Star Wars Griefing Thread (SPOILERS) - Safety off

[LORD IMPERATOR]

Reminder she was sent to a premier school of acting and had hundreds of thousands of dollars put into her by her parents while Boyega literally went to the equivalent of a day school to learn to act.

Silver spooned and she still couldn't buy a role until Kennedy saw herself in her like she does with all random bland dark haired women she obsesses over.

Oh yeah, quite a few studios are trying to hide how their actors basically have to find a job since the small amount of VA roles aren't filling the quota. Disney is likely one of them given their tendency to lie about their status.

Daisy Ridley's parents might as well have thrown all that money into a furnace. She was no better than Boyega in acting for EPVII.

At least for my waifus, I tend to pick and choose different colors of hair now and then. (Blonde, black, blue, brown, green, red, depends on my mood.)

Given the rise of voice acting in lieu of moviemaking, I'm surprised Daisy hasn't snagged a VA role in some Disney cartoon. Heck, at least let her play Rey in some SW cartoon set during or after the ST.

 

[Kane Lives]

We knew this. Ian McDiarmid was suprised that they called him up to do RoS.

If nothing else, it was good seeing the best PT character in the flesh one last time. Enjoy the paycheck, based Sheev. You earned it.

 

[ZMOT]

Rey Kenobi is trending on Twitter.
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Literally nothing was planned out, fucking hell.

lel it's not like "she's a kenobi" was one of the loudest fan theories trying to explain her mary sue-ness right after TFA. that "idea" is literally 4 years old by now.

Daisy Ridley's parents might as well have thrown all that money into a furnace. She was no better than Boyega in acting for EPVII.

At least for my waifus, I tend to pick and choose different colors of hair now and then. (Blonde, black, blue, brown, green, red, depends on my mood.)

Given the rise of voice acting in lieu of moviemaking, I'm surprised Daisy hasn't snagged a VA role in some Disney cartoon. Heck, at least let her play Rey in some SW cartoon set during or after the ST.

considering what we know about jarjar and ruin's writing I can't really blame her directly, same way hayden christensen got a lot of shit for his performance for that dialogue lucas shat out. as I said with a better script a lot of her action acting would be outright overlooked, if people even noticed in the first place.

as for VA, while a lot of them are overpaid (thanks to the guild) it probably won't be enough, nor have the glamour lot of people go into acting for. I mean, what's even out there? the rare high-profile disney/dreamworks animation, lot of shitty kids show or anime.
if it's about the craft itself they usually tend to go with theater.

 

[Cyril Sneer]

Spoiler: I'm Telling You For the Last Time (Part Two of THree)

At most, the Mandalorians you'll see in the future are the Death Watch ones while the Ahsoka fans and the TCW fans take over the future of SW. At most, Karen Traviss fans will have to contend with Jedi fans on the one hand idolizing the likes of Ahsoka, Kenobi, and maybe even Kanan Jarrus, while the Mandalorians they'll feature will be Death Watch guys like Bo-Katan or Sabine Wren, both of whom were Clan Vizsla members. There's already talk of bringing Ahsoka to the Mandalorian show, and the Mandos they're going off on are the Death Watch ones from TCW, which the Mandalorian, Din Djarin, was a member of, since they found him as a boy. With the Ahsoka fans being rather strong in the TCW and SW fandom as a whole, it's gonna be a very "Orange" future for Star Wars, if you catch my drift.

As of Rebels, the Death Watch doesn't appear to exist anymore. Post-Clone Wars (during which the Death Watch splintered into pro and anti-Maul factions) they've gone back to siding with their individual clans and fighting against the Empire (as for Bo-Katan, her past affiliation with the Death Watch notwithstanding, she actually belongs to House Kryze).

Additionally, The Mandalorian doesn't fit into Filoni's continuity at all, depicting a nomadic, Traviss-inspired Mandalorian culture that has direct connections to the Mandalorian homeworld and the Clone Wars while somehow having only vague legends of the Jedi and the Force from thousands of years ago, in dire contrast with Filoni's urbanized Jedi collaborators.

Finally, TORTANIC, last I heard, is still online, and wouldn't ya know it, but that game is actually a carefully curated treasure-trove of Travissian Mando minutiae...

Except in many EU works, the Jedi as a whole gave a damn about clones. The few who didn't were either oddballs or were outright traitors. That, and the Republic never enforced the law about slavery-it was just up to each territory to decide.

That doesn't seem to be Padme's impression, and she should know, having devoted her entire life to politics from like the age of eight or thereabouts. XD

Plus, with the Supreme Chancellor getting emergency powers, he has the LEGAL RIGHT to draft people into the Grand Army of the Republic, and he just drafted all the clones into it. Even if the clones were citizens of the Republic, the Republic giving emergency powers to the Chancellor and drafting the clones into the GAR means that they're legally bound to serve in the front lines.

Even if the Jedi went all Rahm Kota and assembled their own militias and refused to use the clones, the clones would still be made to serve...

Even if the Jedi assembled their own militias, they'd still be betraying their ideals and their purpose, according to Lucas.

Anakin can be reckless in his assaults, getting many clones killed. While he does care for them, he's not as conservative with their lives when it comes to other Jedi who would prefer a defensive approach that gets less men killed, a la Obi-Wan.

This is not shown in Lucas's films, where Anakin's recklessness typically takes the form of placing himself in danger, while Obi-Wan's style seems to simply be throwing large numbers of his troops at the enemy as a diversion while he slips through to attack the opposing commander.

Considering that many popular senators like Bail Organa and Padme Amidala were Jedi patsies, if the Jedi Council told them that Palpatine was a Sith Lord and presented the dead bodies of three Jedi masters as proof of his powers...

Bail Organa is so popular that he spends much of his time hanging out with a small group of rogue Palpatine critics who are afraid to discuss their meetings even with their families.

Palpatine consolidating power as Emperor prevented Bail from telling the truth, but if Palpatine was dead and a reputable Senator denounced him as a Sith, well, who will be there to stop him?

It's kind of important to Lucas's story that Palpatine A: survives the end of the Clone Wars; and B: destroys the Jedi Order.

Lucas approved of Dark Empire, which stated that Boba Fett got out of the Sarlacc alive and well. I fail to see how this is a problem, especially when Lucas' favorite comic book portrayed Boba at good health after having escaped the Sarlacc.

Lucas may have found Dark Empire amusing, but while he has independently canonized Boba Fett's escaping the Sarlacc, he has also stated that the books, comics and video games have no bearing on what he considers the real SW universe

Again, that concept art is something Lucas threw away.

But considered as being possible and reasonable according to the internal rules of his fictional universe.

That's not even canon or something Lucas put into the final product, nor was it even shot as a deleted scene, so it is unadmissible as evidence. Lucas himself shot the idea down because Boba was too young, but that doesn't prove anything.

Not at all. It's inarguable evidence that Lucas considers it entirely possible for the Mandalorian(?) to kill a Jedi Master, was considering making it a part of the film and simply left it out for the stated reason that Boba Fett would be too young at the time that ROTS takes place.

Armor will soften the blow, however. Padding, too, which Jango seemed to have.

No amount of padding will protect you from getting concussed under those circumstances. The brain simply isn't designed to be shaken around like that.

Lore-wise, there's nothing a Mando can do when blasted by Force Lightning...

Lore-wise, Fatal Alliance shows a Mandalorian shrugging off Force-lightning thanks to his armor.

...or crushed by Dark Side telekinesis.

Boba Fett disagrees.

What's to say he wouldn't deflect it back at Boba?

The same guy (Lucas) who says Luke is vulnerable to getting shot by a random guard instead of "deflect[ing] it back."

Interestingly, Fett is shown aiming his left gauntlet at Luke, the one that mounts the "Whistling Birds" launcher. If Luke can get tagged by some no-name mook firing a single shot at him with a blaster pistol, he's certainly going to get perforated by a swarm of guided micro-missiles.

Notice how the Dark Jedi remain calm as Fett chickens out and runs. As if he wasn't even a threat to them, despite the fact that they're the kind of Dark Jedi that Luke can easily scrape off his boots.

The comic panel clearly shows them cringing in fright when Fett's rocket hits the Stormtrooper, while screaming impotent threats at him. Then they attempt to save face and reassure themselves that they can deal with him whenever they like, but only because Fett is retreating to his ship and no longer facing them with killing intent (since he generally has no interest in fighting if someone isn't paying him to do it).

And again, the narrator's omniscient, unassailable comment on the whole affair is that there are people out there in the Galaxy, like Boba Fett, whom not even the Dark Side of the Force will give you sufficient power to abuse without unpleasant and potentially fatal consequences (and all of this in "Lucas' favorite comic book," in your words).

