Star Wars Griefing Thread (SPOILERS) - Safety off

So I finally got to Vector Prime in my Legend EU reread I've been doing.

Anyone else thinks Leia kinda comes off a little too bitchy at the start? The way she chews out the Jedi Skidder is just flat out unprofessional and dictatorial. He responded to a friendly vessel being fired upon and waited till the enemy force shot first, yet Leia flat out tells him his personal money will be confiscated to repay any damages. She even cooly drops the line, "my brother will make sure of it." She even berates him for not knowing her really elaborate circuitous plan when there was no way he could have known about it beforehand. The rest of the command crew even goes along with it. It's like they fear her getting upset with them next.

I get Leia could be prickly before but that's quite the action from someone who is no longer chief of state.

It didn't jump out at me back in 2001, but now it really seems off for her.
It's been literally three years since I read Vector Prime, but I vaguely remember Leia already starting the book on a sour note by feeling a twinge of jealousy at how close Mara and Jaina are, due to the former training the latter and developing a seemingly closer mother-daughter relationship, as opposed to Leia and her daughter's constant feuding. I don't know if maybe her disposition with Wurth Skidder is just another casualty of that bad mood or what, but I'm not about to declare anything definitive. Even if that were true, though, it's not really in-character for Leia to lose her cool and act unprofessional, especially in a position of military authority...not when she commanded cells of the Rebel Alliance for 15 years. So, yeah...I'm confused too.

I will say, though, I did like how a major theme throughout a lot of NJO is Leia and her daughter butting heads. That felt realistic to me, not just because the Bantam books go out of their way to show that Jaina's more of a Daddy's Girl, and also
when you consider how much personal upbringing time Leia had missed by having Jaina separated with Winter for protection against various Imperial Threats as a little girl. That would've created some distance between them. But then NJO takes some time to let their mother-daughter relationship flourish some more as the war becomes grimmer, and culminates in a really sweet moment in Balance Point.

The Solo Family moments, bitter and heartwarming, were always a highlight of NJO, at least to me.

Seeing Luke's old Jedi Order is always a bittersweet reminder of his destroyed accomplishments, but oh well.
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It's not a bitter reminder if you never watched Ep. 8 and 9, which I didn't. Whenever I hear or read the phrase Jedi Master Luke or Luke's Jedi Order, ^that image is what springs to my mind. I never witness a poorly-handled, wildly-out-of-character Jake Skywalker in any tangible medium, so that version will never be imprinted on my mental image of him.

Feels fucking great.

The Vong were an attempt to shake up a stagnant EU. Say what you want, Vision of the Future was right to put an end to the galactic Civil War. It drug on for decades.

Apparently there are Zahn haters here, but I would have preferred the aliens have come from the Unknown Regions. Not immune to the Force or with overwhelming fire power and being subversive. Something like what he's done with the Grisk in his new novels or the Sii-Ruuk in Truce at Bakura. Even a Dark Side Empire in the Unknown Region. The Vong were so Alien and took so long to flesh out. Still. Those later books. Enemy Lines and Force Heretic.
Pelleon being a badass from a Goddamn tank
This is an interesting criticism about the Yuuzhan Vong that I've never encountered before. What exactly do you mean when you say the books too long to flesh them out? Do you mean their culture or hierarchy took too long to establish, or the explanation for why they were immune to the Force?

Because I was under the impression that their immunity was intended to be the ultimate mystery that NJO was built on as a story arc, the reason for the Jedi to question themselves and for Jacen Solo's journey of self-reflection.

