Ukrainian Defensive War against the Russian Invasion - Mark IV: The Partitioning of Discussion

All this talk about a modernized P-51 drone interceptor and no one mentioned the Enforcer?

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I did mentioned it earlier and a better picture of it in the USAF PAVE COIN trials.
Piper_PA48_Enforcer_USAF.jpg
And sure, drones have advantages but they can't really become fully armed replacements for fighter planes. Sure, the US has the MQ-9s that can launch missiles, but those same UAVs are the size of basic human training aircraft and at best only carry bomb or missile payloads - to put guns on drones would create massive additions of weight of not only the guns themselves, but you need to account for all the ammo as well which needs storage AND contributes more weight. There's a reason why the US never just made drones out of A-10s.
U.S. Military also haves other drone programs where retired aircraft like older fighters and such as made into target and experiment test drones. At least few of the tests was having 50s, and 60s era fighter drones squaring off against manned fighters in the 70s, 80s and 90s in simulated combat.
 
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'Special Operations Centre Alpha, part of the Security Service of Ukraine (SSU), conducted an operation at the Russian Black Sea Fleet naval base in Sevastopol, as well as at the Belbek military airfield in occupied Crimea on the night of 25-26 April.

Source: Security Service of Ukraine

Details: The SSU confirmed strikes on several targets, including:

Yamal large landing ship
Nikolai Filchenkov large landing ship
Ivan Khurs reconnaissance ship
Lukomka training centre
headquarters of radio-technical intelligence of air defence forces
MR-10M1 Mys-M1 radar system
MiG-31 aircraft at Belbek airfield
technical and maintenance section of Belbek airfield.....'


Ukraine isn't letting the grass grow under their feet. I didn't see this posted, but it might've been. The point for me is that Crimea is strategically null for Russia. The Black Sea Fleet is gone already. Now the Russians aren't going to quit Crimea as strategically untenable, which itself is in a way. Crimea was almost the primary point of the war, both for its strategic use on the Black Sea and for it pointing to the heart of Ukraine.
 
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MiG-31 aircraft at Belbek airfield
While we obviously need more details and numbers, this here is notable. MiG-31K variants have been the primary launch platform for the Kinzhal, so each one that gets taken out is a further burden lifted off of UA air defence's shoulders.
 
Why use a vintage aircraft to hunt drones when you could make a drone with quad .50s on it to hunt drones? What's the advantage of putting a human into an expensive museum piece?
Why would recoil of a machinegun be too much for a non-piloted craft, but not too much for one with a pilot? I very obviously wasn't talking about a temu quadcopter. You're either arguing in bad faith or an idiot.
tl;dr: You don't see machine guns on drones (currently) because of concerns the drone will decide its time to starting firing and not stop, or miss a signal that it is time to stop firing.
You also need to consider recoil, or more accurately "push back". The A-10's GAU8 produces more backward thrust than its engines produce forward thrust.

Most drones are smaller than a spitfire and underpowered, designed for endurance not performance.

the forces from a .50 cal will also fuck with sensors that aren't hardened. Most Ukraine/Russian drones use "vibe + GPS" to determine their location. That is, they use GPS but also airspeed (read: engine performance) and vector to figure out about where in real space they are. That gets much harder when guns are involved. a WWII fighter doesn't care if the plane is pushed 10m backwards by the gun force becuse it is piloted by a human who will make those corrections. a drone doesn't have the luxury.

.50 is also not the greatest for aerial engagements. It has punch and range so it was good enough WWII and its cheap and reliable for ground based systems and trying to wave off helicopters. But people don't process that a fighter in WWII had multipe 'cones' of fire and most of your ammo went out into nothing. You would also be engaging targets smaller than WWII fighters.
as I said in my other other post, you really want 20+mm - whatever you can cram a proximity fuse into.

all that said, I wouldn't be shocked if we see that in near-ish future, but that is not today.
You do see FPV drones with shotgin 'metalstorm' arrays on them for hunting other drones..

