Infected Euphoric atheists

Cactus Wings said:
Isn't that just a whole philosophy based on "Yeah I knew you were gonna do that.." as if a kid on a playground acting smart?
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At worst, that's just how he is presenting it.

You can probably fine more straight-forward logic somewhere else, but I could understand it fine.
 
I understand the argument. It's "humans are completely deterministic machines, like computers." The idea is that with a perfectly identical set of external and internal starting variables, a human will only make one choice in a given situation. I find this assertion dubious, because of something the guy in the video actually touched on, quantum randomness.

"If you think quantum randomness debunks this, watch this guy."

Well I watched that guy, and he didn't discredit quantum randomness being a factor at all.


What this guy doesn't touch on is that human beings are made of quantum particles. "Well that doesn't matter, because that's only on the minuscule quantum scale," you assert, but think about it. A slight quantum disturbance could slightly decelerate or accelerate the movement of a sodium ion through a synapse, causing a cascading butterfly effect that leads to a different decision being made by a subject even if you literally rewinded time.

Now, is that really what we think of when we think of having 'free will?' It's debatable. In my opinion, however, it fits CosmicSkeptic's definition of free will, which is "for starting condition X, outcome Y must necessarily follow."

/sperg
 
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An Account said:
I understand the argument. It's "humans are completely deterministic machines, like computers." The idea is that with a perfectly identical set of external and internal variables, a human will only make one choice in a given situation. I find this assertion dubious, because of something the guy in the video actually touched on, quantum randomness.

"If you think quantum randomness debunks this, watch this guy."

Well I watched that guy, and he didn't discredit quantum randomness being a factor at all.


What this guy doesn't touch on is that human beings are made of quantum particles. "Well that doesn't matter, because that's only on the minuscule quantum scale," you assert, but think about it. A slight quantum disturbance could slightly decelerate or accelerate the movement of a sodium ion through a synapse, causing a cascading butterfly effect that leads to a different decision being made by a subject even if you literally rewinded time.

Now, is that really what we think of when we think of having 'free will?' It's debatable. In my opinion, however, it fits CosmicSkeptic's definition of free will, which is "for starting condition X, outcome Y must necessarily follow."

/sperg
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Yeah, it is hard to tell how much quantum effects have on human thought.

But I don't think that would help, because that just makes the actions you take more randomly selected, and does not give you free will.
 
I wouldn't have thought many euphoric atheists would go for the "free will doesn't exist" argument if only because so many view their atheism as a form of liberation from the rules of a church, thus allowing them to make their own choices on what is moral. The determinism atheist types just remind me of Calvinists with a science-y hat on. It just seems like an exercise in philosophical masturbation, only way more depressing because you're essentially caging yourself and everyone else by saying that choices don't matter, everything you do is predictable, the outcome of your actions have already been determined.

If that's the case, then what's the fucking point of living? I really do not get it.
 
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Meowthkip said:
I wouldn't have thought many euphoric atheists would go for the "free will doesn't exist" argument if only because so many view their atheism as a form of liberation from the rules of a church, thus allowing them to make their own choices on what is moral. The determinism atheist types just remind me of Calvinists with a science-y hat on. It just seems like an exercise in philosophical masturbation, only way more depressing because you're essentially caging yourself and everyone else by saying that choices don't matter, everything you do is predictable, the outcome of your actions have already been determined.

If that's the case, then what's the fucking point of living? I really do not get it.
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Well, you can still do what you like, you just can't decide what that is.
 
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Vecr said:
Yeah, it is hard to tell how much quantum effects have on human thought.

But I don't think that would help, because that just makes the actions you take more randomly selected, and does not give you free will.
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Apparently, there may actually even be quantum randomness at the individual neuronal level. Neurons are very weird.
 
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Take that dad
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An Account said:
"If you think quantum randomness debunks this, watch this guy."

Well I watched that guy, and he didn't discredit quantum randomness being a factor at all.
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We are far from having a concensus in Quantum Mechanics.
Also, I am afraid that randomness is not the same thing as freedom, abrahamic religions love to enfantize that we have free will, perhaps the exception are Calvinists, Mormons and Jansinists who believe in Determinism.
Fact of the matter is it doesn't really matter, Eastern religions don't have a concept of "freedom" as we Westerners do, Karma is a relationship of cause and effect, not a system of morality, this is why Westerners like Nietzsche used to think that dharmic religions are nihilistic and atheistic because they lack a system of morality, for them anything that is not Karma is "Maya" (माया ) which literally means delusion.
 
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Muh_Soggy_Knee said:
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I think it’s funny he uses the nature argument. In animals, homosexuality usually occurs for these reasons:
  • Socializing: hyenas are known to banish males, and females will use fake penises when other females are horny
  • Asserting dominance: male lions will do this to humiliate other male lions, as a way to show power
  • Lack of available mates: this is like being prison gay in the animal kingdom
A reason non human animals won’t be homosexual:
  • Forming strong and loving relationships that go beyond sex
 
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