Christian theology thread for Christians - Deus homo factus est naturam erante, mundus renovatus est a Christo regnante

[Preacher ✝]

The Wisdom of Bl. Fulton Sheen

Day 197 - Most commit the same mistake with God that they do with their friends: they do all the talking.

 

[the big new poster]

Does Christianity teach ethnocentrism i.e. looking after and caring for your people before other ethnic groups?
It seems pretty clear to me it does like in Matthew 15:21-28 because we see Jesus say that the reason he looks after the Jews before looking after foreigners is the same reason a father should feed his children first before giving the left-overs to non-family members like the dog. So following Jesus' example we should also feed our children first before giving the leftovers to non-family members and look after our ethnic group first before giving charity to foreigners.
Old Christian scholars like Aquinas and Church Fathers also supported this , even reformers like John Calvin , but it seems like almost every major modern Christian group claims the opposite.
When did this happen? Is it a post-WW2 thing or did modernity cause this change earlier?

 

[Derrick]

Does Christianity teach ethnocentrism i.e. looking after and caring for your people before other ethnic groups?

No, absolutely not.

"There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus." - Galatians 3:28. Here you can see ethnocentric racism strictly condemned, all Christians are one. Racism is as heretical as denying the virgin birth.

It seems pretty clear to me it does like in Matthew 15:21-28

Look at how that story ends. Jesus highlights the ethnocentrism of his day before rewarding the woman for her faith, it was a teaching moment to show how we should treat others (even people who look different).

 

[the big new poster]

"There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus." - Galatians 3:28

Seems to me like this is saying that all sexes and races can be saved by Jesus. I don't see how this is saying that it is forbidden to care for your nation/ethnos/people before foreigners. Church fathers and Christian scholars from the first 1900 years of christianity don't seem to have taken this view. Are you sure you're following authentic Christianity and not modern motivated reasoning attempting to twist Christianity to fit liberalism?

Look at how that story ends.

The story ends with Jesus praising and affirming the Canaanite woman's extension of Jesus's reasoning that a man should care for his people first before foreigners for the same reason a man should feed his children first. Jesus says that what the woman said is a statement of great faith.

 

[Derrick]

Seems to me like this is saying that all sexes and races can be saved by Jesus. I don't see how this is saying that it is forbidden to care for your nation/ethnos/people before foreigners.

"you are all one in Christ Jesus" -the ending of that sentence. You are all the same, regarding of ethnicity or sex you are all equal in Jesus.

You know your right that your idea isn't new, as a matter of fact the early Jewish Christians (such as Peter) had a similar idea that, because they were Jewish (part of the old covenant) they were uniquely superior to the gentile Christians, and that they should not eat with the uncircumcised, that is they should only eat with their people, that's what inspired that strong rebuke I sent from Paul in Galatians (you can read more about it by reading the full letter). Paul understood, Racism was antithetical to Christian beliefs, once you are a Christian you are one, trying to say 'I'm going to stick with my people" is incredibly contrary to that idea. After Paul's rebuke attempt at ethnocentric Christianity that excluded the gentiles died out. And even Peter came around to accepting all Christians as equal (see Acts 11 where he eats with the uncircumcised)

Furthermore Racism and Hatred are antithetical to Christian belief, "Whoever claims to love God yet hates a brother or sister is a liar".- 1st John 4:20.
"For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek"- Romans 10:12

Church fathers and Christian scholars from the first 1900 years of christianity don't seem to have taken this view.

Christians were instrumental throughout history in destroying racist institutions (such as the Trans-Atlantic Slave trade), if you'd like to learn more about that I would encourage you to read about John Newton who, after converting to Christianity, left the slave trade behind to become an abolitionist activist.

During the 1800s when the theory of Evolution was being developed Atheist began to insist Black People were subhumans who were some "missing link", and as horrible as it was they put Native Africans in cages at the zoo and even in some places instituted eugenics centers, Christian activist had to step in to get these racist institution shut down.

Are you sure you're following authentic Christianity and not modern motivated reasoning attempting to twist Christianity to fit liberalism?

Christianity is neither Liberal or Conservative. For example the Bible very strongly calls out Homosexual behavior and so do I, it also calls out Racism (Galatians 3:28 ) and so do I.

