Serious LGBT Discussion

So I’ve been thinking. Obviously, I know what this site thinks of trannies (and I share the same opinion tbh) and I know what tumblr thinks of them. But what does the LGBT alphabet soup in the real world think of them?
 
So I’ve been thinking. Obviously, I know what this site thinks of trannies (and I share the same opinion tbh) and I know what tumblr thinks of them. But what does the LGBT alphabet soup in the real world think of them?
Most people just don't care. Or, if they do care, then they're too polite to voice their opinions and risk a social faux pas.

It's a very far cry from the cries of oppression you'll hear on tumblr or the "die die die" on kf (though I honestly believe most farmers are just negatively biased to the obvious bad examples on here).

If you go on grindr or whatever then yeah sure you'll run into a couple gay guys who are confused about what a "trans woman" or "trans man" is or wouldn't date you, but honestly the vast majority are chill as long as you don't flip out and accuse them of bigotry for not wanting to be with you. If you go onto tumblr and reddit and look up people's blog posts about hanging out with real lasbians or real gay men as a trans person, then you'll see a lot of them express some sort of shock around "they were so nice and didn't care about my identity!". I think it's because the trannies tend to hype up gays as evil oppressors more than the other way around.

If you don't pass, people who disagree with you will just quietly avoid you.
If you're at a support group and desperately need your "they" pronouns respected, again, people will either use them or strategically avoid interaction.

Like with most things, I think the internet just brings out the exceptional in everyone.
 
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So I’ve been thinking. Obviously, I know what this site thinks of trannies (and I share the same opinion tbh) and I know what tumblr thinks of them. But what does the LGBT alphabet soup in the real world think of them?

I can give you my experiences as a gay man who isn't in "the scene", isn't on any of the apps and has never been to a pride parade. Someone who hangs around with those sorts of people will probably give you a far more pro-trans answer.

My take: I understand why "allying" with the Trans movement made sense for Americans at the very, very start but long term it's more of a liability and a mistake. I personally believe Gender Dysphoria is a real thing, but that transition is not the answer. You can cut things off and add things on and some people can make themselves up to be very convincing, if not actually quite handsome or beautiful specimens, of the sex they want to be. That said, pumping yourself with chemicals and forcing a lifetime reliance upon them is inevitably going to make you ill (and even stopping before the op it will leave you with permanent damage), you're going to find it more than a challenge to get a date...It's not going to be easy, but there's nothing wrong with being a butch woman or an effeminate man.

LGB I know RL: At the coffee meeting I used to go to before it was overtaken by SJW's, everyone would strongly declare support for Trans. In private, the men (I didn't know the women as well, duh) who weren't SJW's to a man were anti-trans. Either they were like me in that they didn't think transitioning was the best treatment for dysphoria, or they'd had bad experiences with Trans to the point they practised the Pence rule both IRL and would ignore messages online from trans people for fear of being called out for something (calling them bigots for liking Drag Race, accusing them of transphobia for saying they only found biological men attractive etc).

I'm pretty much a social pariah in my local gay community in public because I'm openly critical when asked about trans, promiscuity and "the scene", but most of the men in it who haven't got a nose ring or blue hair I know at least semi-well have quietly shared their agreement on trans but don't want to be declared homophobic/transphobic/bigoted/abelist.
 
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I do wonder if anyone has had luck finding lgbt hangouts that aren’t infected by the raunchy SJW bug.

Not that it isn’t possible to find some good people within those groups, but the general vibe is so exceptional that I walk away feeling disgusted with myself and the “gay identity” more than anything else. The only time I seem find normal queer people is by chance, outside of organized gatherings.

In regard to the trans question, I don’t consider the cows in rat king to be real trans people. Their behavior doesn’t line up with what I’ve seen of trans people irl. They don’t seek attention like that, nor do they abuse their identity like it’s a shield for creepy behavior.

There are probably some exceptions but that’s more likely from the SJW influence than anything inherent.

(also, a bit of a powerlevel tangent)

I’ve been watching a teenage relative get surgery and hormone treatment over the past couple years. Female to male. That’s a hard life.

I don’t know what gender dysphoria feels like, so maybe I’m downplaying it too much. However, I can’t help but think it might be more effective to see a therapist and learn some exercises to deal with the feeling. Something other than self mutilation.

Then again, I can’t meditate myself into heterosexuality so maybe it’s something like that. I honestly don’t get it.
 
