US Cloudflare: "Terminating Service for 8Chan"


Terminating Service for 8Chan

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August 05, 2019 1:44AM


The mass shootings in El Paso, Texas and Dayton, Ohio are horrific tragedies. In the case of the El Paso shooting, the suspected terrorist gunman appears to have been inspired by the forum website known as 8chan. Based on evidence we've seen, it appears that he posted a screed to the site immediately before beginning his terrifying attack on the El Paso Walmart killing 20 people.

Unfortunately, this is not an isolated incident. Nearly the same thing happened on 8chan before the terror attack in Christchurch, New Zealand. The El Paso shooter specifically referenced the Christchurch incident and appears to have been inspired by the largely unmoderated discussions on 8chan which glorified the previous massacre. In a separate tragedy, the suspected killer in the Poway, California synagogue shooting also posted a hate-filled “open letter” on 8chan. 8chan has repeatedly proven itself to be a cesspool of hate.

8chan is among the more than 19 million Internet properties that use Cloudflare's service. We just sent notice that we are terminating 8chan as a customer effective at midnight tonight Pacific Time. The rationale is simple: they have proven themselves to be lawless and that lawlessness has caused multiple tragic deaths. Even if 8chan may not have violated the letter of the law in refusing to moderate their hate-filled community, they have created an environment that revels in violating its spirit.

We do not take this decision lightly. Cloudflare is a network provider. In pursuit of our goal of helping build a better internet, we’ve considered it important to provide our security services broadly to make sure as many users as possible are secure, and thereby making cyberattacks less attractive — regardless of the content of those websites. Many of our customers run platforms of their own on top of our network. If our policies are more conservative than theirs it effectively undercuts their ability to run their services and set their own policies. We reluctantly tolerate content that we find reprehensible, but we draw the line at platforms that have demonstrated they directly inspire tragic events and are lawless by design. 8chan has crossed that line. It will therefore no longer be allowed to use our services.

What Will Happen Next

Unfortunately, we have seen this situation before and so we have a good sense of what will play out. Almost exactly two years ago we made the determination to kick another disgusting site off Cloudflare's network: the Daily Stormer. That caused a brief interruption in the site's operations but they quickly came back online using a Cloudflare competitor. That competitor at the time promoted as a feature the fact that they didn't respond to legal process. Today, the Daily Stormer is still available and still disgusting. They have bragged that they have more readers than ever. They are no longer Cloudflare's problem, but they remain the Internet's problem.

I have little doubt we'll see the same happen with 8chan. While removing 8chan from our network takes heat off of us, it does nothing to address why hateful sites fester online. It does nothing to address why mass shootings occur. It does nothing to address why portions of the population feel so disenchanted they turn to hate. In taking this action we've solved our own problem, but we haven't solved the Internet's.

In the two years since the Daily Stormer what we have done to try and solve the Internet’s deeper problem is engage with law enforcement and civil society organizations to try and find solutions. Among other things, that resulted in us cooperating around monitoring potential hate sites on our network and notifying law enforcement when there was content that contained an indication of potential violence. We will continue to work within the legal process to share information when we can to hopefully prevent horrific acts of violence. We believe this is our responsibility and, given Cloudflare's scale and reach, we are hopeful we will continue to make progress toward solving the deeper problem.

Rule of Law

We continue to feel incredibly uncomfortable about playing the role of content arbiter and do not plan to exercise it often. Some have wrongly speculated this is due to some conception of the United States' First Amendment. That is incorrect. First, we are a private company and not bound by the First Amendment. Second, the vast majority of our customers, and more than 50% of our revenue, comes from outside the United States where the First Amendment and similarly libertarian freedom of speech protections do not apply. The only relevance of the First Amendment in this case and others is that it allows us to choose who we do and do not do business with; it does not obligate us to do business with everyone.

Instead our concern has centered around another much more universal idea: the Rule of Law. The Rule of Law requires policies be transparent and consistent. While it has been articulated as a framework for how governments ensure their legitimacy, we have used it as a touchstone when we think about our own policies.

We have been successful because we have a very effective technological solution that provides security, performance, and reliability in an affordable and easy-to-use way. As a result of that, a huge portion of the Internet now sits behind our network. 10% of the top million, 17% of the top 100,000, and 19% of the top 10,000 Internet properties use us today. 10% of the Fortune 1,000 are paying Cloudflare customers.

Cloudflare is not a government. While we've been successful as a company, that does not give us the political legitimacy to make determinations on what content is good and bad. Nor should it. Questions around content are real societal issues that need politically legitimate solutions. We will continue to engage with lawmakers around the world as they set the boundaries of what is acceptable in their countries through due process of law. And we will comply with those boundaries when and where they are set.