Instead of thinking about "Is this Liberal or Conservative," just think about, "What does the Bible say about this". If you think something is "Christian" because the conservative party endorses it or "anti-Christian" because the liberal party endorses it you aren't looking into things very hard.

The story ends with Jesus praising and affirming the Canaanite woman's extension of Jesus's reasoning that a man should care for his people first before foreigners for the same reason a man should feed his children first. Jesus says that what the woman said is a statement of great faith.

Jesus gives her food and rewards her faith, he highlighted the ethnic tension between the two groups by initially ignoring her requests before completely shattered it by rewarding her faith.

I encourage you to remember there are no distinctions between different ethnic Christians (Romans 10:12). I'm sorry if I have come across as rude but when I see people taking my Religion and using it to push something rather perverse (be it the LGBT nonsense, or Racial Hatred) it does get me pretty animated. Please I implore you, if you want to be saved you have to move away from your Racism and love all Christians regardless of their ethnic differences (1st John 4:20)

 

[the big new poster]

You are all the same, regarding of ethnicity or sex you are all equal in Jesus.

but what does "equal in Jesus" or " one in Jesus" mean ? Is Paul saying that it is forbidden for a Christian to treat men and women differently in any respect ? No.
So if being "one in Jesus" does not prohibit a Christian from treating men and women differently in certain respects , then being "one in Jesus" also does not prohibit a Christian from treating different nations/ethnic groups/races differently in certain respects.

Furthermore Racism and Hatred are antithetical to Christian belief,

Sure but looking after your nation/people/ethnic group before looking after foreigners is not hatred any more than a father looking after his children before non-family members is hatred.

Christians were instrumental throughout history in destroying racist institutions (such as the Trans-Atlantic Slave trade),

Those were Christians arguing against slavery (which had already been banned in Christendom in 873 A.D. by Pope John VIII.
Though I would be interested in seeing when the earliest Christian scholars, popes, bishops and so on were who claimed that prioritising and looking after your nation or ethnic group first is not allowed in Christianity. From what I've seen so far it seems to have been influenced by the secular, atheist philosophy of liberalism.
Because Early church fathers and Christian scholars like Aquinas and Calvin explicitly said that it is right for people to prioritise and care for their their own people first.
So this seems to be a modern invention/corruption.

Jesus gives her food and rewards her faith

He says that she has great faith in response to her saying agreeing with Jesus' reasoning justifying his ethnocentrism and extending that reasoning by pointing out that even though it's right for a father not to take his children's food and give it to the dog, he may give the leftovers to the dog after feeding his children.
So Jesus is clearly signalling that what she said, which supports Jesus's ethnocentric reasoning, is a statement of great faith. i.e. a statement which agrees with the teaching of the faith of Christianity.

I encourage you to remember there are no distinctions between different ethnic Christians (Romans 10:12).

the full passage makes it clear that this is talking in the context of salvation. It's not saying that Jews and Gentiles are the same thing.
This is further made clear when Jesus distinguishes between Jews and Gentiles. for example Matthew 6:7 he says that gentiles heap up empty phrases. This is a distinction. Elsewhere in the bible God calls the people of Israel a stiff-necked people.

Please I implore you, if you want to be saved you have to move away from your Racism and love all Christians regardless of their ethnic differences (1st John 4:20)

I do love all Christians, and all non-Christians , including enemies.
But loving everyone does not mean that you have to treat everyone the same or that you have the same obligations towards everyone. Loving everyone does not mean loving everyone equally.
For example a mother is not obligated to breastfeed everyone in the world. It's perfectly good and right for her to feed her baby first, then once her baby is fed then she can give charity to other hungry children.
Matthew 15:21-28 and 1 Timothy 5:8 demonstrate this.
So this does not mean that it is forbidden to look after and care for your people your nation your ethnic group first.
Matthew 15:21-28 commands looking after your people first before foreigners and I'm not aware of any verses commanding against this and early Christian scholars had this understanding.

 

[Derrick]

but what does "equal in Jesus" or " one in Jesus" mean

Christ's death broke down the barriers of racial division, "For he himself is our peace, who has made us both [Jews and Gentiles] one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility".- Ephesians 2:13

If we're at the point where, "you are all equal in Jesus," doesn't mean all believers are one in the same then my goodness we're at a place where we can just discount anything we want in the Bible.

