Legend of Zelda thread - Lorefags GTFO!

Never Scored said:
Do you feel a shakeup in the main 3D series was unwarranted?
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Not in the core formula, no. Even back when ALBW came out, I liked how it let you tackle Lorule in almost any order, but I noticed it also caused a difficulty plateau. I think it's been discussed to death in the entire thread. BotW was too far in the other direction, and it feels like any open world game with a Zelda-themed paint job. Give me the physics puzzles, give me a cool large world to explore, but couch it in Zelda. Limited healing, recognizable items, dungeons, nooks and crannies to explore, enemy variety, and progression.

If Nintendo can marry the creative Shrines, core dungeon mechanics (interactive like the divine beasts), and open exploration with a progression-based system and unique designs that actually feel like Zelda, we could truly have a greatest game of all time,
 
Strangolapreti said:
Ganon is usually kept as the final boss but scarcely appears during the game he's featured in, more likely being a presence manipulating shit behind the stage.
Its kind of a bullshit take to think "People wrong if they say Zelda has too much Ganon" because Its not the case, he has been present in nearly every games and Nintendo should try cutting him from games more and more.
I can even back it up by providing a comprehensive list of Ganon appearances across mainline games.
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Some of this seems kind of nitpicky. Like, you're gonna count LA because the Nightmare takes Ganon's shape for one form, and ST because Malladus looks kind of like Ganon? Instead of just listing out every game where you can say Ganon appeared in some form, I think it might be more useful to go over how many villains we've had and the quality of them. Here's every villain I would consider a "major" antagonist:
Ganon/Ganondorf, Agahnim, Nightmare, Skull Kid/Majora, Onox, Veran, Twinrova, Vaati, Zant, Bellum, Malladus/Cole (not the same person, but we'll count them as one), Ghirahim, Demise, Yuga, Lady Maud, Null.

So that's 16 major villains in the series. Pretty nice. But now let's start cutting that list down to "memorable villains who aren't Ganon."
  • Well first off, Ganondorf obviously is off the list. We can also remove Demise and Yuga since the former is basically Ganon's origin point like he was cloned off him, and the latter is a parallel world Ganondorf who fuses with Ganon by the end, so a lot of people would say it still feels like Ganon is indirectly the villain. We can also remove Agahnim because he doesn't really have a clear personality outside of being Ganondorf's proxy and may literally just be Ganon acting through a puppet.
  • Nightmare, Bellum, and Null all kind of just feel like forces of nature, so that puts them in a weird position where their games are definitely ones where Ganon isn't really present but a lot of people wouldn't really put them up as memorable villains who could stand with Ganondorf, so we'll take them off.
  • Lady Maud is just plain forgettable and her game sucked, I had to Google who the villain of TFH even was again. While not as bad, I would say Malladus & Cole and are also not villains people immediately think of when thinking of Zelda villains, they're kind of generic. So another couple off.
  • Twinrova is rather debatable being on the initial list at all, but given they appear in both OoT where they're the only boss besides Ganondorf with dialogue, and in the Oracle games where they're the ones behind everything and the second-to-last boss of a link game, I feel like they count as major antagonist. But still, their appearances are short enough that most people wouldn't think of them, so off the list.
  • Onox and Veran actually are the main villains and final bosses Seasons and Ages, but they're easily overlooked because: 1. They're technically working for Ganon, who's the true final boss when you use the link feature. 2. The Oracle games were relatively unpopular in sales and not that many have played them compared to more mainline Zelda games. 3. As far as I know, they've never been references in other games.
So that leaves us with Skull Kid (Majora), Vaati, Zant, and Ghirahim as non-Ganon-proxy villains people might immediately think of. That said, Zant was subordinate to Ganondorf and is infamous for Ganondorf taking his place as main villain of TP. And Ghirahim was subordinate to Demise and becomes his sword at the end. Something that makes Zant and Ghirahim more memorable is that they were both in Hyrule Warriors, but both end up working under Ganondorf by the end of that.

So Skull Kid/Majora and Vaati are basically the only two major villains people would think about who aren't tied to Ganon in any way (outside of Ganon popping up as the real final boss after Vaati in one of Vaati's three games).
 
