Trolling Ethics Debate Thread

[qld]

But Chris' best moments have always been reactive ones like his first video where he's trying to dispel rumors about him or when he's raging about trolls. Without someone prodding him he wouldn't be compelled to share his thoughts/emotions half the time. Chris is (to dehumanize him a little bit) an interactive medium who can go off and do his own crazy things a lot of the time but also needs some direction if he's to hit maximum hilarity.

I haven't seen any recent "maximum hilarity."

Chris won't seek out professional help though, believe me, I've tried to put him in that direction.

As a matter of fact, "Renee" suggested that he give this place a call http://mha.avenue.org/ and he told her to basically drop dead. I haven't dropped that text yet because I don't want to start another shit storm of controversy.

Chris can't be forced into a mental health intervention (although this could all change after his hearing) he has though, on occasion, listened to reasonable/helpful advice from online gal-pals. I never said that this was ideal, but it's better than only having bat shit crazy Barb to talk to.

Then so be it. He pepper sprayed, the court is handling it now, and hopefully they'll focus on rehabilitation rather than punishment. Natural course of events without outside forces pulling his strings.

 

[General Juicer]

Oh yes, very true. But what I said about this incident before was that when that person started filming, it appeared the disturbance was over and the offender was leaving. Nothing more to be expected. But because the cameraman recognized Chris, they knew there would be a market for footage of him, even if merely strolling down the street (like a still of him at the Target checkout). Had it been some other guy, they probably wouldn't have recorded him. And the prosecutor would've had to rely upon store cameras possibly lacking audio. Chris, because he's Chris, doesn't get to take those chances.

Who gives a care about how fair it is? Most people can get away with not returning library books and thus don't have to worry about an outstanding warrant or random police visits over what's technically and morally theft. Yet there are a few people who will have to worry about this, most often because of prior history or they look/act like people the library or authorities don't care for. They'd be totally right about being singled out and hovered over in such a way, but it doesn't change the fact that they did something wrong and it was in the library's rights to make an example out of them.

So rather than investing in mental health intervention for the mentally ill, we need to have the go on line and get trolled and harassed by groups of people pretending to be bully Guidos and fake heart-sweets? Brilliant.

What the hell does that even mean, yawning sneasel? What exactly would 'investing in mental health intervention' entail and more importantly how would this help Chris?

 

[Thetan]

No one can force Chris to go to a psychologist. Thetan is doing the only thing that she can realistically do, in my opinion. Sure, it may be morally questionable to impersonate people that Chris knew in reality, but if Thetan can keep Chris from doing dumb shit like pepper spraying random people, it's certainly better than nothing.

This is the thing though. How do you know the person you're talking to on Facebook or Twitter is who they say they are - you don't. Some people don't use their real identities online (some for nefarious reasons and some for perfectly legitimate reasons).

Law enforcement isn't going to hold someone responsible for suggesting that someone see a particular movie or try a new activity. These type of casual conversations happen online all of the time. How is anyone supposed to know what might "trigger" another person.

It would be different if one of my personas (there is only one BTW - "Renee") suggested that Chris start carrying pepper spray or convinced him that he had some sort of inalienable right to trespass on private property where he'd been [legitimately] banned.

There's always a risk when Chris goes out in public, even more-so now. This is why I've dropped the whole idea of getting Chris to socialize more. Now there are definite risks.

 

[qld]

QUOTE="General Juicer, post: 478460, member: 2852"]Who gives a care about how fair it is?.[/QUOTE]

Sorry, I only mentioned fairness because I thought this was an ethics debate.

 

[Poor Choices]

I haven't seen any recent "maximum hilarity."

Even if you haven't, all Chris content is derived from the original trolling era. It's not so much a debate about trolling/no trolling but how much trolling is necessary to get content. That's the cold hard truth if you enjoy following Chris IMO.

 

[Thetan]

Consider the advantage of doing nothing - zero risk of unexpected negative consequences.
How sure are you that you can predict the likelihood and severity of something bad happening as a result of intervening in Chris's life? What are the odds your intervention will succeed?
I personally don't see how any online follower of Chris's can be sure enough that intervening in Chris's life is worth the risk.