At times like this I'm reminded me of the words of an Atheist of all people, Bart Ehrman, who once commented, "You know, you can forcefully reconcile any belief you want with the Bible if you try hard enough," basically if you really want to believe something so bad you can force it into scripture no may how contrary it is. We see this a lot with the LGBT affirming Churches. If you're at a point where your Racism is so ingrained in your that I can show you Bible verses where "you are all one in Christ," and you can still say, "My race good we look after ourselves" I couldn't imagine anything changing your mind at that point, outside of God himself coming down to tell you you're wrong, which incidentally is what happened in the Bible to Peter.

Peter was so ethnocentric, so focused on his "own people" that he refused to heed Paul's warnings. It took God himself coming down and telling him to knock it off. (Acts 10-11) God had to instruct him to go eat non-Kosher food with a gentile, despite Peter's whining, Break Kosher? No way! "Surely not, Lord! Nothing impure or unclean has ever entered my mouth.’" Commune with non-Jews, no way? "You are well aware that it is against our law for a Jew to associate with or visit a Gentile". (10:28 ) for him to realize his ethnocentrism was contrary to God's way and to go eat with the gentiles.

Remember as Paul said when it came to the difference between Jews and Gentiles, "Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with God’s people and also members of his household,".-Ephesians 2:19. We are not strangers, we are not foreigners, we are all Christians who should show each other the same love and respect.

Sure but looking after your nation/people/ethnic group before looking after foreigners is not hatred any more than a father looking after his children before non-family members is hatred.

1 Timothy 5:8 demonstrate this.

"Your household" is not anyone who looks similar to you, or some random man of the same race as you in Timbuktu. Your household are people who live in your house. I don't know if you're a "muh white race" White person or a "we the real jewz" Black person but I assure you, if you're a Christian, you probably have more of your beliefs in common with a typical White Person in Romania (98.7% Christian) or a Black Person in Zambia (95.5% Christian) than you would with a typical White person in the Netherlands (30% Christian) or a Black Person in Burkina-Faso (26.3% Christian).

Matthew 15:21-28 commands looking after your people first before foreigners and I'm not aware of any verses commanding against this and early Christian scholars had this understanding.

If you think Jesus, who had a Canaanite as a disciple btw (Mark 3:18, Matthew 10:4), that not only would he exclude other ethnicity from eating with him but he even commands you to do so I believe you're mistaken. The women asked Jesus if she could eat with him and maybe do something about her demon possessed kid. When he didn't respond they prodded him a bit, she said she'd literally eat crumbs off his table.

He did not say, "Exactly, if you're patient even your people can eat with me".

Or, "That's good, back of the table, lady!"

He said, "Ah yes, great faith!" Not only could she eat with him he even fulfilled her request to take care of her kid.


I ask you to remember the women at the well from John 4. She was a Samaritan and, as the Gospel of John tells us, "Jews do not associate with Samaritans".- John 4:9

Yes who did Jesus first reveal his messiniacship to? Was it another Jew? One of "his people". No he went to another ethnicity, with whom race relations were so poor they did not associate, to reveal his status as messiah to her first.

I'm sure a lot of people on this thread will tell you I am an "Agree to Disagree" sort of fellow. I will go back and forth a few times before saying, "Hey we're making no headway, let's agree to disagree". However I can't do that here, for yoursoul is on the line of this. The Bible tells us you can't hate your brother while still loving God (1st John 4:20). Yes, sending those "other people" to stay in seperate neighborhoods, or attend seperate schools, or seperate waterfountains is hatred. No people who look vaguely similar to you are not your "family". I implore you, if you truely believe the Bible is the word of God, and that Jesus died for your sins, and aren't just trying to find a Religion that accepts your racism please turn away from the racial prejudge and back towards love for your fellow Christian (I would say for everyone but I think just getting you to treat all Christians the same regardless of race would be a good start).

 

[marlimar]

Elsewhere in the bible God calls the people of Israel a stiff-necked big-nosed people.

