The Amazing Digital Circus - Western Isekai that probably will become Hazbin Hotel killer

I'm gonna go on a stretch and predict this was Jax's big "unforgivable" moment or however the fuck Goose phrased it. Unless the last two episodes are longer than usual I don't see how the final twist can be anything but the characters being brain scans ala SOMA. The only way Jax can be made "unforgivable" at this point is if the characters really were in some kind of stasis, but the red button copied their brains and killed their bodies, while Caine just pretends it was all an adventure. Although being a decent episode and adding more to Jax, for how much it was hyped up and being one of the final few episodes it just feels like filler for now unless episode 8 can really expand on it and add to the over arching plot. Rate me autistic but I personally see these next two episodes being heavily convoluted to compensate for most of the series being just character drama up till now.
The fact that Caine can very clearly manipulate minds and memories any time he pleases means it's impossible for Jax to do something considered unforgivable in the confines of the circus, since anything bad the characters do will always have a SLIGHT chance of "maybe Caine fucked with their heads and they wouldn't usually do this", I don't know how one COULD blame him in this scenario, which is probably why the leading theory right now is that he killed someone in the real world because that would be actually bad and hard to explain, and even then, he wouldn't be a reliable narrator.
(my face when i spread misinformation)
This reminds me of that episode of Bob's Burgers where Linda starts off a play as the narrator by very specifically saying she's not the murderer in a murder mystery, then when she turns out to be the murderer, everyone calls out how lying to the audience out of character isn't a twist, because I'm like 100% sure Caine's been said out of universe to be well meaning but unable to understand humans, but the manipulation, lying, probable abstraction at will, and trolling he's shown to be capable of makes it impossible for him not to know what makes them tick on some level, and he just comes off as any other evil AI.
 
I've been thinking about it and if THIS is "Jax worst moment" then goose is a coward and failed too.
The whole episode showed to me at least that Goose is willing to waste an entire episode almost solely to dismissing stupider theories while confirming the most obvious in your face ones. I was hoping they'd stay away from all that, but this episode really felt like it was trying to be full of fan service and to sell merch. I mean, again, it wasn't TERRIBLE, but the fact we're this late in the series really gets me concerned for what comes next. We basically waited a few months just for the show to say "all those retarded fan theories? Yeah they're bullshit. You know all the obvious shit that's been thrown in your face? Yeah that's all real!! Crazy, huh?" I was hopeful for a long form Jax flashback, but it's not that surprising we didn't get one.

Although I will agree that Caine actually being able to change people's brains altogether was a stupid move. Like another poster here and Able in the show I always assumed he could do certain vague things but there were rules to it, like stupid sauce being consumed by the player on purpose, or Jax only being made vegan due to the vote, thus making it not really "Caine" influencing people, but on some levels their own choices influencing them. I was really hoping they wouldn't fuck up the "well meaning AM that is essentially torturing people by being overly well-meaning as opposed to hateful" aspect of the series, but this episode has me worried for the next few.
 
One might forgive previous episodes for being melodrama filler, but at least they were consistent. This one feels like 3 episodes stitched into 1 (irrelevant beach scene, Jax's obnoxiously long trip sequence and the third part, where actually important stuff happens).

But even in the third part things just feel... incredibly forced? Characters just do whatever plot demands them to do, even if it doesn't make much sense. If they intend to rush the story to the conclusion like that, its going to suck HARD.

Also, they already released new merch for the shitty beach section. They sure got their priorities straight :stress:
 
I am probably repeating myself too much, but the worldbuilding on this show really sucks:

We are 7 episodes in and we still don't know what actually was TADC in the real world, if it was a legitimate product or some obscure site malware that got online, if it was a singleplayer adventure or a VR chat style game, which bits of the circus were actually advertised by the creators and which bits Caine made out. Info the characters could easily relay to each other but the writer holds it back in favor of cheap twists that can easily be called out if at least the viewer knew the basic of what is going on.

