Game of Thrones Thread

i'm thinking about it, and it's hilarious. The writers wanted to have it both ways and ended up contradicting themselves. They wanted to portray a realistic step into modernity via the elective monarchy bullshit, but in order to subvert expectations and give everyone a happy ending, they made the omniscient immortal a god-king, who has the potential to solve all of Westeros' problems (provided they are smart enough to ask the right questions), so now it's a question of whether Westeros will utilize their omniscient god-king, vote him out/assassinate him, or just revert back to usurping by force.

Also, because of the worst plot convenience known to mankind, there's the BLOODTHIRSTY Dothraki and Unsullied, who, after having their leader assassinated, don't kill the assassin, don't bow down to the assassin (which would have been so badass and yet another reason for Jon to be King, Argh!), don't destroy the homeland of the assassin (even though their leader just told them that destroying liberating homelands is their new destiny), but instead go off to live peacefully and free slaves, because that was Dany's mission (despite Dany making it clear that her mission is to nuke liberate cities, and the Unsullied and Dothraki partaking in one such "liberation" already).
 
lol @Safir

Care to explain why you think people are born with exactly the same abilities and aptitudes?

It doesn't, it makes it worse now, because weak king can't force anyone give up shit or move resources around. Everyone will be sitting on their pile of food/gold/shit and care nothing WTF is happening north of the wall or whatever other threat it. If people thought that Cersei didn't help shit, you just wait.

You're both assuming that elections by definition have people voting purely selfishly/corruptly. Now certainly some votes will be cast that way, but just like we've seen corruption, we've also seen plenty of people that were not so selfishly motivated and did genuinely try to do good, with Jon being one of them. It is certainly possible that some people do try to vote in competent good leadership.

It's a bit of a moot point, because mr. 3 eyed CIA is going to live for another hundred years probably. It isn't just seeing the past, present and future, it was also a being known for sorcery.
 
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It's established that those with Bran's gift can live for centuries. Nothing says that electing a new king will become annual. Nothing rules out cultivating more greenseers/wargs/magic men from Sansa's descendants.

Well no, Bloodraven has only lived that long because he's got a weirwood up his arse and through his eyesocket ,though that costs money so he probably looks normal in the show.
 
Well no, Bloodraven has only lived that long because he's got a weirwood up his arse and through his eyesocket ,though that costs money so he probably looks normal in the show.

That is debatable; he was already 77 when he left the nightwatch. And who is to say he won't jump to someone new, like he jumped to Bran? With sufficient foresight he can keep himself being elected.
 
The ASOIAF (or book readers) subreddit has some really good discussion on how asinine the Mad Queen plotline is.

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It really was horribly written.
 
As has been pointed out in this thread, Mad Queen Daenerys can easily make perfect sense with the proper build up, in particular having a vengeful broken Tyrion whispering in her ear leads to a great arc where expectations twisted them into what they were unfairly labeled as before. I can see Martin doing that for sure.

It's just not WHAT A TWEEST shocking, which is all D&D care about.
 
The ASOIAF (or book readers) subreddit has some really good discussion on how asinine the Mad Queen plotline is.

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It really was horribly written.

I agree that it was poorly written, but only in later seasons. There was plenty of foreshadowing of it in earlier seasons.
Whoever wrote that on reddit is wrong about some of the details. Particularly burning slavers is a notable one. Why do slavers get burned but not rapists? It all comes down to moral authority. For example, it's a grave moral crime to either kinslay or kingslay, but people aren't necessarily killed for it, let alone burned alive. Dany's story has always been one where she takes full moral authority as a king or queen would. She stopped the raping from the Dothraki, because she deemed it wrong and then later she burned miri miz duur, because she was wronged by her. Burning her alive and using it as a kind of blood magic sacrifice is no small thing. This was when she and Drogo were planning on procreating a "stallion that mounts the world" and for their son to pillage and rape everything.

Her threats to Qarth to burn them all alive is also no small matter, because it shows you where her thoughts go when she is desperate. This is one of the ways that the writing is bad, because there is little reason for Dany to be desperate to burn king's landing. She was created into a straw-man villain rather an iron man villain, one with good motivations where you can kinda see why they chose that way.