I agree, the Civil War had dragged on for way too long with the Empire vs Republic shit, so the Vong were a nice addition to try and bring an end to that much like the Sii-Ruuk. That and NJO was very well written, but I just personally didn't like the over the top damage. I get why they did it, but I still didn't like it. At least just vongnuke all the dozens of unoriginal Coruscant clones only since those would make the most sense as primary targets and it would remove some of the more uninteresting worlds. Some deaths though were impacting and well done (like Chewbacca's) while others just felt uneeded or forced. Overall, still a better 30 years later story than the Disney saga.
100% legitimate criticism. I personally like how unstoppable and threatening the Vong were characterized, but even I thought the books went a little overboard in plenty of respects. It also threw the logistics into flux, considering they'd be unstoppable in one book and owned like fucking losers another book---yeah, you could argue that unorthodox and out-of-the-box tactics on behalf of people like Kyp Durron and Lando Calarissian can be attributed to those spikes of success, but it would often make the supposed incomprehensible technology and methods of the Vong feel too quickly undermined for the sake of plot convenience.

Out of curiosity, whose death felt unneeded or forced? Chewbacca's almost always the one everyone picks, for some reason, so it'd be real fucking refreshing to hear someone else's.

The only area where we really part ways is Coruscant. That to me felt like one of the moments where the authors were driving home how this conflict wasn't just another throwaway incident like the Black Fleet Crisis or the various other monster-of-the-week Imperial incidents from the Bantam Era. I think the authors were making a profound effort to characterize the Yuuzhan Vong Crusade as the next great war of the galaxy, the next conflict to follow the Clone Wars and the Galactic Civil War. Sure, it was emotionally rattling and bleak to watch Coruscant fall to such a miserable state, but almost Battlestar Galactica level of despair, of "no hope"....I hadn't seen that in Star Wars before, not even at the end of Revenge Of The Sith. The stakes have never been higher. When you have such a massive plunge in morale among the main characters at the sight of their ravaged homeworld, with the streets of Coruscant lined with the impaled, mutilated corpses of innocent civilians, you realize that the characters aren't facing the usual threat of conquest or dictatorship...they're staring their extinction dead in the face, in all of its cold, unrelenting terror. Things like watching Coruscant fall, and the fact that the galaxy's still recovering from it 11 years later, really made the Vong Invasion feel like it had weight and consequence. The fact that the characters are so desperate to prevent something like that happening ever again as late as LOTF is proof of that.

However, I say all of this as someone who's a sucker for misery porn in their storytelling is something I revel in because I feel pushing characters to the fringes of hopelessness makes their ultimate victory so much more satisfying. In fact, I'm enjoying the Berserk-levels of crippling depression in LOTF for the exact same reason. I guess that maybe way so much of the post-Bantam EU resonates with me where it doesn't with so many other people.

Well, that, and because I don't have Karen Traviss and Troy Denning at the top of my shitlist.

So apparently Ray Park (Darth Maul) posted a video of his dick getting sucked on Instagram. Rumor is that he did it as revenge on his wife for cheating on him.
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The only area where we really part ways is Coruscant. That to me felt like one of the moments where the authors were driving home how this conflict wasn't just another throwaway incident like the Black Fleet Crisis or the various other monster-of-the-week Imperial incidents from the Bantam Era.
How so? I said city planets like Coruscant deserved the vongnuke the most and I agree Coruscant and its many city planet clones were the best sacrificial lambs and their destructions and deaths there would make more sense than others, like the many planets/moons in the Yavin system that got needlessly vongnuked despite having little to no technology or prominent "impure non-vong populations", being moderately inhabited at best by simplefolk or primitives even if Luke had a presence on Yavin 4. In fact Coruscant getting vongnuked made more sense than any other planet and the aftermath results in a newborn Coruscant that finally tries to restore its lost vegetation. Anyway I thoroughly enjoyed the chaos over Coruscant.
 
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But its not, because as I've established, the definition of slavery requires unwillingness.
This is a weird point to keep making. Willingness has nothing to do with the definition of slavery.

I blinked and got behind again. Has anyone posted these masterpieces?

(He has SOOOOOO many more on his channel.)
Sounds like it was slapped together in an afternoon using stolen midi files tbh.
 
So the internet is scouring the Ray Park video. If you got it before the pull down, might be worth archiving for the future. As always fellow kiwi's, archive everything.

