Star Wars Griefing Thread (SPOILERS) - Safety off

[SirQuicksand]

Between this film and Cats getting all this scathing reception from critics going full force, I'd say just breakout some popcorn and read the reviews.

 

[RumblyTumbly]

I hate to be that guy that says "OT was better than everything" but two aspects that the OT got right over what the PT and ST did?

1) Romance: Han and Leia is still the reigning champion couple in Star Wars history. Their meeting, coming together, and ultimate union was great and resulted in two of the greatest movie kisses of all time in Empire Strikes Back. In the PT, we get the "Twilight before there was Twilight" romance between Padme and Anakin which was just two young people making goo-goo eyes at each other and saying dumb things, and in the ST, we got two of the most awkward movie kisses I've ever seen. Finn/Rose did not work as a couple (Rose's friendzoning in Rise is hilarious) and don't even get me started on the Reylo crap.

2) The Force: In the PT, they use mitichlorians to provide an explanation for The Force that we never needed as well as enhancing the whole bloodlines concept that is just annoying. Actually, what sense does it make for the Jedi to not marry and procreate if the Force is a genetic trait? In the ST, the characters can seemingly do just about anything, even if it contradicts what we've already seen and they expect us to just shrug our shoulders and go "Oh the Force, that explains it". In the ST, The Force is kept mysterious enough to have a magical feel to it and the abilities it grants are extraordinary without providing excessive plot armor or stupid excuses to move from Point A to Point B. Also in the OT, the Force wielders learn and master their abilities rather than just going "Ta-da! Look what I can do now!"

Simply put, OT wins everything.

 

[Ihavetinyweewee]

Yeah, it's for 13yr old boys, but they grew up, there's no reason Starwars couldn't either. One of the failings of the prequels was Lucas' insistance that it was for kids, yet packed them with ponderous politics about trade agreements that was boring to kids but too simplistic for adults, thus satisfying nobody.
And screw the whole 'Starwars is for everybody' narrative. Look at those numbers again. The audience was nearly 70% male (and a bunch of wives and girlfriends there under protest).
Sure girls can like Starwars (but most really could give a shit), nobody said they can't. Guys can like rom-coms, but they're not made for you, and shouldn't be obliged to pander to you. You never hear anyone say, 'what Love Actually needs is a car chase and a gun fight to get the teen boys in', so Kennedy can fuck off with her Force is female nonsense, the force penetrates and binds us.... It clearly has a dick.

Disagree completely. It's not that the prequels story couldn't work for the 7-13 boy demo. It's that Lucas didn't know how to reconcile a dark, portentous costume drama in an accessible way.

A less intense take in the vein of Borman's "Excalibur" was the roadmap...

It's not impossible, he just didn't have writing ability to pull it off. I also felt he lost what the Jedi are supposed to be(what Yoda was in ESB): space hippies...

But whatever, thats beside the point...

Star Wars with it's terms like "blasters", "anthropomorphic robots", cuddly aliens etc etc: will NEVER work catering to adults(or shouldn't). It's DNA is not designed as gritty or overly dark imo.

Trying to overly mature itself would just turn Star Wars into something it's not. It's just as bad as pandering to "wine moms"...

KOTOR is about the line you can push Star Wars in the adult direction...

Hearing EVS spout about a rated R Boba Fett movie: dumbest shit I ever heard...

As was mentiones before, you want adult Star Wars: go read Dune...

 

[verissimus]

I hate to be that guy that says "OT was better than everything" but two aspects that the OT got right over what the PT and ST did?

1) Romance: Han and Leia is still the reigning champion couple in Star Wars history. Their meeting, coming together, and ultimate coming together was great and resulted in two of the greatest movie kisses of all time in Empire Strikes Back. In the PT, we get the "Twilight before there was Twilight" romance between Padme and Anakin which was just two young people making goo-goo eyes at each other and saying dumb things, and in the ST, we got two of the most awkward movie kisses I've ever seen. Finn/Rose did not work as a couple (Rose's friendzoning in Rise is hilarious) and don't even get me started on the Reylo crap.