Darth Vader was still portrayed by the story as a child-killing, subordinate-choking asshole...

And also a good friend, a devoted son, a loving husband, etc. Really, the only SW film that even comes close to the simplistic kind of morality that you apparently cannot evolve beyond is A New Hope, and everything that that film sets up gets completely turned on its head in the following installment, where it's revealed that Vader is actually Anakin, that Obi-Wan lied, and that everyone has both darkness and light within them (except maybe Palpatine).

I wasn't claiming that Imperial officers had moral authority.

You were giving Imperial officers moral authority to pass judgment over bounty hunters, as you do again below:

It's more a case of "even evil has standards" because most Imperials wouldn't lower themselves to being sellouts and mercenaries since they have loyalty to their nation and are willing to die for it. When fucking Space Nazis have more honor than you, that's when you have no moral high ground against the fucking Jedi.

There may be honorable men in the service of the Empire, but as a bounty hunter dealing in capturing individuals or small groups of fugitives, I can't say that I'd lose any sleep over being disdained by members of an organization responsible for genocide on a planetary level.

For that matter, Piett's complaint that the Imperials "don't need [bounty hunter] scum" is shown by Lucas to be entirely false and hollow, since only the bounty hunter Boba Fett is able to figure out what happened to the Millenium Falcon, while Darth Vader and the Imperial Navy sit around and twiddle their collective thumbs.

No, I'm sure that greed is something that most religions, societies, and even secular philosophies see as evil.

I think your beloved Romans would disagree.

Especially when your leader runs off to kill an innocent woman campaigning for peace BECAUSE HE WAS PAID. If he was paid to kill innocents marked as "undesirables" by someone, and he freely took that contract instead of being forced to, then yes, he bears the brunt of the blame for that evil act.

Here's what the official Attack of the Clones Visual Dictionary has to say:

Rohlan only was with the Mandalorians in the EARLY part of the war. So again, that could have changed drastically, especially since he split off from the other Mandos in the first issue he showed up in.

Actually, Rohlan gets back in touch with the Mandos later on in the series, after Zayne and co. discover that Demagol switched places with him, and after Revan has kicked off his crusade in earnest. At no point does he say, "boy, you Jedi sure have gotten tougher while I was out of it." Quite the opposite, in fact.

Revan seems to agree, as his internal monologue in his eponymous novel states that the "devastating blow" that the Mandalorians were dealt at the Battle of Malachor V came "at a cost nearly impossible to fathom."

So while Mandalorians were capturing Jedi back then when the Order was officially not involved, (and the only ones snooping around are PADAWANS) the orders could have changed the moment Revan officially got recognition from the public and began leading Jedi Knights and Masters in the front.

According to the comics, the Order was never officially involved, and only gave Revan tacit approval for his crusaders under the guise of civilian "Mercy Corps" volunteers (it's mentioned that even the Cathar genocide was not sufficient to convince the High Council to openly support Revan). Also, the Mandalorians would likely have stopped bothering to capture Jedi shortly after Demagol disappeared, since that was his pet project. You're also tying your own arguments in knots by trying to insist that the Mandalorians could only have been capturing Padwans (or, as you put it, "PADAWANS") since you were previously insisting that it should be no big deal for a PADAWAN to kill 20 Mandalorians at a time in which you claim Jedi powers were dramatically weakened in comparison with earlier eras, yet in the KOTOR comics, the Mandalorians seem to have little difficulty in capturing Jedi prisoners (PADAWAN or otherwise) when (you say) Jedi were much more individually powerful.

No, this is not how it works.

Sure it is.

Name me one Jedi Master in Demagol's prison. I'll wait. I have time.

Sith War and Terentatek hunting veteran Jedi Master Cale Berkona.

Here's Canderous telling the story:

LOL

He literally says that the only reason that the Republic won was Revan. Not the Republic's manpower or industrial advantage, not the participation of the Jedi, not the idea that the Republic's cause was just, but merely Revan and only Revan.

Plus, if you're looking at inconsistencies, Karen Traviss' works are nothing but inconsistent with the rest of the SW universe.

You haven't read Traviss's works. If you did, you'd know that the alleged inconsistencies are pretty much entirely the work of her detractors, most of whom apparently haven't read her books either (as opposed to Drew Karpyshyn, John Jackson Miller, Sean Williams, Hall Hood, etc, who all reference her writings on Mandalorians quite closely)

Which explains why you keep playing down video games, comics, and other stories that were canon to Legends when they contradict your rose-tinted view of the Mandos, whereas Tales of the Jedi and other works like KOTOR and TCW (also known as the most popular SW works among the fans) see the Mandos as violent thugs.

You're just putting your own ignorance (or bias, or both) on display again.

• TOTJ: portrays the Mandalorians as being honorable to a fault, and deeply invested in holding firm to their oaths (and according to the KOTOR comics, they destroyed the Borg-like Iskalloni slavers and freed many slaves, immediately prior to the Sith War).

• KOTOR: all but beats the reader over the head with the idea that Mandalorians are, warlike aggressiveness notwithstanding, an honorable and principled people, with Zayne Carrick interacting with many sympathetic Mandalorians (and even Mandalorian sympathizers, like Jedi Master Dorjander Kace) over the course of the comic's run, and in the Revan novel, it's noted that the former Jedi warmaster admires many things about Mandalorian culture (which he has enough knowledge of to trade highly contextual barbs in Mando'a with Canderous's formidable wife, Veela).

• TORtanic: states that the Mandalorians are both "one of the most powerful and influential" but also "one of the most open and accepting" cultures "in the Galaxy," and comprised of families that are "close-knit and remarkably affectionate," within which "both biological and adopted children are raised with equal love" (all of this is sourced directly from Karen Traviss, BTW).

• TCW: goes to great lengths to establish the Mandalorians as being worthy of the audience's sympathies, to the point where Ahsoka actually flips out on Obi-Wan and Anakin for being more concerned with rescuing the Republic's head of state in the middle of the invasion of Coruscant than in intervening in the Mandalorian Civil War, and this carries on into Rebels, where a spunky Mando girl is part of the main cast and her family and the state of Mandalorian culture in general becomes a major plot-point.

What you apparently just can't wrap your head around here is that fighting against the designated protagonists doesn't necessarily make you evil or even a permanent antagonist, as seen with Fenn Rau in Rebels, who kills two of Hera Syndulla's A-Wing pilots and wounds Hera at the behest of the Empire, but later ends up becoming a mentor to Sabine, Rebels' resident Mando character, and an ally against the Empire.

Volume Ten of the KOTOR comics shows Zayne Carrick was able to outfox a Mandalorian force that had Jedi support which was gunning for Dantooine. In the opening of said comic, he was defeating Mandalorians despite holding back so as to not kill. Even though he's the joke of the Jedi Order, he was still able to beat Mandalorians, both mentally, and physically.

LOL

A large part of the KOTOR comic's overarching plot is comprised of Zayne outfoxing everyone, from random Mandalorians to the Republic military to civilian mining outposts, Arkanian corporations, star-spanning criminal organizations, interstellar banks and various members of the Jedi Order, including his former masters from the Taris Conclave. Zayne may kind of suck as a Jedi, but he repeatedly displays a preternatural talent for running scams on people, something which his close friend and frequent collaborator, the Snivvian Marn Hierogryph (who is himself a professional con-artist of no small ability) frequently comments on with great admiration. Actually, come to think of it, by the War arc of KOTOR, Zayne has renounced his Jedi status, and, amusingly enough, actually declares himself to be a Mandalorian at one point.

It's pretty funny that you're picking from War, since it pretty much begins with Zayne's internal monologue stating that the Jedi can't beat the Mandalorians on their own, continues with Zayne outright telling a Republic officer that he doesn't think that "even the Jedi are smart enough" to decide who should live or die (citing the Taris Padawan Massacre), and then dives deep into showing the war from the Mandalorian perspective, with Zayne finding himself surprised that the Mandalorian families* that he interacts with seem happy and content, and former Jedi High Councilor Dorjander Kace arguing that the Mandalorians live a better, more vital way of life than the corrupt and dysfunctional Republic and should supplant it (with guidance from the Jedi, naturally).

Kace eventually falls from grace with the Mandos as a result of his plan to forcibly press the Jedi initiates on Dantooine into service as Mandalorian Jedi, which he gets called out on because that would violate the Mandalorian taboo against separating children from their parents/guardians, but despite surrendering to the Republic, he still persists in defending the Mandos, and is ultimately vindicated, as the EU timeline ends with the Republic consigned to the dustbin of history and the Mandalorians an accepted part of the Galactic community (also, Kace was captured by the Mandalorians during the Sith War, so there goes your contention that the Jedi never lost a fight with the Mandos in that particular dust-up).