Kinda wonder if it was a hack on his end. It's basically the end of his career if he posted "revenge porn." It's a quick way to get blacklisted.
 
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Talk about bad timing.
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Also Disney must be off their rocker to be announcing so much shit when they can barely get Kenobi and the not-Katarn shows off the ground.
 
Talk about bad timing.
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Also Disney must be off their rocker to be announcing so much shit when they can barely get Kenobi and the not-Katarn shows off the ground.

So Maul will appear in multiple show, then I guess we will be hearing more Maul whining about Kenobi still, wanting to kill him and getting Kenobi attention.

Sound cool if true but I rather see something else instead of seeing a former Sith who act like a important character in The Clone Wars.
 
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The lightsaber and hand were going to be just fine and floating through space 30 years later. And JJ does not know how gas giants or anything works. This is relevant to TFA's director commentary where JJ says that its not made with scientists in mind even though it doesn't take a fucking rocket scientist to realize when something is dumb as fuck or just defies basic common sense. Hell a not retarded scenario would've been starting off your movie with a hover droid finding it in one of the lower mine stations and then passing it on from hand to hand before being handed to Yellow Yoda.
Not making it with scientists in mind means ignoring the radiation of gas giants in order to have your forest moons and cloud cities.
Making it retarded is not taking into account the existence of gravity on a gas giant in order to have a really boring explanation for a mystery.

The key here is what is gained by ignoring science. The OT got an interesting setting for an espionage mission (Endor) and an interesting setting for a betrayal and grand reveal (Cloud City). What did JJ get by ignoring gravity? He was able to give a boring and low-effort explanation of the mystery.
 
This is an interesting criticism about the Yuuzhan Vong that I've never encountered before. What exactly do you mean when you say the books too long to flesh them out? Do you mean their culture or hierarchy took too long to establish, or the explanation for why they were immune to the Force?

Because I was under the impression that their immunity was intended to be the ultimate mystery that NJO was built on as a story arc, the reason for the Jedi to question themselves and for Jacen Solo's journey of self-reflection.

More they took to long to give us good Vong. If the first good Vong/human interaction was in Edge of victory, that book 7 of 19. That was the first time they were more than murder/pain monsters to me and showed something resembling a society. From there we don't meet there Emperor, or discover their underlying motives until the teens.
 
How so? I said city planets like Coruscant deserved the vongnuke the most and I agree Coruscant and its many city planet clones were the best sacrificial lambs and their destructions and deaths there would make more sense than others,
Oh, whoops, I must've missed that, never mind.

That's what I get for browsing this thread at an ungodly hour.

like the many planets/moons in the Yavin system that got needlessly vongnuked despite having little to no technology or prominent "impure non-vong populations", being moderately inhabited at best by simplefolk or primitives even if Luke had a presence on Yavin 4. In fact Coruscant getting vongnuked made more sense than any other planet and the aftermath results in a newborn Coruscant that finally tries to restore its lost vegetation. Anyway I thoroughly enjoyed the chaos over Coruscant.
Well, remember that the destruction of Yavin 4 (and the Jedi Praxeum) takes place after Balance Point, in which Tsavong Lah is properly introduced and not only suffers a slight from Jacen Solo, but also decrees the Jedi to be false prophets and the idealogical enemies of the Yuuzhan Vong, something that was set up as early as Agents of Chaos with High Priest Harrar's inquiries on what the Jedi were. Following all of this, the Shaper Caste are essentially commissioned to got to Yavin 4 to pluck a few "Jeedai children" and raze the infidel's place of worship to the ground, using the Jedi captives to experiment on and find the genetic source for their Force Powers.

Now, as to why they spend the time and resources decimating the rest of Yavin and its moons, I actually don't know. I'd say maybe because they were in the same area, but that still wouldn't be justifiable from a tactical perspective.

There are other planets like Fondor and Duro that are decimated just to make the Vong feel more unstoppable...which again, is undermined by the fact that the New Republic starts defeating them in an inexplicably easy fashion, which fucks with the consistency and logistics of the war.

