Star Wars Griefing Thread (SPOILERS) - Safety off

But of course, I have to throw the blame on the OT purists and the Red Letter Media crowd, both of which kept pushing for Lucas to quit, and who even celebrated EPVII's release and the Disney buy-out with open arms and tears of joy. They've only recently turned against Disney when the very same thing they asked for turned out to be worse than what Lucas did, and they don't want to admit that they had a hand in destroying the Star Wars franchise.

From the sound of it, everyone made the same mistake: thinking that Disney could take Star Wars and turn it into the MCU, which was and still is the gold standard of how to take a sprawling, complex, often-contradictory canon and adapt it to the big screen. RLM made it, Lucas made it, hell, I certainly made it when I heard about the sale. The idea that Disney could fail this hard on a project this straightforward wasn't on anyone's list of serious possibilities. Why would it have been? Hell, even Disney didn't know they were going to make a dog's breakfast of sci-fi's golden goose, they wouldn't have bought it if they had.

But of course, everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face hire a box-wine-swilling catlady to head their boys' adventure franchise. Lucas had outgrown any creative control and needed to go, but Disney did not assert control over Kennedy as they should have. So instead of a creative with protection from editors producing high-budget, technically competent iterations of The Room, you have an uncreative corporate diversity higher producing high-budget, technically competent iterations of Waterworld.
 
From the sound of it, everyone made the same mistake: thinking that Disney could take Star Wars and turn it into the MCU,

Not entirely true. Myself and a bunch of people I know, we all said at the time that news of the sale came out that Disney was going to skullfuck Star Wars into the ground with a bunch of progressively dumber movies, we just didn't think it would be so soon or as bad because Rogue One was actually decent despite having a bunch of flaws.

We knew it was going to be terrible when they announced the dissolution of the Expanded Universe though, something that Lucas himself did actually embrace.
 
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Is this supposed to be some sort of feared villain or enemy? It looks like a teen awestruck at what he's holding -- as if he's discovered some long lost artifact at an archaeological dig. Disney should have drawn inspiration from the old cartoon series MASK and modeled their Mohawk-sporting villain after Bruno "Mad Dog" Sheppard:

mask-bruno.jpg
Doesn't Bruno look more like the kind of person who'd love to brandish a lightsaber against his enemies? He certainly looks tougher and more fearsome.

It looks like a goddamn sticker stuck on top of a matte painting. You have Disney money, how do you fuck it up this badly?
This looks worse than someone's first attempt at photo shopping without any sort of instruction, teaching, or training.

Sadly, it's not surprising, though. Even though the 3D CGI we got with Filoni's Clone Wars looked impressive and improved in successive seasons, Disney instead chose to take backwards steps with the 2D animation used in both Rebels and Resistance. Sure, the former's animation is supposed to be a nod to McQuarrie artwork, but it seems more like a cheap imitation than a faithful replication of the original.

But that reinforces another point: Disney has embraced the "quantity over quality' approach when it comes to Star Wars. there was a reason Lucas spaced his films approximately 3 years apart (give or take) from each other -- trying to make a quality film and tell a cohesive story across multiple films takes time. Nothing good comes from a rush job, as we've seen with Disney's mindset that new SW content, especially the ST films, should be released at relatively-set regular intervals.
 
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From the sound of it, everyone made the same mistake: thinking that Disney could take Star Wars and turn it into the MCU, which was and still is the gold standard of how to take a sprawling, complex, often-contradictory canon and adapt it to the big screen. RLM made it, Lucas made it, hell, I certainly made it when I heard about the sale. The idea that Disney could fail this hard on a project this straightforward wasn't on anyone's list of serious possibilities. Why would it have been? Hell, even Disney didn't know they were going to make a dog's breakfast of sci-fi's golden goose, they wouldn't have bought it if they had.

But of course, everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face hire a box-wine-swilling catlady to head their boys' adventure franchise. Lucas had outgrown any creative control and needed to go, but Disney did not assert control over Kennedy as they should have. So instead of a creative with protection from editors producing high-budget, technically competent iterations of The Room, you have an uncreative corporate diversity higher producing high-budget, technically competent iterations of Waterworld.

They should have drawn up their plans for a new trilogy even before the sale went final. I remember when Marvel almost bought DC, and during the negotiations, some Marvel artists even began sketching up mock covers for Marvel's first Superman issue. They actually were honestly psyched at the idea they might own DC's comic publishing side, and the enthusiasm showed. Disney, on the other hand, just treated Star Wars as another property they can milk and use as a soapbox for liberal preaching. The only thing worse than a fool with a dumb plan is a fool without one.

