Diseased #Comicsgate - The Culture Wars Hit The Funny Books!

[RockVolnutt]

I read Green Lantern Corps. Part way through an arc it is revealed the villains were cyborg superman and some guy with big teeth. I was assumed to know who they were, what their motivations were, and why they should be stopped.

In another comic I read, part of the plot was resolved when a character from another book took over the comic for an issue or 2 and sorted out many of the heroes problems. That same comic series had a rushed ending that left the door open for a sequel. From what I read they cut it short to work on another project.

That's how it happens. It's plot lines being resolved in another book, characters turning up out of nowhere and we're expected to know, or bullshit that reads like it was pulled out of the writers arse but is actually a reference to something that happened years ago.

You could argue I was unlucky, but I don't think that's the case. Spoony goes on a tangent about comics in one of his counter monkey videos, and I see similar stories repeated elsewhere. I don't think people would be saying these things if it didn't happen. Linkara's review of countdown goes into these problems as the entire series is basically an ad for other books.

Do you remember which issue of Green Lantern Corps you're talking about? Considering you brought up Countdown, which was an Event book, I'm guessing that was another Event. Those aren't typical and are known to be cash grabs. It could totally be a writer fucking up though.

The Big Two do them way too much but not every issue of every seroes is a mega-crossover.

 

[Rebis]

I think part of the problem is that there is an audience for continuity porn, because let’s face it, continuity porn is fun if you’re in the know.

I brought up Legion of Super-Heroes a while back in this thread, and I think the book Final Crisis: Legion of 3 Worlds is the perfect example of what I’m talking about; continuity porn that the fans (including me) enjoy, but is utterly incomprehensible to the casual reader. It markets itself as a Final Crisis tie-in, but really has absolutely nothing to do with Final Crisis. It features Legion characters from 3 different continuities, Superboy-Prime, Conner Kent, and Bart Allen. Meaning in order to fully enjoy the book you need to have at least a working knowledge of the past ~50 years of Legion continuity (several volumes and different reboots) and Infinite Crisis. (which also requires a whole bunch of pre-reading to understand) Oh, and it follows on from an earlier Legion appearances in a JLA/JSA crossover and Action Comics so those are important too.

And all of that is great for somebody who is invested in those characters and was already following all of those threads anyways. But for somebody who just saw Mon-El on that Supergirl show they watch and picked up and picked up a random Legion comic to learn more, it’s just about the worst choice possible. It’s a struggle between making every volume self-contained and accessible for normies vs giving hardcore fans that dopamine hit of seeing something they remember. It’s something I think the movies have done a very good job at actually. Infinity War picks up on all these threads all over the place, but anyone can watch it.

 

[One Man Bland]

Do you remember which issue of Green Lantern Corps you're talking about? Considering you brought up Countdown, which was an Event book, I'm guessing that was another Event. Those aren't typical and are known to be cash grabs. It could totally be a writer fucking up though.

The Big Two do them way too much but not every issue of every seroes is a mega-crossover.

While I haven't personally been keeping up with GLC as of late, but after looking it up, it looks like it wasn't part of an event so much that the writer decided arbitrarily to introduce plot points that were relevant to other plot points that were currently happening in the Superman comics with no forewarning. So unless you were reading current Superman and knew all the backstory to Cyborg Superman up until this point, that development would make absolutely no sense to you.

 

[RockVolnutt]

While I haven't personally been keeping up with GLC as of late, but after looking it up, it looks like it wasn't part of an event so much that the writer decided arbitrarily to introduce plot points that were relevant to other plot points that were currently happening in the Superman comics with no forewarning. So unless you were reading current Superman and knew all the backstory to Cyborg Superman up until this point, that development would make absolutely no sense to you.

Don't think it is as I'm not seeing any "guy with big teeth".

 

[One Man Bland]

Don't think it is as I'm not seeing any "guy with big teeth".

Without knowing the exact comic @Judge Dredd was reading I can't say for certain who that is either (though from the context it might be the Ravagers), but as of yet I've found nothing that indicates that the Cyborg Superman thing is part of any event comics, as everything about those plot developments in GLC is connected to other plot developments going on in the current Superman and Action Comics runs with no event attached. Some articles are also claiming that this is part of DC's effort to connect their universe without the need for events in order to make it feel more like a shared universe; which in practice seems to lead to situations like this where the conflict stems from a completely different comic.

Even if this somehow isn't the book that Dredd was referring to, this is still a bullshit practice and doesn't exactly shake the stereotype that The Big Two spread what should be straight-forward continuity across several books in order to strong arm readers into buying more issues they likely wouldn't care about otherwise. I found a panel that sums it all up quite nicely:

 

[King Kobra]

Why Ms. Marvel looks like she is a granny in her mid-late 60's ?

