Valve monetizes mods (With Bethseda Launcher and Open Beta for Modding Released, Possible Return?)

[Stratomsk]

I don't know if he's telling the truth or lying for damage control.

Well as we've seen in the recent past fringe decisions have occurred without Gaben's knowledge or permission.

I wouldn't be surprised if this were a similar situation.

 

[lolwut]

Shit, just when I finally built a gaming rig, too. Fuck this, if anyone needs me, I'll be in my neckbeard cave playing PnP games by myself. GabeN thinks he's a gaming god? Well then Gary Gygax is motherfucking Cthulhu.

 

[Watcher]

Gaben is always late.
I don't know if he's telling the truth or lying for damage control.
I can't trust anyone no more.

He runs a corporation

You can only trust people in corporate positions when they have earned that trust and when they let their actions speak for themselves. These people go to seminars on a monthly basis to learn how to lie to their customers and convince them of completely wrong things so they can boost their sales.

As far as I'm concerned Gabe Newell's AMA means absolutely nothing. He is aware people are pissed about this system but Valve cannot simply tear it down or replace it on a moment's notice. This is something they'd have to negotiate with Bethesda's legal (he even admits in the AMA that the 75% split was something Bethesda decided upon, not Valve). If anything this was all Gabe Newell trying to shift the blame on Bethesda and off Valve. Getting Todd Howard to do an AMA would be significantly more useful than Gabe Newell.

 

[José Mourinho]

• Notable journalist, Milo who is popular among the GamerGate community, showed support for this idea: http://www.breitbart.com/london/201...-thing-but-valve-needs-to-communicate-better/
• Apparently there are possibilities for any paid mods to have DMCA takedown notices.
  Spoiler

  
• As of now, the petition for Valve to remove the paid mods has reached 100k signatures.
• Developer of Minecraft also showed his support for this idea. It seems that the majority of developers are supporting this idea atm.
• Spoiler

  
• Here's some more posts from Gabe's AMA on Reddit:
• Spoiler

  

  
  
  

  

  
• Even the main page of the Skyrim game page shows Workshop mods showing protest for this.
• Spoiler

  
• And time to wrap this up... with someone from r/PCMasterRace making a compilation of his quotes on Reddit AMA.
• Spoiler

  

 

[OBAMATRON]

What if mods monetized valves?

 

[IvanaHumpalot]

What statement baffles me from this shitstorm is people saying ''MODDERS ARE MAKING STUFF BECAUSE THEY LOVE DOING IT, THEY SHOULDN'T CHARGE FOR IT'', excuse me but what? That statement is simply moronic.

So you're saying if someone is making art as a hobby and they love doing it, they should never ever charge for their commissions? Fuck, even artists have upper hand there because they are perfectly free to sell fan-art commissions without giving royalities to copyright owners.

I do understand where's Valve at fault. This can be potentially harmful to modders in sense where someone can take their work, upload it to steam and claim it as theirs. If they want this to be even remotely successful they'll need to control and monitor mod workshop really hard. But what I've taken from this so far is only people screaming at Valve/some modders for being greedy.


Also, my gears were grinded because 2 modders that we're involved in this reveal are actually full time 3d artists and content creators, and yet, they got flakked and their profiles were spammed to oblivion.

Like I said, Valve should rework and fix this, but fuck people who say that modders are suddenly greedy for thinking maybe they can earn a penny from something that they enjoy doing and finally be given platform to do so. That's fucking stupid.

 

[Organic Fapcup]

What statement baffles me from this shitstorm is people saying ''MODDERS ARE MAKING STUFF BECAUSE THEY LOVE DOING IT, THEY SHOULDN'T CHARGE FOR IT'', excuse me but what? That statement is simply moronic.

So you're saying if someone is making art as a hobby and they love doing it, they should never ever charge for their commissions? Fuck, even artists have upper hand there because they are perfectly free to sell fan-art commissions without giving royalities to copyright owners.