Retarded Weeb said:
[Yuga] is a parallel world Ganondorf who fuses with Ganon by the end, so a lot of people would say it still feels like Ganon is indirectly the villain.
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I always felt the opposite. His personality is entirely different, along with his skillset. I remember thinking they were going to have Ganon off Yuga when they summoned him, and then the back half of ALBW would be dealing with Ganon and preventing his escape from Lorule (mirrioring the plot of ALttP). Instead Yuga steals his body. Even in their fused state, he's more like Yuga. He has the dreads, his skin color changes from the iconic blue, and the Trident functions like his paintbrush. I won't see Yuganon isn't a "Ganon proxy" - because it is - but I never felt like Yuga was *just* Ganon. He's also in HW, but less people have played the DE version.

Side-note, I always head-cannoned that Yuga was able to meld with Ganon because the Ganon in ALBW is the mindless, retard Ganon from Oracles.
 
Retarded Weeb said:
Some of this seems kind of nitpicky.
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I said it was a list of times where Ganon made an appearance in any way, shape or form.
Retarded Weeb said:
Like, you're gonna count LA because the Nightmare takes Ganon's shape for one form, and ST because Malladus looks kind of like Ganon?
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After making that list, I also counted the time Ganon or a Ganon equivalent (Malladius true forn shares appearance and titles, Demise is his ancestor) was a central plot point in a Zelda game, even excluding Link awakening.
Retarded Weeb said:
Onox and Veran actually are the main villains and final bosses Seasons and Ages, but they're easily overlooked
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Onox suffers the same issue Ganon does in a lot of Zelda games: he appears at the start, does jack and shit in the middle and serves as final boss in the end.

Veran is the kind of villain the series need: she stays, always in control, actively and manipulates others, trying to stip her early on fails because she has backups and there's a ticking clock to push the heroe into trying to stop her (in this case, its completing the dark tower). You even find out that she messed with people's lives in other ways, like poisoning the ocean, turning the fairy into an octorok and, if I remember correctly, damaging Simmetry village's magic Nut.
Hell, she even has a unique design, and you could easily add worldbuilding by making her an evil great fairy, instead of recycle the gerudo sandniggers every single fucking time.
 
Veran is a very good boss and I always wished Seasons had more of a narrative like Ages. Guess it's what happens when Seasons was cobbled together from the scrapped remake/s and Ages got a lot of the unused content from the Mysterious Seed games, when it was a planned trilogy. Though it really helps Seasons and Ages contrast each other.
 
Jack Garland said:
Though it really helps Seasons and Ages contrast each other.
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I genuinely prefer the map in Season.
Despite lacking a past version, Holodrum feels far larger than Labrynna.
Dungeons in ages are more creative, but gameplay wise I much rather prefer seasons.
Also which game you prefer to play first, Seasons or Ages?
I tend to go with ages first and seasons second, I can't give a fuck about Rosa and I prefer getting the damage ring lvl 3 over the defensive one.
 
Strangolapreti said:
Despite lacking a past version, Holodrum feels far larger than Labrynna.
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Because it is larger than Labrynna. It's also easier to get around.
Strangolapreti said:
Also which game you prefer to play first, Seasons or Ages?
I tend to go with ages first and seasons second, I can't give a fuck about Rosa and I prefer getting the damage ring lvl 3 over the defensive one.
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I usually alternate. Last time I played I did Ages > Seasons so my current run is Seasons into Ages.
If I had to speculate, I'd say Ages is meant to be first, though it hardly matters.
 