You ask why you can't slap quad .50 cals onto a drone, and the answer there is sheer recoil. It would be difficult enough to just get one 50 cal onto a drone platform, but quads firing simultaneously would be like throwing a small home refrigerator against the airframe. Repeatedly.

The whole 'bring back WWII fighters' discussion was purely from how Ukraine is using an old soviet trainer prop plane (which ironically enough is actually from the mid-1970s) to get a guy with a shotgun in the air close enough to just pop slugs into the things. A properly outfitted fighter would just make it more efficient by giving the pilot control over the trigger, to which end many modern trainer aircraft of prop and jet variety do have armed variants that could be applied to the role.

And sure, drones have advantages but they can't really become fully armed replacements for fighter planes. Sure, the US has the MQ-9s that can launch missiles, but those same UAVs are the size of basic human training aircraft and at best only carry bomb or missile payloads - to put guns on drones would create massive additions of weight of not only the guns themselves, but you need to account for all the ammo as well which needs storage AND contributes more weight. There's a reason why the US never just made drones out of A-10s.
Everyone always underestimates bandwidth an how often even unjammed comms drop out from drones for a second or two.

The command post and rear deployment point of the FSB’s Directorate of Mobile Operations in occupied Donetsk got FP-2 ACK'd:
KGB zizters...

Cross-thread post; ziggers getting ACK'd in Mali and running for their lives as we speak:
my multipolar world....
 
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tl;dr: You don't see machine guns on drones (currently) because of concerns the drone will decide its time to starting firing and not stop
OK, that is a logical argument against machine guns on an unmanned vehicle.

If machine guns are no good in general for hunting big drones, I still see no advantage in a ww2 interceptor aside from being a good way to get laid.
 
OK, that is a logical argument against machine guns on an unmanned vehicle.

If machine guns are no good in general for hunting big drones, I still see no advantage in a ww2 interceptor aside from being a good way to get laid.
You clearly missed the part where everybody else already agreed that actually pulling out WWII designs for drone interceptors is a stupid idea on every level, mainly because (but not limited to) the existence of far superior trainer aircraft with small caliber weapons, and the whole argument was purely academic.
 
'Special Operations Centre Alpha, part of the Security Service of Ukraine (SSU), conducted an operation at the Russian Black Sea Fleet naval base in Sevastopol, as well as at the Belbek military airfield in occupied Crimea on the night of 25-26 April.

Source: Security Service of Ukraine

Details: The SSU confirmed strikes on several targets, including:

Yamal large landing ship
Nikolai Filchenkov large landing ship
Ivan Khurs reconnaissance ship
Lukomka training centre
headquarters of radio-technical intelligence of air defence forces
MR-10M1 Mys-M1 radar system
MiG-31 aircraft at Belbek airfield
technical and maintenance section of Belbek airfield.....'
Screenshots from the footage of these ACKs:
1777208531177287.jpg1777208625521579.jpg1777208659010161.jpg1777208691074383.jpg1777208724826642.jpg
The MiG-31 looks suspect, especially its chunky wings; an artifact in the night vision image or is the aircraft a decoy?
 
I still see no advantage in a ww2 interceptor aside from being a good way to get laid.
You are correct. As @Optimus Prime points out, we've been agreeing with that. The only way it makes sense is you have a bunch of WWII interceptors and pilots trained on them, and the logistics to keep them flying.

But, point of order, most WWII fighters either had or could mount a 20mm cannon - but hahahahahahah on trying to get a WWII fighter decked out with a range finder to set proximity fuse. Not impossible, but a lot of work for minimal reward.
 
You clearly missed the part where everybody else already agreed that actually pulling out WWII designs for drone interceptors is a stupid idea on every level, mainly because (but not limited to) the existence of far superior trainer aircraft with small caliber weapons, and the whole argument was purely academic.
No, I missed the part where flying them by remote control was a bad idea because of the trouble of making them shoot at the right time.
 
You CIA assets are pathetic. I'm still obsessed with the CIA even after 40 years. Hell I'm still obsessed with Barbarossa even after 80 years.