The first slavers she burnt, without them she wouldn't even have an army. The only people who were willing to deal with her and trade to give her deployable power. And she burned them alive for it rather than making an honest trait. It is alright because they were insulting her behind her back, I suppose. Again, killing someone under hospitality (she was a guest in the city) is a grave crime in westeros, so much so that it is a plot point in the book (I heard) with people being deeply disgusted by the red wedding; killing while under hospitality rules.

And if you say; well that's westeros! This is essos! Well in most of essos slavery isn't against moral laws, so it begs the question even more why she imposes westerosi moral law on slaver's bay. Again her law. She knows what's good and bad. She has the moral authority.

That's not even the end to it. What about Daario Naaharis? Who is so struck by her, that he decides to murder his fellow leaders of the second sons and present their heads to her. What does she do to someone who murdered his allies for her? Take him into her bed (eventually). Because she deemed it was good. She had the moral authority. Killing her enemies was good.

Ruthless and mad are also not mutually exclusive, you could have a pinch of both. Look at Euron Greyjoy or maybe even the red viper (oberyn).

And they say fans are divided? I haven't heard anyone so far say that it was all done very well.

The last post is also distorting things slightly. She didn't kill the masters who crucified children. She CRUCIFIED masters that crucified children. In gazing too long into the abyss the abyss gazed into her. And once you're willing to crucify those that break your moral law, shouldn't people be happy that all they got was being crushed by a building?

And they can fuck off with it being a disservice to martin. He had about a decade to finish this all. Fuck. A decade ago. Look at all the things you've done last decade. I know writing books ain't easy, but fuck that's a lot of time. If anything, Martin did a disservice to the showrunners and the fans. This isn't a story about the Prince-that-was-promised, but about the books-that-were-promised.
 
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There's no justification for Dany going mad. 'Slight Hints' does not equal justification. As her character is now, it is utterly out of character for her to do what she did. In any media, the strength of that media relies on its context. There is no context for Dany to go insane. We have to make assumptions and leaps. Her descent into madness needed to be shown. It wasn't. She hears some bells and burns people to death.

She was brutal towards her enemies, but she was always shown to care about innocent civilians. She burned soldiers who wouldn't bow, but they were enemy combatants. There is no precedent in her arc for what she did. And the fact that she was brutal towards nobility does not equate to being brutal towards women and children,

Not to mention, everyone who says 'SHE WAS ALWAYS GOING TO GO MAD HURRR' forgets that King's Landing is her fucking capital city. The LITERAL seat of her power. And she burns it to the ground. Let me re-iterate. She not only kills women and children, but she destroys her own capital city. Dany is not that fucking re.tarded. It makes no fucking sense. Narrative wise, it is complete ignorance of her arc and she is a completely different character.

In fact, narrative wise, all these characters are different. They aren't the same characters at all. Jon would have slaughtered the unsullied on the spot. He would have ordered his Northmen to start fucking murdering Dothraki and Unsullied. He would have went to war over this. But nope, she's 'muh queen'. Its fucking re.tarded. Tyrion was neutered because no fucking way would he betray Varys. And Varys wouldn't get caught like a fucking dunce to some newb queen.

Anyone who thinks this was good or tries to justify it has no understanding of storytelling or characterization or plot. This was OBJECTIVELY bad. If you admit you have shit taste, fine. But if you're ignorant to why this was bad, you have absolutely no idea what story-telling is, what makes a good piece of narrative fiction. There's a reason why EVERY. SINGLE. ACTOR. Fucking hated this season. Because all of their development was destroyed. They're saying 'fuck anyone who didn't like it' because HBO's lawyers ran up to them screaming. That's the only fucking reason. They were shit-talking it previously for a fucking reason.

I feel bad for all of the actors, because all of their narrative arcs got destroyed to force an outcome that wasn't organic in the least. You require justification for what she did. No justification for killing innocents. No justification for burning down her own capital city. No justification for her going 'we need more living space' Khlaeesi. They wanted this finale and ignored 7 seasons to do it. Like I said before, it doesn't matter if their intention was her going 'mad queen'. There is no justification in her character arc. She's indicated she'll rule by blood and fire, but her greatest fear was becoming her father and just indiscriminately killing people. She just throws that fear away? No. Makes no fucking narrative or character sense. If you wanted Mad Queen, she should just be absolutely batshit, mumbling over her words, completely disheveled. That's the only way this excuse works. Yes, they were going for mad queen. They didn't earn it, therefore its shit and there's no justification.