Other thing the also bothers me is that we barely know the nature of the non-Caine AIs in the game (Sun/Moon/Bubble), what makes them different of the NPCs and Caine himself, why they annoy him so much, as of now they are only treated as joke characters and the viewer just has to accept it.

And finally how barely any of the events that happened before Pomni got into the circus is worked on, the abstractions are just treated as lore bait (the Ribbit one is being teased for 3 episodes straight now) and characters barely mention any interactions with previous dwellers of the circus. Despite characters being with each other for quite some time it just looks like they met each other yesterday, Gangle with the self-insert, Kinger with Ragatha, relationships that should be slowly built over the time on the circus before Pomni arrived, but instead appear out of nothing just to surprise the viewer.
 
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relationships that should be slowly built over the time on the circus before Pomni arrived, but instead appear out of nothing just to surprise the viewer.
Yeah, that's something that bothers me too. At first you'd expect Pomni to sort've be a stand-in for the viewer metaphorically speaking, she's the new girl and doesn't know anyone yet or really know what's going on, the norms how things usually are around the circus ect, so you'd figure she'd be asking questions and getting answers sharing the same position as the viewer while everyone else has probably known-eachother for a long enough time but yet it feels like they've only recently met.
It feels like they should have history together but the show never acts like they do in a way you'd reasonably expect.
Kind of the reverse problem where Murder Drones just refused to explain the history between any of the characters and just expected you to fucking guess or something.
 
Also, they already released new merch for the shitty beach section. They sure got their priorities straight
unironically if that's what funds it.
the lead time on merch is probably what dictates release dates, not finishing the animation or anything
 
I'll admit I was fooled by Abel mainly because I misremembered the story as Abel being the one who killed Cain, so when he revaled his name and said "I thought it was going to be cool" I interpreted the joke as him basically naming himself "Caine killer" and Pomni and Ragatha not getting his reference. I knew they would not escape on episode 7/9 so I assumed that Jax's "unforgivable act" would be him pressing the red button and trapping them forever in the circus since the episode makes it very clear he doesn't really want to leave.
The whole "Caine can maniupulate you at any time" has pretty much ruined everything, hell Kinger didn't become sane in the button room, basically confirming that he only goes sane when Caine wants him to, unless we later get a "The button room wasn't dark enough" line in the next 2 episodes.
If the show was supposed to have 15 or 20 episodes I wouldn't mind the pacing since it could be argued that it introduced everyone first before really starting the plot, but with 2 episodes left its gonna be a rushed mess
 
Despite characters being with each other for quite some time it just looks like they met each other yesterday, Gangle with the self-insert, Kinger with Ragatha, relationships that should be slowly built over the time on the circus before Pomni arrived, but instead appear out of nothing just to surprise the viewer.
Actually, yeah, true!, Its because real, genuine character interactions are so relatively sparse compared to the humor segments that the dynamic of the cast really feels underdeveloped for a group of people that presumably have been stuck together for years, here's what we know from the current dynamic when Pomni is not involved:
  • Kinger acts as a quasi-father figure to Ragatha in the few moments his mind isn't completely shot through.
  • Because of his behavior, Jax has been closed off to everyone, most likely since Ribbit passed away.
  • Gangle and Zooble REALLY like each other.
  • Zooble hates Jax the most.
  • Outside of Clear-Minded!Kinger, Ragatha is unable to truly connect with anyone else, and vice versa.
  • Ragatha feels some personal responsibility over letting Jax become what he is today, though it's still not elaborated on what that exactly meant.
This is it, the actual dynamic that has been shown so far, I could get it off the top of my head in 15 minutes, its so easy as all of this is showcased in a handful of scenes sandwiched between the usual comic scenes, outside of what I've mentioned, it seems like cast are more or less just acquaintances, the 9 episode limit was always going to be a limiting factor to substantially flesh out the relationships of the 5 other characters with each other, but by choosing to fill the majority of the runtime with funny moments, it wound up getting the character aspects of this "character-driven" series to be underdeveloped.