2) The Force: In the PT, they use mitichlorians to provide an explanation for The Force that we never needed as well as enhancing the whole bloodlines concept that is just annoying. Actually, what sense does it make for the Jedi to not marry and procreate if the Force is a genetic trait? In the ST, the characters can seemingly do just about anything, even if it contradicts what we've already seen and they expect us to just shrug our shoulders and go "Oh the Force, that explains it". In the ST, The Force is kept mysterious enough to have a magical feel to it and the abilities it grants are extraordinary without providing excessive plot armor or stupid excuses to move from Point A to Point B. Also in the ST, the Force wielders learn and master their abilities rather than just going "Ta-da! Look what I can do now!"

Simply put, OT wins everything.

I think part of the issue with all the movies since is that the new movies felt like they had to try to change the formula up a bit. For example, the prequels seemed aimed more at being far more of an action-adventure story that tried to delve into more serious subject matter and/or darker territory (i.e. the fall of republican order and of the Jedi). A lot of people just didn't seem to want Star Wars to go that direction.

 

[HeyYou]

You know what? Fuck RedLetterMedia and the Plinkett character.

They're dilettantes whose criticism of the prequels apply just as much, if not more so, to the Original Trilogy. All the while, they caked their "funny" reviews with a smug spicing of superficial film critiques and arbitrary criteria for what makes and doesn't make good stories. And the worst part is that every unoriginal critic parrots their reviews as if they're some sort of gospel.

But when the egg is on their face, they're quick to denounce or qualify their previous suggestions. "Oh," they say, "we never really thought Jar Jar was a perfect fit for Star Wars! Even though we said he was amazing for Star Trek!"

Thanks, RLM. You're part of the reason we're in the timeline where JJ ruined two classic Sci-fi films.

They were clearly being self-deprecating there, as in they know full well that Mike suggested JJ as a director for Star Wars and he's jokingly trying to backtrack and say it's not his fault. Also, they had a gag in that very video where Rich jokingly says that Star Wars was always schlock. They included the laughably bad Biggs deleted scene as evidence. My only problem is they parrot the "Marcia saved the movie, George is a hack" line of thinking, but overall I don't see how you can fault them for still finding the prequels bad. If we're talking about pure objectivity, no, another bad trilogy doesn't make a bad trilogy good.

 

[verissimus]

If we're talking about pure objectivity, no, another bad trilogy doesn't make a bad trilogy good.

I certainly agree with that, but I think I share lodoss warrior's befuddlement and annoyance as to how they (RLM) and other prequel haters were so ridiculously overcritical and on the nose with the prequels problems but have been relatively mum when critiquing TFA and even TLJ. I don't understand that. How can they honestly despise one and not the other as well even if it is for different reasons?

 

[SpiralStars]

Disagree completely. It's not that the prequels story couldn't work for the 7-13 boy demo. It's that Lucas didn't know how to reconcile a dark, portentous costume drama in an accessible way.

A less intense take in the vein of Borman's "Excalibur" was the roadmap...

It's not impossible, he just didn't have writing ability to pull it off. I also felt he lost what the Jedi are supposed to be(what Yoda was in ESB): space hippies...

But whatever, thats beside the point...

Star Wars with it's terms like "blasters", "anthropomorphic robots", cuddly aliens etc etc: will NEVER work catering to adults(or shouldn't). It's DNA is not designed as gritty or overly dark imo.

Trying to overly mature itself would just turn Star Wars into something it's not. It's just as bad as pandering to "wine moms"...

KOTOR is about the line you can push Star Wars in the adult direction...

Hearing EVS spout about a rated R Boba Fett movie: dumbest shit I ever heard...

As was mentiones before, you want adult Star Wars: go read Dune...

The problem with the prequels as movies was Episode I was a waste of time. Lucas decided to go for old style Disney movie appealing to children. So he made his 'lead' a child. Because of this. The love story couldn't progress, his training couldn't progress, his own character development couldn't progress. The ending of I is dumb in that Anakin blunders his way into destroying a key command ship. You had to develop a character like Qui-gon and Darth Maul, and dispose of him to fill the void. Then things that should of happened in I had to happen in II, the cornball romance was needed to speed up the relationship. Then III is now also doing double time. III would have been good if they didn't have to rush to reconcile PT to the Saga.

You can tell Lucas wanted to switch his target demo starting with Return and the Ewoks. His soon following TV movies which are down there with the Holiday Special. All the way into Ep I. He realized his saga wasn't going to fly as intended unless he aged up the movie target. Some for II and a lot more in III.