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I do wonder if anyone has had luck finding lgbt hangouts that aren’t infected by the raunchy SJW bug.

Not that it isn’t possible to find some good people within those groups, but the general vibe is so exceptional that I walk away feeling disgusted with myself and the “gay identity” more than anything else. The only time I seem find normal queer people is by chance, outside of organized gatherings.

I've given up trying to find a LGBT hangout that isn't into alphabet soupism. There are a few gay/bi men I stayed in contact with because they hadn't drank the kool aid and ended up not going up anymore themselves. Makes dating hard seeing as I'm not on any of the apps either (the downsides of not telling everyone you're gay for the sake of it, I'm not closeted) but it wasn't worth listening to the oppression olympics again either.

I think by definition a club that identifies as LGBT is mostly going to attract the exceptional "scream queens".

There are other places gays seem to naturally congregate; anything to do with theater, drama, furries, social jobs (teachers, childcare, nurses etc) but lacking the tab it seems to discourage the loudest who aren't explicitly told how "valid" they are there.
 
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My take: I understand why "allying" with the Trans movement made sense for Americans at the very, very start but long term it's more of a liability and a mistake.

I’m a Finnish letter B and I agree that T should be it’s own thing separated from other letters. T needs are just so different than what the other letters go trough that it just makes sense. To be honest I for the longest time didn’t know why it was included in the first place. While I now know and get that transwomen and gaymen were seen as the same thing and hanged around the same underground bars and stuff for protection, that time is long over. Society at least in west has accepted LGBs as a not big deal and is at least sympathetic to Ts mental health. Having issues around your gender is so different from wanting to date members of your own sex. If we found a cure to trans world would be a better place and we found cure for gays world wouldn’t be better or worse off.

What I have observed, the little I interact with the queer scene, is that most gay men are fairly fed up with trans, both real and trenders and lesbians fall into two categories: a) sympathizers that almost baby transgenders b) those that are creeped out by all the girl dick. Bis kinda stay out and date whatever, only really getting involved if they are together with a transperson. There is general mood of that trans issues eat all attention.
 
I do wonder if anyone has had luck finding lgbt hangouts that aren’t infected by the raunchy SJW bug.

Not that it isn’t possible to find some good people within those groups, but the general vibe is so exceptional that I walk away feeling disgusted with myself and the “gay identity” more than anything else. The only time I seem find normal queer people is by chance, outside of organized gatherings.

Funny you should mention that.

Who Crushed the Lesbian Bars? A New Minefield of Identity Politics

Portland, an LGBTQ haven, doesn't have a single dance party that caters exclusively to women seeking women. Good luck starting one.

In the past two years, events catering to lesbians, like the monthly meet-up Fantasy Softball League, have been targeted online as unsafe spaces for trans women and others who don't identify with feminine pronouns. This past summer, semi-regular parties for lesbians, like Lesbian Night at Old Town's CC Slaughters, changed their names and focus to avoid controversy and be more inclusive. And lesbian-owned bars that draw lesbian customers, like Escape, shun the label so as not to offend.

The fights over language may seem academic and obscure if you're not part of them. But they are increasingly the battlegrounds over how people see themselves and how the world sees and treats them—and those views strain friendships, shutter events and start internet flame wars.

Trish Bendix, former editor of AfterEllen, an online publication about lesbian, queer and bisexual women in the media, lived in Portland from 2011 to 2014. She says she has never been around so many queer people in her life, but she was often among a minority who identified as lesbian.

"I often feel like lesbians are forgotten or left behind," she says, "and sometimes it feels lonely."
 

Yeah, it also doesn’t help that straight men have always targeted lesbian hangout spaces because it’s a fetish for them. My local gay bar’s yelp page has a good handful of gay women listing incidents of guys coming in just to bother them. This sort of thing is also the reason why some dating apps require a voice or photo verification now. I think LesPark is the one I saw getting shunned for it. More chat servers are starting to require that sort of verification as well. Otherwise random straight dudes will start sliding into your DMs. The trans card just gives these guys a free pass to remove those filters.

There’s this “villainous” category of predominantly queer women called TERFs now. (Do people even unironically apply that label to themselves or is it just a slur?) Either way, I can get why it’s a thing. I don’t think anyone really wants to exclude trans people, but the exceptional types seem determined to ruin it for everyone else.

They can identify as whatever gender they wish, but at the end of the day, they’re still shoving dicks into the faces of people who don’t want them.
 
