William James Mitchell vs. Twin Galaxies LLC, Jeff Harrist & Jeremy Young & donkeykongforum.com, Benjamin Q Smith

[Iron Hamster]

The advantage of using an emulator is that you can save your progress as you play. Playing on MAME gave Billy the ability to endlessly replay each stage until he got the score he desired. There would've been very little prestige in setting the record on MAME because of how easy it would be to cheat.

Are you saying he's the original DSP?

 

[737 MAX Stan Account]

I would love to see this play out in court.
"Your, he accused me of cheating in video games!"
Also, why does Mitchell look like a full-sized midget?

 

[Markorian]

The issue seems to be that people are treating his (apparently obvious) use of MAME as actual cheating, even though it doesn't mean he cheated, and he's refusing to admit something that appears pretty obvious, because it would be tantamount to admitting cheating, but nobody has explained how (unless he actually was cheating) he actually got any advantage out of using an emulator. For all I know, it could have actually made it more difficult.

They were entirely justified in removing his records, though, if he didn't do them on an actual original system, as the rules require. It may be, though, that he didn't actually cheat, as such, other than in a strictly technical sense.

The issue is that MAME is in a separate category due to requiring much stricter verification methods, due to how easy it is to cheat. This is the equivalent to watching a guy play a game with a gameshark in the system (or action replay if you're a zoomer), he denies that there's a gameshark, but I guess it's not confirmed he's using it to cheat even though his verification doesn't even come close to meeting the much stricter standard that would be imposed upon him.

 

[Christ Cried]

Good on Apollo for not being a frothing sperg and dropping the lawsuit like a sane person when he realized it might not be worth it.

 

[I can't imagine]

That's the thing: he didn't follow rules, hid information, has very doubious tapes and refuses to address any criticism except by saying "It's original hardware". He had ample time to address everything, and he didn't. He dropped scores on leaderboards he had no rights to be on. Therefore, he cheated to get his fame.

It might not be cheating in the sense video editing, cheat codes, glitches (twin galaxies cares about those)... It's cheating in the sense of rulebreaking.

That's pretty much it. If he'd started out the dispute by saying he'd been assured it was correct hardware, apologized if that was in error, and voluntarily withdrew the scores when evidence came out, he'd have had a real chance of coming out of this with the rest of his scores intact. It would've saved face for TG (who already had a big hit to their reputation due to the Todd Rogers situation) and for Billy (since he'd have come across as honest).

Instead, he doubled down, insisted everyone else were liars out to get him, and demanded that they give him special treatment because he's Billy Mitchell.

 

[AnOminous]

The advantage of using an emulator is that you can save your progress as you play. Playing on MAME gave Billy the ability to endlessly replay each stage until he got the score he desired. There would've been very little prestige in setting the record on MAME because of how easy it would be to cheat.

Allegedly he has witnesses who actually saw him play the game, though. At least that's what he says. And they say he refused to produce any of these or participate in any way in the investigation of the issue so he can't complain now because he had his chance to present his side and refused to.

 

[KimCoppolaAficionado]

Allegedly he has witnesses who actually saw him play the game, though. At least that's what he says. And they say he refused to produce any of these or participate in any way in the investigation of the issue so he can't complain now because he had his chance to present his side and refused to.

One of his witnesses was the "Human Element" himself, Todd Rogers (a notorious videogame cheat who claimed outright impossible times and scores and only got caught once TAS and frame data analysis showed that his scores were impossible), and the other is... questionable at best, and also not available for comment since he's currently serving a child rape sentence.

 

[Markorian]

One of his witnesses was the "Human Element" himself, Todd Rogers (a notorious videogame cheat who claimed outright impossible times and scores and only got caught once TAS and frame data analysis showed that his scores were impossible), and the other is... questionable at best, and also not available for comment since he's currently serving a child rape sentence.

I almost wish Todd were filing the lawsuit, because in all truthfulness, he's much more entertainingly dumb than Billy. Billy probably is still one of the better players in the world at a lot of arcade games, he just has an ego where only #1 is good enough for him, and he'll sue anybody that mocks him.
Todd however is an outright retard that, for a short list of examples, claims to be better than a perfect TAS run, got exactly 20,000,000 points (it's sort of a recurring theme that his most outlandish scores also are exact millions) on a game that can only count to 16,777,215, has the number 1 spot in over 1700 games, and his famous "human element" quote is in reference to setting records with lower times than limits hard coded into the game. He also spergs about speedrunning because it basically replaced old style high-score records, and his refusal to allow speedrun records at twin galaxies is probably the biggest reason that the company is a tiny fraction of the size it used to be.
He's like a toddler, really. 2nd place would be something like 50,000 points, and his would be 2 million.

 

[AnOminous]

Also, why does Mitchell look like a full-sized midget?

I don't know, but maybe if there's a movie, they should have him played by Peter Dinklage sized up with CGI.

 

[Markorian]

I don't know, but maybe if there's a movie, they should have him played by Peter Dinklage sized up with CGI.

It wasn't sized up, but there is already a parody version of him in a movie, played by Peter Dinklage. It's just a really shit movie.

