Cultural Variations in Children's Mirror Self-Recognition - Nig'lets Don't Understand How Mirrors Work

[Distant Stare]

"Abstract - Western children first show signs of mirror self-recognition (MSR) from 18 to 24 months of age, the benchmark index of emerging self-concept. Such signs include self-oriented behaviors while looking at the mirror to touch or remove a mark surreptitiously placed on the child’s face. The authors attempted to replicate this finding across cultures using a simplified version of the classic “mark test.” In Experiment 1, Kenyan children (N = 82, 18 to 72 months old) display a pronounced absence of spontaneous self-oriented behaviors toward the mark. In Experiment 2, the authors tested children in Fiji, Saint Lucia, Grenada, and Peru (N = 133, 36 to 55 months old), as well as children from urban United States and rural Canada. As expected from existing reports, a majority of the Canadian and American children demonstrate spontaneous self-oriented behaviors toward the mark. However, markedly fewer children from the non-Western rural sites demonstrate such behaviors. These results suggest that there are profound cross-cultural differences in the meaning of the MSR test, questioning the validity of the mark test as a universal index of self-concept in children’s development.

For Africans - Of the 82 children tested, only two demonstrated any of the defined self-oriented behaviors when facing their “marked” image in the mirror (one-tailed binomial test, p < .001, with a .60 probability threshold). Of these two children, one removed the mark and one touched but did not remove the mark (both were 48 months of age; one male and one female). Coding of freezing behavior reveals that 80 of the 82 children (one-tailed binomial test, p < .001, with a .50 probability threshold) displayed such behavior, staring at their image in the mirror, without any attempt at either touching or removing the mark on their forehead. The two 48-month-olds that self-oriented did not freeze. These results are in sharp contrast with what is reported with Western children. For example, Lewis and Ramsay (2004), using a comparable procedure, report that over 80% of children by 21 months and 100% of children by 24 months of age pass the test by touching or removing the mark (see also Lewis & Brooks-Gunn, 1979). These findings cannot be explained in terms of a slight developmental lag as children were aged up to 72 months (6 years) and still showed no evidence of self-oriented behaviors"

For comparison Dolphins, Elephants, and Chimps pass this test.

 

[Maskull]

They're not using very large data sets to prove their thesis.

 

[Distant Stare]

They're not using very large data sets to prove their thesis.

Yes, but the results are very consistent across the hundred or so kids they use.

I am interested in this, "These findings cannot be explained in terms of a slight developmental lag as children were aged up to 72 months (6 years) and still showed no evidence of self-oriented behaviors".

Why is it that other radically different mammals are able to complete this test, but they still claim that cultural variations are to blame.

 

[Maskull]

Yes, but the results are very consistent across the hundred or so kids they use.

I am interested in this, "These findings cannot be explained in terms of a slight developmental lag as children were aged up to 72 months (6 years) and still showed no evidence of self-oriented behaviors".

Why is it that other radically different mammals are able to complete this test, but they still claim that cultural variations are to blame.

That's hundred or so children across a continent. That's not enough to say much of anything at all. Rather than cultural variations I would personally liken it more to poverty instead but it's not for me to say. They need larger sets of data and they probably should account for income and other environmental factors as well aside the cultural divide with the West.

 

[Distant Stare]

That's hundred or so children across a continent. That's not enough to say much of anything at all. Rather than cultural variations I would personally liken it more to poverty instead but it's not for me to say. They need larger sets of data and they probably should account for income and other environmental factors as well aside the cultural divide with the West.

I agree that more research is needed. It would be nice to control for many other factors. However, radically alien mammals pass this test. If you ever wanted to see if culture affected this test, you have your answer right there. Unless elephants, dolphins, and apes all have a Western bias, culture is likely a major influence.

 

[Maskull]

I agree that more research is needed. It would be nice to control for many other factors. However, radically alien mammals pass this test. If you ever wanted to see if culture affected this test, you have your answer right there. Unless elephants, dolphins, and apes all have a Western bias, culture is likely a major influence.

There's reason why ethology and sociology are distinct fields. What you are looking at in say, a dolphin, is largely ingrained set of unlearned instinctual behaviors already understood from out of the womb. Don't believe that to be the case in human children regardless what womb they fall from. It is that childhood development as well animal development, any you've listed, are not my forte. I recognize my knowledge as shoddy and look to strengthen it in time. Perhaps someone else will have something more enlightening to say than I.

 

[Lopt]

Depending on socioeconomic factors they're probably used to being dirty and having shit in their faces they see no need to remove it. Maybe wait for the rain to wash it off instead of trying and accidentally scratching yourself and getting an infection. Though that's just my first thought,could do with more info on the sample instead of country

 

[Exigent Circumcisions]

This seems pretty simple: most western children have seen multiple pictures of themselves (and taken selfies with parents) at a young age, a lot of them have probably video called with grandparents, etc.

It's worth noting that there's no mention of race here, just location. It might be hard to find white kids in Africa but it's not hard to find different races in western countries.

Edits: clarification

 

[Distant Stare]

This experiment is poorly designed in my opinion. They use irregular numbers of subjects, across seemingly random regions, and rush the test. With that in mind lets consider the following:

This seems pretty simple: most western children have seen multiple pictures of themselves at a young age, a lot of them have probably video called with grandparents, etc.