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But are the Terfs wrong?

Is it right to push a child towards sex changes if they're just a girl that likes things traditionally associated with boys or vice versa? Isn't gender supposed to be a social construct? Why the emphasis on encouraging sex changes? Trans-activists are literally saying that a biological girl can't do boy things because them doing so must mean they're a guy.

Is it right to allow known pedophiles like Yaniv to freely wander into any place where women demand privacy from men? Is it right for women athletes and prisoners to get the shit beaten out of them by biological men who are physically superior? Is it right that this transition process literally leads to depression, anxiety and suicide? Is it right that these people are pressured to buy expensive medications that all of society must subsidize? I get that the fat activists have ruined it as of late but shouldn't we aspire to body-acceptance regarding things that can't really be changed? Should we be concerned about the high % of autism among transpeople? Should we be concerned about how transitioning is irreversible and almost never succeeds?

Transpeople must be allowed to exist because this society aspires to freedom but that doesn't mean we should think its good or healthy.
 
But are the Terfs wrong?

Is it right to push a child towards sex changes if they're just a girl that likes things traditionally associated with boys or vice versa? Isn't gender supposed to be a social construct? Why the emphasis on encouraging sex changes? Trans-activists are literally saying that a biological girl can't do boy things because them doing so must mean they're a guy.

Is it right to allow known pedophiles like Yaniv to freely wander into any place where women demand privacy from men? Is it right for women athletes and prisoners to get the shit beaten out of them by biological men who are physically superior? Is it right that this transition process literally leads to depression, anxiety and suicide? Is it right that these people are pressured to buy expensive medications that all of society must subsidize? I get that the fat activists have ruined it as of late but shouldn't we aspire to body-acceptance regarding things that can't really be changed? Should we be concerned about the high % of autism among transpeople? Should we be concerned about how transitioning is irreversible and almost never succeeds?

Transpeople must be allowed to exist because this society aspires to freedom but that doesn't mean we should think its good or healthy.

It’s hard to say whether physically changing is the best solution because I can’t empathize with the condition. It it isn’t, then the social pressure to do it is bad. I know my cousin’s conservative parents wouldn’t have let him transition if he hadn’t threatened suicide, but the process has created a whole new array of mental and physical health issues. I can’t tell if he’s better off for it.

In a perfect world, for people who do insist on publicly changing their gender, I’d expect to extend the same courtesy to trans people that straight women do when I’m still allowed to use female locker rooms/ restrooms/ whatever. But trans people should know to avert their eyes just like everyone else.

Unfortunately that can’t happen right now because cis ladies who get harassed or made uncomfortable by people like Yaniv are bullied or sued into silence (how ironic).

If we’re defining a terf as someone who is solely critical of that dynamic, then yeah, they definitely have a point.

However, I’m not sure what terf is supposed to mean beyond that.

“Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminist”

Ignoring the trans exclusionary part, what is “radical” supposed to entail?
 
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“Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminist”

hell, most i can think is "radical" meaning they advocate that shit heavy, of course.

overall terfs kinda confuse me. how you gonna advocate for LGBT equality and freedom when you tellin a part of the community they cant be equal or free? shit just seems real fuckin hypocritical to me... not that they don't have a point, but i don't totally agree. i say let people do what they want. it ain't affecting me at all at the end of the day if someone ain't got dysphoria and they doin shit like hormones and surgery. if they have any regrets thats theyre problem lmao
 
overall terfs kinda confuse me. how you gonna advocate for LGBT equality and freedom when you tellin a part of the community they cant be equal or free? shit just seems real fuckin hypocritical to me... not that they don't have a point, but i don't totally agree. i say let people do what they want. it ain't affecting me at all at the end of the day if someone ain't got dysphoria and they doin shit like hormones and surgery. if they have any regrets thats theyre problem lmao

There's no inequality to not allowing trans-identified men to identify as women or trans-identified women to identify as men unless you already believe that men and women aren't equal. We're not saying that a feminine man who wants to wear makeup, grow boobs and go by Jennifer or something is inferior to or less of a man than other men. It's the trans activists who are saying that makes him less of a man, indeed, no man at all.

I don't really believe in gender identity as a concept anymore (which is different to saying I don't believe in gender dysphoria, I mean that people don't have some inborn, nebulous "feeling" that defines their gender, since gender is the product of the roles society has imposed on human beings according to sex rather than a intrinsic value), but I don't care if an adult wants to mutilate their genitals whether they are "really transgender" or not. It's body modification.