Not entirely true. Myself and a bunch of people I know, we all said at the time that news of the sale came out that Disney was going to skullfuck Star Wars into the ground with a bunch of progressively dumber movies, we just didn't think it would be so soon or as bad because Rogue One was actually decent despite having a bunch of flaws.

We knew it was going to be terrible when they announced the dissolution of the Expanded Universe though, something that Lucas himself did actually embrace.

Well, you guys might be Force-sensitive to see that coming. Even I thought Disney would actually turn things fine or just make Expanded Universe movies until the heat death of the universe or something. To me, Rogue One is somewhat good, although it's not a good substitute for Dark Forces, it stands up as a work of its own.

Lucas embraced the EU in more ways than one. Sure, there was that official statement where he thought they were parallel universes, but to his own fans, he said this:

"It wasn't long after I began writing Star Wars that I realized the story was more than a single film could hold. As the saga of the Skywalkers and Jedi Knights unfolded, I began to see it as a tale that could take nine films to tell-three trilogies-and I realized, in making my way through the back story and after story, that I was really setting out to write the middle story. After Star Wars was released, it became apparent that my story-however many films it took to tell-was only one of thousands that could be told about the characters who inhabit its galaxy. But these were not stories that I was destined to tell. Instead they would spring from the imagination of other writers, inspired by the glimpse of a galaxy that Star Wars provided. Today, it is an amazing, if unexpected legacy of Star Wars that so many gifted writers are contributing new stories to the Saga. This legacy began with Splinter of the Mind's Eye, published less than a year after the release of Star Wars. Written by Alan Dean Foster, a well-known and talented science-fiction author, Splinter was promoted as a further adventure of Luke Skywalker. It hit the bookstores just as I was preparing my own further adventure of Luke in the form of a script entitled The Empire Strikes Back.”
-George Lucas, intro to “Splinter of the Mind’s Eye”

So basically, Lucas, in his own words to his own fans, and not musing in a private interview, talked about how the Expanded Universe characters were in the same galaxy and saga that the movies were. That whole "alternate universe" shit wasn't referring to the actual universe of Star Wars, but more along the lines of how they were made and in a more metaphorical sense instead of a more literal sense. This makes sense, considering that the Lucasarts' hired canon-keeper during Lucas' tenure, Leland Chee, who managed the canon of Star Wars, had most of the Expanded Universe in C-Canon, which is considered canon unless a specific work got booted out. From the mouth of the man himself, Lucas sees the stories of the Expanded Universe as taking place in the same saga, in the same galaxy, as his movies were. Metaphorically, they were separate, because he did his own thing, but in a literal sense, they all belonged in the same Star Wars universe that everyone knew and loved. And when Lucas' own employees like Leland Chee said that most of the Expanded Universe is in the canon, it's in the fucking canon. That's why Disney had to de-canonize them in the first place, because an official member of Lucasarts, as well as statements of Lucas himself, painted the Expanded Universe as canon, and they needed to reverse that.

The Prequels are still canon, right? Well, that just makes things even more of a mess, because the Prequels were shot with the intention that the Expanded Universe was canon. We had Palpatine's battle meditation disrupting the Jedi's powers, we had Windu's Vapaad saving him in a fight against Palpatine while the other Jedi got killed like scrubs, we had Anakin's scar on his face, a parting gift from Assajj Ventress, we had the Republic capital be Coruscant and the Jedi have a Council, just like in the Thrawn novels and Tales of the Jedi books. We had lightsaber-proof metals just like with the Expanded Universe. We had Palpatine seeking immortality, a quest he will have completed before the Dark Empire saga where they show that he was immortal. The movies themselves had to conform to the Expanded Universe, not the other way around. Which goes to show that this whole "Expanded Universe isn't canon" platform is absolute bullshit. Especially when the Prequels themselves made so many winks and nods to the books, comics, and games that made up the general Expanded Universe. You needed to know the Expanded Universe to make sense of everything in the Prequels. Why is Palpatine seeking immortality in the middle of a galactic takeover? Why are there metals that can withstand lightsaber blows? Why can't the Jedi sense Palpatine? Any idiot reading the books or knowing a damn thing about the Expanded Universe can answer these questions rather easily.