Its trash. Season 8 is garbage that was rushed as fast as they could with the simplest plots they could and to 'subvert' expectations as much as they could. And in doing that, they butchered the entire rest of the show. Game of Thrones is actually unwatchable now because of Season 8. There's no point in watching it because all the character development that came before it is meaningless.
 
She was brutal towards her enemies, but she was always shown to care about innocent civilians. She burned soldiers who wouldn't bow, but they were enemy combatants. There is no precedent in her arc for what she did. And the fact that she was brutal towards nobility does not equate to being brutal towards women and children,

Why not?

She had none of the reluctance in killing those that opposed her (unlike for example Jon or Eddard, both who risked their lives for what were essentially enemies).

Why does that noble status of her enemies matter?

What exactly made the Khal's she bruned alive enemy combatants? That was a coup. Same with the slave masters that traded her an army.

The only time when she did put her own interests at risk in the name of justice, is when she executed a former slave for killing a master, and it cost her her stability and the love of the people. For the greatest part Dany hadn't really been tested.

One of the greater failings is that we didn't really get to experience Dany's alienation and frustration that she felt in westeros. With better writing and time there could be so many more instances where she felt out of place or where she tried to do things in an essos way and was rebuffed in a westeros way. Most of all, I think her 2nd dragon should have died during the fight, so that for once a dragon's death could have some real emotional ramifications and have a stronger justification for torching the city. Though seeing Emilia's short range of acting... that is perhaps debatable if it would really have worked. Particularly if the army had surrendered, the bells had been rung.... the two dragons landed on some builidings.

And then a commoner had seized one of the scorpions and shot a dragon. That would have been a perfect Franz Ferdinand type murder that resulted in catastrophic reprisal. Then she would have real reason to be angry with her council that councilled mercy on the city. It would be just the right push to protect herself and drogon with more severe measures.

In fact, narrative wise, all these characters are different. They aren't the same characters at all. Jon would have slaughtered the unsullied on the spot. He would have ordered his Northmen to start fucking murdering Dothraki and Unsullied.

Good fucking catch. He took swords to the heart for exactly that kind of decision.

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I don't think mad queen, in the way that aerys (or hodor) was mad is comparable. But I do think the roots for her being selfishly involved with her own feels and sense of morality has been there ever since she got freed from her brother's care. They could have played off that, but instead they went with the poor characterizations you describe well.

Its trash. Season 8 is garbage that was rushed as fast as they could with the simplest plots they could and to 'subvert' expectations as much as they could. And in doing that, they butchered the entire rest of the show. Game of Thrones is actually unwatchable now because of Season 8. There's no point in watching it because all the character development that came before it is meaningless.

Season 1, 2 and 3 are still pretty fun to watch. It's like the matrix, just stop at the right time and it's good.
 
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I take back my previous comment where I said the Dothraki were bothering me the most. What is now bothering me the most is why if Drogon has the intelligence to recognize that Dany's lust for power was what truly killed her and symbolically destroy the Iron Throne, why didn't he refuse to nuke everyone in King's Landing? The dragon is smart enough to understand metaphors and poetic justice but not to understand that torching children is a bad thing? They were shown to have a fair amount of agency in Essos so it's not as if they were completely enthralled to Daenerys.
 
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Why not?

She had none of the reluctance in killing those that opposed her (unlike for example Jon or Eddard, both who risked their lives for what were essentially enemies).

Why does that noble status of her enemies matter?

What exactly made the Khal's she bruned alive enemy combatants? That was a coup. Same with the slave masters that traded her an army.

The only time when she did put her own interests at risk in the name of justice, is when she executed a former slave for killing a master, and it cost her her stability and the love of the people. For the greatest part Dany hadn't really been tested.

One of the greater failings is that we didn't really get to experience Dany's alienation and frustration that she felt in westeros. With better writing and time there could be so many more instances where she felt out of place or where she tried to do things in an essos way and was rebuffed in a westeros way. Most of all, I think her 2nd dragon should have died during the fight, so that for once a dragon's death could have some real emotional ramifications and have a stronger justification for torching the city. Though seeing Emilia's short range of acting... that is perhaps debatable if it would really have worked. Particularly if the army had surrendered, the bells had been rung.... the two dragons landed on some builidings.