*Devaronian females have beards, BTW.

The Hunter can also refuse to join the Mandalorians.

Or not. The developers chose to use the Bounty Hunter class as the avenue by which players could RP as Mandalorians if they so wished, making The Hunter the de facto Mandalorian representative in the game according to the player's preference.

The fact that you're trying to goalpost-shift and No-True-Scotsman your way out of recognition of this simple fact is laughably ridiculous.

Whether or not it's a power fantasy, the Hunter killing Kellian Jarro BEFORE becoming a Mando is still part of the lore. As much a part of the lore as any novel, comic, or TV show. Again, you have a tendency to ignore things in Legends that outright contradicts your arguments.

You have a tendency to see contradictions where there are none. That the player will kill Kellian Jarro before receiving the opportunity to be inducted into the Mandalorian clans has no bearing on the fact that the developers provided the option for a Bounty Hunter PC to kill various Jedi or Sith as a Mandalorian if the player so chooses. It's not even slightly inconsistent with the lore, either. In Karen Traviss's Republic Commando books, none of the three most prominent and badass Mando characters, Kal Skirata, Walon Vau and Mil Gilamar, were born into Mandalorian society. Rather, they were adopted into it at various points in their lives (Skirata as a young orphan, Vau as a young adult, Gilamar as a grown man), and numerous other characters "go Mando" over the course of the series, ranging from Clone Troopers (who, of course, are pretty badass to begin with) to Jedi Padawans to Separatist soldiers to middle-aged cargo pilots.

If Mandalorians took ceremony very seriously, then they would have protected the Hunter when the latter was being targeted for eradication by the Jedi and the Republic, because the Hunter went through a ceremony where Mandalore himself made the Hunter a Mandalorian.

You're picking a fight with the Star Wars: The Old Republic Official Encyclopedia (authored by Hall Hodd and the rest of the TORtanic writing team), which states quite explicitly that Artus Lok "will stop at nothing to maintain the strength and traditions of the Mandalorians."

Instead, the Sith wind up offering the Hunter protection and contracts, because apparently Mandalore was too busy not fighting the Republic and the Jedi seriously to PROTECT HIS PET GRAND CHAMPION.

The Hunter doesn't need protection. He's fully capable of killing anything that the Sith or Jedi throw at him, and it's quite likely that the Mandalore would feel as though assigning a minder to someone so impressively lethal would constitute an deep insult. It's also consistent with Fatal Alliance, where Mandalore becomes aware of the development of a type of highly-intelligent, self-upgrading, self-reproducing droids that threaten to wipe out all life in the entire Galaxy if let loose, and in response he sends a single agent to (successfully) deal with the problem.

That didn't happen anywhere in the game-Clan Lok didn't provide any protection or support when the Hunter was literally getting hunted by the Republic.

It wasn't even named in the game.

That's the problem with the games, youngling: they don't tell the whole story.

The clan of the Mandalore who initiates the player into Mandalorian society is named in the aforementioned Star Wars: The Old Republic Official Encyclopedia.

Imperial Intelligence is mentioned in lore videos outside of the game. Republic special forces showed up in several comics before the game came out.

They are, however, basically limited to the setting of the game itself. They don't have an operational history that stretches from the distant past long before even the Jedi Order was founded all the way to the end of the EU timeline, as the Mandalorians do, nor are they a part of George Lucas's vision of the Galaxy Far, Far Away as the Mandalorians are. You may fap to them all you like, but the Republic Special Forces and intelligence service of the Sith Empire simply have not demonstrated the authenticity, the popular staying power, the in-universe or out-of-universe historical longevity, as the faction that you're trying so desperately to elevate them above.

And the statement stands: these groups have people that have killed Jedi and Sith, making them as dangerous, if not more dangerous, than the average Mandalorian.

The lore says otherwise. Fatal Alliance, for example, presents a pretty unimpressive picture of the Republic's Special Forces troops in comparison with Mandos. An elite, armored SpecForce trooper with a heavily tricked-out rifle (so much so that it's apparently illegal for non-Special Forces to be in possession of on Coruscant) admits to herself that she is "woefully equipped" to confront even a single Mandalorian warrior. The Mandalorian, for his part, barely even registers her as a potential threat.

Considering that the average Jedi is of a far greater quality in terms of ability than the average Mandalorian...

We don't actually have much of a baseline for what the average Jedi or Mandalorian is like, since G-canon tends to focus on extraordinary, rather than ordinary, individuals. Most of the Jedi that get any level of characterization in the Prequels are either members of the High Council (ostensibly the most wise and experienced of their kind), Obi-Wan Kenobi (the Sithslayer) or Anakin Skywalker (potentially the most powerful Force-user to have ever existed), while the one (adult) Mandalorian (if he is, in fact, a Mandalorian from Lucas's perspective) is likewise able to take on and kill Jedi Masters in turn.

This lack of visibility for the "average" Jedi is actually one of the factors that influenced John Jackson Miller when creating Zayne Carrick, a well-meaning but rather hapless young man, who, though he eventually ends up getting a better handle on his abilities, never really manages to excel as a fighter, always coming up short in combative skill in comparison with his Muggle girlfriend Jarael (who is shown beating up a pre-Dark Side Malak in a sparring match, drawing the pensive compliment from the defeated Jedi that the elfin scrapper is "better than [she has] any right to be".

It just shows that again, the Jedi get the best of the best.

On the contrary, it shows that they can't really afford to be picky.

The 1% of the 1%.

Of whom the majority of that 1% are going to be relatively mediocre compared to the heroes of the movies.

The Mandalorian character (or non-Mando Hunter) can only vanquish the Emperor in KOTET with the help of other Force-wielders. Same goes for a Smuggler, a Special Forces Trooper, and an Imperial Intelligence Agent. But in the vanilla game, only the Jedi Knight manages to do that job. That, and the Sith Warrior, but that was more "assisted suicide" than actually vanquishing the guy.

You must get very tired, having to constantly push those goalposts ever further backwards.

First you're all like "At most, the Mandalorian version of the Hunter has a tiny bit of pull among the Mandos and some good PR from the Sith thanks to Darth Tormen," but now, you're like "well, okay, he can be the one responsible for destroying the thousand-year-old life-sucking eldritch abomination, I guess, BUT ONLY IN THE EXPANSION PACKS SO IT DOESN'T REALLY COUNT!!!"

Too funny...

Zym gets easily killed by Braden. Braden gets easily defeated by Orgus Din. There's the proof, it's staring at you in the face.

William of Ockham disagrees with you.

Except again, Revan was already beating the Mandalorians well before Malachor V, which shows that he was a great tactician and commander.

According to Drew Karpyshyn's TORtanic tie-in, Revan, the redeemed Revan thinks, in retrospect, that it was a "ruthless but tactically brilliant decision to sacrifice thousands of [Republic military personnel and Jedi] to achieve victory," which suggests that he was a "great tactician and commander" after the fashion of certain officers of the Imperial Guard...

Malachor V was the Mandos' last gambit. Revan only used the Mass Shadow Generator because he had plenty of Republic and Jedi forces which weren't loyal to him that he needed removed.

Karpyshyn seems to have retconned this in Revan, which states that the Mandalore's last gambit was challenging Revan to single combat, and this seems to have occurred separate of both the Battle of Malachor V and the Mandalorians' eventual surrender.

So? The Republic forces were coming at them with subpar armor and blasters. At that point, each Mando should have taken at least ten guys with him to hell when he died. The problem was, the Jedi out-foxed and defeated them at every turn.

Statements like this simply demonstrate the degree to which you've become disconnected from reality due to your all-encompassing fixation on vidya. Slaughtering hundreds of NPCs without breaking a sweat is not how wars work. For reference, the Soviet Union only had slightly more than a two-to-one numerical advantage over Germany in terms of population in WWII, and they still halted and turned back the initially overwhelming advance of the German Wehrmacht (considered by military historians such as Martin Van Creveld to be one of the best-trained, best-motivated, most effective fighting forces, on a soldier-for-soldier basis, in all human history) through sheer weight of bodies.

Also, since you like Sun Tzu so much, here's his take on the matter of numbers:

"It is the rule in war, if our forces are ten to the enemy's one, to surround him, if five to one, to attack him, if twice as numerous, to divide our army into two. If equally matched, we can offer battle; if slightly inferior in numbers, we can avoid the enemy; if quite unequal in every way, we can flee from him. Hence, though an obstinate fight may be made by a small force, in the end it must be captured by the larger force."

So much for Jedi foxiness.

 

[Cyril Sneer]

Apologies for the double post, but I really just want to get this over and done with and go to sleep.