It's worth noting that there's no mention of race here, just location.

"We compared children from five non-Western rural communities—Kenya, Fiji, Grenada, Saint Lucia, and Peru"

"ll participants were from a district in the Western Province of Kenya on the border of Uganda. Currently, the population is approximately 1.3 million, with each village in the area comprised of less than 3,000 people. Agriculture is the main form of economic activity in the region, with 70% of households depending directly or indirectly on farming for income. "

I think that it is safe so say that children from rural Kenya are Kenyan, and thus of are African decent. In fact, it would be outrageous to select 100 typical Kenyans from anywhere rural in Kenya and expect them to be anything other than African. However, it is not explicitly states of what population that originated from. This I think is due to the bias of the researchers. They do not "see" any different distinct human populations, and so they do not report it.

Depending on socioeconomic factors they're probably used to being dirty and having shit in their faces they see no need to remove it. Maybe wait for the rain to wash it off instead of trying and accidentally scratching yourself and getting an infection. Though that's just my first thought,could do with more info on the sample instead of country

They also looked for freezing behavior. This occurs when you stare at an image for more than 2 seconds. The African kids were able to recognize they were seeing an image of something, but they did not remove the mark. Also children as young as 24 months old can do this, and animals as well. Chimps, dolphins, and elephants dont regularly use tablets, phones, screen, or handle pictures.

Elephants, chimps, and dolphins do not know about infections. Both Elephants and chimps both live in dirty environments, and are also darkly pigmented. If it really was just about regularly being dirty would not elephants and chimps also not react?

"In addition, we coded for signs of marked behavioral inhibition in terms of freezing behavior. Freezing was operationally defined as the absence of any body movement or vocalization, while staring at the specular image, for more than 2 seconds. Note that children could exhibit freezing behavior and subsequently touch or remove the mark, or alternatively, they could exhibit none of the above, treating the image as another playmate or acting out without any self-oriented behavior (Amsterdam, 1972). Freezing behavior was analyzed using a nonparametric, one-tailed binomial test with a threshold level set at .50, to test our null hypothesis that children across cultures will not demonstrate significantly more freezing than what would be expected by chance."

 

[Maskull]

Why do you keep comparing children with animals? One of the flaws in this test is not just in sample sizes but in comparative backgrounds. To discover why one group of children is behaving a certain way they should be testing large numbers of similar background to detect for causal factors.

 

[Distant Stare]

Why do you keep comparing children with animals? One of the flaws in this test is not just in sample sizes but in comparative backgrounds. To discover why one group of children is behaving a certain way they should be testing large numbers of similar background to detect for causal factors.

In biology animals and humans are compared all the time, especially in the case of model organisms. Chimps are one such model organism.

The reason I am comparing children to animals is because it allows us to come to a new understand of the situation: Consider the following:

1) The authors suggest that cultural differences across populations cause different outcomes on a test
2) This test can be conducted on many different animals
3) These animals are all able to pass the test
4) The animals do not have our culture, or any culture
5) Thus, ability to pass this test can not be significantly influenced by culture in this case

 

[Maskull]

In biology animals and humans are compared all the time, especially in the case of model organisms. Chimps are one such model organism.

The reason I am comparing children to animals is because it allows us to come to a new understand of the situation: Consider the following:

1) The authors suggest that cultural differences across populations cause different outcomes on a test
2) This test can be conducted on many different animals
3) These animals are all able to pass the test
4) The animals do not have our culture, or any culture
5) Thus, ability to pass this test can not be significantly influenced by culture in this case

Don't see it as being relevant to even compare as it is not a learned behavior in non-human animals.

 

[Distant Stare]

Why do you keep comparing children with animals? One of the flaws in this test is not just in sample sizes but in comparative backgrounds. To discover why one group of children is behaving a certain way they should be testing large numbers of similar background to detect for causal factors.

Don't see it as being relevant to even compare as it is not a learned behavior in non-human animals.

It is neither a learned behavior in humans or non-humans. It is the result of the natural cognitive abilities of those animals. It is instinct.

 

[Y2K Baby]

Elephants, chimps, and dolphins do not know about infections. Both Elephants and chimps both live in dirty environments, and are also darkly pigmented. If it really was just about regularly being dirty would not elephants and chimps also not react?

Yes, yes, black people are dumber than chimps and all that. Very baste and epic indeed!

 

[Distant Stare]

Yes, yes, black people are dumber than chimps and all that. Very baste and epic indeed!

not an argument

 

[KimCoppolaAficionado]

not an argument

Nigger nothing you've said is an argument either. "Not an argument" is, itself, not an argument. How about you try communicating like a human being instead of an autistic robot?

 

[Manwithn0n0men]

That's hundred or so children across a continent. That's not enough to say much of anything at all. Rather than cultural variations I would personally liken it more to poverty instead but it's not for me to say. They need larger sets of data and they probably should account for income and other environmental factors as well aside the cultural divide with the West.

You might want to take a research methodology class

for something this generalized thats plenty

 

[Oskar Dirlewanger]

Western babies are more into mirrors because they grow up to be faggots and trannies.

 

[Y2K Baby]

not an argument

Neither is a spot on a mirror.

 

[Distant Stare]

Neither is a spot on a mirror.

Stupid faggot

Mirror test - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org