 

[I can't imagine]

I almost wish Todd were filing the lawsuit, because in all truthfulness, he's much more entertainingly dumb than Billy. Billy probably is still one of the better players in the world at a lot of arcade games, he just has an ego where only #1 is good enough for him, and he'll sue anybody that mocks him.
Todd however is an outright exceptional individual that, for a short list of examples, claims to be better than a perfect TAS run, got exactly 20,000,000 points (it's sort of a recurring theme that his most outlandish scores also are exact millions) on a game that can only count to 16,777,215, has the number 1 spot in over 1700 games, and his famous "human element" quote is in reference to setting records with lower times than limits hard coded into the game. He also spergs about speedrunning because it basically replaced old style high-score records, and his refusal to allow speedrun records at twin galaxies is probably the biggest reason that the company is a tiny fraction of the size it used to be.
He's like a toddler, really. 2nd place would be something like 50,000 points, and his would be 2 million.

If anyone wants to see some of this hilarity, this Google Doc (archive) is a compendium of his suspicious/impossible scores, with the 2nd place scores listed next to them for perspective. Some are literally impossible (the game will have a kill screen before you can get them, the score is hard capped below the number, or the score isn't actually a number the code is capable of creating without glitches); others are games with linear scoring, where his scores would require many hours (one is approximately 325 hours, or almost 2 weeks) of consecutive play to actually achieve.

 

[GethN7]

From what I know of savestates, they are a literal digital rewind button of the exact state of the program, and like all data, even that can be meddled with to disguise any timestamps that would give it away (though this also has it's own tells that can give away the further manipulation). On the technical front, emulation is far from 1:1 perfect, even for the systems coded by hyper autists obsessed with cycle accuracy, and given super autism is a requirement of vetting original hardware was indeed used to prevent circumvention of the rules, it boggles the mind anyone would be foolish enough to pass off emulator footage as actual game footage in a community that is hyper sensitive to the differences between a simulation and the actual arcade machine the simulation is trying to emulate.

From a legal standpoint, if the emulator in question is well documented, then it should be very easy to present clear technical evidence proving the exact differences from the actual hardware alongside video footage comparison of said differences in action. If this man is truly stupid enough to argue he told the truth if that is used to spike his story, he is truly a moron without compare.

 

[AnOminous]

It wasn't sized up, but there is already a parody version of him in a movie, played by Peter Dinklage. It's just a really shit movie.

Oh, shit you're for real. Literally nobody watched that movie but it's too bad they didn't take advantage of what is absolutely perfect casting.

For anyone who also didn't know.

 

[I can't imagine]

From what I know of savestates, they are a literal digital rewind button of the exact state of the program, and like all data, even that can be meddled with to disguise any timestamps that would give it away (though this also has it's own tells that can give away the further manipulation). On the technical front, emulation is far from 1:1 perfect, even for the systems coded by hyper autists obsessed with cycle accuracy, and given super autism is a requirement of vetting original hardware was indeed used to prevent circumvention of the rules, it boggles the mind anyone would be foolish enough to pass off emulator footage as actual game footage in a community that is hyper sensitive to the differences between a simulation and the actual arcade machine the simulation is trying to emulate.

From a legal standpoint, if the emulator in question is well documented, then it should be very easy to present clear technical evidence proving the exact differences from the actual hardware alongside video footage comparison of said differences in action. If this man is truly stupid enough to argue he told the truth if that is used to spike his story, he is truly a moron without compare.

If you're interested in the specifics of this situation, there's a pretty decent explainer video by Omnigamer that covers the specifics of what the differences are, and how they can be identified. If you want a shorter bit in written form, this post from the DK Forum covers it in good detail, with accompanying GIFs and screenshots. The TG dispute thread is also still available and covers a lot of the specifics, but it's incredibly long and kinda difficult to navigate. Overall, I'd say the case made against him was extremely compelling, as there are certain video "quirks" that exist between the two that are immediately noticeable at a frame-by-frame level; so noticeable that I'm pretty sure even a jury of people completely ignorant of the details of arcade PCBs and emulation could immediately recognize their presence.

As to whether or not he used save states, it's not super relevant to the TG lawsuit, since they didn't rule on whether he did or not, and never accused him of doing so. Some of the other defendants did openly suspect it, though stopped short of saying he actually did it.

 

[DiceindaMirror]

I just hope Todd's brother made something of himself, and didn't follow in his path.

 

[Scarlett Johansson]

I just hope Todd's brother made something of himself, and didn't follow in his path.

View attachment 1294001

Well that's a pedophile waiting to happen


....she said in the early 1980s.

 

[DragoonSierra]

a couple of convicted pedophiles.

Do tell.

I think you're mixing up your 80's gaming cheaters. Todd Rogers was the Human Element guy.

Honestly, I'm not sure which of them is worse. I mean, Billy at least had fake scores that were technically possible, and were later beaten. But at least Todd had enough good sense not to sue everyone after he got caught.

I think the tie-breaker is Billy Mitchell's sad, sad Twitch streams, where he tries to "prove" his DK skills to a couple dozen people a few times a week.