 

[HeyYou]

I certainly agree with that, but I think I share lodoss warrior's befuddlement and annoyance as to how they (RLM) and other prequel haters were so ridiculously overcritical and on the nose with the prequels problems but have been relatively mum when critiquing TFA and even TLJ. I don't understand that. How can they honestly despise one and not the other as well even if it is for different reasons?

I agree with you there. They started the "caustic critic nitpicking" trend that made Lucas so sick of everything that he sold Star Wars. Some of their criticisms in the Plinkett reviews of the prequels are just petty, but then they turn around and say that people can't create a list of all the ways that Rey is a Mary Sue because that's just nitpicking. The fact of the matter is they're doing exactly what prequel defenders are doing. They like Daisy Ridley as an actress so they kind of lukewarmly defend the character, and say there was potential there. People do the same thing with Anakin; they like Hayden Christensen and the idea of Anakin that the prequels were trying to get across, so they defend terrible acting and odd character moments. But then why is RLM so harsh on Anakin? Shouldn't they give the same credit to Anakin that they give to Rey? Someone should tweet to RedLetterMedia that RotS has an 80% Rotten Tomatoes score and is objectively better than TRoS.

 

[simulated goat]

I can tell you've never seen Lost (or you have fetal alcohol syndrome and liked it). One and a half seasons of Lost, supplemented by Wikipedia synopsi, opened my eyes to just how much of a hack JJ is. So none of this shit surprises me.

Sorta OT, but I saw JJ and 'Lost' for what they were immediately. I maybe watched it once, but my coworkers were so caught up in the shit, it was all they'd talk about. As an onlooker, I could see all of the dead ends and mystery boxes for what they were and after awhile started to have fun with it.

I used to work this shitty swing/graveyard hybrid shift. The bunch who got in earlier would talk about the newest episode that the next bunch hadn't seen yet because they'd been asleep (because they had to work at five am). After some weeks of being annoyed by constant chatter about this pointless TV show, I started messing with the kids on the later shift, casually dropping spoilers in I had learned from the early shift and driving them mad. Every "Nooooooooo! Don't me tell that! I haven't seen that yet!" was music to my evil ears, like any of it really mattered when it was obvious the writers were making it up as they went along (sound familiar?). When the whole thing blew up in the end and they were all disappointed, I just laughed.

I was not pleased to see him take over SW, to say the least.

 

[Creep3r]

I agree with you there. They started the "caustic critic nitpicking" trend that made Lucas so sick of everything that he sold Star Wars. Some of their criticisms in the Plinkett reviews of the prequels are just petty, but then they turn around and say that people can't create a list of all the ways that Rey is a Mary Sue because that's just nitpicking. The fact of the matter is they're doing exactly what prequel defenders are doing. They like Daisy Ridley as an actress so they kind of lukewarmly defend the character, and say there was potential there. People do the same thing with Anakin; they like Hayden Christensen and the idea of Anakin that the prequels were trying to get across, so they defend terrible acting and odd character moments. But then why is RLM so harsh on Anakin? Shouldn't they give the same credit to Anakin that they do to Rey? Someone should tweet to RedLetterMedia that RotS has an 80% Rotten Tomatoes score and is objectively better than TRoS.

Fucking thank you. I was trying to write something similar, but you just hit the nail on the head.

Another thing I'm seeing recently is people trying to shift blame away from Disney and blame everything on George for selling SW in the first place when really the main reason he sold this shit was because of petty nitpicking after almost 10 years of this shit. The prequels are weak, there's no arguing there, but their flaws don't justify Disney's garbage, and after 20 years how much longer can they keep dissecting that shit and drawing hate art of Lucas (at least with Disney's shit, their last movie came out a few days ago)? Just because the prequels were mediocre doesn't mean Disney's shit is in any way redeemable, its even less so. As I've said many times, the prequels even at their worst didn't retcon Luke and the gang's achievements or the overall plot of the OT, and any wrongdoing they did was pretty much ignored, rewritten, improved or slightly overlooked by eu writers, the fandom and mass media at the time, unlike with Disney shit which actively tries to fuck up as much of the OT and its characters as possible (along with anything that came before Disney) and all its mistakes are instead glorified by the nu-eu writers, the nu-fandom and the mainstream media who celebrate this mess and the degradation of cultural icons like Luke Skywalker and the devaluation of a story that was once considered a timeless classic of space/fantasy adventure. Hell try to criticize the prequel trilogy back then, people would just shrug, nod or disagree. Dislike Disney shit and you're pretty much on the nazi list.