Get over it? Get over it? Uh apparently you don't know who you're talking to, kid. We have nothing to do here in Magnetogork. All we do is obsess over history.

The Chinese? They fought a century of humiliation and a half-century of war. When you meet a Chinese in 2026? "Hey how you doing."

When you meet a Russian in 2026? "WELL TUCKER LET ME TELL YOU ABOUT THE FIRST PARTITION OF POLAND-"
 
Lines on Maps Extra/William Spaniel's "Russia's Arsenal After Ukraine: Will There Be Anything Left?":
Suppose that the Kremlin could mobilize popular domestic support for a war with Europe. Does any of that matter if Russia has no armaments left? Today, we examine the state of Soviet stockpiles, and how much they will affect Russia's ability to fight a war in the future.

0:00 Today's Question
1:51 The Utility of Soviet Stockpiles
3:38 Difference in Doctrine
5:36 Russia's Post-War Production
7:33 The Western Production Gap
tl;dr Spaniel argues that all the ACKed Soviet-era rust buckets might be a blessing in disguise if Russia has burned through its now shitty dated Soviet-era stockpile to replace it all with military infrastructure/factories can produce one-way weapon systems that won't require much funding to keep running post-Ukraine war. Europe, in turn, is rather doubtful; France wants only funding within the EU (sorry, Gator Ukraine) and countries like Spain just opt out.
 
If you haven’t seen it already…


But people don't process that a fighter in WWII had multipe 'cones' of fire and most of your ammo went out into nothing
What you really want is a synchronized machine gun firing *through* the propellor of a nice manoeuvrable biplane such as a Fokker or Sopwith Camel from ~1915. No cone of fire, but a simple iron sight on the engine cowling for intuitive aiming by the pilot at slow and non-evasive targets such as Shaheds.
 
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Lines on Maps Extra/William Spaniel's "Russia's Arsenal After Ukraine: Will There Be Anything Left?":

tl;dr Spaniel argues that all the ACKed Soviet-era rust buckets might be a blessing in disguise if Russia has burned through its now shitty dated Soviet-era stockpile to replace it all with military infrastructure/factories can produce one-way weapon systems that won't require much funding to keep running post-Ukraine war. Europe, in turn, is rather doubtful; France wants only funding within the EU (sorry, Gator Ukraine) and countries like Spain just opt out.
Russia hasn't even admitted it's been in a war for four years. It simply does not have the capacity to suddenly bring such infrastructure online when almost half its oil processing economy has been blown to kingdom come.
 
Screenshots from the footage of these ACKs:
View attachment 8921169View attachment 8921309View attachment 8921311View attachment 8921313View attachment 8921315
The MiG-31 looks suspect, especially its chunky wings; an artifact in the night vision image or is the aircraft a decoy?
It looks very suspect to me. Engines and nose also look "off" as well.

'Special Operations Centre Alpha, part of the Security Service of Ukraine (SSU), conducted an operation at the Russian Black Sea Fleet naval base in Sevastopol, as well as at the Belbek military airfield in occupied Crimea on the night of 25-26 April.

Source: Security Service of Ukraine

Details: The SSU confirmed strikes on several targets, including:

Yamal large landing ship
Nikolai Filchenkov large landing ship
Ivan Khurs reconnaissance ship
Lukomka training centre
headquarters of radio-technical intelligence of air defence forces
MR-10M1 Mys-M1 radar system
MiG-31 aircraft at Belbek airfield
technical and maintenance section of Belbek airfield.....'


Ukraine isn't letting the grass grow under their feet. I didn't see this posted, but it might've been. The point for me is that Crimea is strategically null for Russia. The Black Sea Fleet is gone already. Now the Russians aren't going to quit Crimea as strategically untenable, which itself is in a way. Crimea was almost the primary point of the war, both for its strategic use on the Black Sea and for it pointing to the heart of Ukraine.
Russia has had more successful enemy strikes on its ships since the US attacked Iran than the US has.

Clearly, Russia got the 3d flipper paint that looks like a real plane from a technology share with Iran.
So what both sides have been using are a mix of plywood and inflatable decoys.