Spoiler: I'm Telling You For the Last Time (Part Three of Three)

Which is why Jango said "you killed them all." All his men were there, and they all died.

Yeah, all fifteen of them.

Well, maybe ecxept for Silas, but Dooku eventually took care of him.

Which is, again, a point to the Mandalorians, as Dooku himself is impressed by Silas's mental fortitude, which proved impervious to the influence of the Force or interrogation. Only long periods of prolonged torture finally broke him down enough to relate Jango's history to Dooku.

Jango had an army, and they all died. The Protectors rallied around an impostor who pretended to be him.

It's easy to see why you churn out these responses so quickly. If you'd spared even a bare moment to check your claims against the lore, you would know that the Clone Wars-era Protectors were assembled around a Clone Trooper masquerading as Boba Fett, not Jango. But that sort of information isn't delivered to you by NPCs in-game, so of course you would overlook it completely.

T-canon is higher than C-canon in the canon hierarchy during 2008 onwards before the sale to Disney.

T-Canon is effectively an alternate universe since it presents instances of discontinuity with both G-Canon and C-Canon (as the Wired article says, Leland Chee was forced to create "T-Canon" because "the [series] didn't quite fit with the films, and didn't quite fit into the Expanded Universe"):

People = Everyone.

People =/= Everyone (unless your dictionary defines "everyone" as "less than ten percent" of a given group).

People who watched the films AND read the comics and novels were the Fandalorians. People who only watched the films laugh at the Fetts for failing to kill Jedi. Their only Jedi kill onscreen was a surprise attack, they failed to defeat Kenobi, Windu, and Luke. In fact, the EU fans had to tell the casuals that there was more to Boba and Jango than being failures at "killing Jedi 101."

'Fraid not, shortbus. Boba Fett, in and of himself, constituted a major marketing campaign to maintain interest in the SW brand while drumming up interest for the next movie (which was still a few years away when Fett made his debut in the Holiday Special). First, the popularity of the character following the broadcast of the Holiday Special was such that he got a write-up in the official Star Wars fanclub newsletter to drum up further publicity and fan-interest, then the mail-in offer for the Kenner figure proved to be so astonishingly successful that Kenner had to extend the deadline by an additional year (originally May 31, 1979, then March 31, 1980) and even then, supply was not entirely equal to demand. Then Empire Strikes hit theaters, and the character's popularity was only amplified, with young fans like David Rhea not only playing with the action figures but also buying or building their own costumes of the bounty hunter, leading to the foundation of a fan costuming community that Jon Favreau would eventually credit as an inspiration to the development of The Mandalorian as a series.

Then came the comic books, and after them, Return of the Jedi, from which our small but loud and angry minority of Talifans arguably first originated. Despite their objections, however, Boba Fett has continued to be a popular character ever since, appearing in the Droids cartoon, various novels and short stories and a long-running series of solo adventures in Dark Horse comics (as well as being a consistent best-seller for the toy line) before his appearance in Attack of the Clones and the accompanying supplemental material (most importantly, the Republic Commando books) really supercharged interest in the Fetts and Mandalorians in general.

G-canon films have the Jedi openly say that their ability to use the Force has been diminished, which means that yes, works where Jedi are stronger than Prequel Jedi are still canon since the Prequel Jedi openly admit they're weaker in the Force than their predecessors. It's in the movie, pal. You clearly weren't paying attention.

To judge by your arguments here, you didn't even watch the movies in the first place.

In the Prequels, the Jedi are not concerned by their ability to use the Force in a physical, combative manner. What they're worried about is that their ability to sense the Will of the Force and to divine the shape of the future has diminished. As Yoda says, "the Dark Side clouds everything" with the effect that it's become "impossible to see" the future, not to telekinetically hurl large objects around. When Mace mentions that their ability to use the Force has diminished, Yoda argues that "if informed, the senate is, multiply our enemies will." Diminished prophetic insight is something that you might have a reasonable chance of concealing from unfriendly parties. Losing the ability to wrench starships out of orbit is not.

Not really. I kinda like Canderous because he GUTS Dark Jedi and other Force Users face-to-face with blades despite being a muggle.

LOL no. You like him because he simps to Revan and/or the Exile (i.e. you, the player).

I already told you I had a healthy respect for the Fetts as villains.

And you've belied that claim repeatedly throughout this exchange.

Again, you know little about me and what I'm a fan of.

Believe me, you've provided more than enough evidence for the purposes of this discussion.

There's nothing to suggest that Beskar wasn't used in the old eras as it was later on. Heck, Freedon Nadd's tomb was protected by Beskar, and the KOTOR comics had lightsabers being deflected by Beskar armor.

The KOTOR comics had lightsabers being deflected by Mandalorian armor, with no statement as to whether the armor in question was Mandalorian Iron, Durasteel, Duraplast, or some other composition.

Here's the statement of the official TORtanic encyclopedia on the matter:

"...perhaps the most famous aspect of Mandalorian armor is its resistance to lightsabers, thanks to the special properties of the unique iron used in the armor's construction. Kmown as beskar in their native language, this rare metal is exceptionably durable for its weight, though only a select few Mandalorian craftsmen know how to work the metal for maximum effect (emphasis mine)."

Considering that the KOTOR comics show that armor and weapons for Mandalore the Ultimate's crusade against the Republic are mass-produced in automated "War Forges" rather than by individual smiths, it's highly unlikely that the KOTOR-era Neo-Crusader armor is as resilient as a top-of-the-line, hand-made beskar panoply (though it still stops lightsabers).

But here's the thing though-there's enough gaps in the armor for a Jedi to strike through...

But here's the thing: even partial body armor is useful, because it limits the number of ways that an opponent can attack you, making him more predictable and thus easier to counter and defeat.

...a Sith whose body is pumped up enough by the Dark Side can break through that armor with sheer force of will.

Eldon Ax couldn't do it, and she's pretty much the angriest Sith in the EU.

The one major instance of something like that happening in the EU is Exar Kun breaking into Freedon Nadd's tomb, and even as told by Kevin Anderson, it's basically presented as an Act of God, not some cool technique to be learned and then whipped out on the battlefield at will.

Crossbow bolts punch through breastplates and other plate armors with ease.

Not in this test (wherein a 1,000lb draw-weight crossbow fails to penetrate a steel breastplate at close range).

Except the force of a lightsaber hiting something is enhanced by the Force or the sheer strength of someone wielding it. Grievous broke through a phrik staff Kenobi used to block his lightsabers due to sheer strength alone:

If they can do that to phrik, then Mandalorian Beskar is similarly vulnerable.

The Magnaguards' electro-staves don't appear to be designed with the intent to block lightsaber strikes with the shaft, since, in the vast majority of instances, the droids use the electrified ends of the weapons to catch lightsaber blades when fighting Jedi, though in the scuffle aboard the bridge module of The Invisible Hand in Revenge of the Sith, Anakin can be seen seemingly drawing his blade across the shaft of his opponent's electro-staff once or twice (but this is consistent with Gorman Vandrayk, the inventor of phrik, stating in the KOTOR comics that the alloy would deflect glancing blows, but not a full on strike from a lightsaber).

However, because lightsaber blades carry no mass, the actual cutting "force" of a lightsaber attack against a resistant material would be the result of prolonged contact, with the lightsaber-wielder pressing the blade against the target for a more extended length of time, as we see with Qui-Gon when he attempts to cut through the blast-doors sealing off the bridge of Nute Gunray's flagship in The Phantom Menace.

In the KOTOR era, SWTOR era, and in Open Seasons, Mandalorians got killed by both blaster bolts and Jedi despite wearing their signature armor. Or don't you do your research?

As has been shown over the course of this rather ridiculous exchange, you wouldn't recognize research if you were slapped across the face with it (as I have, in fact, been doing to you throughout).

In the KOTOR era, Zayne Carrick survives an attack from the berserk Jedi Master Rana Tey solely because he's wearing Mandalorian armor. In the SWTOR era, the armor of the Mandalorian Dao Stryver proves impervious to everything that Shigar Konshi and Eldon Ax, his unwitting Jedi and Sith pawns, can throw at him, from lightsaber attacks to Force powers to large chunks of durrocrete being dropped on him, and in Open Seasons, the Jedi are shown, oddly enough, to never actually try to attack the Mandalorians' armor, but only the areas that their armor doesn't protect (which appears to be consistent with G-Canon, as there is evidence to suggest that it's George's intention that Mandalorian armor can turn back lightsabers.

I've read more than my share of SW books and comics. Also, real books that talk about stuff in the real world.

Yes, I'm sure you were at the top of your class at the Derek Zoolander School For Kids That Can't Read Good And Want To Do Other Things Good Too.