I do understand where's Valve at fault. This can be potentially harmful to modders in sense where someone can take their work, upload it to steam and claim it as theirs. If they want this to be even remotely successful they'll need to control and monitor mod workshop really hard. But what I've taken from this so far is only people screaming at Valve/some modders for being greedy.

And I also like to note one thing in this whole debacle is argument that ''modders should get bigger percentage''. If I didn't know better, I'd say same, however you guys are seriously underestimating power of micro-transactions. I did same few months ago and boy was I wrong. (Also, don't expect me to say a lot more about this because I'm risking revealing my power level).

Also, my gears were grinded because 2 modders that we're involved in this reveal are actually full time 3d artists and content creators, and yet, they got flakked and their profiles were spammed to oblivion.

Like I said, Valve should rework and fix this, but fuck people who say that modders are suddenly greedy for thinking maybe they can earn a penny from something that they enjoy doing and finally be given platform to do so. That's fucking stupid.

A talented modder can set up a Patreon and link it in his mod pages. If he makes a good mod he can get more and more consistent amounts of money than with Steam Workshop's microtransactions, which don't even pay the modder unless they make at least 100$ a month.

Furthermore, as it's been stated multiple times, what exactly assures me that the mod won't cause some incompatibility? And why should I have to purchase a mod just so I can install a bunch of mods that require said paid mod to work (e.g. SkyUI)?

The entire issue about paid mods is that unlike with companies, there's nothing that guarantees that the mod will be a worthwile purchase, given the amateurish nature of modding in general.

 

[IvanaHumpalot]

A talented modder can set up a Patreon and link it in his mod pages. If he makes a good mod he can get more and more consistent amounts of money than with Steam Workshop's microtransactions, which don't even pay the modder unless they make at least 100$ a month.

Furthermore, as it's been stated multiple times, what exactly assures me that the mod won't cause some incompatibility? And why should I have to purchase a mod just so I can install a bunch of mods that require said paid mod to work (e.g. SkyUI)?

The entire issue about paid mods is that unlike with companies, there's nothing that guarantees that the mod will be a worthwile purchase, given the amateurish nature of modding in general.

That's why I said this system needs fixing. For example, give people 3 day trial or something to test it out if it works etc, and then if they like they can pay for it. And like I said, I really understand the problem with this.

On other hand, I have a hunch this isn't much about Valve themselves but Bethsedas work. I mean, isn't Skyrim one of the most modded games out there? Valve takes from this 30% of this as usually because they are delivering platform, but if people want modders to get bigger cut, they should complain to Bethseda, not Valve. Maybe Bethseda thought they could milk mods because there's so much of them and seeing Valve's games workshop, but someone apparently failed to inform Bethseda that, for example, TF2 workshop is not same as Skyrim mods and this ''pay for mods'' thing could cause such huge backslash.

I'm not saying this is perfect, it's far from perfect, but people are jumping to shitload conclusions. And in my eyes, notion that something should be free if you do it out of love is utter nonsense.

 

[MiloWuCollusion]

So much salt. On another note, Gaben has been answering questions on this subreddit.

Spoiler: A couple of answers.

This one in particular is pretty significant because it implies Gaben was not made aware of this system being put into place.

Looks like its at least getting a donation button, thank god.

It sounds more like he didn't thought it would generate so much backlash. He even had the corporate speak ready.

He knew. If anything this implies he did it in an half assed way.

 

[José Mourinho]

http://attackofthefanboy.com/news/valve-employee-admits-may-completely-wrong-regarding-paid-mods/

Grain of salt needed, but now it reached a point where even one employee admitted there may be wrong with paid mods.

The email begins as one would expect, with Walker defending the new system. But it ends in a surprising way. Valve’s employee closes his email with the following statement:


“…we may be completely wrong. In anything as complex as today’s games environment, you can never be certain in any prediction. If it turns out we are wrong, and that this somehow results in fewer good mods, or no free ones, or unhappy mod makers, then we’ll fix it, even if that means removing the feature entirely. The fundamental strength of the PC is that PC gamers improve their games, with or without the support of the developer, and we have every interest in keeping that alive.”