And then a commoner had seized one of the scorpions and shot a dragon. That would have been a perfect Franz Ferdinand type murder that resulted in catastrophic reprisal. Then she would have real reason to be angry with her council that councilled mercy on the city. It would be just the right push to protect herself and drogon with more severe measures.



Good fucking catch. He took swords to the heart for exactly that kind of decision.

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I don't think mad queen, in the way that aerys (or hodor) was mad is comparable. But I do think the roots for her being selfishly involved with her own feels and sense of morality has been there ever since she got freed from her brother's care. They could have played off that, but instead they went with the poor characterizations you describe well.



Season 1, 2 and 3 are still pretty fun to watch. It's like the matrix, just stop at the right time and it's good.

The noble status matters because her entire arc was breaking the chains of tyranny. The reason she did this was for the common good and the suffering of the people under them. In the earlier seasons, she's incredibly reluctant to murder women and children and men of her enemies.

The status of who she kills definitely matters, especially if we're talking medieval ruler ship. There's no way that the people can be culpable because they're chained by their rulers. Killing nobles and those in charge is much different to murdering their subjects. I mean, if you kill the majority of people you want to rule, you really aren't ruling anything.

Besides, nobody can answer the fact that she destroyed HER OWN CAPITAL FUCKING CITY. FOR NO REASON. She blew up the seat of her power...why? At least the 'Mad King' had a reason for it, and it wasn't that he heard fucking bells. Also pretty much everyone in the show, from the most naive to the most cynical, has lost far more than Dany has. Dany also went through a lot of trauma as well. And she goes crazy and they don't because...her dad did? Oh, and she didn't go crazy. She was quite clear headed. She just got a case of 'the writers wanted to raze kings landing, so we've got to do this'. Also she went Nazi for no reason. That's not really crazy, that's being power-hungry. Completely out of character. There's no precedent for Khaleesi Hitler. I just don't buy the fact that she lost people and then decided to get revenge or 'go crazy'. Like I said, tons of characters lost more and were more naive than her, yet still fit their characterization. They just make her an angry teenager because they wanted to blow up King's Landing. Or not really blow it up, because apparently cities respawn now too.

Stannis was just as brutal as Dany was, yet he wasn't ever going to do what she did. There's simply no argument here. You don't plant seeds and then go, "LOOK AT MY BEAUTIFUL TREE". Shit doesn't work like that in storytelling. Just because the seeds were there doesn't make it so. They're trying to equate what she did to people in charge and her enemies equates to civilians. Also, how is it personal? She always seemed to understand that the people had no say in anything, so she killed them....why? They didn't elect Cersei, they didn't bring Euron over. If it were personal, you go it, grab Cersei our by the hair and torture the fuck out of her. That's personal. This is just stupid.

Also Jon is butchered x2 because it takes a ten minute fucking scene for Tyrion to convince him that Dany killing women and children is 'bad'. God damn.

There's no going back. It isn't a complete story. You can't just watch them and stop. Its just a waste of time now.

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Also I should also add 'The Matrix' was not conceived as a trilogy. It was only thought of as a singular story. You can watch the first Matrix and forget about the rest because it wasn't designed that way. GoT was always intended to be a complete narrative. It's like reading a third of the book then closing it. It just wastes your time.

I take back my previous comment where I said the Dothraki were bothering me the most. What is now bothering me the most if why if Drogon has the intelligence to recognize that Dany's lust for power was what truly killed and symbolically destroy the Iron Throne, why didn't he refuse to nuke everyone in King's Landing? The dragon is smart enough to understand metaphors and poetic justice but not to understand that torching children is a bad thing?

Drogon just kind of forgot that people live in cities.
 
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The noble status matters because her entire arc was breaking the chains of tyranny. The reason she did this was for the common good and the suffering of the people under them. In the earlier seasons, she's incredibly reluctant to murder women and children and men of her enemies.

I agree with most of what you write, but not that her arc was breaking the chains of tyranny. She did not liberate slaver's bay, she took slaver's bay. She didn't break the chains of tyranny, she took the chains of tyranny. She tried to some degree lessen the tyranny, to be sure, but she didn't leave them for self-governance or identified nobles open to non-slavery governance, when she left, she had a loyalist (daario) control the part of slaver's bay that she controlled so that she could potentially return.