"Heroes" is a subjective term that can mean "guy who's a hero for our side because he kills the enemy". In the movies, name me a single "good" Separatist.

Oof, you fail, kid. You fail soooo hard...

The word "Hero" is originally derived, apparently, from the Proto-Indo-European root ser, which means "to protect," but even beyond that, the cultural provenance of the word as we have received it is heavily tied up in the divine ancestries and godly destinies of the countless heroic archetypes of the various Indo-European cultures, from which Joseph Campbell compiled his book, The Hero With a Thousand Faces, which in turn went on to be a major source of inspiration for George Lucas when crafting the mythology and denizens of the Star Wars universe...

My quote on Lucas, above, the one with two paragraphs.

Ah yes, the one that you keep trying to drag out of context.

Really? We didn't see past 1000 years after the Vong War. We only saw up to a century, and the galaxy seems to have recovered by the time of the Legacy Era. Whereas the Prequels take place 1000 years after the New Sith Wars finally ended.

The Yuuzhan Vong invasion lasted only a few years but killed trillions and left multiple planets with their biospheres completely destroyed. If the New Sith Wars had been anywhere near as savage, there wouldn't be any life left in the Galaxy after a thousand years of fighting.

The Massacre at Ossus was spearheaded by the Sith who killed the Jedi. Whereas the Mandos and their leader got their cans kicked by REGULAR STORMTROOPERS who forced them to retreat! XD

The Massacre at Ossus appears to have carried out entirely by Stormtroopers and cannon-fodder Sith Warriors (whom the Imperial Knights and named Jedi characters seem to find more of an annoyance than a real threat) with a few heavier hitters like Darth Maleval. But that makes sense, since the Sith/Imperial force was masquerading as a diplomatic delegation, and would not have been able to bring any heavy firepower without arousing suspicion.

To further complicate matters, the Jedi were backed up by friendly Yuuzhan Vong warriors, who aren't exactly known for being pushovers, with their lightsaber-and-blaster-resistant armor and astonishing melee prowess. Nonetheless, the result was still a massacre for the assembled Jedi and their allies, while the Mandalorians, despite facing (at the very least) combined infantry and armor elements that greatly outnumbered them, were still able to withdraw from Botajef in good order.

There, it is finished. I shall now turn my attention and energies back to my novel summaries.

 

[BR55]

And here's an end to it. I see no point in further discussion and will not be continuing this dialogue past this final response, since I've made my points effectively enough several times over now, and the arguments are at this point merely going in circles and turning on increasingly-autistic points of distinction. I will not, however, say that this has been a complete waste of time, since the research that I did while composing this last response revealed that John Jackson Miller, Drew Karpyshyn, the TORtanic writing crew and other LFL-affiliated authors were all faithfully incorporating Karen Traviss's Mando lore into their stories (even after Filoni's Mandalorians began appearing in TCW, interestingly), so that's something to think about, at least.

And now, without further ado...

Spoiler: I'm Telling You for the Last Time (Part One of Three)

LOL no. Surrendering to the Jedi merely because the latter were "barking threats" would the put the Jedi in the position of "win[ning] without firing a shot," plain and simply.

Wishful thinking. We know from dialogue in the PT that the Republic legal system is hopelessly corrupt, and tilted in favor of the unscrupulously wealthy like Nute Gunray. A small, down-on-their-luck mercenary company would be unlikely to plead their case successfully, and in the meantime, the Death Watch (who have managed to successfully remain off the Jedi's radar for decades) are getting up to Kad only knows what kind of mischief.

I have, actually, and therefore I can observe that you apparently haven't, since another of Sun Tzu's principles of warfare is that killing most or all of the enemy force is a very low and undesirable kind of victory. For Sun Tzu, the highest and best achievement of the wise General is to convince the enemy to surrender without engaging in hostilities, something that the Jedi obviously weren't capable of achieving at Galidraan.

Which is exactly what Blackman did. Vader is a whipped dog who can never bring himself to turn on the Emperor without love to motivate him, and Jango's entire life has been so dominated by revenge that it eventually consumes him entirely. Classic stuff, really.

You forgot Dorsk 81 Force-pushing an Imperial Navy Star Destroyer squadron out of the Yavin System in Anderson's Jedi Academy Trilogy.

Like it or not, though, all of those examples must be disregarded, because they conflict with the G-Canon status of Anakin Skywalker as the most powerful Jedi ever (who notably cannot throw Star Destroyers at people, nor is ever suggested anywhere in the films that he or any Force-user could). This is the fundamental problem with taking vidya (and Anderson's stories, for that matter) as your measuring-stick: the events of Lucas's films are basically the culmination of all history as far as the Galaxy Far, Far Away is concerned, with the prophesied Chosen One rising to confront the physical embodiment of all evil in a clash that will restore Balance to the Force, but Palpatine ends up looking positively cuddly in comparison with ridiculously over-the-top monsters like Nihilus or Tenebrae, and Anakin and Luke will seem distinctly unimpressive in the eyes of the average viewer next to unbridled power fantasies like Revan and Starkiller.

That's because you're insane.

The Sun Guard and the Echani basically don't exist outside of some reference materials and the Darth Plageuis novel and the KOTOR II game, respectively. That's not to say that they're not interesting factions in their own right, but they're not at all prominent by comparison with the Mandalorians, who have been building a fandom since 1978.

As for the Wookiees' perpetual lizard-skinned punching bags, well, now you're just saying every random thing that falls out of your brain.

Yes, because Luke is his son. If Vader was actually thinking like a Sith, he would have been in an even greater hurry to kill him than the Jensaarai kid. Amusingly, this is like the one place where you'd be justified in citing a video game, as TORtanic's Darth Malgus shows exactly how a devout Sith would address this problem, by killing his lover so that she won't become a weakness for him that enemies can exploit, and then using the anger and self-loathing over the act to power himself (but that would be an intelligent observation so of course it never occurred to you).

Do us all a favor and please don't go into politics.

Or rather, please do, but in the service of my political enemies.

Pickett's Charge would have been considered disastrous even if the Confederates had achieved their objective, just like the infamous Charge of the Light Brigade, where the cavalry formation in question suffered lighter casualties (forty percent versus more than fifty percent) and was able to achieve their objectives (at least temporarily) but the whole thing is still remembered as a legendary military disaster, as would the Jedi involvement at Galidraan, with its staggering consequence of a fifty percent killed in action ratio.

Never happened, according to George Lucas:

"Everybody said, 'Oh, well, there was a war between the Jedi and the Sith.' Well, that never happened. That’s just made up by fans or somebody."

As mentioned previously, in-universe, Galidraan is remembered by both Mandalorians and Jedi/Republic types as a pointless debacle.

Which is balanced by lore like the TORtanic novel Fatal Alliance, where Jedi Grand Master Satele Shan thinks it's absolutely miraculous that her former Padawan, Shigar Konshi, survived a simultaneous encounter with a Sith apprentice and a Mandalorian (this despite the fact that Satele personally trained Shigar to fight Mandalorians). Shigar, however, knows that the Mandalorian could easily have killed both Shigar and his Sith counterpart if he wanted (in fact, one of the funnier parts in the book is the Sith's non-stop, impotent raging over the Mando repeatedly beating her).

Fighting Force-users face-to-face is actually the best idea, since it removes most of the advantages that they have (as Jango demonstrates by killing upwards of a dozen Jedi Knights in melee at Galidraan). He fought well enough in AOTC (beating down one Jedi Council member and killing another) but he fought even better at Galidraan. To paraphrase Mike Tyson (again): "Everyone has a Force-power until they get punched in the head a couple of times."

Not so. Jango's objective was to get to his ship and take off. Obi-Wan's was to capture Jango and take him back to Coruscant for questioning (as per the orders he received from Yoda). Jango got away and Obi-Wan was never able to capture or interrogate him, so the win goes to Jango.

"Worked with" to the extent that Qui-Gon pointed out a couple of potential problems when Padme unveiled her plan, which she then basically dismissed as irrelevant considering the circumstances that she was working under. They also played little overall part in the operation to capture Nute Gunray, getting distracted by Darth Maul immediately after the Naboo troops had secured the Theed starfighter hangar and thereafter having no further influence on the outcome of the operation.

Interestingly, the essentially superfluous nature of the final lightsaber battle basically bookends the Saga, as Luke's confrontation with Vader and the Emperor aboard the Death Star was likewise entirely irrelevant to the outcome of the Rebel assault. In both the numerically first and final entries in the saga, the Jedi helping to win the friendship of a reclusive native species ends up being far more important to the heroes' primary collective goal (free Naboo/destroy the Death Star).