Strangolapreti said:
Also which game you prefer to play first, Seasons or Ages?
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Jack Garland said:
If I had to speculate, I'd say Ages is meant to be first, though it hardly matters.
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I always go with Seasons first, and that feels like the intended order.
  1. If you read the story introductions in the manuals, Seasons' starts with a description of the opening scene of Link finding the Triforce and getting warped to Holodrum, whereas Ages' starts with Link already in Labrynna.
  2. Seasons' opening with Link being found passed out also feels more fitting for me as the start of his first adventure.
  3. This order also fits with how Seasons' title screen is in the morning while Ages' title screen is in the evening.
  4. In Seasons you have to go through the Hero's Cave to get the sword at the start with it only being expanded as an optional dungeon in a link game. In Ages you can only visit the Hero's Cave in a link game; in a normal game you've given a sword.
  5. There's one square of Labrynna you can only visit and uncover on your map on a link game. There's nothing similar in Holodrum.
  6. Like how Pokemon versions are always said in a specific order (ex. it's always Red & Blue, never Blue & Red), every official place you'll see the games listed always orders them as Oracles of Seasons & Oracle of Ages.
  7. Seasons > Ages is also the order the Hyrule Historia and Hyrule Encyclopedia introduce the games in and write plot summaries as if Ages it the link game.
  8. And it's also the order the manga adaptation went with to.
 
Retarded Weeb said:
I always go with Seasons first, and that feels like the intended order.
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Never really felt like that to me, but honestly I look more at the Great Moblin story, the pirates and what character from the first game traveling in the second than anything else:

Regard the Great Moblin, I always thought it was more satisfying beating him first in Ages, where he manages to escape, and then in Seasons, where he ultimately falls to depression and start making and selling bombs to buy a new fortress.

For the traveling character's subplot:
If you play Seasons first, you get Rosa wandering around Labrynna, she's obnoxious and the only thing that changes aside of getting a bunch of subrosians learning goron dance.
If you play Ages first, queen Ambi travels around and you also get to learn who her husband was, the same husband she built the big tower for, and the two manages to unite one last time, before he departs.

It also connects to the pirate storyline: you meet them in the past at Labrynna, the captain explains to you they want to travel to Holodrum as they were stuck in the Sea of No Return so you help them, escape, while in a linked game that starts with Ages, you meet them in the present and just disappears from the map after.

Yes, you will never get to see that one fucking tile of the map if you do ages first, but its not like there's anything useful in it anyway.
 
Strangolapreti said:
Holy shit I just googled it and apparently everyone who played the game is triggered by it.
You can reach it with a glitch I guess.
As I said, there's jack shit inside that place, why even bother?
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It's a game all about exploring the map the find secrets. If you have part of the map blocked off that looks like it could be some secret but is actually just plain inaccessible (and means you can never "fill out" the in-game map), then it should be no surprise this will confuse and frustrate a lot of people.
 
Strangolapreti said:
Hell, she even has a unique design,
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Sorceress Sisters.png
I refuse to believe it's a simple coincidence. I refuse.
 
Lone MacReady II said:
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I refuse to believe it's a simple coincidence. I refuse.
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Would you believe me if I told you O find more interesting her other forms?
Mainly her second one, it always made me believe she was an evil great fairy or something alike and I wish they expanded on her origin.
DickMain said:
This is also Z2 for those who don't know. His minions are doing the Castlevania shit and trying to get Link's blood to use in a ritual iirc
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Yeah, its the whole RETURN OF GANON thing that I only mentioned because I thought it was unecessary to detail.

Still about the Oracle games, I think it still makes more sense for Seasons to be set after Ages because of the way the introduction scene and the villain:
In Ages, you find Nayru surrounded by animals and there's only her boyfriend to guard her, even during a linked game, while Din's crew reveals you to be bodyguards when you interact with them in a linked game, and Impa follows the group as well, instead of immediately getting possessed.
Also, despite being worse than Veran as a main villain, Onox is still more formidable: at the beginning, he wrecks everything in his path like he's a force of nature, capturing Din with easy and immediatedly proceeds to destroy the Temple of Seasons and then during the fight against him he's much stronger than Veran: high damage, immune to regular attacks and unleashing tornadoes on Link, that's before even transforming into a giant dragon.
You go for Ages first and Season second, you think Twinrova underestimated link at the start by as he defeats Veran and resort to summoning a much more dangerous minion in the form Onox, don't really feel the same regard having Veran serving as main villain after Link defeated Onox.
 
Strangolapreti said:
Would you believe me if I told you O find more interesting her other forms?
Mainly her second one, it always made me believe she was an evil great fairy or something alike and I wish they expanded on her origin.