She stole the things offered to her in return for her leaving on a ship to westeros, she stole the slaves of the army, she pillaged qarth for goods and ships when only the necromancers and a broke sauron saxon ducksauce had crossed her. Most of her immorality is not really shown directly but only indirectly, but it was there nonetheless. Those were all themes of ambition.

And that's what they tried and failed to write for; ambition. That she had come to the conclusion that she could only rule over westeros and particularly, jon, the starks and tyrion, if she was properly to be feared. Her about face happened in that one scene where said "fear it is then".

And it's not true at all that everyone lost more than Dany either; she lost her husband, her brother, her fertility, her dearest servant, her dearest friendzone, she was starting to be rejected by her new love, she was an outsider in the land she planned to rule and was starting to feel the alienation. There was a lot of her loss to play off (if they wrote it well and if she acted it well). Her ambition to go full trotsky makes sense, even if it was flatly written. Her choice to burn the city and innocents, you're right, no reason for her to do so under the current circumstances and out of line with her character, even with her ambition and fire hunger included.
 
I was talking to some people who were pretty satisfied with the ending (they don't follow social media or any of that stuff at all, long story) and I was thinking about it, so I'm going to present this as a hypothetical so I don't fall into the trap that MauLer calls "writing the story for them:"

Would people have been happier with the ending if it had been framed as a coup instead of killing the mad queen? Think about this from an in-universe perspective: Dany has just taken the Iron Throne. She's won. But instead of sitting her happy ass down and actually enjoying the spoils of victory, she announces her intention to "break the wheel" across the world- IOW, having won the whole pot, she's not cashing out, she's just moving on to a bigger table. So her lieutenants are in a precarious position: if she goes to war with the rest of the world and loses, they lose with her. If she goes to war with the rest of the world and wins, and actually accomplishes that whole "breaking the wheel" thing and establishes the dictatorship of the proletariat, or whatever, where does that leave them? Remember, all of these people are beneficiaries of "the wheel" as she understands it.

But Dany is the lynchpin of the whole thing: her dragon, her armies, her ambition. If they kill her right now, they effectively cash out of the game, divide the pot between them, and actually enjoy the spoils of victory. All it takes is a single knife stroke and a small amount of not being retarded.

Ya know, framed this way, the real Game of Thrones really would be the friends they made along the way.
 
But Dany is the lynchpin of the whole thing: her dragon, her armies, her ambition. If they kill her right now, they effectively cash out of the game, divide the pot between them, and actually enjoy the spoils of victory. All it takes is a single knife stroke and a small amount of not being exceptional.

Ya know, framed this way, the real Game of Thrones really would be the friends they made along the way.

I wanted to read back as to what exactly she meant with "breaking the wheel".

First there was this interesting moment:


Her indignation when Tyrion calls himself and her terrible, her indignation is yet another example of her lack of self-reflection and ambition. And in that conversation too she readily threatens tyrion (perhaps jokingly) to kill him afterall. There are so many examples of her threats of violence in the series, perhaps I should make a compilation.

There too Tyrion suggested that maybe she could do more good staying in slaver's bay. But there too Dany chose to take the fight beyond to bigger pastures.

She identifies the wheel as being the noble families, so perhaps @Secret Asshole is right and I was wrong, that indeed she is mostly against the nobles.

But she also says: "I'm not going to stop the wheel, I'm going to break the wheel". Again threats. Ambitions of grandeur.

But yes, viewing things through the breaking of the wheel lens, you're absolutely right. There would have been plenty of incentive from the nobles to do away with her and even to do so selfishly rather than just as protection for the small folk. I suppose it is the most Dany-sympathetic ending one could imagine. I think the smallfolk who watched the show wouldn't have liked it because it would have felt like a bad- ending, rather than a bittersweet one. I think a lot of the somewhat more thoughtful would have liked that ending.
 
I agree with most of what you write, but not that her arc was breaking the chains of tyranny. She did not liberate slaver's bay, she took slaver's bay. She didn't break the chains of tyranny, she took the chains of tyranny. She tried to some degree lessen the tyranny, to be sure, but she didn't leave them for self-governance or identified nobles open to non-slavery governance, when she left, she had a loyalist (daario) control the part of slaver's bay that she controlled so that she could potentially return.

She stole the things offered to her in return for her leaving on a ship to westeros, she stole the slaves of the army, she pillaged qarth for goods and ships when only the necromancers and a broke sauron saxon ducksauce had crossed her. Most of her immorality is not really shown directly but only indirectly, but it was there nonetheless. Those were all themes of ambition.

