoken to God yet?
- Joined
- Dec 15, 2021
The largest issue with Catholics are the lowering of standards post-WW2 for priests and how poorly catechised the laity is. Political retards then fill in the gaps, the Child abuse scandal made them rife for lawsuits (rightfully and weaponized), and in the US since Coughlin the more active elements that did anything have been under scrutiny from both Rome and Washington.
If you ever want to see how a Western country hamstrings the Faith, look at Canada. I don’t mean Catholics, I mean broadly. Canadian Glowies are the incompetent siblings of Americans and every conspiracy about them has been proven by their ineptitude.
If you ever want to see how a Western country hamstrings the Faith, look at Canada. I don’t mean Catholics, I mean broadly. Canadian Glowies are the incompetent siblings of Americans and every conspiracy about them has been proven by their ineptitude.
marlimar
kiwifarms.net
- Joined
- Apr 14, 2025
We have to first understand that none of this was written down until Moses was told what to write down by God. This same Moses used a snake on a staff to heal the Israelites that were being bitten in the desert, I think that a snake is as close to what existed contemporaneously that could be communicated and understood by folks. The belly crawling may have to do with prostrating being the only posture that can ever be attained.
Satan is mentioned to be called to account in God's presence in the book of Job, where he describes as travelling from north to south and east to west, implying that since he was cast out of heaven, he roams the Earth looking for "dust" to eat. This dust, to me, implies the nature that Adam was created from, the breath of life was the only thing that made Adam special, that Adam had a personal relationship with God. "Eating dust" would in this interpretation mean that Satan devours men, and separates them from God by taking the breath of life from them.
Adam was next to her and heard it from God himself to not eat that tree, Adam wasn't deceived by the "surely you will not perish" part, but his sin was indeed complacency as he himself ate of the apple after her, then proceeded to blame that lady you forced upon me, that I never asked for. Much like Adam and Eve hiding in the garden after they realized they were naked, pretending that literal God didn't know where they were.
This teaches me that men are to be the guardian of not just physical threats, but idea threats to women. This has failed all societies.
Sin is sin, it separates you from God, he can't be in the presence of sin or something like that, which is why Christ had to be fully man as well as fully God. Adam's unique punishment is that he has to toil the fields, Eve's unique punishment is the pains of labor, mortality is a common punishment for both.
- Joined
- Jul 7, 2022
I'm not really understanding this. The Israelites would have been familiar with other yucky or dangerous creatures, such as lions, scorpions, etc. Does "serpent" in this case just mean "deceiver?"
There are thousands of years of recorded human history where men have propagated degeneracy, heresy, and other such harmful ideas before women held any sort of sway over society. If anything, Adam blaming Eve foreshadowed how men would blame women for their failings for the rest of human history.
Women toil in fields plenty. "...until you return to the ground, since from it you were taken; for dust you are and to dust you will return" is specifically talking about mortality and is only addressed to Adam. Eve's curse is that childbirth will be painful and that her husband will rule over her (another thing to unpack, but that's for another day). Sure women die in childbirth sometimes, but death isn't mentioned at all until God is addressing Adam.
Very insightful.
marlimar
kiwifarms.net
- Joined
- Apr 14, 2025
Open for discussion, I doubt the "snakes" they were dying from bite of in the desert were metaphorical, nor was the snake Moses rose on a staff for the Israelites to lay their eyes on to be healed. The serpent in the Garden story is promised to have it's head crushed by the heel of the woman, is that a metaphor or literal? I always look to Christ and the Jewish prophecies he fulfilled: "They look upon that which they have pierced", many think this refers to the spear that produced blood and water from Jesus' side, but they nailed him to the cross, which would involve piercing already. It's an unknowable mystery what exactly the serpent in the Garden was, mysteries are reserved for God, we just have the revelations that he has revealed to us through his words in the book. The fact that the book is translated and interpreted so many different ways may lead us to miss the forest for the trees, distracting us from the life, death and resurrection of Christ Jesus, without whom there is no hope.
I agree and it persists today, even my own heart wants women to be subservient to men.