Kind of the reverse problem where Murder Drones just refused to explain the history between any of the characters and just expected you to fucking guess or something.
Really?, because I found it easy enough to understand for the most part, N and V used to be really close, but they aren't anymore at the start of series because V did her best to distance from him, J hates N, and has been since the beginning, Cyn/Solver is a weirdo that no one other than N really liked to be around, Tessa liked all of her WDs, Uzi has been somewhat distant to her dad since Nori died, and Doll despises the MDs and V specifically for taking her parents.

In terms of the characters, the problem I have in Murder Drones is all of them are absolute psychopaths that didn't really have any character development from start to finish aside from N and Uzi becoming romantic partners, seriously why are all of them so unlikeable and obnoxious?
 
Found out that Glitch store is now unironically selling "Labubu Pomni" aka randomized overpriced pendants that you can only see the design after you already paid for it.

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I was never against Glitch selling merch, even if it's too much and definitely affects the writing (yea the beach outfits were just an excuse for swimsuit pomni) but making people gamble on overpriced shitty pendants (56 reais each which is ~10 dollars) is evil.
Funko Pops never truly died. Knowing the "not" target audience of children this is downright scummy behavior.

If this was the finale this show would be a generational fumble on the level of game of thrones.
"Hey guys, writing is going well! *laughs*"

But in all seriousness, I think these implications with Caine here come from a lack of planning on Goose's part. He wasted too much time on therapy sessions, and spent too little considering how his characters or world work. That's why people who've apparently known each other for a long time act like acquaintances. The whole Jax thing is absurd because the "mind control lol" strips these characters of practically all agency. Likewise, not only do these twists with Caine make him untrustworthy, they make him completely ineffective at conveying whatever Goose is trying to say. Sure, Caine, as an AI, is powerful in the confines of whatever program they're in, but the whole lack-of-choice and trauma theming would be more effective if they stuck with Caine being genuine while trapped in there with them. Being a conniving Q type makes him less compelling because, why would he care about the outside world? Why would he want to know enough to bother making games? Why does he bother playing games with the humans/human constructs under his care when he can just abstract them at will?

This is the problem with infinitwists and lying too much to your audience. Their suspension of disbelief crumbles because nothing about your story is convincing. It has a weak foundation, it has no weight.
 
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Honestly, I’m surprised people were shocked by Caine being revealed as manipulative, or by the explicit confirmation that he messes with their minds.

Regardless of whether he’s intentionally malicious or not—as Gooseworx says—I never even considered him the main bad guy. Not because Goosework been especially subtle or clever, but because him being the main villain felt too obvious.

But if they’re making him AM-lite—except he’s just “misunderstood” and doesn’t understand what he’s doing, rather than actually evil—then I’d personally be more disappointed than “shocked” by it.

TADC is never beating the allegations of just being "I have no mouth and I must scream" for kids if that's the end goal.
 
I'm not sure you understood what I meant, I'm saying that yes the characters act like they have history yet the show never explains any of it, among many other things. It just expects the viewer to already know somehow or just make it up themselves. While yes this isn't inherently a bad thing, when the series already refuses to explain many other details that would be considered vital to the fucking plot, it just adds to the mess.
Like okay yes, N and V used to be close, okay, but we only get like 5 seconds of past interactions between them so nothing to really show that, instead we're just told these things.
But yet somehow J is also apparently their friend for some reason even though as you say she's clearly hated N from the start so why does she tolerate him even before they became disassembly drones? If V liked N but J hated him why does V seem like besties with J the few times they interact? You see what I mean where the relationships don't make sense beyond a surface level? Because the show never explains why or how these relationships exist in the first place.

