Wuhan Coronavirus: Megathread - Got too big

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The Christmas Island detention centre/quarantine camp has dirty sheets, dead cockroaches and garbage internet. (archive) The families staying there aren't isolated from each other, most of them have to share bathrooms. If one person's got the Wu Flu, they're all gonna be stuck there a while.

Eight year old boy from Wuhan is the latest confirmed case in Queensland. (archive)

The two SA Coronavirus patients initially lied to authorities, saying they'd self quarantined. (archive)
One of them was symptomatic on the plane. Only confirmed contact point so far is a real estate auction, but they spent at least two days wandering around coughing on shit. SAPOL have taken their phones to retrace their steps. The big scary racists are coming out.
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Letter in Science claims that the NEJM paper find asymptomatic transmission was flawed.

Study claiming new coronavirus can be transmitted by people without symptoms was flawed
By Kai Kupferschmidt Feb. 3, 2020 , 5:30 PM

A paper published on 30 January in The New England Journal of Medicine (NEJM) about the first four people in Germany infected with a novel coronavirus made many headlines because it seemed to confirm what public health experts feared: that someone who has no symptoms from infection with the virus, named 2019-nCoV, can still transmit it to others. That might make controlling the virus much harder.

Chinese researchers had previously suggested asymptomatic people might transmit the virus but had not presented clear-cut evidence. “There’s no doubt after reading [the NEJM] paper that asymptomatic transmission is occurring,” Anthony Fauci, director of the U.S. National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, told journalists. “This study lays the question to rest.”

But now, it turns out that information was wrong. The Robert Koch Institute (RKI), the German government’s public health agency, has written a letter to NEJM to set the record straight, even though it was not involved in the paper.

The letter in NEJM described a cluster of infections that began after a businesswoman from Shanghai visited a company near Munich on 20 and 21 January, where she had a meeting with the first of four people who later fell ill. Crucially, she wasn’t sick at the time: “During her stay, she had been well with no sign or symptoms of infection but had become ill on her flight back to China,” the authors wrote. “The fact that asymptomatic persons are potential sources of 2019-nCoV infection may warrant a reassessment of transmission dynamics of the current outbreak.”

But the researchers didn’t actually speak to the woman before they published the paper. The last author, Michael Hoelscher of the Ludwig Maximilian University of Munich Medical Center, says the paper relied on information from the four other patients: “They told us that the patient from China did not appear to have any symptoms.” Afterward, however, RKI and the Health and Food Safety Authority of the state of Bavaria did talk to the Shanghai patient on the phone, and it turned out she did have symptoms while in Germany. According to people familiar with the call, she felt tired, suffered from muscle pain, and took paracetamol, a fever-lowering medication. (An RKI spokesperson would only confirm to Science that the woman had symptoms.)

Hoelscher was not on the call, he says. “I asked the Bavarian Health and Food Safety Authority whether the information from that phone conversation called for a correction and I was told that is not the case,” he says. (The Bavarian ministry of health, of which the agency is part, has not responded to a request for information from ScienceInsider.) But RKI disagreed. The agency’s spokesperson confirms that a letter about the error has been submitted to NEJM. RKI also informed the World Health Organization (WHO) and European partner agencies about the new information.

“I feel bad about how this went, but I don’t think anybody is at fault here,” says virologist Christian Drosten of the Charité University Hospital in Berlin, who did the lab work for the study and is one of its authors. “Apparently the woman could not be reached at first and people felt this had to be communicated quickly.”

Marc Lipsitch, an epidemiologist at the Harvard T.H. Chan School of Public Health, says calling a case asymptomatic without talking to the person is problematic. “In retrospect, it sounds like this was a poor choice,” he says. However, “In an emergency setting, it’s often not possible to talk to all the people,” he adds. “I’m assuming that this was an overstretched group trying to get out their best idea of what the truth was quickly rather than somebody trying to be careless.”