Satan says to Eve, "surely you will not perish" so she was aware that God told her that she can't eat from that tree, and the consequences would be death. The chronology of events is something that is so curious to me but is ultimately meaningless.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2022
The Wisdom of Bl. Fulton Sheen
Day 195 - Many souls fail to find God because they want a religion which will remake society without remaking themselves.
Day 195 - Many souls fail to find God because they want a religion which will remake society without remaking themselves.
- Joined
- Nov 14, 2018
This is what I was taught, were other folks here taught some other version of the beginnings of Western Civ? 
___
Hilaire Belloc's "The Catholic Church and History" argues that the Catholic Church is the central force in the developement of Western civilization. He posits that the Church not only preserved and transformed Roman civilization but also acted as a crucial civilizing influence on the Germanic tribes, shaping the foundations of modern Europe. Belloc emphasizes the Church's role in fostering unity, order, and culture during and after the decline of the Roman Empire.
___
Hilaire Belloc's "The Catholic Church and History" argues that the Catholic Church is the central force in the developement of Western civilization. He posits that the Church not only preserved and transformed Roman civilization but also acted as a crucial civilizing influence on the Germanic tribes, shaping the foundations of modern Europe. Belloc emphasizes the Church's role in fostering unity, order, and culture during and after the decline of the Roman Empire.
- Joined
- Feb 4, 2018
Shinto has an unbroken chain of Emperors going back millenia, Orthodox Christianity is the exact same age as Catholicism, and most of the rest have leadership positions that have been filled for hundreds or even 1000+ of years.
The French Wars of Religion killed 2-4 million people alone and the Thirty Years War killed half of Germany. The Treaty of Westphalia ending all of this created peace by allowing secular leaders to decide the religions of their states. The church only really tried to reform itself in the face of a crisis that threatened its very existence.
The point is that this was not just bad Popes. The institution was utterly corrupt. Hell, that is even a common theme throughout the entirety of the Canterbury Tales from centuries before Luther.
I was referring to the Hussite Wars and Albigensian Crusade that killed millions of Christians. If Protestantism did not have the protection of secular German princes it probably would have also just been genocided out of existence. Catholicism has historically responded to challenges with brute force and owes its long existence to that.
Islam is a different religion, but the Crusaders killing everybody in Jerusalem (including the Christians) everytime they retook the city is hardly defensible. Saladin was a Muslim and he did not do that.
The church funds a lot of hospitals & charity in North America & Europe. In some European countries the church is a source for social reform that helps poor people. However, most of these efforts are in the west and likely influenced by the larger protestant culture of practical charity around them.
At its core the church does very little. In Latin America their inaction on poverty has contributed to a massive explosion in prosperity gospel grifter churches that will probably overtake Catholicism in LATAM in a few decades. I think Mother Teresa's hospitals highlights this best. They did not treat people. They just gave patients a bed to lay on as they died of their preventable infections. The church viewed this as a holy act worth giving sainthood for. Performative charity for the goal of appearing righteous without putting in the effort to actually make a better world.
- Joined
- Jul 18, 2017
The Genesis story is a bit complicated because its actually two stories in one. You have the creation story and then you have the Adam and Eve story. Both are derived from different texts and oral traditions, and understanding them requires less then literal interpretation.
The English translation for this part really sucks ass, but the Serpent IS Satan. The actual phrase is "Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the Lord God had made". The text doesn't say that the Serpent IS a wild animal. More that he was more intelligent then them. Up to this point however Adam and Eve had not encountered other entities beyond God himself and the Animals. So there is no context for a fallen Angel like Lucifer.
"Crawl on his Belly" is pejorative. In traditional societies, you bow and scrape before superiors when being humbled as a crime. Saying the Devil will "Crawl on His Belly" is allegorical to this, and is done to illustrate the fallen nature of Satan. As for "Eating Dust", in agriculture societies you either have a productive farm and food, or you don't and you eat dirt. Like Haitians incidentally. This statement means that the Devil and his Works will lead to bad outcomes like famine.
Adam just blamed Eve, which God did not appreciate. Though Eve got the short end of the stick because she sinned first.