You can interpret the bible to have it read the way you want it to read, but God gave the command to Joshua to keep and study what Moses had written down concerning the law, as it would make their path straighter. Are you following the two commands that Christ gave to us to follow in order for him to call us his friend? Loving God with your whole heart, soul, body and mind; Loving your neighbor more than yourself. You can give semantical arguments about what qualifies as a neighbor, but it's meaning is clear to me (All Christians are your neighbors, God's kingdom has many rooms).

 

[Marchesa of the Vast]

If we're at the point where, "you are all equal in Jesus," doesn't mean all believers are one in the same then my goodness we're at a place where we can just discount anything we want in the Bible.

That kind of reading of the text gets you into the territory of abrogating your responsibilities to your own family because "we're all one in Christ so what's the difference?" That's what it means to take care of those close to you first. Like this is actual madness. Equality does not mean Christians are interchangeable and indistinguishable shells.

How does someone reach this conclusion? Being one in Christ doesn't mean everyone is identical. There's no problem in properly distinguishing that there are differences between men and women. That's apparently not controversial. That different cultures among Christians even exist? ANATHEMA! You appear to be falling into the leftist thought trap of "you say those are different from those others and so you must be saying that one is greater than the other!" That's you imputing your jump to hatred based on race onto anyone else who recognizes that people are different. An Ethiopian is not an Guatemalan. That is not a value judgement of individual worth. You would impute hatred onto people who are caring for those who they have been given to be in community with. It's absolutely an insane way of thinking and requires putting blinders on and lying to yourself about how much diversity there is in humanity.

but I assure you, if you're a Christian, you probably have more of your beliefs in common with a typical White Person in Romania (98.7% Christian) or a Black Person in Zambia (95.5% Christian) than you would with a typical White person in the Netherlands (30% Christian) or a Black Person in Burkina-Faso (26.3% Christian).

This is just such an absurd lie to tell yourself. As if the only thing that forms a person whether or not they are Baptized and believe in Christ. Just completely hand waving away how much culture, ethnicity, language, and history influence the expression of Christianity they possess. This kind of thinking would lead you to believe a randomly sampled Haitian (+85% Christian) would have more culturally, socially, and philosophically in common with a randomly sampled Pole than that Pole would with a randomly sampled Dutch person.

Also, you keep imputing the dreaded RACISMUS onto Peter but he was concerned about ritual cleanness not about ZE JEWISH SUPREMASEE in Acts 10. Even the rebuke in Galatians appears to be not about ZE ETHNEEK SUPRIMACHEE but that he was a coward afraid to offend the Judaizers who had come from Jerusalem.

You appear to have this bizarre fixation that being cognizant of human diversity means you rejecting that Christ saves all and is ZE HOAREEBULL RACISMUS!

Loving your neighbor more than yourself.

I'd love to know what version of Mark 12:31 you're using because it's not in any Bible.

 

[Mad_Dog]

Does Christianity teach ethnocentrism i.e. looking after and caring for your people before other ethnic groups?
It seems pretty clear to me it does like in Matthew 15:21-28 because we see Jesus say that the reason he looks after the Jews before looking after foreigners is the same reason a father should feed his children first before giving the left-overs to non-family members like the dog. So following Jesus' example we should also feed our children first before giving the leftovers to non-family members and look after our ethnic group first before giving charity to foreigners.
Old Christian scholars like Aquinas and Church Fathers also supported this , even reformers like John Calvin , but it seems like almost every major modern Christian group claims the opposite.
When did this happen? Is it a post-WW2 thing or did modernity cause this change earlier?

"But if anyone does not provide for his own, and especially for those of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever." 1 Timothy 5:8

 

[Derrick]

take care of those close to you first.

"Take care of those closest to you" and "take care of your ethnicity" are two different things. I probably know a whole lot more about the African-American I work with than I do a White person in Delaware I've never met before.

That kind of reading of the text gets you into the territory of abrogating your responsibilities to your own family because "we're all one in Christ so what's the difference?"

Also, you keep imputing the dreaded RACISMUS onto Peter but he was concerned about ritual cleanness not about ZE JEWISH SUPREMASEE in Acts 10. Even the rebuke in Galatians appears to be not about ZE ETHNEEK SUPRIMACHEE but that he was a coward afraid to offend the Judaizers who had come from Jerusalem.

You appear to have this bizarre fixation that being cognizant of human diversity means you rejecting that Christ saves all and is ZE HOAREEBULL RACISMUS!