More they took to long to give us good Vong. If the first good Vong/human interaction was in Edge of victory, that book 7 of 19. That was the first time they were more than murder/pain monsters to me and showed something resembling a society. From there we don't meet there Emperor, or discover their underlying motives until the teens.
I will agree that the first third of NJO really drags ass, mostly due to Del Rey's stupid editorial decree of splitting books in two just to make the series longer, but I don't know if I agree that the underlying motives of the Vong are introduced way later. Exchanges like those between Senator Elegos and Shadao Shai, as well as those between High Priest Harrar and his human prisoners, really show the Vong's contempt for the GFFA way of life. Their motive for the war is stated pretty openly, to save the galaxy from the degradation inflicted on it by people who have forgotten the true way--the Gods' way--to live. It elevates even higher when Tsavong Lah (who's introduced properly in Balance Point), recognizes the spiritual threat the Jedi pose as a rival, abominable religion, one the Vong find disgusting for imprinting false truths on the galaxy's population. So we definitely know the Vong's motives six books in...which, I agree, is still too long, thanks to Dark Tide and Agents of Chaos being split into two books when they really didn't need to be.

I also think the authors deciding to wait till Edge of Victory to portray Vong Society as multi-layered and consisting of good people was intentional. The first few books are supposed to instill the Vong as merciless and irredeemable--the same way the Empire is portrayed in the films, but even moreso--with them having been responsible for a wealth of tragedies and personal losses to the heroes. Then Edge of Victory comes along and surprises us by showing that this nightmare race from another galaxy actually has good people in its ranks, and that even turns that into a major sub-plot that's instrumental to the Vong's downfall. For something as binary and simplistic as Star Wars, having characters like Nen Yim and Harrar see through the lies of their own religion and end up helping the heroes was a major deal, one that I'm certain the authors didn't want to tack on in a gimmicky fashion and opted to flesh out over several books. I don't think it would've held the same nuance or meaning if the authors had rushed it, and shown us too many "good" Vong too early.

I also don't think meeting Supreme Overlord Shimmra until Edge of Victory was a problem...not when the Enforcer, Darth Vader-equivalent Tsavong Lah is positioned as the prime tactical threat against the Jedi/New Republic until that point. He was more than threatening and cunning enough, and was an absolute bitch to put down as an obstacle to the heroes.

He's basically the Vong equivalent of everything Grievous is meant to be, in the hands of the right writer.
 
Talk about bad timing.
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Also Disney must be off their rocker to be announcing so much shit when they can barely get Kenobi and the not-Katarn shows off the ground.
HAHAHAHA Kennedy and Iger can't think of anything else to do to pretend they're not dying! They're dead set on just plain announcing shit since they don't have the money (or even competence) to release any of the fucking products that already have stuff ready for it.

They are screamingly desperate to trick the investors. This is like the second time this week they're screaming through owned companies that this totally isn't vaporware to buoy stocks and pretend they're doing shit rather than bitching at each other and failing to do anything with the franchises they have. Hope this bites them in the ass since Ray is getting excoriated for revenge porn. Have fun with this retarded announcement Kennedy.
 
HAHAHAHA Kennedy and Iger can't think of anything else to do to pretend they're not dying! They're dead set on just plain announcing shit since they don't have the money (or even competence) to release any of the fucking products that already have stuff ready for it.

They are screamingly desperate to trick the investors. This is like the second time this week they're screaming through owned companies that this totally isn't vaporware to buoy stocks and pretend they're doing shit rather than bitching at each other and failing to do anything with the franchises they have. Hope this bites them in the ass since Ray is getting excoriated for revenge porn. Have fun with this retarded announcement Kennedy.

Yep, but it won't. Disneys getting a bail out and while I believe Kennedy and Iger could get the blame, they'll just get a gold parachute.