But the trans community wants to have its cake and eat it too by suggesting that transition isn't a body modification, it's a treatment for a medical condition, forcing insurance to cover it, and at the same time dismantling existing forms of gatekeeping. Medical professionals are supposed to do no harm and allowing a person to start hrt based on demand only is analogous to a man walking in saying he wants a colostomy bag because he has a sexual fetish for humiliation and the surgeon complying. Doctors are liable for any damage done if patient decides later that no it wasn't really worth it to tear out his rectum. Even an unnecessary x-ray is avoided in case the patient later gets cancer and sues the doctor for malpractice.

The loophole to this is "informed consent" where client basically fills out a form saying "you know the risks and now you can't sue me for malpractice if you don't like it tee hee" but this is absolutely not medicine. It's sales. It's not acting in anybody's best interest and is just sidestepping instead of addressing the poor balance of potential benefit and risk to harm.

On the other hand there are other radical feminists who believe that hormones and surgery should always be illegal on the basis that they are unnatural and deleterious to health, and I don't care to defend them. It's paternalistic.
 
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There's no inequality to not allowing trans-identified men to identify as women or trans-identified women to identify as men unless you already believe that men and women aren't equal. We're not saying that a feminine man who wants to wear makeup, grow boobs and go by Jennifer or something is inferior to or less of a man than other men. It's the trans activists who are saying that makes him less of a man, indeed, no man at all.

ah, i see. my apologies. im pretty dumb with understanding this stuff.

i kinda agree with you. it IS most definitely body modification, but i say as long as a trans person understands that and aren't deluded by their goal then that's fine by me. they understand the risks/circumstances in that case, however i haven't seen that too much among the trans people i've met, sadly. like i said, they do they. aint got nothin against that, it dont affect me at the end of the day
 
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I wonder what trans kiwis think about this conversation. They’ve been quiet lately.
i dunno bruh, i ain't even know they exist on the site if im gonna be 100 with you. they got guts to come here, and i don't mean that as a threat, i mean that as damn they probably get harassed a lot, sadly.
 
It’s hard to say whether physically changing is the best solution because I can’t empathize with the condition. It it isn’t, then the social pressure to do it is bad. I know my cousin’s conservative parents wouldn’t have let him transition if he hadn’t threatened suicide, but the process has created a whole new array of mental and physical health issues. I can’t tell if he’s better off for it.

In a perfect world, for people who do insist on publicly changing their gender, I’d expect to extend the same courtesy to trans people that straight women do when I’m still allowed to use female locker rooms/ restrooms/ whatever. But trans people should know to avert their eyes just like everyone else.

Unfortunately that can’t happen right now because cis ladies who get harassed or made uncomfortable by people like Yaniv are bullied or sued into silence (how ironic).

If we’re defining a terf as someone who is solely critical of that dynamic, then yeah, they definitely have a point.

However, I’m not sure what terf is supposed to mean beyond that.

“Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminist”

Ignoring the trans exclusionary part, what is “radical” supposed to entail?

I think TERF is basically "bitch" with a veneer of respectability. It's what troons use to denigrate women while denying they're actually doing it.

As far as transitioning goes, I think the high levels of desistance (60-90%) should be a major sign to slow down on the rush to medical transition, as should the high comorbidity of other psychological problems that do not improve upon transitioning beyond an initial honeymoon period. It would be interesting to see how trenders would react to a placebo drug to treat their "dysphoria", but I don't think we'll ever find out.
 
“Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminist”

Ignoring the trans exclusionary part, what is “radical” supposed to entail?
Powerleveling a bit...

"Radical feminists" believe in sex-based oppression. Following from that they believe that female sex work is oppressive and porn leads men to demean women and lose their ability to be compatible in a mature sexual relationship. Adherence to that part varies, the important thing is just that they see oppression as being rooted in sex.

Ergo, because they believe the oppression of women has its roots in sex, not gender, they're not inclined to accept members of the male sex as one of their own. When (I should just stop saying "they," is it very transparent?) they are told from the pro-trans side that males are now allowed to decide what a woman is, it's absolute anathema.

edit: I should mention, radfem is better understood next to liberal feminism, which is basically that women can act to better themselves in society to attain equality. The loss of "man vs woman" means that... basically troons pile on and say "we're women! we're acting and helping to lift up women!" and generally being a distraction.
 
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