I think it's important to reiterate what that one Atheist said, "You can forcefully reconcile anything you want with the Bible if you try hard enough". By claiming, "mistranslated" or "allegory" or "metaphor" you can pretty much justify anything, look at Homosexuals who continue to justify their behavior in the face of Corinthians, Romans, Matthew, Leviticus, and Deuteronomy. You can hand wave away Acts 10, Galatians 3:28, Romans 10:12, Colossians 3:11, the entirety of Ephesians chapter 2 (where, after saying Gentiles and Jews in Christ are now one Paul claims "there are no more foreigners" and that you they are "fellow citizens with God's people").

The problem is, the more things you hand wave away the clearer it should be that you are on the wrong track.

"Ethnocentrism" isn't just an untested theory. I can think of some governments both past and present who have put these ideas, this idea of "putting our people first" into practice. Today in Zimbabwe the Black majority government strips land from their White minority. In Jim Crow America Black Americas were disenfranchised by their own government. In China their ethnic minority the Uyghers are put into "reeducation camps", in Nazi Germany, well I don't think I need to get into what happened there.

The point is these are states which have pursued some form of "Ethnocentrism" and, as you can see, the results were hardly what you would call Christian. Human nature is towards tribalism, our calling as followers of Jesus is to ignore this tendency towards Hate and exclusion (I encourage you to read Ephesians 2 to learn more about this).

This is just such an absurd lie to tell yourself. As if the only thing that forms a person whether or not they are Baptized and believe in Christ. Just completely hand waving away how much culture, ethnicity, language, and history influence the expression of Christianity they possess. This kind of thinking would lead you to believe a randomly sampled Haitian (+85% Christian) would have more culturally, socially, and philosophically in common with a randomly sampled Pole than that Pole would with a randomly sampled Dutch person.

You're defiantly right that I am simplifying things quite a bit, there are obviously some cultural and linguistic differences between different Ethnic Group. Though I do think a Dutch person would have a better shot of understanding a Haitian than a Pole (there are probably more people in the Netherlands who can speak French rather than Polish).

But to get to my main point, I wasn't sure if I was talking to a Black or White Nationalist (although I can probably guess) but the point was more to highlight how there are both Black and White countries filled with Christians and Black and White countries where we are few in numbers. We can find people of all persuasions who are fellow believers in Christ. This should be surprising as Christ did command us to make disciples of all the nations. (Matthew 28:19-20) Christ demands we set our sights on him, not any sort of tribialist nonsense. Remember Jesus chose a Samaritan to reveal his messianicship to (even before he revealed it to 'his people') despite John 4:9 claiming the two groups had racial tensions so severe they don't associate.

If I'm pushing this quite hard I apologize, but it is really important, perhaps even a matter of salvation. The Bible tells us, "Whoever claims to love God yet hates a brother or sister is a liar". You can say, "It's not hate I just think we should be putting 'our people first'", but I struggle to see how one could possibly see exclusion person solely on the basis of skin color or ethnic background (as Ethnocentrists push for) as "an act of love" towards him. Let's not mince our words, it's hatred of that other person, pure and simple, and hatred has no place in the heart of a Christians (1st John 4:20)(Matthew 5:33)

 

[marlimar]

I'd love to know what version of Mark 12:31 you're using because it's not in any Bible.

Christ says to "love your neighbor as I have loved you". Christ loved his disciples more than himself. He also explains what act constitutes the greatest love, laying down one's life for his friends.

 

[Marchesa of the Vast]

Christ says to "love your neighbor as I have loved you". Christ loved his disciples more than himself. He also explains what act constitutes the greatest love, laying down one's life for his friends.

That is not saying that Christ loved us more than he loved Himself. His capacity for love being greater than ours is not the operative part of the instruction. You literally misquoted scripture. That's not my fault.

"Take care of those closest to you" and "take care of your ethnicity" are two different things. I probably know a whole lot more about the African-American I work with than I do a White person in Delaware I've never met before.

I'm just going to come out and say there is no point wasting hours and hours and walls of text just to try and lead you to water. You keep doing this thing where you make false equivalencies and make entire discussions circle the drain because you have this cultish progressive view of social interaction. An actual bit of honesty from you would have you compare your views and beliefs to the white atheist who lives in your neighborhood that you see everyday as compared with the overlap in views and beliefs you would have with a Zambian Christian truck driver in Zambia.