Europe, for example, has taken a lead in this area. As we've seen governments there attempt to address hate and terror content online, there is recognition that different obligations should be placed on companies that organize and promote content — like Facebook and YouTube — rather than those that are mere conduits for that content. Conduits, like Cloudflare, are not visible to users and therefore cannot be transparent and consistent about their policies.
The unresolved question is how should the law deal with platforms that ignore or actively thwart the Rule of Law? That's closer to the situation we have seen with the Daily Stormer and 8chan. They are lawless platforms. In cases like these, where platforms have been designed to be lawless and unmoderated, and where the platforms have demonstrated their ability to cause real harm, the law may need additional remedies. We and other technology companies need to work with policy makers in order to help them understand the problem and define these remedies. And, in some cases, it may mean moving enforcement mechanisms further down the technical stack.

Our Obligation

Cloudflare's mission is to help build a better Internet. At some level firing 8chan as a customer is easy. They are uniquely lawless and that lawlessness has contributed to multiple horrific tragedies. Enough is enough.

What's hard is defining the policy that we can enforce transparently and consistently going forward. We, and other technology companies like us that enable the great parts of the Internet, have an obligation to help propose solutions to deal with the parts we're not proud of. That's our obligation and we're committed to it.

Unfortunately the action we take today won’t fix hate online. It will almost certainly not even remove 8chan from the Internet. But it is the right thing to do. Hate online is a real issue. Here are some organizations that have active work to help address it:
Our whole Cloudflare team’s thoughts are with the families grieving in El Paso, Texas and Dayton, Ohio this evening.
 
Semi off topic but correct me if wrong but I thought Nulls had his own ISP which ran Kiwi Farms, so this kind of thing wouldn't happen to the farms?
Last time I checked, Null does own physical servers. However, all traffic to this website is routed through Cloudflare (mostly to protect the site from DDOS attacks from niggers, conserve bandwidth, etc). Another thing to note is that Cloudflare offers free SSL certificates (which explains the sudden rise in websites using Cloudfare, to get that sexy, sexy green padlock ).
 
Cloudflare's CEO before he became a cuck said:
A website is speech. It is not a bomb. There is no imminent danger it creates and no provider has an affirmative obligation to monitor and make determinations about the theoretically harmful nature of speech a site may contain... There are lots of things on the web I find personally distasteful. I have political beliefs, but I don't believe those beliefs should color what is and is not allowed to flow over the network. As we have blogged about before, we often find ourselves on opposite sides of political conflicts. Fundamentally, we are consistent in the fact that our political beliefs will not color who we allow to be fast and safe on the web.”

Never underestimate a libertarian's willingness to sell out all your rights
 
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8chan are tards. But this is chilling after they kicked off Daily STormer because the CEOs "Fuck it, the bull didn't use enough lube last night when he was finishing inside my anus, and Trump is elected, so I'm going to make an arbitrary decision on what is bad content because I can." little bitch fit.

I think they're well right to boot 8chan off, but this dude's statement is concerning in a way that's what is wrong with all the tech giants.

The rationale is simple: they have proven themselves to be lawless and that lawlessness has caused multiple tragic deaths. Even if 8chan may not have violated the letter of the law in refusing to moderate their hate-filled community, they have created an environment that revels in violating its spirit.

The internet is lawless. Its called freedom. Plenty of guillotine posting faggots get to keep continuing their hate.

We reluctantly tolerate content that we find reprehensible, but we draw the line at platforms that have demonstrated they directly inspire tragic events and are lawless by design. 8chan has crossed that line. It will therefore no longer be allowed to use our services.

Ok that's fine, that's a good policy. If your site is part of origin, coordination, and support network of a mass killer, and shows no interest in not being the same for future killers, CloudFlare wants no part of it. That's reasonable and sane imo.

Now tell me what section of this newly created policy the autistic trailer dwellers of the Daily Stormer violated.

And (fully aware of most likely why, see below ) Cloudflare protects Islamist fund raising and coordination sites that praise AND FUND violence against 'infidels'. Now, while I agree with Cloudflare that the deaths of Arabs is not tragic, it definitely gives the appearance of a double standard.

What's hard is defining the policy that we can enforce transparently and consistently going forward. We, and other technology companies like us that enable the great parts of the Internet, have an obligation to help propose solutions to deal with the parts we're not proud of. That's our obligation and we're committed to it.

No, its not hard to define transparently & consistently enforced policy unless you have a narrative you want to push at the expense of the other side.