I hate to keep bringing it up (because I'm really not trying to be argumentative ) but the consequences of saying nothing about Chris's obviously infected taint piercing would have had definite negative consequences: Chris could have developed an infection or blood poisoning which could have proven to be fatal.

 

[Relax Guy]

Oh no, I'm very, very confident Chris would have died from the taint piercing had he not taken it out. I don't believe he would've taken it out on his own in time either. Chris would've died if it wasn't for troll intervention.

Not that this is a justification for anything, of course. Just saying, let's not joke around: Chris would've died.

What is your evidence that he would have died and what type of infection did he have?

 

[General Juicer]

Sorry, I only mentioned fairness because I thought this was an ethics debate.

Chris isn't being singled out and punished for something that everyone is morally or legally allowed to do; he's being singled out and punished for something that no one should be doing in the first place. The fact that most people can get away with minor acts of vandalism and lightweight assault because society only has so much wherewithal to investigate them doesn't mean that the few people who do get caught by the net for arbitrary (but legal) reasons should be given a pass.

What is a shame and indictment of our society is that someone has to be a local and Internet celebrity in order to have the law fairly applied to them. Letting Chris use the escape hatch most people get to use isn't going to make anything better.

 

[GS 281]

Chris won't seek out professional help though, believe me, I've tried to put him in that direction.

Not to sound harsh because you've been a great sport with all the flak from people here with regard to the Renee deal, but why should Chris give a fuck about Renee telling him to get professional help? If I had an online friend saying "go get mental help" I would be personally insulted and move on from them. He had an idea of what he wanted from Renee, Renee hasn't delivered, why should he deliver for her? You and Chris have essentially wasted one another's time through the whole mess it seems. I see the suggestion that Barb keeps Chris from doing more, ever think that he uses Barb as an excuse not to do things Renee tells him to do because he thinks they are dumb? Just being trans or whatever he says or feels, I dunno, I don't care, doesn't mean he wants to be a part of the community.

As a matter of fact, "Renee" suggested that he give this place a call http://mha.avenue.org/ and he told her to basically drop dead. I haven't dropped that text yet because I don't want to start another shit storm of controversy.

If people here suggested that you get in contact with the MHA because of the attention you have given Chris, what would you say? He doesn't have the capabilities you were born with, that doesn't mean he has to follow you as Mommy's orders...

Chris can't be forced into a mental health intervention (although this could all change after his hearing) he has though, on occasion, listened to reasonable/helpful advice from online gal-pals. I never said that this was ideal, but it's better than only having bat shit crazy Barb to talk to.

Then perhaps you shouldn't be a "gal-pal", if you're concerned, be a friend. The "you should do this", "go and do that" bullshit isn't what friends do. I mean how many 5 hour long conversations have you had with the guy? None. So to say that just because you're not his abusive mother and therefore you are better. No, no you're not.

 

[Le Bateleur]

I hate to keep bringing it up (because I'm really not trying to be argumentative ) but the consequences of saying nothing about Chris's obviously infected taint piercing would have had definite negative consequences: Chris could have developed an infection or blood poisoning which could have proven to be fatal.

I don't think I've ever disagreed that this was the right thing to do in that situation. I genuinely am glad that you encouraged him to remove it.

My contention has always been that creating a network of trollsonas was potentially dangerous, unethical, and shouldn't have been done.

 

[Thetan]

What is your evidence that he would have died and what type of infection did he have?

Well, the picture made it pretty obvious that the thing was infected. Genital piercings, especially the type Chris had, are notorious for being prone to infection (even with people who practice good personal hygiene). Deaths from toxic shock have been linked to genital piercings (Google it).

Chris did end up going to a doctor, who agreed that the piercing was infected and prescribed antibiotics and an ointment. Even if we had been wrong, why take the risk, especially given the statistical evidence?

 

[Marvin]

What is your evidence that he would have died and what type of infection did he have?

I don't know that he had an infection. However, this was an intimate piercing. Chris wasn't going to tell Barb about it. This is a piercing that takes awhile to heal and is tricky for normal people to keep clean. Chris isn't a normal person. Chris was cleaning it with alcohol, which makes it take longer to heal. Chris also shits himself. Chris is also very stubborn and when the first piercing started to migrate, he repierced himself with a safety pin. When he was persuaded to take it out, he got it pierced again.