Arguing that you know a person you know irl better than a hypothetical person you've never met is meaningless and a great example of why this is just a waste of time.

But to get to my main point, I wasn't sure if I was talking to a Black or White Nationalist (although I can probably guess)

Bullshit, you just don't read what anyone says and immediately project your John Lennon-esque "we're all people bro, there's like, no difference at all maaannn, you don't have a particular family broooo, you have the big huuuman family maaaan" lunacy over any healthy human connection.

Guys guys, I'm going to hell because I care more (ie can actually do something about) the white person down the road than a random African Christian 2000 miles away! Look look! The eternal hell fire (and remember it's FIRE and nothing else) awaits me because I did more for the non-Christian I can actually do something for than the hypothetical African 2000 miles away! This is Christian ethics! Wowzers! This is in no way just a projection of modern progressive racial equity into scripture! I definitely am not doing that! Nononononononoono!

Does Christianity teach ethnocentrism i.e. looking after and caring for your people before other ethnic groups?

Where is the racism and hating other races from here? Are you confused when someone tells you that a father should feed his own children first? "That's not Christian! Those kids are no more their father's family than a Zambian Christian on the other side of the world!" It's you who makes someone prioritizing their limited resources to those they have been given to first as hatred of those too distant to get to. Just endless walls of text about racism. An endless coping and bloviating about how evil it is to recognize both human diversity and physical limitations of being living human being.



There is just no point in talking with someone who has the same view of "family" and "community" that would be indistinguishable from a People's Temple style cult.

 

[marlimar]

You literally misquoted scripture. That's not my fault.

I interpret as loving your neighbor more than you love yourself to get around just not loving myself, which is in itself rejecting God because we only have the free will to give love because he gave it to us first. People walk around with an empty love glass, when the living water spigot is always available to refill that glass in my real life, so that's just a coping mechanism I use. I don't disagree with having priorities, and the love of God sacrificing his son out of love for us is the unattainable example we are given for love. I'm not sacrificing my children for anyone, so I'm well aware that God's love surpasses our own.

It is a fantasy to feed the world, to the extent that making disciples involves hands on involvement across the world is an open debate, but I prioritize the many current local problems I face over what Californians face, let alone half-way around the world.

 

[Derrick]

Arguing that you know a person you know irl better than a hypothetical person you've never met is meaningless and a great example of why this is just a waste of time.

Guys guys, I'm going to hell because I care more (ie can actually do something about) the white person down the road than a random African Christian 2000 miles away! Look look! The eternal hell fire (and remember it's FIRE and nothing else) awaits me because I did more for the non-Christian I can actually do something for than the hypothetical African 2000 miles away! This is Christian ethics! Wowzers! This is in no way just a projection of modern progressive racial equity into scripture! I definitely am not doing that! Nononononononoono!

You bring up a really good point about how hard it can be to change somebody views online, and with that in mind you're right wonder, 'what is the point of such a discussion', I wonder the same thing too on my, which is why I often leave things at, 'let's agree to disagree', but on this one I feel it's important for me to step in for the following reason:

As a Christian I am commanded to love everyone, friend and even foe. Now love doesn't mean I tolerate everything people do, especially if it is contrary to scripture. But it does mean, if they are going off the tracks, I warn them about it. Hell is real, there can be no doubt of this. If I saw a truck bearing down on you it would be my duty to warn you (even you didn't see the truck). When I bring it up it wasn't to say, "You need to burn you heretic!" It was to say, "My goodness this line of thinking can really do you in, you could be risking salvation over this penchant for hate". If the Bible says, "Hate your brother and you hate me". Well then you could be risking a lot not heading to his advice. If I hated you I could just sit back and do nothing and let you continue down the path you're on. But, and despite the obvious challenges, I feel it necessary to warn you and ask you to consider leaving Racism behind.

this cultish progressive view of social interaction

You appear to be falling into the leftist thought trap

You have to stop thinking of the Bible in a left-right binary. On some issues the Bible is would seem very right wing (at least from the perspective of our day and age) such as Abortion, Homosexuality, the ordination of the women. But on some other things the Bible takes a left wing view, like concern for the environment, charity for the poor, racism. It's important we don't project our modern political dichotomy onto this 2,000 year old unchanged collection of texts. In some ways Jesus and the early Christians probably seemed, for their time, progressive, for elevating slaves to equals and associating with women in a time they couldn't even testify in court.