You have an obligation to reverse proxy traffic. That's it you Orwellian fuck. Stop trying to use your status to impose your values on other and trying make the rest of the world as fucked up as Silicon Valley.

Unfortunately the action we take today won’t fix hate online. It will almost certainly not even remove 8chan from the Internet. But it is the right thing to do. Hate online is a real issue.

Please define online hate, because I've told refusing to call an obvious man in a dress a woman is a crime and online hate (instead of the simply being an asshole), and that when I refuse to support policy that requires me to pay for his horsepiss injections, that's also online hate.

But posting videos of IEDs killing foreigners and 'infidels', and talk about how I can't wait to go to turkey to sneak into Syria or Afghanistan for jihad, that's apparently not hate speech.

Or if I try to use the fact the city council doesn't want to allow the police to enforce laws, so I can put on a black mask and try to use a bikelock on people with different political ideas than mine, that's only hate speech if I'm not a communist.

Literally worse than ISIS lol

They are almost assuredly allowing Islamic chat to continue as a Co-In honeypot, tbf.
 
Is there really no other way to mitigate DDoS attacks other than Cloudflare? ED used to have a mutating IP address back in the day that prevented people from seeing the real one. I've never seen it on any website since went down the first time either.
Hardware filters are another option, but they only work as long as the filter is not clogged. In the almost-IOT era where you can easily find thousands to millions of unprotected devices for your bot net, this solution is less feasible without a really big net. As more companies release and abandon cheap internet connected devices, it will get worse.

Other cloud services do it, only other services are not as open to questionable content as cloudfare was. Azure is purely for legitimate content. One whiff of controversy and Microsoft drops you. Amazon and other cloud providers are the same.
 
Hardware filters are another option, but they only work as long as the filter is not clogged. In the almost-IOT era where you can easily find thousands to millions of unprotected devices for your bot net, this solution is less feasible without a really big net.

Other cloud services do it, only other services are not as open to questionable content as cloudfare was. Azure is purely for legitimate content. One whiff of controversy and Microsoft drops you. Amazon and other cloud providers are the same.
Could Null set up his own neutral hardware filter system and charge money to websites that want to use it?
 
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An CDN and ISP are not the same thing.

He also has an ASN. And a hosting company. Neither of which are, strictly speaking, an ISP.

Also ClownFlare appears to have two IP numbers.

They're not responding though.

traceroute to 206.223.147.222 (206.223.147.222), 64 hops max, 52 byte packets
[. . .]
7 if-ae-5-2.tcore2.sv1-santa-clara.as6453.net (209.58.86.142) 283.573 ms 296.875 ms 329.133 ms
8 if-ae-38-2.tcore1.sqn-san-jose.as6453.net (63.243.205.74) 315.461 ms
if-ae-18-4.tcore1.sqn-san-jose.as6453.net (63.243.205.12) 350.448 ms
if-ae-18-2.tcore1.sqn-san-jose.as6453.net (63.243.205.72) 376.212 ms
9 if-ae-1-2.tcore2.sqn-san-jose.as6453.net (63.243.205.2) 436.466 ms 327.075 ms 301.320 ms
10 64.86.21.62 (64.86.21.62) 302.608 ms 330.369 ms 317.043 ms
11 xe-2-0-2.cr0-sfo1.ip4.gtt.net (141.136.106.205) 424.145 ms 1066.303 ms 523.545 ms
12 cent-dmarc.gt-t.net (98.124.130.206) 944.092 ms 293.786 ms 343.970 ms
13 vl30-cr01.sf.200p.ip4.centaurico.com (208.74.64.3) 302.937 ms 505.118 ms 449.408 ms
14 * * *
15 * * *
 
This just went out on the ap, so I guess they'll be about 20 more of them today.
NEW YORK (AP) — An online message board accused of hosting extremist content was temporarily inaccessible Monday after its cybersecurity provider cut off support for a “cesspool of hate” following mass shootings in Texas and Ohio.
8chan returned an error message after midnight California time, when Cloudflare Inc. said its support would end. There was no immediate explanation, but lack of security support would leave the site open to online attacks that might block access.
Police are investigating commentary posted on 8chan that is believed to have been written by the suspect in a shooting Saturday that killed 20 people in El Paso, Texas.
8chan’s operators said on Twitter that there might be “some downtime” for 24 to 48 hours while they looked for a solution.
The suspect in El Paso “appears to have been inspired” by discussions on 8chan, said Cloudflare CEO Matthew Prince in a blog post on his company’s site. He said a suspect in an earlier shooting at a synagogue in Poway, California, also posted a “hate-filled ‘open letter’” on 8chan.
“8chan has repeatedly proven itself to be a cesspool of hate,” wrote Prince. “They have proven themselves to be lawless and that lawlessness has caused multiple tragic deaths.”
 