Oh, he very much did, young one. He fought Obi-Wan on roughly even terms* until he was able to get an opening to get on his ship and depart Kamino (which was his objective in the first place, so that's a win for him), and he killed Trebor with very precisely-placed blaster bolts after the Jedi Master had become aware of his presence and had already batted away several previous shots. This, in and of itself is pretty interesting, since it makes Jango the only character in the entire cinematic Star Wars saga who is shown fighting and killing Jedi one-on-one, while being neither a precognitive space-wizard nor a giant combat cyborg who can dent starship armor with his fists.

*Boba's attempts to turn Slave I's cannons on Obi-Wan ended up being a non-factor, as Jango courteously waited until Kenobi had got back to his feet to press the attack again.

Lucas has explicitly compared Boba Fett to Clint Eastwood's character, The Man With No Name, a similarly stoic, laconic bounty hunter (who famously survives a gunfight by wearing armor) primarily motivated by material gain, who also has an eccentric (and not always immediately evident) sense of honor. Concept art and several of the prototype versions of the Boba Fett costume emphasized this by giving the character a cape or serape worn across his torso Eastwood-style, though this apparently proved impractical for filming (but Jeremy Bulloch must have gotten the memo as well, since he likewise modeled his performance explicitly on Eastwood's according to his own accounts). The parallels were going to be explored further in an (as-of-yet) unfinished Season 7 episode of TCW, which sees Boba Fett confronting Cad Bane (himself an homage to Lee Van Cleef's character "Angel Eyes," Eastwood's antagonist in The Good, The Bad and The Ugly) with Bane mocking Boba's altruism, stating that the young Mandalorian's habit of "always fighting for those in need" is a "quick way to wind up poor, or dead, and probably both," while Boba angrily asserts that "no more innocent people are going to die, or be locked up, or live in fear!" (because of Bane, presumably).

You're contradicting your previous claim that newer canon supersedes older canon.

It's weird that you think that this is inconsistent with Traviss's stories. As with Traviss, though, it seems that this isn't the whole story for Lucas's Mandalorians, either, since TCW's Mandalorians, with their perpetual conflicts over whom they should be fighting for, or against, or whether they should be fighting at all, supposedly either come from Lucas's own ideas or at least have Lucas's seal of approval.

Neither does Lucas. He goes back and forth on whether Luke or Vader is more potentially powerful, has Obi-Wan defeat both Darth Maul and Darth Vader (but forces him to kill General Grievous with a blaster) has Vader kill Palpatine, the SW version of the Devil by picking him up and dropping him into a hole, the list is practically endless...

Not according to Lucas's films. If you're good, you end up dead, or dismembered, or dead and dismembered, whereas having the luck to consistently pull out fluke victories means you get the best Sith Lord kill-count in the PT and a long, quiet retirement with all of your limbs still intact.

Wrong. As the Attack of the Clones Visual Dictionary notes in the section on the Jedi Temple Archives (complete with helpful photo of a Sith holocron prop) the Jedi do, in fact, maintain a repository of forbidden Sith knowledge and teachings, which only the most experienced and wise Jedi Masters (for obvious reasons) are allowed to access for reference. They may not actively use these powers and techniques, but that's the wonderful thing about Palpatine as a villain: he's so very good at twisting the truth to serve his own ends.

And sometimes they aren't, as in the Prequels, where the Jedi basically shoot their entire Order in the head because they can't bring themselves to actually think of Anakin's struggles as a unique, individual problem and will only offer him cookie-cutter Jedi boilerplate and bafflegab when he tries to go to them for help and advice.

This is, again, prima facie evidence that you're not actually acquainted with Karen Traviss's books, a major plot-point of which is the idea that the Mandalorians should spend less time hiring themselves out as mercenaries to fight other peoples wars and more time building up Mandalore.

Which is to say, it's not simple at all, as neither Anakin nor Boba are simple "evil" cliches. They're both depicted as sympathetic figures, warped by the trauma of tragic, personal losses, with each being sort of a mirror-image of the other. Vader was originally conceived of as a relentless bounty hunter, and while Lucas eventually reimagined the character as a sort of dark knight, the bounty hunter concept would continue to haunt his imagination until it eventually took on a life of its own as the character of Boba Fett. Many years later, Lucas would strengthen the parallels between the two characters by making both of them "virgin births," raised by single parents to whom they are devoted and whose violent deaths early in their respective sons' lives have a heavy influence on the boys' development.

Try harder. Luke insists on saving Vader specifically because Vader is his father. He makes no mention of any "Jedi teachings" in pressing this matter, particularly not "not wanting to kill" (which would be laughably inconsistent if he did, since neither Luke nor any of the Jedi in the films seem to have any scruples about killing large numbers of people if the situation appears to call for it). This is reinforced and paralleled by Vader's behavior to Luke, where he should, as a sworn Sith Lord, be intent on killing Luke, since Palpatine wants to take on Luke as his new apprentice and dispense with Vader, but Vader, having accepted that Luke will never join him in deposing the Emperor, is resigned to dying so that at least his son, the legacy of his beloved and long-lost Padme, will live.

We don't know what "Mandalorian ways of thinking" are, in Lucas's view. All we have are Dave Filoni's second-hand statements about how the Fetts are different from Mandalorians, which doesn't really reveal much about Lucas's intentions for the latter beyond the fact that they exist and are apparently militarily formidable.

Again, he's telling the TCW writers how the Force works, how to write the Jedi and Sith, at a writers' meeting for the tv show. He's not laying out his personal belief system, anymore than J.R.R. Tolkien believed that religious ceremonies should be held only three times a year on top of a mountain and be presided over by the king, as Tolkien wrote of the Numenoreans in the days of their virtue (before they too were lead astray by an evil chancellor and destroyed save for a tiny remnant).

Nothing in Star Wars is that basic or simple. One of the overriding themes of both trilogies is the great difficulty of making the right choices, and in both trilogies, the Jedi mentor characters prove entirely useless to this end.

Again, Lucas unequivocally stated that there were "heroes on both sides" of the Clone Wars, and told SciFiNow that one of the purposes of The Clone Wars was "to see what that means and how it affects the characters." If you don't think that that aim was served particularly well by the series, blame Dave Filoni.

The objective of the Separatists is (big surprise) to separate from the Republic, as stated by Lucas in the opening crawl for AOTC, where it's noted that "several thousand solar systems have declared their intentions to leave the Republic." Later, in one of the cut-scenes from ROTS that would have fleshed out the political situation (but caused the overall pace of the film to drag), the young Mon Mothma is at pains to convince Padme that she and her circle of disenchanted senators "are not Separatists trying to leave the Republic." Interestingly, Lucas also depicts the Republic forces in an aggressive posture more often than not. Episode II is sub-titled "Attack of the Clones," the Republic is shown invading a Separatist homeworlds, and in Revenge of the Sith, aside from the Confederacy's desperate attempt to capture the Republic Head of State and thus end the war at a stroke, most of the battles shown involve Republic forces invading Separatist or neutral worlds like Mygeeto, Cato Neimodia or Utapau. There are undoubtedly parallels to be found with the real-life war between the American Republic and Confederacy (interestingly, there was a Union General and at least one Private named "George Lucas"), but that's a discussion to be had with someone intelligent, not with you.

There's no end of statements from both Lucas himself and from LFL spokesmen stating that Lucas doesn't give a damn about the books/comics/games. The only things that matter to him, the only things that are really, officially part of the SW universe, are the movies (and apparently) the TV shows.

Let's take a look at your evidence for this:

If by "Jedi refugees," you mean Luke. Also, I don't recall the CIS remnants being interested in restoring the Republic so much as simply overthrowing the Empire, either (which they would naturally see as the natural final evolution of Republic corruption).

"Jedi" in the sense that the Fel family are Force-users by the Legacy era, but they hold themselves separate from the Jedi Order proper and are frequently in some level of (usually doctrinal) conflict with it.

Good Lord, kid, you really just can't help yourself with these Force-user Herrenvolk Freudian slips.

"Servants" is inaccurate. The Mandalorians as a whole may have be friendly towards the New Republic/Galactic Alliance/Galactic Federation of Free Alliances in the post-Imperial era, but they're hardly a satrapy of the latter, more like a nation-sized elite PMC (as seen in Luke Skywalker and the Shadows of Mindor, where Lando is responsible for talking Fenn Shysa into committing his troops to a New Republic operation, and Legacy, where the Galactic Alliance hires the Mandalorians to defend Botajef until the GA can reinforce it, and then the Mandos withdraw to Mandalore when it appears that the GA have violated the terms of contract).