The Public Health Agency of Sweden reacted less charitably. “The sources that claimed that the coronavirus would infect during the incubation period lack scientific support for this analysis in their articles,” says a document with frequently asked questions the agency posted on its website yesterday. “This applies, among other things, to an article in [NEJM] that has subsequently proven to contain major flaws and errors.” Even if the patient’s symptoms were unspecific, it wasn’t an asymptomatic infection, says Isaac Bogoch, an infectious disease specialist at the University of Toronto. “Asymptomatic means no symptoms, zero. It means you feel fine. We have to be careful with our words.”

Hoelscher agrees that the paper should have been clearer about the origin of the information about the woman’s health. “If I was writing this today, I would phrase that differently,” he says. The need to share information as fast as possible, along with NEJM’s push to publish early, created a lot of pressure, he says.

Given how fast data are coming out amid the growing global crisis, it’s good to read even peer-reviewed papers with some extra caution at the moment, Lipsitch says: “I think peer review is lighter in the middle of an epidemic than it is at normal speed, and also the quality of the data going into the papers is necessarily more uncertain.”

The fact that the paper got it wrong doesn’t mean transmission from asymptomatic people doesn’t occur. Fauci, for one, still believes it does. "This evening I telephoned one of my colleagues in China who is a highly respected infectious diseases scientist and health official," he says. "He said that he is convinced that there is asymptomatic infection and that some asymptomatic people are transmitting infection." But even if they do, asymptomatic transmission likely plays a minor role in the epidemic overall, WHO says. People who cough or sneeze are more likely to spread the virus, the agency wrote in a situation report on Saturday. “More data may come out soon. We will just have to wait,” Lipsitch says.

The German cluster does reveal another interesting aspect about the new virus, Drosten says. So far most attention has gone to patients who get seriously ill, but all four cases in Germany had a very mild infection. That may be true for many more patients, Drosten says, which may help the virus spread. “There is increasingly the sense that patients may just experience mild cold symptoms, while already shedding the virus,” he says. “Those are not symptoms that lead people to stay at home.”
 
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This one is on one of the researchers in the P4 Wuhan Lab trying to tai chi off the blame by stating that the virus was not caused by their leak. He gets almost instantly BTFO'd by an alleged professor's wall of text blaming the creative protocols that some Chinese labs use, including:
  • Selling off animals used for experiments on the legal and black markets, such as Labradors and other dogs as pets (Peking Union Medical College), some macacas ( Southern Medical University ) and the good ol' taking out white mice as pets.
  • Slipshod handling of animal corpses to save costs on cremation as per normal protocol.
  • Not handling the SPF (?) eggs properly, as he had two students snacking on em for supper.
  • Divvying up the pork among the lab personnel ( 301 Hospital Orthopedic Department experiment pigs )
Wow. A couple people suggested Chang the janitor selling research animals to the markets. If this is true, I'm amazed we haven't seen more plagues already. Why the fuck would LAB PERSONNEL be eating research material?! Chinese Chernobyl indeed.

images (7).png

"YOU NO SEE PORK AND EGGS! THIS MAN DERRUSIONAR TAKE HIM TO INFIRMARRY"
 
The conditions of the Chinese couple in Rome got worse enough for both of them to be moved to Intensive Care Unit.

Source in Italian:

Summary + background infos from older articles:

- The man is a biochemical engineer, 66 yo, his wife is a year younger.
- The woman up to some hours ago only suffered from continuous nausea and vomit, while the man had already fever, asthenia and both lungs significantly inflamed.
- Doctors say they both need steady oxygen therapy, their clinical condition is 'compromised but stable'. They are also treating them with unspecified ''experimental antiviral drugs', beside antibiotics for him and local treatment for her conjunctivitis.
- Eleven other people showing symptoms and recently come back from Hubei are currently monitored and kept isolated at the same hospital, waiting for the tests results. 26 others have been released after negative results came in.