And that's what they tried and failed to write for; ambition. That she had come to the conclusion that she could only rule over westeros and particularly, jon, the starks and tyrion, if she was properly to be feared. Her about face happened in that one scene where said "fear it is then".

And it's not true at all that everyone lost more than Dany either; she lost her husband, her brother, her fertility, her dearest servant, her dearest friendzone, she was starting to be rejected by her new love, she was an outsider in the land she planned to rule and was starting to feel the alienation. There was a lot of her loss to play off (if they wrote it well and if she acted it well). Her ambition to go full trotsky makes sense, even if it was flatly written. Her choice to burn the city and innocents, you're right, no reason for her to do so under the current circumstances and out of line with her character, even with her ambition and fire hunger included.

The problem is, as written, that really was her arc. If you want a show that makes you root for horrible fucking people and gradually shows you, 'Hey, these are horrible fucking people, you shouldn't root for them'. Breaking Bad and The Shield did it excellently. They had Vic Mackey shoot a cop in the face in the first episdoe. It didn't try and trick the audience into liking him. It was made explicit. 'This is a bad fucking person. He is not a good person. Do not cheer for him.' But you still did, because even though it was made clear, the pace was toned down and then built back up, allowing the audience to realize what a monster he was. Same with Breaking Bad. You root for this fucking piece of shit, but then when he kills 7 prisoners at once, the power he wields ruthlessly and without empathy, you suddenly become horrified that this person was terrible all along. There are major plot points in both shows that EXPLICITLY show that these are not good people. D&D did it so fucking incompetently, it is beyond measure.

Dany's arc was NOT written like this. You can't have the audience root for a character whose arc is basically that with little 'implications' and then go all at once, 'Oh, sometimes the good guys are really bad'. Yeah, but you have major hints and you build to this to earn it. It was not built, so her arc was essentially liberator. You can imply all you want, but you can't go from indirect implications to full on Hitler. She goes from breaker of chains to Female Hitler within the span of one episode. That's utterly impossible character-wise. As she has been written for 7 years, one episode cannot be justified. Her arc was still breaker of chains, just because the writers wanted her to go full Hitler doesn't mean her arc changed. It means they forced her into a position they wanted with no justification to do so. You needed at least another 3 full seasons and far more explicit examples if you wanted to justify that turn. As it stands, going on what is in the show, not the after-effects of the writer's implications that they never finished or even fleshed out to any degree, her going Hitler and genocide makes no logical or character sense.

What about Jon? Arya? Sansa? Jon lost his father, his brothers, his friends, his loyal commander, the love of his life, LOST HIS OWN LIFE, was betrayed by his closest allies in defense of humanity itself. Jon went through far more shit. So I absolutely don't buy it. So did other characters. Jaime Lannister too. Its no justification. To say so implies that she was some weak girl who lost some shit and then got pissy about it. That's the implication. Not that she went crazy. That she was emotionally weak. This isn't shown at all, the writers only justify it by 'Well, she's a Targaryean so its in her.' So is Jon you dense faggots and he didn't feel the need to burn people alive. So is Ameon fucking Targeryan. So is Rhegar Targeryan. Fuck off with this shit, go kill yourselves. God, I hate these two faggots and I hope any GoT prequels and sequels fucking bomb.
 
The problem is, as written, that really was her arc. If you want a show that makes you root for horrible fucking people and gradually shows you, 'Hey, these are horrible fucking people, you shouldn't root for them'. Breaking Bad and The Shield did it excellently. They had Vic Mackey shoot a cop in the face in the first episdoe. It didn't try and trick the audience into liking him. It was made explicit. 'This is a bad fucking person. He is not a good person. Do not cheer for him.' But you still did, because even though it was made clear, the pace was toned down and then built back up, allowing the audience to realize what a monster he was. Same with Breaking Bad. You root for this fucking piece of shit, but then when he kills 7 prisoners at once, the power he wields ruthlessly and without empathy, you suddenly become horrified that this person was terrible all along. There are major plot points in both shows that EXPLICITLY show that these are not good people. D&D did it so fucking incompetently, it is beyond measure.