Also, by your account, the Jedi are fully capable of being total bastards without actually falling to the Dark Side, so using "becoming less anti-Jedi" as interchangeable with "becoming more sympathetic" as a general rule doesn't really work.

Hypocrisy has this funny way of undermining the moral message that you're trying to convey.

Lucas's characterization is never so uncomplicated (except for maybe Palpatine). At the beginning of the Clone Wars, the Separatist leaders are arrogant and callous, but by the end of the conflict they've been reduced to a pitiable bunch of refugees hiding out on Mustafar and begging for an end to the hostilities, while the Jedi grow increasingly secretive and ruthless, to the point where finally they attempt to assassinate the Republic Head of State in his own office.

Many Mandalorians are harder.

Tellingly, the most valuable Star Wars toys in existence are the rocket-firing Boba Fett prototypes that so many kids were so desperate to acquire when Kenner first ran that famous mail-in promotion all those years ago (sadly, the rocket-shooting feature ended up being scrapped after a child choked to death on a spring-loaded missile from a Mattel Battlestar Galactica toy).

But in a class of his own. No other Sith Lord, to my knowledge, has more action figures than Boba Fett.

Not at all. It's only natural that Vader, the central character and iconic face of the franchise, would be the most popular action figure (as Lucas said in a 1999 interview with Bill Moyers, some children "will be attracted to Luke Skywalker because he’s the good guy. But ultimately, we all know that Darth Vader’s more powerful than he is").

However, it's a testament to Boba Fett's innate and enduring appeal that he himself has accrued more figures than almost anyone outside of Vader and the main cast from ANH, despite having a similar amount of screentime (possibly slightly less) as Wedge Antilles, who, to date, has managed to score a measly eight action figures.

That's neither nor there. That there has only been one dedicated Mandalorian VG to date doesn't erase all of the Mandalorian content that's been produced in the movies/series/books/comics/toys over the years and is still on its way to consumers as we speak. You are, as ever, placing far too much emphasis on the vidya.

Not really. There's apparently a disturbingly large adult fan-base for the character, but I've never actually seen a child with an Ahsoka toy.

You're goal-post shifting again. Your initial claim was that Ahsoka "had TWO SHOWS whereas the Mandos only have one," and now you're back-pedaling since I've pointed out that the Mandos have made major appearances in both of Filoni's shows in addition to being the core of Favreau's The Mandalorian.

We've been through this already.
Galidraan will never be the "glorious disaster" for the Mandalorians you're so desperate to paint it as.
The True Mandalorians were massacred almost to a man.
End of story.
The Jedi regretting the loss of life, nice moving of the goalposts by the way, isn't remotely the same as the galaxy shaking in terror at the ferocity of the Mandalorians and wondering how the Jedi will ever recover.
By the way your definition of a Pyrrhic Victory is rather odd.
If completely destroying the enemy and leaving them with no chance of victory is Pyrrhic then Alesia was a Pyrrhic Victory for Ceasar because hey the Gauls killed quite a few Legionaries before they went down.
The True Mandalorians ceased to exist in the span of like 20 minutes.
Killing a few dozen Jedi, who they outnumbered by a substantial amount, in an order of 10,000+ does nothing to change that.
I have to wonder if you're even reading the same books that everyone else is.

 

[Adamska]

Daisy Ridley's parents might as well have thrown all that money into a furnace. She was no better than Boyega in acting for EPVII.

At least for my waifus, I tend to pick and choose different colors of hair now and then. (Blonde, black, blue, brown, green, red, depends on my mood.)

Given the rise of voice acting in lieu of moviemaking, I'm surprised Daisy hasn't snagged a VA role in some Disney cartoon. Heck, at least let her play Rey in some SW cartoon set during or after the ST.

Oh, Kathleen is very specific with the main actresses she hires. It's why she also had Jynn as a dark haired white woman with a some received pronunciation. I don't know why- oh who am I kidding this is why:

Drunk wine mom with a tentacle fetish is self-inserting herself into those characters to feel better and more powerful about herself. Literally her OCs are what she wants to be: flawless heroines who save everything and who have daddy issues due to being dug out of the gutter by Lucas as a diversity hire.

I have to wonder if you're even reading the same books that everyone else is.

He is not above editing or instantly changing his position when it suits him, using and denying what a creator does whenever possible if he thinks it works for his argument.

He's just salty he can't "win" via attrition anymore, since at least one person will always respond back. This is only after his attempt to pretend to be the reasonable or more knowledgeable one failed, and his reliance on social pressure via people discouraging longposting failed to get people to stop talking about his waifu author in a negative tone.

This is just one last gasp to pretend he has control over the argument.

 

[Zbk3VmLfujjzjxBd43tL]

as for VA, while a lot of them are overpaid (thanks to the guild) it probably won't be enough, nor have the glamour lot of people go into acting for. I mean, what's even out there? the rare high-profile disney/dreamworks animation, lot of shitty kids show or anime.
if it's about the craft itself they usually tend to go with theater.

Daisy Ridley could probably do video games or animu no problem and since she already has the Star Wars role she could be at the top of the VA pack so make a decent living off of it. The Star Wars role and whatever vidya/animu roles she gets would be enough for her to end up with a fanbase. Even terrible people with mediocre voices like Monica Rial have fanbases. As long as she voices the correct political opinions she'd be absolutely fine.

 

[Cactuar King]

We've been through this already.
Galidraan will never be the "glorious disaster" for the Mandalorians you're so desperate to paint it as.
The True Mandalorians were massacred almost to a man.
End of story.
The Jedi regretting the loss of life, nice moving of the goalposts by the way, isn't remotely the same as the galaxy shaking in terror at the ferocity of the Mandalorians and wondering how the Jedi will ever recover.
By the way your definition of a Pyrrhic Victory is rather odd.
If completely destroying the enemy and leaving them with no chance of victory is Pyrrhic then Alesia was a Pyrrhic Victory for Ceasar because hey the Gauls killed quite a few Legionaries before they went down.
The True Mandalorians ceased to exist in the span of like 20 minutes.
Killing 20 or so Jedi, who they outnumbered by a substantial amount, in an order of 10,000+ does nothing to change that.
I have to wonder if you're even reading the same books that everyone else is.

Keep in mind, they're called Fantardlorians for a reason.

 

[Adamska]

Daisy Ridley could probably do video games or animu no problem and since she already has the Star Wars role she could be at the top of the VA pack so make a decent living off of it. The Star Wars role and whatever vidya/animu roles she gets would be enough for her to end up with a fanbase. Even terrible people with mediocre voices like Monica Rial have fanbases. As long as she voices the correct political opinions she'd be absolutely fine.

The big reason she isn't doing this is twofold. The first is that voice work has only in the last decade or so been destigmatized as an avenue by large animated productions. If you were stuck being a voice for a character, that crippled your career choices for a long time; it wasn't until the 90s and 2000s that this stigma went away.

The second is that for decades voicework was its own industry and had its own unions and guilds. It still does, and a recent fight that's been in Hollywood is trying to force in standard actors to voice acting roles to ensure they can be kept employed and money can be made. Issue is that this intrudes on the VA community, who were long ignored and they were I believe tied to writing to give you an idea.

Though I am pretty sure Daisy is doing roles recently; I think some shitty game had her as a VA. But that's why you aren't seeing a big flood. Like how people see comics and games, these cumrags don't like the lack of "glamor" and attention these venues have. They also have to deal with an entrenched system that knows it'd struggle to not get destroyed and absorbed by them.

 

[Honka Honka Burning Love]

Are those two retards still having the slap fight about Mandalorians and Jedi?

It has been weeks at this point.

 

[LORD IMPERATOR]

And here's an end to it.

Here we go again............

Spoiler: MANDO MADNESS IX: RISE OF THE MANDALORIAN

So? If the Jedi "won" at Galidraan, does that hurt the True Mandalorians in the slightest? No. It does not. At worst, they spend some time in jail before getting out, but Jango Fett can use that to get a good lawyer in their trial (I'm pretty sure that with all the True Mandalorians' mercenary contracts Jango can splurge enough cash to get a good lawyer) to accuse the Governor of Galidraan of ordering them to kill insurgents while housing a bunch of Mandalorian terrorists. Which would lead to the Jedi investigating the matter, which would lead to them finding out the truth and arresting the governor of Galidraan as well as the Death Watch, which would exonerate Fett and his men, getting them freed. Again, the Jedi are too soft, if it were a Sith army in front of Jango, he's justified in shooting at them, because the Sith either kill people down to the last man, or they torture captives/indoctrinate them into being servants. But the worst the Jedi can do to you in captivity is put you through a trial, which can be your time to speak your side of the story and possibly get yourself exonerated. Quite literally, Jango only has himself to blame for the deaths of his men at Galidraan. Not the Jedi, who were just defending themselves, not the other Mandalorians who were just following his orders, but Jango himself. He chose to fire that first shot, and again, I don't care what galaxy you're from, a man shoots at you, you kill him.