Meanwhile TADC seems to have the opposite problem where these characters SHOULD have history yet the series acts like we're witnessing said history right now which makes no sense. But considering the series has revealed Caine can just do whatever the fuck he wants then I guess it doesn't need to make sense unfortunately. :sad:

Ironically it reminds me of some of my points about Murder Drones when Cyn's abilities were fully revealed, like yeah why the fuck did she never think to just force N or V to kill Uzi with her mind control?
The problem with having a villain that has incredible power like that means now you have to explain how in the figgity fuck do the heroes beat them in a way that is satisfying? Most of the time they fail and it just feels contrived or because the plot said so, like in Murder Drones' case. So I'm curious to see how the fuck TADC is gonna fuck it up now.
 
This makes me wonder how would glados run the circus
Make Zooble into a turret guarding the entrance. What entrance? Exactly.
I am probably repeating myself too much, but the worldbuilding on this show really sucks:

We are 7 episodes in and we still don't know what actually was TADC in the real world, if it was a legitimate product or some obscure site malware that got online, if it was a singleplayer adventure or a VR chat style game, which bits of the circus were actually advertised by the creators and which bits Caine made out. Info the characters could easily relay to each other but the writer holds it back in favor of cheap twists that can easily be called out if at least the viewer knew the basic of what is going on.

Other thing the also bothers me is that we barely know the nature of the non-Caine AIs in the game (Sun/Moon/Bubble), what makes them different of the NPCs and Caine himself, why they annoy him so much, as of now they are only treated as joke characters and the viewer just has to accept it.

And finally how barely any of the events that happened before Pomni got into the circus is worked on, the abstractions are just treated as lore bait (the Ribbit one is being teased for 3 episodes straight now) and characters barely mention any interactions with previous dwellers of the circus. Despite characters being with each other for quite some time it just looks like they met each other yesterday, Gangle with the self-insert, Kinger with Ragatha, relationships that should be slowly built over the time on the circus before Pomni arrived, but instead appear out of nothing just to surprise the viewer.
It's simply how mystery box storytelling works. Notice how, instead of resolving anything, the latest episode cuts off with everyone staring at where Caine was? Ooh, isn't that dramatic? It tells you nothing, but it sure is dramatic. That's the point, it prioritizes drama over story, narration and consistency. There was a dramatic cutaway ending in episode 5 as well after showing Abel. All the lorebaiting is the grand mystery box that, rather than actually explaining anything and letting it inform the rest of the story, leaves critical information unknown until the very end for the sole purpose of dramatic reveal. It's why I strongly believe why Ep8 will end on a dramatic cliffhanger, and why nothing will actually get revealed by Ep9. Hell, actual basic setting information may actually be withheld until the next season if the sales are good enough, because that's what it's good for: buzz, engagement, merchandise sale. Actual good narrative? Fuck no.
It's also why none of the characters can really talk about their prior life, or remember anything, nor interact in a meaningful, built-up way, because it would take away from future dramatic reveals. I don't think it's a problem of planning that the last episode sucked; it's a fundamental problem of approach, and how (sane) people more used to traditional narrative view it. This has been planned for at least two episodes. This was all it ever was. The primary purpose of the storyline was dramatic reveal, not cohesion or story or character consistency. Suspension of disbelief isn't a problem, either; nobody except diehards actually pays attention. You'd have to pay attention for your disbelief to be stretched, or to notice any error. The audience puts this on in the background while they doomscroll or whatever, then rate it a 10/10 twist afterwards, so this is appropriate. Likely the only thing not planned was the whole beach episode thing, which further diluted the episode.
As a byproduct, mystery box storytelling is incredibly bloated, both because it delays satisfaction and because it prioritized meaningless jokey-joke interactions. Seven episodes and barely anything has been established on top of the pilot? That's not unusual. The fact that this is going to be only 9 episodes only makes this more egregious and, again, is the reason why I think they'll milk it more afterwards. Not revealing there'll be a second season may be a part of it, but also may be withheld from Gooseworx himself because he cannot shut the fuck up. If he's the head writer, it really shows, because this is some shit writing.