Chris isn't aware of the danger of this sort of situation. Chris isn't aware of the symptoms of sepsis. He'd wait awhile before Barb noticed something was wrong with him. By the time she takes him to the hospital, it'd probably be too late.

 

[Thetan]

Not to sound harsh because you've been a great sport with all the flak from people here with regard to the Renee deal, but why should Chris give a fuck about Renee telling him to get professional help? If I had an online friend saying "go get mental help" I would be personally insulted and move on from them. He had an idea of what he wanted from Renee, Renee hasn't delivered, why should he deliver for her? You and Chris have essentially wasted one another's time through the whole mess it seems. I see the suggestion that Barb keeps Chris from doing more, ever think that he uses Barb as an excuse not to do things Renee tells him to do because he thinks they are dumb? Just being trans or whatever he says or feels, I dunno, I don't care, doesn't mean he wants to be a part of the community.



If people here suggested that you get in contact with the MHA because of the attention you have given Chris, what would you say? He doesn't have the capabilities you were born with, that doesn't mean he has to follow you as Mommy's orders...



Then perhaps you shouldn't be a "gal-pal", if you're concerned, be a friend. The "you should do this", "go and do that" bullshit isn't what friends do. I mean how many 5 hour long conversations have you had with the guy? None. So to say that just because you're not his abusive mother and therefore you are better. No, no you're not.

You've seen the exchanges between Chris and I: I don't order him around, I make suggestions and give advice as any other friend would. I don't expect Chris to take my advice, but I offer it anyway knowing that there's a slim chance he might actually listen.

"Renee" is pretty much genuine in that she's trying to help Chris. There's no way I'm going to use my real identity when dealing with Chris, given his propensity for d0xx1ng people: sorry, I just don't need that. The first time I said something that "triggered" him, he'd drop my d0x: again, no thanks.

And no, sorry, interaction with me, or just about anyone else for that matter, is better than interaction with bat shit crazy Barb: in this case, I feel perfectly justified in saying that I'm a better influence on Chris than she is.

Someone actually did suggest that I seek mental health because of my interaction with Chris, I just laughed it off because it was obvious that they were trolling. If I thought they were being serious, I'd ask them to explain why they thought I'd benefit from this type of intervention. (I'm going to stop there because I don't want to get into an "I'm better than Chris because'..." thing.)

 

[Relax Guy]

I don't know that he had an infection. However, this was an intimate piercing. Chris wasn't going to tell Barb about it. This is a piercing that takes awhile to heal and is tricky for normal people to keep clean. Chris isn't a normal person. Chris was cleaning it with alcohol, which makes it take longer to heal. Chris also shits himself. Chris is also very stubborn and when the first piercing started to migrate, he repierced himself with a safety pin. When he was persuaded to take it out, he got it pierced again.

Chris isn't aware of the danger of this sort of situation. Chris isn't aware of the symptoms of sepsis. He'd wait awhile before Barb noticed something was wrong with him. By the time she takes him to the hospital, it'd probably be too late.

I thought we did know that it was infected. I also thought he also washed it in salt water twice a day (which is what the standard medical advice is).
If we don't know the species of infection then we cannot assess its lethality, and if there was a high chance of dying from infection or blood poisoning following a body piercing then nobody would do it.

Deaths from toxic shock have been linked to genital piercings (Google it).

Chris did end up going to a doctor, who agreed that the piercing was infected and prescribed antibiotics and an ointment. Even if we had been wrong, why take the risk, especially given the statistical evidence?

Well, you haven't specified the statistical evidence. What's the statistical likelihood of death given an infection in a body piercing?

 

[timtommy]

Whenever someone trolls Chris in any way, "helpful" or not, we can never know what would have happened if they didn't. Whenever someone decides not to interfere with him, we can never know what would have happened if they did.

It seems like this debate has devolved into both sides speculating about what would have happened.

I am sure there are a lot of cases where a decision by a troll or potential troll made him better off, and a lot of cases where they made him worse off. We will never know which is which.