He could have redeemed himself if he had beat it again with a legit arcade cabinet. With how much money hes claiming he lost all it would cost is a $1000 and a plane ticket for the Twin Galaxies rep.

One of his witnesses was the "Human Element" himself, Todd Rogers (a notorious videogame cheat who claimed outright impossible times and scores and only got caught once TAS and frame data analysis showed that his scores were impossible), and the other is... questionable at best, and also not available for comment since he's currently serving a child rape sentence.

That doesnt prevent the sex offender from submitting an affidavit. Jesus I hope that happens. Please God let him have to explain that in court.

 

[I can't imagine]

He could have redeemed himself if he had beat it again with a legit arcade cabinet. With how much money hes claiming he lost all it would cost is a $1000 and a plane ticket for the Twin Galaxies rep.

He's scored 1m+ several times on stream, on purportedly legit cabinets, but it doesn't really matter. They won't accept any submissions from him at all; that was part of his punishment. He could score 1.3m+ on one of their own machines, approved by their people, with thousands watching, and it still wouldn't be recognized officially.

The streams did help a tiny bit, in the sense that it shows he is legitimately good at the game, but pretty much nobody doubted that in the first place. He had exceptionally high scores in random arcades years before MAME even existed, so nobody really questioned if he could get 1m points, just that the runs he submitted weren't ones where he did so legitimately.

 

[Zbk3VmLfujjzjxBd43tL]

If anyone wants to see some of this hilarity, this Google Doc (archive) is a compendium of his suspicious/impossible scores, with the 2nd place scores listed next to them for perspective. Some are literally impossible (the game will have a kill screen before you can get them, the score is hard capped below the number, or the score isn't actually a number the code is capable of creating without glitches); others are games with linear scoring, where his scores would require many hours (one is approximately 325 hours, or almost 2 weeks) of consecutive play to actually achieve.

My favorite with Todd Rodgers was when a TAS guy went through the code of one of the games he had the record at (Dragster IIRC) and found that the score was physically impossible to get.

As for how Todd got away with all this cheating, it's because Twin Galaxies is/was full of the same sort of cronyism that shielded Billy Mitchell (among others) for so long.

Well that's a pedophile waiting to happen


....she said in the early 1980s.

Here's what Todd looks like now. Ironically he is not one of the many pedos at Twin Galaxies (that we know of).

Do tell.

All in the main Twin Galaxies thread but here's some extra shit I've digged up about these cretins. There are several notable convicted pedophiles who were high up in this scene and with Twin Galaxies. Such as Steven Krogman who was the world record holder at Galaga (for over 15 years), Arkanoid, and one version of Tetris. In 2002 he got a lengthy sentence for raping a 12 year old girl and his stack of child porn but Twin Galaxies kept him around anyway. Here he is with Walter Day (Twin Galaxies founder and former owner) and Billy Mitchell in 2014.

Steve is friends with Ron Corcoran, another convicted pedophile. Ron was a referee for Twin Galaxies and part of their board of directors and had a few high scores in the past. He raped his daughter for years before the justice system caught up to him and put the sick fuck away with a 20 year prison sentence (although he may be out right now on early release). Here's an old post from Robert Mruczek (a former director at Twin Galaxies, former Missile Command high score holder, and supposedly violated some ethics regulation and had to quit) where Mruczek seems to be unhappy with both his friend Ron's behavior and also people discussing it.

Pictured here is Steve at the arcade with Ron Corcoran's daughter beside him.

And here's Ron Corcoran, his daughter, and Billy Mitchell.


Ron Corcoran is also friends with Lonnie Cancienne, arrested in 2009 for running around naked chasing women and public masturbation. Lonnie had previous charges for doing the same shit but that time underage girls. Probably trying to copy Custers Revenge or shit like that. Lonnie goes way back in this scene since he's the former world record holder of Asteroids. Here's a little discussion on him from the Twin Galaxies forum, confirming it's probably the same guy. Not totally sure about the Ron Corcoran links which may be a rumor.

There is also convicted pedophile, Ron Bailey, a former world record holder at Berzerk and notable in the early days of Twin Galaxies, appeared in the Twin Galaxies documentary Chasing Ghosts. Around this time he was convicted of raping several elementary school-aged boys he coached at one point and he's now serving an effective life sentence. He's not as close in with the rest of the Twin Galaxies clique so I can't find any appearances with Billy Mitchell.

 

[I can't imagine]

My favorite with Todd Rodgers was when a TAS guy went through the code of one of the games he had the record at (Dragster IIRC) and found that the score was physically impossible to get.

As for how Todd got away with all this cheating, it's because Twin Galaxies is/was full of the same sort of cronyism that shielded Billy Mitchell (among others) for so long.

Yeah, that was the Dragster one. Omnigamer was attempting to TAS the game, and discovered there was no actual way to achieve the time. In fact, the game's code was simple enough for him to generate a spreadsheet of all the possible outcomes the game can generate, which was a huge factor in starting to knock down the house of cards that was Rogers' accomplishments.

It's worth noting that back in the day, verification by official TG referees was considered equivalent (or superior) to videotaped evidence, so many of Rogers and Mitchell's records consisted of them and their buddies vouching for each others' legitimacy.