EDIT: Here's the original source:
https://www.reddit.com/r/pcmasterrace/comments/33uq3v/i_just_got_a_email_by_robin_walker_concerning/

 

[Organic Fapcup]

That's why I said this system needs fixing. For example, give people 3 day trial or something to test it out if it works etc, and then if they like they can pay for it. And like I said, I really understand the problem with this.

On other hand, I have a hunch this isn't much about Valve themselves but Bethsedas work. I mean, isn't Skyrim one of the most modded games out there? Valve takes from this 30% of this as usually because they are delivering platform, but if people want modders to get bigger cut, they should complain to Bethseda, not Valve. Maybe Bethseda thought they could milk mods because there's so much of them and seeing Valve's games workshop, but someone apparently failed to inform Bethseda that, for example, TF2 workshop is not same as Skyrim mods and this ''pay for mods'' thing could cause such huge backslash.

I'm not saying this is perfect, it's far from perfect, but people are jumping to shitload conclusions. And in my eyes, notion that something should be free if you do it out of love is utter nonsense.

The issue is both with Valve and Bethesda, because they both seriously thought paying for mods was a good idea in the first place. The system can't be fixed with a free trial period given the nature of Skyrim mods - all it'd take to pirate a mod would be to get the mod for a trial period, take the files added by the mod and upload them elsewhere.

The reason it works with games like TF2 is because, yeah, they're different types of mods. They're entirely cosmetic (modders don't get to decide weapon stats) and all the modder actually makes is a model that gets implemented in the game. They're a lot simpler in nature than, say, a gameplay or gameplay feature overhaul.

In the end, all paid mods encourage, and will ever encourage, is the increase of piracy (to get the mods for free) and the increase of DRM garbage (to protect the paid mods from being pirated).

EDIT: Oh yeah, and this paid mod shitstorm lead to over 5000 mods being removed from the Skyrim Nexus. Plus even the most amazing mod would likely get DMCA'd if it had another company's intellectual property. It's a limiting system, really.

Incidentally, I don't disagree with the idea that modders deserve to get paid for their work. I just think there's much better ways than sticking their work behind a paywall that takes most of their earnings.

 

[IvanaHumpalot]

The issue is both with Valve and Bethesda, because they both seriously thought paying for mods was a good idea in the first place. The system can't be fixed with a free trial period given the nature of Skyrim mods - all it'd take to pirate a mod would be to get the mod for a trial period, take the files added by the mod and upload them elsewhere.

The reason it works with games like TF2 is because, yeah, they're different types of mods. They're entirely cosmetic (modders don't get to decide weapon stats) and all the modder actually makes is a model that gets implemented in the game. They're a lot simpler in nature than, say, a gameplay or gameplay feature overhaul.

In the end, all paid mods encourage, and will ever encourage, is the increase of piracy (to get the mods for free) and the increase of DRM garbage (to protect the paid mods from being pirated).

EDIT: Oh yeah, and this paid mod shitstorm lead to over 5000 mods being removed from the Skyrim Nexus. Plus even the most amazing mod would likely get DMCA'd if it had another company's intellectual property. It's a limiting system, really.

Yeah I can see that. It sounds good on paper, but in practice is whole different story. Valve shot itself into foot when they said ''yes let's try it'' to this whole thing. Of course, it sucks if suddenly mods that were free before go behind paywall, I would definitely be pissed about it too. Maybe I would be more emotionally involved if I was part of Skyrim modding community, however I am part of Workshop one, and part where people are raiding workshoppers profile pages with incoherent rage and bullshiting is making me sad.

Maybe Valve is greedy, maybe they thought to try out this thing with mods. Maybe who fucking even knows anymore.

Don't hate the player, hate the fucking game.

EDIT: Seeing your last edit, I'd like to clarify one more thing, because I've seen people claiming modders will be paid in Steam bucks, which is lie. For every legitimate workshop stuff, Valve pays out directly to bank account.