Heck, Lucas even shaped the EU with stories like Dark Empire and Force Unleashed. He changed Dark Empire from a story about a Vader impostor using superweapons to scare people to the Emperor respawning like some angry nerd who keeps dying on the NES version of Ninja Gaiden. He made The Force Unleashed as his official bridge between the Prequels and the Originals. It always makes me laugh when the anti-EU Disney fanboys use those two examples as to why the EU is overblown and that its stories don't respect Lucas' wishes, when Lucas literally approved of Dragonball Z-style respawning and fighting, with the Emperor coming back multiple times and with Force-users having powers that can shanghai Star Destroyers from the sky, annihilate armies with blasts of Force energy, or having whole armadas of warships get decimated by storms of dark energies. Quite literally, Lucas didn't try to stem the tide of the EU stories becoming anime-style crazy fragfests, he DROVE the series to that direction.
 
Well, you guys might be Force-sensitive to see that coming. Even I thought Disney would actually turn things fine or just make Expanded Universe movies until the heat death of the universe or something.

I don't see how? Even in 2012, Disney was known for piledriving franchises into the ground via endless milking of them. You'd have to be blind or too young to know better to not have seen it coming.
 
I don't see how? Even in 2012, Disney was known for piledriving franchises into the ground via endless milking of them. You'd have to be blind or too young to know better to not have seen it coming.
Power Rangers is so far the only franchise that has been able to find a decent life away from Disney. Sadly, I don't think SW will.
 
This. I saw TFA on release, was utterly revolted (and for the first time, I walked away from something Star Wars-related with absolutely no positive aspects to latch onto), and knew right then that I'd never be invested in this new character and story, so I dropped out of the trilogy immediately to get into the Expanded Universe instead.

Five years later, I'm like forty books and comics into the EU, I can barely remember TFA after having only seen it once, and I still haven't seen TLJ and TROS. It feels great, and my passion for the SW universe has actually grown stronger because of that decision.
Which book are you on now?
 
Who would I choose to run Star Wars?

Sans Lucas, it would be a committee of Expanded Universe writers along with some of the new talent. Jon Favreau, Dave Filoni, Drew Karpyshyn, Timothy Zahn, James Luceno, Kevin J. Anderson, Tom Veitch, and Haden Blackman. Throw in Chris Avellone (the KOTOR 2 guy) for good measure. They all have equal voting powers and they have to vote together to approve an idea. With 9 of them in there, at least there's an odd number for breaking up ties in voting.
 
The question of whether or not Lucas approved of the EU or considered it canon is something that's hotly contested throughout many Star Wars platforms these days, often as a means of emboldening or (in most cases) diminishing its importance in comparison to Disney's Sequels. There are plenty of examples of George expressing his support and distance towards the EU, but ultimately? The question is pointless and insignificant...because Lucas is not the arbiter of what makes for good Star Wars canon.

I respect Lucas tremendously as one of my heroes, but he isn't always right...no creator is. Plenty of people outside of a franchise's original creator can contribute ideas to said universe that are as good, or even better than what the creator intends. Gene Roddenberry is a prime example of this: no one will contest his contributions to Star Trek (at least, anyone who knows what they're talking about), but he wasn't always right about what made for good Star Trek stories. He was ardently against the nautical undertones, revenge themes, and naval characterization of Star Fleet in movies like Wrath Of Khan and The Undiscovered Country, and yet those are two of the best films in the series. Most of the 90's Star Trek was fleshed out and expanded by the likes of people other than Roddenberry, such as Brannon Braga, Rick Berman, Ron D. Moore and others...sure, Gene supervised the first few years of TNG, but the later seasons? First Contact? DS9 and Voyager? That was all the new writers, often going to dark and morally grey places that Roddenberry would've likely opposed (DS9 especially). And yet that period enabled some of the best Trek storytelling in franchise history, sending it to dizzying heights that the franchise has yet to reach again.

Star Wars is no different. The EU went into plenty of narrative directions, the scope and nuance of which matched or even surpassed that of Lucas' own films. And despite having the final say on characters and story, his ideas weren't always the best by virtue of him being the creator (his intentions with Grievous and the EU's depictions of Grievous being the landmark example). Lucas was and still is the creator, and the OT is the foundation of all things Star Wars...but his vision isn't always the definitive stamp for quality or fully-realized story potential.

Ultimately, it is best for large universes like this to draw ideas from a multitude of creators who can bounce ideas off of each other, challenge each other, and pool their efforts into the best product possible. The mentality of one sole creator who can do no wrong and is the definitive authority on what makes for quality storytelling is how you get autistic fanboy cults like the FiloniFags.