Unlike Iran which was one dubious and likely edited or fake photo of airplanes painted (almost perfectly) to the tarmac and a bomb crater on one of them.

The geometry above looks "off" for a MiG-31 up close; whereas what we saw from Iran was near-perfect contours and shading of F-14s and F-5s.

I certainly HOPE it's not a decoy and Ukraine hit a MiG-31 for real.
 
Lines on Maps Extra/William Spaniel's "Russia's Arsenal After Ukraine: Will There Be Anything Left?":

tl;dr Spaniel argues that all the ACKed Soviet-era rust buckets might be a blessing in disguise if Russia has burned through its now shitty dated Soviet-era stockpile to replace it all with military infrastructure/factories can produce one-way weapon systems that won't require much funding to keep running post-Ukraine war. Europe, in turn, is rather doubtful; France wants only funding within the EU (sorry, Gator Ukraine) and countries like Spain just opt out.
Only thing I'm going to really say there is that Ukraine had shown us that even shitty cold war stockpiles are better than the alternative of "nothing".

Its better to have 10 T-80s now than 1 M-1 in a year.

It looks very suspect to me. Engines and nose also look "off" as well.
Same. Its just a single poor quality IR image, but the engines look like they are "solid" and not open.
Counter point I'd posit though is that the temp is very different than the tarmac and much colder. I would expect an wooden replica to be closer in temp to the area around it, but maybe it was stored somewhere out of the sun and just brought out.


If you haven’t seen it already…
View attachment 8923749
Fucking lol. Should have just gone with Chechen corrective rape videos to show recruits what they're really in for.
wiat, no, that would only increase recruitment.

What you really want is a synchronized machine gun firing *through* the propellor of a nice manoeuvrable biplane such as a Fokker or Sopwith Camel from ~1915. No cone of fire, but a simple iron sight on the engine cowling for intuitive aiming by the pilot at slow and non-evasive targets such as Shaheds.
That's why was saying my "Milsperg Ideal" was a twin-engine or rear-mounted engine.
A P-38. Actually upgrade the radar and avionics on a P-61 and reduce the crew to one or maybe two, and you have very nearly what I was looking for, even down to the 20mm cannons.
 
You are correct. As @Optimus Prime points out, we've been agreeing with that. The only way it makes sense is you have a bunch of WWII interceptors and pilots trained on them, and the logistics to keep them flying.

But, point of order, most WWII fighters either had or could mount a 20mm cannon - but hahahahahahah on trying to get a WWII fighter decked out with a range finder to set proximity fuse. Not impossible, but a lot of work for minimal reward.
There ain't enough vintage WWII fighters in left in flyable condition nor are there any of them capable of doing combat missions to be any use to anyone. As the only viable way to make use of WWII fighter designs to is build brand new models of them. Which is why crop dusters and retired prop trainers are really the only game in town to function as aerial drone swatters.
 
There ain't enough vintage WWII fighters in left in flyable condition nor are there any of them capable of doing combat missions to be any use to anyone. As the only viable way to make use of WWII fighter designs to is build brand new models of them. Which is why crop dusters and retired prop trainers are really the only game in town to function as aerial drone swatters.
That goes without saying, no way would any actual antiques from 80 years ago be viable combat platforms. The whole idea of why WWII designs would even be considered was how most of them would fare in relatively low-altitude dogfighting, but they'd need modernization since aviation technology for prop planes has evolved over those same 80 years.

Which is why something like the T-6 Texan II with guns would be the most ideal since that plane came out in the 2000s and is still in active production. Or, more likely for jets power, the L-39NG Skyfox since that is a modernized Warsaw Pact era trainer from Czechoslovakia that already has membership in the Ukrainian Air Force.
 
Problem with jet trainers like the L-39NG Skyfox is the relatively small number of them built. Leading to the problem of deciding what's more important, training pilots or using them as drone hunters. Until someone puts in the order(s) and pony up the cash for more trainers to be built, that will remain the problem.
 
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