They should identify which particular communications on 8chan "inspired" the shooter. It would be tragic if among his influences were some of the FBI/CIA assets who have been visibly glowing in the dark on the site while posting extremist rhetoric.

ETA: and it's back up again from one of my networks but not from another. I'd guess the DNS records are propagating.

Not sure whether they have any DDoS mitigation currently or if they're just on the net naked. If the latter, it probably won't be up long.
 
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Could Null set up his own neutral hardware filter system and charge money to websites that want to use it?
It would depend on how capable the specific hardware and software is. The device functions as a filter. If too much bad stuff goes in, it gets clogged and stops working. The biggest ddos ever peaked at 1.35Tbps. That is a lot of data to absorb before you get into the actual filtering. Cloud based solutions are much better at dealing with large scale attacks.
 
I remember back when /pol/ got a bunch of lefty youtubers taken down, they were shitting on their sister board for not being prudent and archiving all their videos. It's sad that shithole board is going to be okay, but also funny to see the tables turn as the site's resident stormfags cry about the end of the world. :story:
Sums up what you described pretty well.
tW6Ywc2n0pZz_EnKS4Uis_BU__z2sSGdTu-l0KvCh_2PAVr7wkV2RZJLU5-AQYoSjdcaUQ67jqgO=s0
 
Are people really being naive about why the chans have been under attack? It's never been about hate speech, it's about control and shutting down discussion they don't control.

Edit: fucking typo
But foremost, it's about the absence of an identity. Not even an alias, just a randomly assigned number. That's the real problem, anybody could potentially leak something unsavory and they can't prevent it.
8chan was a shithole begging to be burned down since day one, but this still sets a worrying precedent on how much overreach these tech firms are capable of. The farms isn't that far away from the chopping block if we're not careful
Everyone who's set up one of these websites has been a lazy jagoff who barely knows how to program and only does the minimum it takes to make things work. This is a problem Null doesn't have because he can actually do things for himself and not rely on someone else's crumbling infrastructure, much unlike someone such as Lowtax.
 
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Again, if Jim Watkins wants to save 8chan without having to move to another host, he should just give /pol/ and /leftypol/ the axe, since those boards have the kind of userbase who will easily find another place to host their discussion.
There's a risk that shutting down /pol/ and /leftypol/ might push the users to fuck up the other boards.
I'd post the "And nothing of value was lost" meme, but I admit I enjoy lurking the /y2k/ board over there.
I go to /v/ (even if I can't stand Mark), /vg/ and /strek/ so if the site was gone then that would piss me off because to my knowledge there are no other places where I can talk freely and anonymously about vidya and trek.
 
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I remember back when /pol/ got a bunch of lefty youtubers taken down, they were shitting on their sister board for not being prudent and archiving all their videos. It's sad that shithole board is going to be okay, but also funny to see the tables turn as the site's resident stormfags cry about the end of the world. :story:

EDIT: Hotwheels has agreed to help the lefties migrate. The salt is gonna gush forth in droves.
View attachment 876517

BASED WHEELCHAIR MAN

Someone needs to rile up Antifa shooters to target Cloudflare, Google, YouTube, Facebook, etc. instead of their local Walmarts, churches and pro-America rallies.

Go to their next meeting and hand out these company's quarterly earnings reports or take them to see Jeff Bezos' new super-yacht.

Point this potential weapon in the proper direction and let the problems take care of themselves.

View attachment 876542

You say that as if there's a significant amount of antifa shooters.
That only barely exists a thing. A thing dwarfed by fashy shooters.

The same fucking morons who got 8chan wrecked are going to come here and do that here too.

BUILD THE WALL
KEEP KF GREAT
8chan isn't sending their best.
 
What happened to all that talk about breaking up Google, Facebook etc and declaring Twitter a "public space" where the First Amendment applies so they couldn't legally censor users anymore? I guess when people post mean things and someone's feelings are hurt the First Amendment isn't important anymore.
Me personally, I think that shit is more about web giants wielding potentially more power than the government than it was about anything relating to a noble motive.
 
There would have to be SOME sort of competition and sure, maybe the competition would be inferior, but I think if we want to create this sort of "free market" that everyone wants to be a part of, there has to be SOME sort of support for the little guys and having people move away from the big tech companies.
Yeah but the thing is, the big tech, the Sillicon Valley, the payment processors etc. don't want any alternatives.
 
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