I once heard a conspiracy theory (might even have been here) that the comics code authority had Marvel and DC backing and oddly specific rules in order to shut down their none super hero rivals like EC and Mad.

Frank Miller in his book with Will Eisner says that the rules of the Code were writter with the clear intent to bring EC down,since the EC standard was way higher than the one the other comics label like DC or Charlton had at the time
Eisner says instead that the Code was a rush job to avoid a goverment intervention and EC was caught in the crossfire because it was an easy target

 

[AnOminous]

Why Ms. Marvel looks like she is a granny in her mid-late 60's ?



Frank Miller in his book with Will Eisner says that the rules of the Code were writter with the clear intent to bring EC down,since the EC standard was way higher than the one the other comics label like DC or Charlton had at the time
Eisner says instead that the Code was a rush job to avoid a goverment intervention and EC was caught in the crossfire because it was an easy target

EC was funny and subversive, and comics really never recovered from the God goblins nuking it thanks to Fredric Wertham's fucking lies.

 

[TowinKarz]

Yeah, the industry rushed to adopt it for fear they'd be censured, and the rules they agreed to put publishers of gore/horror comics at a disadvantage as the mere mention of "wolfman" was forbidden, let alone werewolves. It was censored to such a degree that they refused to allow Marv Wolfman to put his own NAME on the cover of books he'd CREATED. They also made mention/depiction of vampirism or blood verboten as well, and it cratered EC hard because they had a very successful line of horror comics that suddenly couldn't show the mainstays of the genre.

I don't think they set out to destroy EC, but when they saw the way the wind was blowing, torpedoing a rival was probably a deal-maker at the end of the day if they still had reservations.

 

[Steamboat_Bill]

EC was funny and subversive, and comics really never recovered from the God goblins nuking it thanks to Fredric Wertham's fucking lies.

Indeed, brother, indeed.

 

[King Kobra]

EC was funny and subversive, and comics really never recovered from the God goblins nuking it thanks to Fredric Wertham's fucking lies.

(Orlando's Art was breathtaking btw)

Comparing things like "Judgment Day" or Krigstein "Master Race" to all the soy filled woke shit we have today should tell you something how bad the medium has fallen

 

[damian]

Iron Sights International:

Spoiler

Spoiler

Spoiler

 

[damian]

JDA #HUMBLEBRAG:
https://archive.fo/KteXl

You’re very smug for someone most people know for being Vox Day’s Ball washer:

Wanna tell us about that time you saved kitties from a burning building while fighting bank robbers and help deliver babies from a bus full of pregnant women?

 

[kcbbq]

The Manga vs. Comics Debate(tm) seriously overestimates the quality of manga. Since the end of the licensing bubble the shitty stuff doesn't show up outside Japan anymore.

Source: I own the 12 (of 18 ) volumes of Eiken that made it to the US because reasons. I'd probably take The Social Justice League of America any day.

 

[Jetpack Himmler]

I brought up Legion of Super-Heroes a while back in this thread, and I think the book Final Crisis: Legion of 3 Worlds is the perfect example of what I’m talking about; continuity porn that the fans (including me) enjoy, but is utterly incomprehensible to the casual reader. It markets itself as a Final Crisis tie-in, but really has absolutely nothing to do with Final Crisis. It features Legion characters from 3 different continuities, Superboy-Prime, Conner Kent, and Bart Allen. Meaning in order to fully enjoy the book you need to have at least a working knowledge of the past ~50 years of Legion continuity (several volumes and different reboots) and Infinite Crisis. (which also requires a whole bunch of pre-reading to understand) Oh, and it follows on from an earlier Legion appearances in a JLA/JSA crossover and Action Comics so those are important too.

Legion of Super-Heroes really got screwed when DC rebooted its universe after Crisis on Infinite Earths. The delicious irony was that it intended to streamline DC's supposedly complex continuity, but the rampant retcons were what created this mess that made their comics inaccessible to normies.

 

[Rebis]

Legion of Super-Heroes really got screwed when DC rebooted its universe after Crisis on Infinite Earths. The delicious irony was that it intended to streamline DC's supposedly complex continuity, but the rampant retcons were what created this mess that made their comics inaccessible to normies.

That’s been DC’s curse for years. Each “streamlining” continuity change just ends up creating more continuity hiccups in the long run. Legion may be the perfect example of that (the fucking pocket universe) but it’s far from the biggest one.

Look at the New 52, where some characters had their entire history erased, but some like Batman didn’t, but even Batman’s was weirdly squashed and stretched and certain elements (like one of the Robins) were removed. And it was such a mess they’ve now just had to say screw it and undo it all, meaning there’s now another whole layer of continuity you have to explain to somebody wanting to get into DC.