Dany's arc was NOT written like this. You can't have the audience root for a character whose arc is basically that with little 'implications' and then go all at once, 'Oh, sometimes the good guys are really bad'. Yeah, but you have major hints and you build to this to earn it. It was not built, so her arc was essentially liberator. You can imply all you want, but you can't go from indirect implications to full on Hitler. She goes from breaker of chains to Female Hitler within the span of one episode. That's utterly impossible character-wise. As she has been written for 7 years, one episode cannot be justified. Her arc was still breaker of chains, just because the writers wanted her to go full Hitler doesn't mean her arc changed. It means they forced her into a position they wanted with no justification to do so. You needed at least another 3 full seasons and far more explicit examples if you wanted to justify that turn. As it stands, going on what is in the show, not the after-effects of the writer's implications that they never finished or even fleshed out to any degree, her going Hitler and genocide makes no logical or character sense.

What about Jon? Arya? Sansa? Jon lost his father, his brothers, his friends, his loyal commander, the love of his life, LOST HIS OWN LIFE, was betrayed by his closest allies in defense of humanity itself. Jon went through far more shit. So I absolutely don't buy it. So did other characters. Jaime Lannister too. Its no justification. To say so implies that she was some weak girl who lost some shit and then got pissy about it. That's the implication. Not that she went crazy. That she was emotionally weak. This isn't shown at all, the writers only justify it by 'Well, she's a Targaryean so its in her.' So is Jon you dense faggots and he didn't feel the need to burn people alive. So is Ameon fucking Targeryan. So is Rhegar Targeryan. Fuck off with this shit, go kill yourselves. God, I hate these two faggots and I hope any GoT prequels and sequels fucking bomb.

I agree with the breakneck speed at which it happened. Remember season one where it took half a season to travel from winterfell to king's landing? And season 7 where that journey was made about 4 times in 2 episodes? Everything had accelerated to the point of ludicrous speed. There really is no defense for that.

It would have been better in so many ways to have a half-hitler Dany. Because if it's less clearcut that it needs to happen, it is by definition a more interesting moral choice for Jon. And that includes the evil empire imagery and music near the end. The work of hacks to suddenly paint it as a good vs. evil struggle, rather than a more complex moral one that the thing began with. I think they could even have done it in a single full season rather than a half one. It isn't JUST the speed that was wrong with it, it is a combination of three things: Speed, lack of justification from her eyes, lack of moral greyness. It all became too black and white, too certain.

Jaime went through a lot and it absolutely transformed his character... until it reverted back. If it was written better his story of a addict unable to quit the women he loved, despite it going against the other things he loved had some stronger potentail.

Jon never really changed, which is a shame, because he should have changed at least after being resurrected.

Arya should have changed tremendously. I lay this at both the showrunners and arya's feet. It would have made so much more sense if she really had changed tremendously in the house of the undying. She went there right after the red wedding. She had more reason than almost anyone else to come back as something completely different than she left as, besides anime ninja.

Now that I think about it, the entire series has a character change deficiency. It depends so much more on unconvential plot twists than character development.
 
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The even dumber thing is that the writers could have made Daenerys turn to the dark side just a bit more plausible if they simply had Jon kill the Night King. That way in the next episode everyone (including even some of the Unsullied and Dothraki) could be shown praising Jon to the high heavens while Daenerys is sort of sitting there besides herself a bit annoyed and jealous possibly thinking : It was my dragons and my men that made this win possible. What do we get instead? Subversion!
 
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Well, she's a Targaryean so its in her.' So is Jon you dense faggots and he didn't feel the need to burn people alive. So is Ameon fucking Targeryan. So is Rhegar Targeryan. Fuck off with this shit, go kill yourselves. God, I hate these two faggots and I hope any GoT prequels and sequels fucking bomb.
I'm really sick of this and "The dragon can't kill other Targaryens" I hear from my friends. No, Martin's written other dragons killing other dragons and their Targaryen riders. Jon Snow is Aegon Targaryen so he could go mad at any time as well if you accept everything in S8, making everyone saying this about Daenarys and running to Jon look like absolute imbeciles.

I always felt Daenarys was a little bit too much Disney Princess with pet dragons (I suspect that's why she appealed to women who never read the books). I would have really enjoyed a Fascist Dany (because that's the best Dany) as villains are far more interesting and complex if well written but Season 7 and 8 were rushed and badly done, all the characters were dumbed down for the Burlington Bar type crowd. As for HBO...
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