This can be really interesting, as we can see how old or otherwise immunocompromised patients deal with the virus in a 1st world country and how deadly this could turn out to be.


ETA:
it turned out she did have symptoms while in Germany. According to people familiar with the call, she felt tired, suffered from muscle pain, and took paracetamol, a fever-lowering medication. (An RKI spokesperson would only confirm to Science that the woman had symptoms.)

So this asshole first hid her fugitive parents escaping Wuhan at her place, did not come forward when she got sick, flew to Germany anyway and just suppressed her symptoms, like that woman who bragged on Weechat about escaping from Hubei by stuffing herself with antypiretics (and then she got promptly BTFO by her fellow Chinamen). She only got caught because she got worse once back in Shanghai - or whatever place she comes from-. I feel I am about to get MOTI.
 
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Wow. A couple people suggested Chang the janitor selling research animals to the markets. If this is true, I'm amazed we haven't seen more plagues already. Why the fuck would LAB PERSONNEL be eating research material?! Chinese Chernobyl indeed.

View attachment 1129829
"YOU NO SEE PORK AND EGGS! THIS MAN DERRUSIONAR TAKE HIM TO INFIRMARRY"
You know, the Animal Biotech teacher that taught me loved to make jokes about studies on pigs finishing in some nice jamón banquets... We all laughed because everyone understood how stupid that was, even on studies about non-transmittable shit. Now I wonder if he taught the chinese when he was younger and they didn't get it. I'll have to ask him, see if he might be to blame for all of this in the end.
 
So anyways, this idea that it’s just like regular flu in that it only kills the old and vulnerable smells a little suspect. There’s every reason for the CCParty to promote that idea if we’re going by the damage control hypothesis, after all, and only now have there been outbreaks in more transparent countries.
 
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In case any one of your kiwis work at a molecular lab and has blast software, here is a conspiracy theory that can easily be proven/debunked:

You can ignore all other claims in the article but note how he claimed to have found an nCov S protein analogue in pShuttle-SN (Addgen #16402) potentially better than RaTG13.
Does it really match?
 
So anyways, this idea that it’s just like regular flu and only kills the old and vulnerable smells a little suspect. There’s every reason for the CCParty to promote that idea if we’re going by the damage control hypothesis, after all, and only now have there been outbreaks in more transparent countries.
Relax, it's not just the CCP saying it, we have ample comfirmations from independent labs all over the globe. The symptoms are known. The virus has already been isolated and analyzed.

Look I know it may seem like I don't worry. I assure you that's not the case. Multiple of my loved ones are immunocompromised or would suffer greatly due to their loved ones being so. So I am fucking panicking myself, but that's precisely why I keep telling people to relax and detailing the protocol, because alterations to it just put you, and therefore everyone around you, in further risk.

Look. I don't have accounts with free full access to scientific papers, so I can't link shit, but I did search in the uni's campus computers which do in the past and I'm still checking with proffessors and medical progessionals and consensus is out, this is a pneumonia virus. If you want corroboration just go to your closest university campus, use their library computers, and go check it. It's really not that bad.
 
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Remember, if you find this objectionable, you're RACIST, shouts the Pollution Goblin Chinks and their Useful idiot Commies in the West.


View attachment 1129220

These fuckers deserve an epidemic.

Before seeing this I didn't have much emotional investment in any of this. After seeing this I am totally rooting for Corona-Chan.
 
Relax, it's not just the CCP saying it, we have ample comfirmations from independent labs all over the globe. The symptoms are known. The virus has already been isolated and analyzed.

Look I know it may seem like I don't worry. I assure you that's not the case. Multiple of my loved ones are immunocompromised or would suffer greatly due to their loved ones being so. So I am fucking panicking myself, but that's precisely why I keep telling people to relax and detailing the protocol, because alterations to it just put you, and therefore everyone around you, in further risk.