And despite our disagreements over the Vong, I think we can both agree that it was still a better outcome for the characters and their successors than what Disney gave them.

 

[Calculus]

I certainly agree with that, but I think I share lodoss warrior's befuddlement and annoyance as to how they (RLM) and other prequel haters were so ridiculously overcritical and on the nose with the prequels problems but have been relatively mum when critiquing TFA and even TLJ. I don't understand that. How can they honestly despise one and not the other as well even if it is for different reasons?

For RLM anyway, they love the original Star Wars but they just don’t expect much anymore. There’s a big difference between what happened with The Phantom Menace (everyone expected something amazing) and the new trilogy where everyone knew it could flop again. They never did Plinkett reviews for the last two of the JJ Star Trek trilogy because as soon as the Khan plot leaked it was obvious it would suck. We probably won’t get a dedicated review for this one.

Regarding the “JJ should direct” thing, that was from the Star Trek 2009 review which was before the sequels came out. While it messes with canon a bit, ST2009 is a fully competent movie with no mystery boxes. The mistake Mike made was that he didn’t consider that the writers’ strike meant that JJ was unable to meddle with the script and so it was filmed exactly as it was written by Bob Orci. JJ is fine if you give him a script and make him stick to it.

 

[wtfNeedSignUp]

BTW something I always wondered, am I the only one who initially thought that Snoke's guards were the Knights of Ren?

 

[Creep3r]

While it messes with canon a bit, ST2009

Doesn't that take place in an alternate timeline disconnected from the original? Only thing it fucks over is Spock I think. STD seems to fuck more with things than any of JJ's shitty Trek films.

BTW something I always wondered, am I the only one who initially thought that Snoke's guards were the Knights of Ren?

I think someone in this thread once said that they were supposed to be the Knights of Ren at some point, but Rian didn't want to kill them off, but he also didn't want to use them because the film would be "too overcrowded".

 

[Doctor of Autism]

After thinking about it for awhile I will give my ranking of the Star Wars movies


IV = V = VI > III > RO = VII > Soylo > I > II = VIII > IX

The OT are a perfect trilogy that are on the same quality as the next and feel complete altogether with charming characters and great special effects that still hold up. Revenge of the Sith is the best of the prequels but has some clunky dialogue yet had the best action and felt the most well acted out of the prequels especially with Ian McDiarmid hamming it up along with most of the other actors who had fun along with some genuine emotional moments such as Order 66, Obi Wan and Anakin's final exchange, and the quiet scene where Anakin and Padme were just looking out.

Rogue One and The Force Awakens are good movies but both pander to nostalgia of those who love A New Hope, but have interesting ideas and some good characters in each. Phantom Menace was a really goofy film that had some really good action sequences but had really annoying or boring characters while Solo felt very unnecessary and forgettable yet had a more interesting cast and had much lower stakes.

The Last Jedi had numerous problems because of Rian's obsession with wanting to be clever and Kathleen Kennedy forcing her agenda the hardest out of the Sequel Trilogy films with how hard the film wanted to push a girl power message but unintentionally made every woman a bitch, really idiotic, or both. There was also the butchering of Luke Skywalker's character which was interesting on paper of him being jaded but it was poorly executed along with Rey's arc being ruined with her quipping in Crait. Attack of the Clones was bogged down by boring politics and the horrible romance between Anakin and Padme but had a fun third act and the Kenobi subplot was decent but Boba Fett did not need to be in the movie.