And Lord knows we don't need any more of that.

Which book are you on now?
Legacy Of The Force: Tempest. I usually chew through EU books rather quickly, but I'm taking my time in reading and posting initial thoughts on this particular series because of how unrelentingly bleak and emotionally draining it is. There are very few times in fiction where I've encountered a story that so effectively destroys all hope for its characters, and revels in their suffering quite like this story arc. It's tremendously effective in its emotional goals, and I have to applaud the writing team for their efforts. That said, I am looking forward to something more optimistic after this, which I'm told I'll receive in the form of the Legacy comics, the alleged pulpy future setting of the Star Wars universe.

Once I've read to the chronological end of the timeline, I'll be starting over and combing through all of the pre-OT story lines that I skipped to get my post-ROTJ fix in the wake of Disney's Sequel Travesty. Dawn of the Jedi, Tales of the Jedi, all the SWTOR books, the Darth Bane and Plagueis stuff, the Clone Wars Multimedia Project, everything.

I'll be occupied for a good while with all the stories I have to get to...I'll come to the eventual end of my EU journey at some point, but I'm actually content knowing that. I'd rather franchises I like have a definitive beginning, middle and end with no further entries, as oppose to watching it get raped in every hole by exploitative new entries made in the service of corporate interest.
 
I’m rewatching the Plinkett review of The Last Jedi, and Christ is Holdo an unlikeable character. There’s this once scene where she’s telling of Poe just before the mutiny and she does this small head juke thing at him that’s essentially “Yeah, question me again, see what happens”, but we’re expected to side with her by the end of it and say that Poe was in the wrong the whole time.
At 00:58
Fuck off with that shit.
 
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I'm pretty sure the only people who liked Holdo were radfems and open mouth soyboys. There is nothing about her character that made any military sense. Especially love the undermining morale and discipline by not even bothering to wear a uniform, guess that's just for plebs.
 
The question of whether or not Lucas approved of the EU or considered it canon is something that's hotly contested throughout many Star Wars platforms these days, often as a means of emboldening or (in most cases) diminishing its importance in comparison to Disney's Sequels. There are plenty of examples of George expressing his support and distance towards the EU, but ultimately? The question is pointless and insignificant...because Lucas is not the arbiter of what makes for good Star Wars canon.

I respect Lucas tremendously as one of my heroes, but he isn't always right...no creator is. Plenty of people outside of a franchise's original creator can contribute ideas to said universe that are as good, or even better than what the creator intends. Gene Roddenberry is a prime example of this: no one will contest his contributions to Star Trek (at least, anyone who knows what they're talking about), but he wasn't always right about what made for good Star Trek stories. He was ardently against the nautical undertones, revenge themes, and naval characterization of Star Fleet in movies like Wrath Of Khan and The Undiscovered Country, and yet those are two of the best films in the series. Most of the 90's Star Trek was fleshed out and expanded by the likes of people other than Roddenberry, such as Brannon Braga, Rick Berman, Ron D. Moore and others...sure, Gene supervised the first few years of TNG, but the later seasons? First Contact? DS9 and Voyager? That was all the new writers, often going to dark and morally grey places that Roddenberry would've likely opposed (DS9 especially). And yet that period enabled some of the best Trek storytelling in franchise history, sending it to dizzying heights that the franchise has yet to reach again.

Star Wars is no different. The EU went into plenty of narrative directions, the scope and nuance of which matched or even surpassed that of Lucas' own films. And despite having the final say on characters and story, his ideas weren't always the best by virtue of him being the creator (his intentions with Grievous and the EU's depictions of Grievous being the landmark example). Lucas was and still is the creator, and the OT is the foundation of all things Star Wars...but his vision isn't always the definitive stamp for quality or fully-realized story potential.

Ultimately, it is best for large universes like this to draw ideas from a multitude of creators who can bounce ideas off of each other, challenge each other, and pool their efforts into the best product possible. The mentality of one sole creator who can do no wrong and is the definitive authority on what makes for quality storytelling is how you get autistic fanboy cults like the FiloniFags.

And Lord knows we don't need any more of that.