I will agree that the first third of NJO really drags ass, mostly due to Del Rey's stupid editorial decree of splitting books in two just to make the series longer, but I don't know if I agree that the underlying motives of the Vong are introduced way later. Exchanges like those between Senator Elegos and Shadao Shai, as well as those between High Priest Harrar and his human prisoners, really show the Vong's contempt for the GFFA way of life. Their motive for the war is stated pretty openly, to save the galaxy from the degradation inflicted on it by people who have forgotten the true way--the Gods' way--to live. It elevates even higher when Tsavong Lah (who's introduced properly in Balance Point), recognizes the spiritual threat the Jedi pose as a rival, abominable religion, one the Vong find disgusting for imprinting false truths on the galaxy's population. So we definitely know the Vong's motives six books in...which, I agree, is still too long, thanks to Dark Tide and Agents of Chaos being split into two books when they really didn't need to be.

I also think the authors deciding to wait till Edge of Victory to portray Vong Society as multi-layered and consisting of good people was intentional. The first few books are supposed to instill the Vong as merciless and irredeemable--the same way the Empire is portrayed in the films, but even moreso--with them having been responsible for a wealth of tragedies and personal losses to the heroes. Then Edge of Victory comes along and surprises us by showing that this nightmare race from another galaxy actually has good people in its ranks, and that even turns that into a major sub-plot that's instrumental to the Vong's downfall. For something as binary and simplistic as Star Wars, having characters like Nen Yim and Harrar see through the lies of their own religion and end up helping the heroes was a major deal, one that I'm certain the authors didn't want to tack on in a gimmicky fashion and opted to flesh out over several books. I don't think it would've held the same nuance or meaning if the authors had rushed it, and shown us too many "good" Vong too early.

I also don't think meeting Supreme Overlord Shimmra until Edge of Victory was a problem...not when the Enforcer, Darth Vader-equivalent Tsavong Lah is positioned as the prime tactical threat against the Jedi/New Republic until that point. He was more than threatening and cunning enough, and was an absolute bitch to put down as an obstacle to the heroes.

He's basically the Vong equivalent of everything Grievous is meant to be, in the hands of the right writer.

It probably helped sales. I liked Stackpole's attempt to make them more militarily coherent, but then they nuke Ithor anyway.

I don't agree, some of that is just a natural difference in opinion. I don't like the immunity to the force/outside the galaxy thing. I thought it was distracting to me personally.

As for individual Vong? I found Tsavong Lah obnoxious with a handful of exceptions that happened post Star by Star. Yim and Harrar didn't appeal either. Nom Anor was always interesting, but they didn't give him the chance to really shine until later. I liked what they did with him in the end.

I guess I view the EU differently then the movies. The movies may have been black and white, but I liked the grey the EU introduced. I didn't see the Vong as sympathetic or interesting thru the whole thing. They were obnoxious invaders who committed genocide on the regular. Palpatine could have come back and super weaponed them all to hell and I would have been fine with that outcome.
 
Talk about bad timing.
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Also Disney must be off their rocker to be announcing so much shit when they can barely get Kenobi and the not-Katarn shows off the ground.
Does anybody have a list of shit that's been announced but never materialized? What's the plan here? Announce so much shit that when the shit you previously announced didn't get made anyone can forget because you're hoping that announcing the "Totally happening Qui-Gon Disney+ series!!!!11" is going to get the soypods into a tizzy that it'll Men in Black the previous announcements?

Are all these announcements being approved by Disney? Do they just have mountains of cash floating around after Corona fucked them into billions in debt? I mean I'll try to make the list:

1. Boba Fett: Never happened. It turned into the Mandalorian to be fair.
2. Rian's trilogy: haven't heard a peep about it even though Rian keeps telling us it's happening.
3. Obi-Wan movie/show/whatever the fuck it is now: pretty much cancelled
4. D&Ds trilogy: buried
5. High Republic: Not a word since the cringetastic trailer
6. That obnoxious lesbian scientist chick whose name I can't remember show: I don't know
 
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