 

[HiddenFist]

The Manga vs. Comics Debate(tm) seriously overestimates the quality of manga. Since the end of the licensing bubble the shitty stuff doesn't show up outside Japan anymore.

Source: I own the 12 (of 18 ) volumes of Eiken that made it to the US because reasons. I'd probably take The Social Justice League of America any day.

We're not necessarily saying that manga as a whole has extremely high quality, it just looks that way compared to most of the comic industry considering that their standards have fallen badly. It also doesn't help the fact that many of these comics have tie ins to get the full story, rotation of writers that don't follow the previous issues, relaunches, reboots, continuity snarls, and renumbering (most on Marvel's part) that make it harder for the newer readers to understand the story.

 

[One Man Bland]

We're not necessarily saying that manga as a whole has extremely high quality, it just looks that way compared to most of the comic industry considering that their standards have fallen badly. It also doesn't help the fact that many of these comics have tie ins to get the full story, rotation of writers that don't follow the previous issues, relaunches, reboots, continuity snarls, and renumbering (most on Marvel's part) that make it harder for the newer readers to understand the story.

That and, with the sheer volume of manga out there and the wider variety of manga genres available, it’s statistically more likely to find an enjoyable manga than it is to find an enjoyable American comic.

This also means that American comics have a smaller margin of comic influences to be inspired by, hence why so much indie stuff still ends up hopelessly shackled to superheroes.

 

[Done]

They aren't entirely wrong when they say they helped Manga. They alienated much of the core comic book reading audience to the point that many of them chose to dip into manga instead. It's not the audience keeping the comic industry afloat, it's the expensive and annoying advertising, constant licensing of their properties (games, movies, tv shows, films) for decades, and the fact that the Big Two are owned by companies that are willing to keep their comic division afloat.

Honestly, this guy really has the points down for the comparison between manga and comics.
View attachment 620995

Holy fuck nigga how new is this comment?

This dude has a thread of his own here.

 

[Judge Dredd]

Don't think it is as I'm not seeing any "guy with big teeth".

I think it was Sinestro Corps War, it was the one where it ends with all the other colours appearing.

The guy with big teeth was the anti monitor, I think. It was a long time since I read it. Either way, the character had no real introduction beyond "It's the anti-monitor".

Okay, so we know the issues involved with continuity. So what are the solutions? Is it possible for American comics to adapt manga-style self-contained timelines with a definite beginning and (usually) end, but still keep the characters that both comic fans and the wider pop culture know and love?

I assume people at the Big Two are already aware of these concerns. Have they done anything to address them, or are they concerned with doing so because it would make their product too different - or, as RockVolnutt put it above…

The Marvel Cinematic Universe manages it without hijacking the movie.

But you don't have to get rid of it entirely. I don't think it's too much to ask for the occasional bit of restraint of keeping stories in their own books legible.

The Manga vs. Comics Debate(tm) seriously overestimates the quality of manga. Since the end of the licensing bubble the shitty stuff doesn't show up outside Japan anymore.

Source: I own the 12 (of 18 ) volumes of Eiken that made it to the US because reasons. I'd probably take The Social Justice League of America any day.

:powerlevel: I wanted to read Eiken but it's super rare and each book fetches triple digits. :powerlevel:

To expand on what @HiddenFist said. Even just counting crap, the fact that you can get a slice of life romance or a harem comedy or a dark fantasy with at least speaks to a greater verity and greater minimum standard of quality. Yes, the worst of the worse stay in Japan, but at least when you buy a bad sci-fi story you'll get bad sci-fi and not some anti-Trump screed.

 

[Incredible Crisis]

That’s been DC’s curse for years. Each “streamlining” continuity change just ends up creating more continuity hiccups in the long run. Legion may be the perfect example of that (the fucking pocket universe) but it’s far from the biggest one.

Look at the New 52, where some characters had their entire history erased, but some like Batman didn’t, but even Batman’s was weirdly squashed and stretched and certain elements (like one of the Robins) were removed. And it was such a mess they’ve now just had to say screw it and undo it all, meaning there’s now another whole layer of continuity you have to explain to somebody wanting to get into DC.

I would argue that the premise of someone completely removed from comics wanting to get into them is like trying to find someone feverishly into typewriters.

Beyond the politics of the given writer, the classic problem since the 90s has been getting someone into comics at all. The publishers have their heads up their asses so far that they forgot where their butter used to be breaded. Comics are not mainstream, but comic book characters are, strangely enough.

If they actually had to worry about the mass market, then they would make more accessible plotlines. But since their current audience is autistic and dumb enough to put up all the red string, things will never get fixed.