Bullshit, you just don't read what anyone says and immediately project your John Lennon-esque "we're all people bro, there's like, no difference at all maaannn, you don't have a particular family broooo, you have the big huuuman family maaaan" lunacy over any healthy human connection.

I never insinuated different people groups had the exact same culture. Everyone's different, even within cultural groups. But it was to insinuate if you are a Christian you'll find more guys in Kenya saying "Christ is lord", then you would in Denmark. But you'll also find more in Ukraine or Moldova than you would in Somalia (which is incidentally the least Christian nation on Earth). If our goal is a Christ centered world you'd have an easier time finding it with the truck driver you mentioned than you would with the Atheist neighbor. Now before you go pulling examples of a Christians engaged in wrongdoing to insinuate "they don't really believe any of it", there are people who will say they're Christian but won't live by the rules, "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven".-Matthew 7:21, so not every single self identified Christian will be truly "Christ focused". In fact among the Dutch (it's really pick on the Netherlands day for me today it seems) only 27% of self-identified Dutch Catholics are theists, only 1/6 Dutch clergymen in their National Protestant Church believe in God. So certainty it goes beyond just identifying as a Christian, but that is a good place to start.

An actual bit of honesty from you would have you compare your views and beliefs to the white atheist who lives in your neighborhood that you see everyday as compared with the overlap in views and beliefs you would have with a Zambian Christian truck driver in Zambia.

You're right that I chose an extreme example didn't I by picking a hypothetical White man I've never met (and probably never will) to a real African-American I have interactions with frequently. The point was more to say that, just because you are the same color as someone else in your country, doesn't mean you have some Biblically ordained connection to protect that race.

I implore you to remember those five verses I sent you on Racism (especially check out Ephesians 2, particularly the back half of that chapter). Because of Christ deaths we no longer have a need for such tribalism. Just as Jesus appeared to the Samaritan at the well and called a Canaanite into ministry (Matthew 10:4) (Mark 3:18 ) so too are we asked to set aside Racial prejudice and remember all people who faithfully follow Christ are one.

 

[marlimar]

associating with women in a time they couldn't even testify in court

Jewish law needed two women to equal one man's testimony.

You have white atheists living in your neighborhood, the fact you haven't met them (and probably never will) is solely your decision. The "go" part of "go make disciples" starts at your front door, you may not have thought much about that.

 

[Preacher ✝]

The Wisdom of Bl. Fulton Sheen

Day 198 - Before the sin, Satan assures us that it is of no consequence; after the sin, he persuades us that it is unforgivable.

 

[G.G. A-Log]

Too often people focus on the Pharisees and neglect how truly awful the Sadducees were. Historically, the Sadducees were the nationalistic royalists who rejected the oral traditions of the Pharisees and kept strictly to the text to justify their own earthly desires. They were the ones who owned and maintained the temple; They were the ones who changed money in the temple; They were the ones to deny totally the physical resurrection. They only sought to reestablish the Jewish kingdom and enjoy the riches of the world.

It’s notable that the Pharisees, for all of their faults, were only ever called hypocrites. All that they said to do was right, but they never lived up to it. Many Pharisees became Christians, St. Paul kept the Torah perfectly! Even the Samaritans, a group of outcast and destitute heretical Jews that practiced a type of Gnosticism, have the Samaritan woman, the Leper, the Good Samaritan, and the many converts. Yet there is not one example given of a good Sadducee.

 

[marlimar]

. Yet there is not one example given of a good Sadducee.

The presumption is that Annas, Caiaphas and Judas Iscariot were all Sadducees or sympathetic to them in a Hasan > Hamas sort of sympathy doesn't help their image. When Herod looks good in comparison to your group, you aren't winning. I guess some folks are myopic, or sad-u-see to deny hope.

 

[Mad_Dog]

Historically, the Sadducees were the nationalistic royalists who rejected the oral traditions of the Pharisees and kept strictly to the text to justify their own earthly desires.

The original proponents of Sola Scriptura