Yeah, its the whole RETURN OF GANON thing that I only mentioned because I thought it was unecessary to detail.

Still about the Oracle games, I think it still makes more sense for Seasons to be set after Ages because of the way the introduction scene and the villain:
In Ages, you find Nayru surrounded by animals and there's only her boyfriend to guard her, even during a linked game, while Din's crew reveals you to be bodyguards when you interact with them in a linked game, and Impa follows the group as well, instead of immediately getting possessed.
Also, despite being worse than Veran as a main villain, Onox is still more formidable: at the beginning, he wrecks everything in his path like he's a force of nature, capturing Din with easy and immediatedly proceeds to destroy the Temple of Seasons and then during the fight against him he's much stronger than Veran: high damage, immune to regular attacks and unleashing tornadoes on Link, that's before even transforming into a giant dragon.
You go for Ages first and Season second, you think Twinrova underestimated link at the start by as he defeats Veran and resort to summoning a much more dangerous minion in the form Onox, don't really feel the same regard having Veran serving as main villain after Link defeated Onox.
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There's evidence both ways, which is why I like the games so much and really don't think there's a true order. Some stuff that favors Ages > Seasons I can think of offhand
  • Link meets possessed Impa in Ages. If he had met her in Seasons, he would likely recognize something was off. However since this is first time meeting her, nothing is strange.
  • Zelda, knowing that Nayru was attacked, sends her knights to spirit Din to Hyrule, providing an explanation as to why they're with her in Seasons to begin with
  • We learn why Ambi's lover never returned. The Pirates wound up in the Sea of No Return then died. Link helps them escape and they head to Holodrum, shipwrecking and getting stuck in Subeosia. Ambi later reunites with the Captain in the linked game,
  • Great Moblin began on Rolling Ridge, harvesting bomb flower that the Gorons began growing after Link saved the Elder. He's defeated and retreats to his fortress in Holodrum. where he is completely wiped out and forced to start from scratch.
  • Bippin's ancestors are from Lynna Village. It makes more sense that they would move from Labrynna to Holodrum in the linked game, instead of at some point going from Lynna Village/City, to Horon Village, and back to Lynna City.
  • To the above point. Veran is defeated but does light the Flame of Despair by the end of the game. They bring in Onyx to ruin Holodrum, and he succeeds in lighting the Flame of Destruction by the sixth dungeon - they went from subterfuge and a long game to a guy who just barged in, fucked shit up, and refused to elaborate.
 
Strangolapreti said:
I guess the final code at the end of the game exists exactly for the player to then experience the oracle games in opposite order, that's also a requirement if you want the Victory ring and get all heart containers in both games.
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Feels like that's the intent. Hero Mode doesn't change anything except the extra heart and ring IIRC.
 
Let's put aside that remakes are gay and cringe, we know the OoT remake is happening whether we like it or not. What do you wish from it?
Personally I have never been a big fan of the original, I played it and the 3D remake, but I have always been more of an ALttP and WindWaker guy. I think going faithful is useless since any archaic piece of design has already been addressed in the 3DS remaster. Which is why I would like them to just go Metroid Zero Mission/Star Fox Zero/Super Castlevania 4 and just deliver a new game with the same premise which stands alongside, not overwrite the original.
So, my wishes in this context are:
- Hyrule Field not a literal empty plane, a dense designed environment like ALttP's overworld
- Bosses are not "hit with item, slash 3 times"x3.
- Normal combat not a waiting simulator, more something with the spirit of TP with an original take, just make the enemies match the expanded moveset.
- More child Link stuff which gives you reasons to go back and forth in the second half of the game
If they have to do a faithful remake, then I really wouldn't know what to ask. Probably not even getting it if it's just upscaled/Unreal engin'd OoT3D
 
Wujime said:
- Hyrule Field not a literal empty plane, a dense designed environment like ALttP's overworld
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I think think if you're going to fix anything about OOT, making Hyrule Field more interesting should be at the top of the list. It was impressively big in 1998, but I think that's the part of the game that has aged the worst. Even something as simple as sprinkling around a few more enemies and some npcs and minigames, and making the grottos hidden around a bit more interesting.
 
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