Rise of the Skywalker is honestly the worst film because it generates apathy while there were few good moments, they do not save the movie and it was the ultimate case of corporate pandering that tried to please two sides that are completely incompatible with each other while doubling down on the issues people had with the Sequel Trilogy such as retreading old ground, nostalgiabait and even having fucking mystery boxes despite this being the last film. All the ideas from The Force Awakens were unsatisfying and the movie tried very hard to be like other movies such as Return of the Jedi, Avengers:Endgame, and Harry Potter of all things. Even on a technical level this movie is the worst in the series with weird editing choices that felt like certain scenes were skipped, some of the lighting was making it hard to see things, and some of the costume design/make-up was inconsistent as Palpatine suddenly had red robes after sucking the life essence from Rey and Kylo, and Rey's death looked like Daisy Ridley was just lying down on the ground just to name a few. New characters were introduced that had no impact on the story besides being plot devices. The acting was wooden save for Adam Driver, Harrison Ford, Pryde's actor, Mark Hamill, and John Boyega; Outside of that, none of the actors really had anything to work with even Ian McDiarmid whose lines were mostly exposition and only hammed it up near the end but it was too late.

tl;dr The OT are fantastic films, III is the best of the PT but the PT were all bogged down by George Lucas' autism, and the ST had no plan and felt like a battle between two different directors that could not get along while Kathleen Kennedy was burning everything around her. The Side films were just okay.

 

[Vault Boy]

Fucking thank you. I was trying to write something similar, but you just hit the nail on the head.

Another thing I'm seeing recently is people trying to shift blame away from Disney and blame everything on George for selling SW in the first place when really the main reason he sold this shit was because of petty nitpicking after almost 10 years of this shit. The prequels are weak, there's no arguing there, but their flaws don't justify Disney's garbage, and after 20 years how much longer can they keep dissecting that shit and drawing hate art of Lucas (at least Disney's shit the last movie came out a few days ago)? Just because the prequels were mediocre doesn't mean Disney's shit is in any way redeemable, its even less so. As I've said many times, the prequels even at their worst didn't retcon Luke and the gang's achievements or the overall plot of the OT, and any wrongdoing they did was pretty much ignored, rewritten, improved or slightly overlooked by eu writers, the fandom and mass media at the time, unlike with Disney shit which actively tries to fuck up as much of the OT and its characters as possible (along with anything that came before Disney) and all its mistakes are instead glorified by the nu-eu writers, the nu-fandom and the mainstream media who celebrate this mess and the degradation of cultural icons like Luke Skywalker and the devaluation of a story that was once considered a timeless classic of space/fantasy adventure. Hell try to criticize the prequel trilogy back then, people would just shrug, nod or disagree. Dislike Disney shit and you're pretty much on the nazi list.

And despite our disagreements over the Vong, I think we can both agree that it was still a better outcome for the characters and their successors than what Disney gave them.

I love it when assholes like HelloGreedo endlessly bitched about the "damage" the Prequels cause and the OT changes for over a decade, but then don't say a word when Disney does the same shit and go out of their way to invalidate the accomplishments of the OT heroes.

Or how about tools like Dobson? They made hate art and constantly shit talked everything about the Prequels and George, but ever since Disney took over they've become holier-than-thou towards people who make the more modest criticism towards the Sequels.

Lack of consistency and hypocrisy are a hell of a combination.

 

[The Decimator]

How full was the theater? Did the audience clap or celebrate at any point?

Surprisingly, it was completely occupied. The only time they clapped was at the very end, although, admittedly, I was the one who started clapping because I was happy it was over.

I’ll have my complete thoughts posted later.

 

[Marissa Moira]

Palpatine made a shit load of clones, fucker could have easily modified their genes to be borne female and he could have had all the wives, daughters and and concubines that he wanted. Rey's parents could have been some dude who took a pregnant female palpy clone and helped her escape.

it would have at least been more interesting...

 

[CWCissey]

Palpatine made a shit load of clones, fucker could have easily modified their genes to be borne female and he could have had all the wives, daughters and and concubines that he wanted. Rey's parents could have been some dude who took a pregnant female palpy clone and helped her escape.

it would have at least been more interesting...

So you're saying that the Emperor should have gone and fucked himself?

 

[Marissa Moira]

So you're saying that the Emperor should have gone and fucked himself?

Well it worked for the Dark Elves.

 

[Shield Breaker]

In the ST, The Force is kept mysterious enough to have a magical feel to it and the abilities it grants are extraordinary without providing excessive plot armor or stupid excuses to move from Point A to Point B. Also in the ST, the Force wielders learn and master their abilities rather than just going "Ta-da! Look what I can do now!"

So what you are saying is that the people behind the Disney's trilogy let Todd Howard design the Force system?