No, Adam's Sin was eating the fruit and then trying to deflect blame from himself. Eve's sin was tempting him with the fruit. Culpability for different reasons, but to God all sins are equally bad. There is no such thing as context or mitigating factors.
Now this is an entirely different ball of wax and is not necessarily based on scripture. Its more that women CANNOT spiritually lead men. This is more a product of social function and necessity. Women can absolutely be spiritual examples and participate in spirituality. But when it comes to instructing and commanding men as is the role of a Priest, its not possible simply due to how the Genders work in biological function and abstract social organization.
All sins are equally bad. Any sin leads to eternal damnation due to the absolute nature of Gods justice. It is why we need the intercession of Jesus Christ to take the Punishment on himself so that we can be able to assume the Grace of God's absolute mercy. (John 3:16)
I would not say that his punishment was greater or lesser, it was just different.
Trimalchio
kiwifarms.net
- Joined
- Oct 16, 2024
Honestly, I wonder if this is a case of Mother Teresa "going native" rather than a genuine reflection of Catholic moral teaching, since this kind of attitude is not uncommon among people who believe strongly in karmic retribution. I've seen hospices for animals run by Jains that are similarly apathetic. Their reasoning is that suffering "exhausts" bad karma, and it's better to let this process play out than try to prevent the inevitable. I don't mean that Teresa believed in karma herself, but she may have been influenced by people who did.
Last edited:
Derrick
kiwifarms.net
- Joined
- Mar 15, 2024
Depending on what country you're referring to this is already the case (assuming you're talking about Catholic v. Protestant)
Protestants already outnumber Catholics in Honduras.
While it's not my place to weigh in on Catholic Church matters it feels a lot of change has come in the last few years. I hope the church can hold out a few more decades, Christianity in growing in the third world and rapidly declining, if they can hold out a bit more longer there will be very few "liberal Catholics" left to shape Church doctrine with the Robert Sara's of the world left to call the shots.
:Angry Young Earth Creationist noises intensify:
You may be interesting in this video, it's the largest protestant denomination in Canada. One of their "pastors" is an Atheist. One of their Moderators was an open Homosexual, another was a non-Trinitarian.
You see this a lot in Northern Europe with their "Protestant Churches". For example in the largest protestant denomination Netherlands , The Protestant Church of the Netherlands, 1/6 clergy members were Atheist or Agnostic. That shouldn't be too surprising, after all only 27% of self identified Dutch Catholics were Theists, but at least with the Catholic Churches you have a larger authority in the Vatican who can step in and nix any of their nonsense, although if the German Bishops are anything to go by the Vatican's willingness to act seems a bit low.
What can the Church do to fix this problem? Hard to say, in many of these places the local churches have been infiltrated and taken over by the opposing ideology. It probably best to let them continue their membership decline into irrelevancy and then we can have actual Christian groups move in and set up Churches to win over the local Christians. If current trends hold up in 40 years these groups should be nonexistent and all you'll have an even mix of Atheists, Muslims (from the Middle East/North Africa), Catholics (thanks to Polish migration), Orthodox (more eastern European migration), and Protestants from Sub-Saharan African.
- Joined
- Apr 17, 2023
John MacArthur has passed away.
Lux aeterna luceat eis, Domine, cum sanctis tuis in aeternum, quia pius es.
Requiem aeternam dona eis, Domine, et lux perpetua luceat eis.
Lux aeterna luceat eis, Domine, cum sanctis tuis in aeternum, quia pius es.
Requiem aeternam dona eis, Domine, et lux perpetua luceat eis.
- Joined
- Jul 24, 2024
Hard to understate his influence on the modern church. Keller, Macarthur and Piper feel like the three titans of faithful American evangelicalism over the last couple of decades (some other prominent figures as well, but their influence has been outsized). Two of those three now rest with their Father.
BIG SHOT Autos
kiwifarms.net
- Joined
- Jan 24, 2023
I'm struggling with this point as well, especially considering that one of things that made me sympathetic towards Christianity was the fact that Joan of Arc has been canonized as a saint. Yeah, I know she wasn't a spiritual leader specifically, but still.