Look. I don't have accounts with free full access to scientific papers, so I can't link shit, but I did search in the uni's campus computers which do in the past and I'm still checking with proffessors and medical progessionals and consensus is out, this is a pneumonia virus. If you want corroboration just go to your closest university campus, use their library computers, and go check it. It's really not that bad.

There are not enough international cases to claim "ample confirmation" and the few international cases studied have not been exposed to the virus as long as in Wuhan. We need independent data collection and analysis from the Chinese cases, which we don't have, or we need to wait several more weeks to collect our own. There are still open and novel concerns that it reinfects people who go into remission and claims that the virus incubates to dangerous levels without symptoms. Not to mention claims of sequela. Those couldn't possibly be known with any certainty yet.
 
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If China has to shut down another province, or a major company pulls out entirely, or this thing goes another month, we're looking at very serious damage to the Chinese economy.
I know nothing about economics, but I do know quite a bit about plagues, and can say with almost total certainty that this will not be stopping before March.
It’s just getting going, and it’s too far gone to be nipped in the bud. India and Africa haven’t reported significant transmission yet. Once this hits those areas and the Philippines, and it’s gone through a few cycles of transmission, we will be able to see what we are really looking at.
Reminder that a 2% kill rate is a. Pulled out of their arses and b. Comparable to the lower estimates of 1918 flu. 2% is not the comforting figure the news outlets think it is.
 
Relax, it's not just the CCP saying it, we have ample confirmations from independent labs all over the globe. The symptoms are known. The virus has already been isolated and analyzed.

Look I know it may seem like I don't worry. I assure you that's not the case. Multiple of my loved ones are immunocompromised or would suffer greatly due to their loved ones being so. So I am fucking panicking myself, but that's precisely why I keep telling people to relax and detailing the protocol, because alterations to it just put you, and therefore everyone around you, in further risk.

Look. I don't have accounts with free full access to scientific papers, so I can't link shit, but I did search in the uni's campus computers which do in the past and I'm still checking with professors and medical professionals and consensus is out, this is a pneumonia virus. If you want corroboration just go to your closest university campus, use their library computers, and go check it. It's really not that bad.

so not bad unless your healthcare system gets overwhelmed ? Means only China gets fucked ? Damn One Nurgle sacrifice coming right up
 
$242 B is a lot higher than the $175 B they announced last week.

Pardon my speculation, but my best guess it will take about $1 T in capital over the next 30 days to keep the Shanghei and Shenzhen markets afloat. Businesses will only stay in business through the use of promissory notes and lines of credit that will have to be paid back. If the public health emergency extends a single day into March, they will need to sink about the same amount into the markets to stop a full-on route.

There are many Chinese businesses that won't survive this crisis unless the CCP decides to intervene. Which might happen, it's important to remember party members get access to preferred shares in these companies, often for free, so they have an incentive to prop them up. But cash injections don't stop the bleeding, supply chains are really what's at stake.

For the West, the most recognizable business in Wuhan is Foxconn, which had more than 30,000 employees there at the time of the incident. 2 of their factories are shut down, each was already running third shifts to keep up with demand. Net production is down to zero, they supply parts used for every Apple device (along with stuff for Microsoft.) Those Foxconn plants were built there to have greater proximity to a network of suppliers in Hubei which are also shut down.

Hard to appreciate the scale of this clusterfuck. It's not like someone can sound the all clear and everyone will return back to work, it's going to take days / weeks for that entire supply chain to get back up to capacity after the public health emergency is over. Meanwhile, Apple might not stick around. You only learn so much from those guys, but word is they are moving production of a number of components to Vietnam. Who knows if they will remain, Tim Cook seems to be the only true champion for China in that company. Microsoft is sourcing vendors throughout Asia / South Pacific for a number of industrial parts, they seem to want out badly.

China's GDP is like $12 Trillion and they hold about $1 Trillion in US Debt. Taking $1 Trillion to prop up companies doesn't actually take away from that number so long as those companies can continue generating revenue afterwards. While the CCP has a lot of levers they can pull to keep "customers" in line, they are not infinite. China is currently outsourcing a lot of work throughout the East, it's pretty easy for foreign companies to go direct to the subcontractors for their parts.