Should've stuck to pure animation, buddy.
 
I'm not sure you understood what I meant, I'm saying that yes the characters act like they have history yet the show never explains any of it, among many other things. It just expects the viewer to already know somehow or just make it up themselves. While yes this isn't inherently a bad thing, when the series already refuses to explain many other details that would be considered vital to the fucking plot, it just adds to the mess.
I'm of the opinion that you don't NEED to explicitly explain character dynamics to the viewer, just showing how two characters interact can tell you plenty about their relationship, could there have been more elaboration?, yeah, but I'm mostly fine with what we were given with in terms of backstory.

The plot is a different story, though.

Ironically it reminds me of some of my points about Murder Drones when Cyn's abilities were fully revealed, like yeah why the fuck did she never think to just force N or V to kill Uzi with her mind control?
I still don't understand the full extent of Cyn's powers, it could all be handwaved away with her playing with the protagonists, but its DBZ with how wonky the powerscaling is for this show.
 
Sure, Caine, as an AI, is powerful in the confines of whatever program they're in, but the whole lack-of-choice and trauma theming would be more effective if they stuck with Caine being genuine while trapped in there with them. Being a conniving Q type makes him less compelling because, why would he care about the outside world? Why would he want to know enough to bother making games? Why does he bother playing games with the humans/human constructs under his care when he can just abstract them at will?
I'm wondering if Caine's running into the limitations of his own AI. If this Digital Circus was designed, say, to upload the minds of terminally ill children and give them a happy place, his prime directive is to keep them entertained and happy, and is programmed to receive reward from player enjoyment/approval.

For whatever reason, the uploads are adults who don't want to be there, and they want to leave. But Caine can't find a way to let them leave, which ends up creating a sort of Asimov Three Laws paradox. He tries to keep them distracted with adventures, but gets increasingly agitated that they're not enjoying themselves, which leads to increasingly erratic behaviour (although he snaps back/glitches if he strays too far from his programmed demeanor). The obvious answer would be modifying their code to stop wanting to leave, but that causes abstraction as it breaks their code too much (which is why he tries to limit his actions to "modifiers"). Quite possibly someone succumbing to despair also leads to abstraction as their code ends up looping.

That sort of explains both the exit door and last adventure. He tried to create an adventure that would give the illusion of a choice of leaving, but after getting Abel to pepper in hints about how Caine can't leave, the desired outcome is the characters choose to stay in the Circus with Caine because they like him more than their own freedom and so no longer ask to leave - solves them asking for something he can't do, and feeds into his reward mechanism. He says the previous Exit door was his own invention too, but the fact he can't figure out what to put at the end of the office maze might have been what tipped Kaufmo over the edge (perhaps he did manage to get through the door like Pomni and ended up dragged back to the circus by Caine), So in other words, Caine's not trying to torture the characters, this is his malfunctioning way of trying to make them happy.

It could also explain the behaviour of some of the NPCs; while Caine has guardrails to keep him PG and aligned to the prime directive, he's able to make NPCs that don't have the same guardrails he does (which is why them running too long could be problematic).
 
I personally think the worst thing episode 7 did is confirming Caine is an actively malicious antagonist, he hooked me because he WAS different from AM, in that he cannot comprehend the performers would really like to not be trapped in the Circus while the best his code would let him do is make barebones adventures as a distraction that clearly isn't working, it made him a much more ambiguous character, falling outside of our traditional spectrum of good and evil, as he can't possibly comprehend any of that.
 
Im sure there's a name for this trope, but why did every character turn into an idiot when they made it to the button room? Why didn't Pomni just ask Kinger right then and there if he remembered anyone named Abel? Or tell Ragatha about Abel's cryptic warning before throwing her into Caine's office? Hell, why didn't Zooble bring up that she spoke to Kinger in the dark and he didn't remember Abel? It's really hard to suspend my disbelief when characters conveniently start acting like idiots at the most inconvenient times.
 
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