Legacy Of The Force: Tempest. I usually chew through EU books rather quickly, but I'm taking my time in reading and posting initial thoughts on this particular series because of how unrelentingly bleak and emotionally draining it is. There are very few times in fiction where I've encountered a story that so effectively destroys all hope for its characters, and revels in their suffering quite like this story arc. It's tremendously effective in its emotional goals, and I have to applaud the writing team for their efforts. That said, I am looking forward to something more optimistic after this, which I'm told I'll receive in the form of the Legacy comics, the alleged pulpy future setting of the Star Wars universe.

Once I've read to the chronological end of the timeline, I'll be starting over and combing through all of the pre-OT story lines that I skipped to get my post-ROTJ fix in the wake of Disney's Sequel Travesty. Dawn of the Jedi, Tales of the Jedi, all the SWTOR books, the Darth Bane and Plagueis stuff, the Clone Wars Multimedia Project, everything.

I'll be occupied for a good while with all the stories I have to get to...I'll come to the eventual end of my EU journey at some point, but I'm actually content knowing that. I'd rather franchises I like have a definitive beginning, middle and end with no further entries, as oppose to watching it get raped in every hole by exploitative new entries made in the service of corporate interest.

I've already cited Lucas as having approved of the SW EU in a previous quote. Again, the man did approve of the EU and that whole "parallel universes" thing he said was more on production, not actual parallel universes. That, and he was responsible for the creation and direction of Dark Empire and the Force Unleashed, which means Lucas also had his contributions to the Expanded Universe, and they turned out to be the kind of contributions that can give Warhammer 40K a run for its money.

I've been replaying the original Star Wars: Battlefront and I found how quickly a game could go south on Bespin: Platforms if you let the enemy troops seize the platforms behind your lines. Reversing the damage and refocusing on the offensive push feels like juggling.
Don't get me wrong, I love the map (it's one of the few that allows you to kill the enemy heroes).
I just find it a bit difficult when reinforcements are spent and there are 50 reserves still in the enemy reinforcements.
It becomes a nasty slug fest.

That map greatly favors the Rebels/Confederacy over the Empire/Republic. The Confederates have Droidekas that can let them win up-front firefights, the Rebels have stronger starfighters which means they can mop the floor with the TIEs and then capture your command posts from behind. When playing as the Confederacy/Rebellion, I barely had to try, whereas playing as the Republic/Empire, that map is a nightmare, and you'll have to make a mad dash not only to capture the central enemy command post, but also their back platforms as well.
 
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Especially love the undermining morale and discipline by not even bothering to wear a uniform, guess that's just for plebs.
Actually - yes, space princesses should not have uniforms. Minor Light-side characters should be as distinctive as possible, to contrast with samey imperial uniforms and stormtrooper gear. The war setting already restricts the choice of combat equipment for pilots and such; it makes sense to just put a space princess admiral (who definitely earned her position by merit and is known and loved by her subordinates) in a dress and not comment on it further. Holograms are everywhere in the setting and everyone knows what she looks like.

Plus, there's historical precedent in that people with highest military ranks in their respective countries (think World or pan-European wars) had "uniforms" designed to their tastes.

But no, they had to make her a deliberate morale-undermining cunt. I'm so quirkaaaaayyy squeeeeee!
 
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I’m rewatching the Plinkett review of The Last Jedi, and Christ is Holdo an unlikeable character. There’s this once scene where she’s telling of Poe just before the mutiny and she does this small head juke thing at him that’s essentially “Yeah, question me again, see what happens”, but we’re expected to side with her by the end of it and say that Poe was in the wrong the whole time.
At 00:58
Fuck off with that shit.
That was such a trash character I sometimes wonder if it was intentional to see how far they could go. Even a trash character like Rose Tico, could have worked as a character type if done properly, but holdo is just irredeemable and in no way fits in with the established Star Wars universe. The costume, the hair, the stupid crown and jewelry all of it is completely offensive to our sensibilities. Who did the costume design for these trash films? They surely are no John Mollo, its clear they had no experience with military attire and equipment. (just like everyone else involved with these films, they have no knowledgebase or experience from which to draw except social media on their smart phones).
 
Laura Dern must have cringed very hard to have such a garbage character to act in.

It's a far cry from her Jurassic Park character who, yeah, was a scientist, but also was intensly interested in convincing her professional colleague and paramour to knock her up.

That was such a trash character I sometimes wonder if it was intentional to see how far they could go.

She existed to make Poe (the MAN) look bad. As usual with radfem nonsense, it's so ridiculously unrealistic and devoid of logic that everyone but them sees it as a joke, or -at best - confusing.
 
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