So the real risk is, the longer this goes on, the greater the likelihood revenue streams running through China terminate irrevocably.

The CCP can't just start culling the diseased because they need those people on factory floors, and they can't do mass forced labor under pandemic conditions because people will just start dropping dead. Instead, they are forced to sit on their hands while this thing runs its course, and that's not a good thing for the rest of the world. It's going to fuck up other economies through companies who are suddenly spending money on startup costs to get going in Malasia and who are going to experience increased costs due to increased demand.

And that's just the start. It's not safe to assuming people suffering from the virus can return to full productivity after recovery. My understanding is victims have a diminished capacity characterized by lung damage and problems with the immune system. Depending on the degree to which infection rates are being underreported, China might not actually get its workforce back, only a portion.

If China has to shut down another province, or a major company pulls out entirely, or this thing goes another month, we're looking at very serious damage to the Chinese economy. Which means very serious damage to all the economies of the West. If the CCP tries to claim 6% growth for 2020 - which those Communist liars absolutely will - we're going to see economic warfare on a scale never before witnessed in the history of markets. The ambitions of the English during the Boxer Rebellion will look tame by comparison, the whole fucking country could turn into a slave labor colony owned by Goldman Sachs and operated by the CCP.

All of this because the Chinese don't wash their hands, they hate doctors, and they steal technology they're not equipped to handle. They're receiving a very pragmatic lesson in why intellectual property matters and why collectivist politics are complete shit.

To a large degree I think they are more fucked long term than a lot of people realize.

Lets say all of this stops immediately. No more suspected cases and no more deaths. Pretty much a best case scenario. What happens then?

Well the party gets to toot its horn about beating the demon and going on and on about how all of their measures are justified. Yet a lot of the investors/companies out there will walk away with a very different lesson, something to the effect of "a country of 1.3bil did all this over a flu that killed a couple hundred. Imagine what they'll do if there are real political troubles...." When the HK protest were popping off there was a lot of, imho silly, questions about things hopping to the mainland. But one of the valid questions was what a crackdown would look like if it did happen. Now everyone has an idea of what sort of measures the communist would be willing to take if things get bad.

And the above is assuming everything stops right now. That is very unlikely, and chances are this is only going to get worse over the next week+. There are going to be more demonstrations of CPC incompetence, overreaching and in general dumb shit. That, more than factories being shut down for a few weeks, is what will hurt them long term economically. If anyone thinks this is going to be a bad few quarters and nothing more, then just pay attention to vietnam over the next few years. That country has been getting close to having a complete supply chain for consumer electronics, now its pretty much guaranteed to happen in a year or two - unless wuflu decimates them.

They were struggling with dust while we were figuring out dot matrix.

The Soviets were building computers with stolen parts, there was actually a gaming scene going on. They had modems, you just couldn't count on them working.

Had they reached the point of being able to create their own microprocessor, there would never have been a telecommunications infrastructure capable of supporting distributed networking. All the stolen IP in the world does not a supply chain make. Buying from the West would have bankrupted them faster than a nuclear accident.



Wuhan is turning into a bad sci-fi novel.

Not sure how anyone denies the CCP is lying about the numbers, no country does this except in extreme circumstances. They're creating a necropolis.

Something I've been wondering, when does the law of diminishing returns kick in? When does it become cheaper to just shoot the infected rather than treat them? The PR hit would be severe, but it would allow them to keep their economy intact.
I guess the shit will hit the "tourism industry" in Thailand very hard.

There is a fun CIA report about microchip fabrication in the USSR. They had no problem designing competent chips, after all the USSR had a very good mathematics curriculum compared to other nations. But the conditions they tried to mass produce chips in was abhorrent - "Clean rooms? What the fuck are those cyka" says Ivan Ivanovich.
 
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