Also, I'd like to repeat what I said in first post, even if 25% seems small, microtransaction bussines is insane.

 

[AnOminous]

• Notable journalist, Milo who is popular among the GamerGate community, showed support for this idea: http://www.breitbart.com/london/201...-thing-but-valve-needs-to-communicate-better/
• Apparently there are possibilities for any paid mods to have DMCA takedown notices.

I have my doubts that the DMCA will protect them if someone actually plans on suing them. The DMCA is intended to protect service providers who are hosting content created by third parties by immunizing the ISP from liability if they are prompt in taking down infringing content upon notification.

However, they aren't just hosting third party content. They're actually selling the items themselves and, taking 75%, are the primary seller.

The potential plaintiffs would be entitled to actual damages, such as illicit profits, and/or statutory damages of up to $150,000 per infringement, as well as injunctive relief and probably a bunch of other stuff I don't feel like elaborating on at the moment.

They're walking into a minefield, because the modding community that currently exists (or existed in the past tense if these assholes managed to kill it) has been very lax in paying attention to copyright issues. Because it's mostly been non-profit, most IP owners have been very slack about it.

But you can bet they're going to be deploying hordes of lawyers onto anything that starts selling for actual money.

 

[KingGeedorah]

I remember when good mod teams were rewarded with jobs like,

Battlefield 2, Red Orchestra 1-2, Counter Strike.

That should be modders incentive if they want money. A real job.

Microtransactions work in the market place right now, but no one has been happy about it other then developers.

 

[Takayuki Yagami]

This is a hypothetical question that I know the answer to from a business standpoint, greed, but don't understand from any other perspective. Why should companies recieve money from a paid mod born in response to obvious design oversights like skyui and SKSE? Does this mean Curse is going to charge me to update dbm every other week?

 

[KingGeedorah]

This is a hypothetical question that I know the answer to from a business standpoint, greed, but don't understand from any other perspective. Why should companies recieve money from a paid mod born in response to obvious design oversights like skyui and SKSE? Does this mean Curse is goin to charge me to update dbm every other week?

Heck, apparently they are trying to lock the Creation Kit behind a paywall now and selling back parts of it to modders as a " resources and modding" DLC. I mean for years it did nothing but help Bethesda. They decided that they had enough I guess.

Maybe they will actually bug test their games now...

 

[ZehnBoat]

my problem with paying for mods isn't so much paying for it. as so much that, iirc, the modder doesn't get much money
i'm buying a mod, i want the money to go to the guy who made it. not bathesda (iirc, they get a large chunk of cash for it to. a lot of money for doing nothing).

 

[A Ghost]

This is something they'd have to negotiate with Bethesda's legal (he even admits in the AMA that the 75% split was something Bethesda decided upon, not Valve). If anything this was all Gabe Newell trying to shift the blame on Bethesda and off Valve. Getting Todd Howard to do an AMA would be significantly more useful than Gabe Newell.

im not sure if bethesda wouldn't end up doing the same trying to blame Valve beside reddit is pretty pissed off at everyone involved at the moment im pretty sure the IMA would just boll down to people yelling at him and a down vote up vote war

 

[DrunkTails]

This idea sounds pretty awful to me. Why would you give modders a chance to profit on making mods for a game they do not own the IP of? Heck even if the modder has made a mod that contains a new continent's worth of stuff on it, he is still cannot sell it without the owner's consent.

This isn't TF2's fan made hats or weapons which, last I heard, have to go thru a process before approval.

 

[IvanaHumpalot]

my problem with paying for mods isn't so much paying for it. as so much that, iirc, the modder doesn't get much money
i'm buying a mod, i want the money to go to the guy who made it. not bathesda (iirc, they get a large chunk of cash for it to. a lot of money for doing nothing).

Not necessarily.

For a perspective, artist who makes Dota 2 cosmetics managed to buy a house with the earnings from workshop. And it's same percentage in question.