 

[Thetan]

I don't think I've ever disagreed that this was the right thing to do in that situation. I genuinely am glad that you encouraged him to remove it.

My contention has always been that creating a network of trollsonas was potentially dangerous, unethical, and shouldn't have been done.

Oh, if you're talking about the whole gal-pal thing, then I agree with you. I not only didn't expect Chris to buy into any of it, but I didn't expect him to react the way he did.

I admit that the gal-pal thing was a huge mistake, and I'm sorry I ever went down that path.

 

[qld]

Chris isn't being singled out and punished for something that everyone is morally or legally allowed to do; he's being singled out and punished for something that no one should be doing in the first place. The fact that most people can get away with minor acts of vandalism and lightweight assault because society only has so much wherewithal to investigate them doesn't mean that the few people who do get caught by the net for arbitrary (but legal) reasons should be given a pass.

What is a shame and indictment of our society is that someone has to be a local and Internet celebrity in order to have the law fairly applied to them. Letting Chris use the escape hatch most people get to use isn't going to make anything better.

He wouldn't have had an escape hatch. Did you see how many witnesses were there? The store also probably had surveillance of unknown quality. At least Chris would've stood a chance to shape out a decent plea bargain that may have emphasized rehabilitation rather than jail time. Now if he gets a lawyer and he tries to make a deal with the prosecutor, the prosecutor can laugh and tell him he's got 6 witnesses, two tapes and audio, so he's going for a conviction and max time (not that he will). I'm not hoping Chris goes to prison for a year or two, are you? I'm not hoping he gets off scot-free, either. I hope he gets medicated and gets some counseling, and if he doesn't, then he can go to jail/prison.

 

[Marvin]

I thought we did know that it was infected. I also thought he also washed it in salt water twice a day (which is what the standard medical advice is).
If we don't know the species of infection then we cannot assess its lethality, and if there was a high chance of dying from infection or blood poisoning following a body piercing then nobody would do it.

Salt water was the consensus suggestion from here on what the proper way to clean the wound. Chris himself was using rubbing alcohol. (And didn't he use hand sanitizer at some point? Or did I imagine that? )

The problem was less with the piercing and more about how Chris handled it. In particular, his stubbornness and refusal to take it seriously. Similarly, Chris doesn't take his jail situation seriously right now and has no clue he could go to jail. Even if people tell him he could go to jail, he doesn't believe them that it's a possibility.

He wouldn't have had an escape hatch. Did you see how many witnesses were there? The store also probably had surveillance of unknown quality. At least Chris would've stood a chance to shape out a decent plea bargain that may have emphasized rehabilitation rather than jail time. Now if he gets a lawyer and he tries to make a deal with the prosecutor, the prosecutor can laugh and tell him he's got 6 witnesses, two tapes and audio, so he's going for a conviction and max time (not that he will). I'm not hoping Chris goes to prison for a year or two, are you? I'm not hoping he gets off scot-free, either. I hope he gets medicated and gets some counseling, and if he doesn't, then he can go to jail/prison.

Eh, I think that's a bit optimistic. He couldn't afford a good lawyer either way, and I think that's what's going to sink him. The recording's funny for us, but I don't see it as the linchpin to Chris' case.

 

[Thetan]

What's the statistical likelihood of death given an infection in a body piercing?

Just Google it, the information is there.

As far as the risk goes, why do you think the piercing places make you sign a release? People have died from sepsis and toxic shock due to infected piercings. Can you really say that, after seeing that picture, you didn't see any sign of infection?

 

[qld]

Just Google it, the information is there.

As far as the risk goes, why do you think the piercing places make you sign a release? People have died from sepsis and toxic shock due to infected piercings. Can you really say that, after seeing that picture, you didn't see any sign of infection?

I knew a piercing place that gave out "Ocean Water" to clean piercings, and when my friend lost his, we went into another store to buy a can of it. That piercing shop told him to not use salt water on a piercing. I guess there is no consensus.

I never had an infected body piercing, but I did get bit by a cat, went to the ER and the quack only gave me pain pills after putting peroxide on it. I went back to the hospital two days later for six days of IV antibiotics. After two days, you will notice something like staph or strep (what you commonly get with a skin piercing) if you've got it.