The Republic legal system is only tipped in favor of wealthy senators and big, fat corporations. Who probably don't give a rat's ass about some Mandos and some local governor. Meaning that they will likely investigate the matter rather thoroughly, because nobody in the Republic's upper crust has any stake in defending either the Galidraan government or the Death Watch. The former is some small local government that the Trade Federation could probably conquer in a day. The latter is some bandit group that most of the upper crust of Coruscant would see as thugs who should be shot. So again, I don't see any reason why they wouldn't investigate Galidraan's government or the Death Watch thoroughly. Especially since Jango probably has a holomessage or a record regarding the Galidraan governor ordering them to kill people on his planet. Heck, Jango can just present a proof of their contract with the governor to the Senate, which would be enough proof to show the galaxy that the governor hired Jango's men to kill people, which would turn the Jedi and the Senate against the Galidraan governor and the Death Watch. After that, Jango and his men can just relax on some beach world as the Jedi throw the Galidraan governor in chains while eradicating the Death Watch.

Except Jango didn't even attempt to get the Jedi to surrender either. The Jedi even tried to tell Jango and his men that if they surrender, they'll be treated well, and it was Jango and his forces who chose to fight to the death on a foolish battle. So if anything, Sun Tzu would be smacking Jango upside on the head while telling the Jedi that he understands, because they at least made the attempt to get the Mandalorians to surrender.

Not really. Vader was portrayed in EPV as the kind of guy who wanted to overthrow the Emperor and use Luke to do it. Like any other Sith apprentice, he was chomping at the bit to kill his master, because THAT'S WHAT HIS MASTER TAUGHT HIM TO DO. Meanwhile, Jango Fett fired upon the Jedi instead of explaining what the hell was going on. Blackman portrayed Vader as a wishy-washy coward who failed to kill Palpatine despite the chance being openly there (especially when Palpatine had his back turned to Vader as he was struggling with Starkiller) and he portrayed Jango Fett as an idiot who seeks vengeance for a massacre he started, who blames others for a calamity he caused. Really, it makes both Jango and Vader look like fools.

Again, G-canon openly stated that the Jedi in the Prequels era were weaker than their former counterparts. Mace Windu even admitted it himself when Kenobi told him about a clone army.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=to0AM25gfDY

"I think it is time that we informed the Senate that our ability to use the Force has diminished." -Mace Windu to Yoda in Star Wars Episode II: Attack of the Clones, regarding their inability to sense things like the Clone Army happening under their noses.

Dorsk 81 did his feat in the New Jedi Order era, an era where Jedi like Kyle Katarn were showing off Force feats that made Clone Wars Jedi look like fools. Heck, Luke's New Jedi Order were even capable of using Force Storm, AKA the power that Sidious used to destroy whole fleets. They just didn't use it that much because they can fall to the Dark Side. The main reason why Jedi in the movies aren't as strong as Jedi outside the movies is because the movie-era Jedi themselves admit that their powers in the Force have grown weaker. Maybe it's because of a long peace, maybe they got sloppy, maybe they lost holocrons that gave them past truths, maybe it's a combination of all three. But trying to say that we have to limit canonical Force feats to what we only see in the movies is bullshit, especially since with the Prequels, the Jedi Order of old was growing weaker, while in the OT, we barely have Jedi feats considering that we just have two old Jedi at death's door while Vader and the Emperor barely got time to show off their powers. (That, and the tech wasn't there yet, so they had to settle for guys falling dead when Vader shoots them a mean look.)

Plus, if we throw out anything that isn't G-canon, then that means EVERYTHING about the Mandalorians gets thrown out aside from Jango Fett and Boba Fett. EVERYTHING. Their code of honor, their language, their successes against the Jedi and the Republic, ALL OF IT. As far as G-canon is concerned, there were only two Mandalorians on-screen, and they were both money-hungry scumbags who get owned whenever they face an enemy face-to-face with no backup or surprise attacks. There's no proof in G-canon that Mandalorian armor is capable of blocking lightsabers, there's no proof in G-canon that Mandalorians can typically kill Jedi or match Force-sensitives in battle, all we get are two mauve-shirts who have no honor, are barely able to fight Jedi face-to-face, and they lose all the time. Again, G-canon portrays the Mandalorians as the Star Wars equivalent of Team Rocket. They lose every major battle they get into. Everything else that the Mandos have came from C-canon, be it the old Marvel Star Wars comics that came out in the wake of the films, or the novels, comics, and games that detailed the many aspects of Mandalorian culture that didn't show up in the movies.

Also, Vader and Luke in Legends are capable of things that make Vitiate and Revan look like chumps. Force Unleashed, which was Lucas' official bridge between the two trilogies of films he made, gives Vader powers that makes Revan look like an amateur by comparison. And that was AFTER he was mutilated in Mustafar. And in the Legends stuff, Legends Luke defeats Dark Empire Palpatine, who practically is as powerful as Vitiate to the point where Vitiate's characteristics were mostly plagiarized from Dark Empire Palpatine. So in the end, the Skywalkers are still top dog. A paraplegic from their clan blows away entire armies with mere gestures, and his son defeats an evil space emperor who can decimate fleets with his mind.

So I'm insane for saying that the side that lost 99% of its troops is the losing side in a battle? Way to go, genius.

The Mandalorians also barely exist outside of Legends. Especially since outside of Legends, despite their fandom, the Mandos in G-canon are just the space equivalent of Team Rocket. You can keep on hanging to that one Jedi kill Jango Fett had in AOTC, but it pales in comparison to how he lost the other two fights he was in, or how his son never won a fight but got his ass kicked by a blind man. Fandom is irrelevant to the story. Unless of course, you're a member of the 501st fan club, in which case your fandom is so strong that it became canon.

That, and the Trandoshans were one of the main bad guys in the Mandalorian-themed Republic Commando game. They took down a whole ship full of clones and invaded Kashyyyk with the help of the Separatists. And of course, the events in that game are as canon as the Mando-books you keep salivating over.

Except Vader needed his son to overthrow Sidious. Weren't you listening?

"Luke, you can destroy the Emperor. He has foreseen this. It is your destiny. Join me, and together, we can rule the galaxy as father and son!"
-Vader to Luke in Star Wars Episode V: Empire Strikes Back.

If Vader killed Luke, he'd be killing the one chance he has of overthrowing Sidious, which is something that no Sith will do. Even in KOTOR, Revan kept Bastila as an apprentice in the Dark Side ending because he needs her Battle Meditation to win battles. Vader needs Luke for his battle with the Emperor, and killing Luke would be counter-intuitive.

I'm pretty sure the side that lost all its soldiers is the losing side. Or what, can the True Mandalorians defeat the Jedi with civilians? Workers? XD

So? Again, the Mandalorians lost 99% of their army at Galidraan. Which makes it even more disastrous for the Mandalorians, because they lost EVERYONE. I'm pretty sure that's worse than losing by half. Or are you insinuating that the Jedi shouldn't have lost half their men at Galidraan because the Mandalorians are unworthy foes?

Er, no. Lucas had Kenobi say this in the first movie:

"For a thousand generations the Jedi were the guardians of peace and justice in the Old Republic."
-Obi-Wan Kenobi to Luke Skywalker, Star Wars Episode IV, A New Hope.

And again, this is the same Lucas whose only portrayal of the Mandalorians was that they were losers in the movies. Or pacifists/bandits in the TV show. Again, if we stick to only what Lucas makes or says, the Mandalorians lose 99% of the lore and are reduced to being the Team Rocket of Star Wars. So go ahead and play that G-canon game. G-canon practically makes the Mandalorians useless and weak, only able to win with surprise attacks and needing starfighter support against a single Jedi in open combat.

Most of the Jedi don't even care about Galidraan. Dooku didn't like it, but the Jedi forgot about it and went back to policing the galaxy. The Mandalorians remember it more because they keep bitching about how the Jedi massacred them there, which kinda makes them look weak in front of the Jedi, because at least the Neo-Crusaders saw Malachor V as an honorable battle where they lost to the Jedi but with some measure of dignity, despite the fact that Revan practically crushed all their hopes of making a new Mandalorian Empire.

Except TOR balances that out by having the Mandalorians be completely useless in the game's storyline. All they do is get their asses kicked in that game by either the Republic players or Zakuul's droids. Mandalore, the big badass leader of the Mandalorians, got killed by some stupid robots and got replaced by some idiot bounty hunter who also has her own problems. One case of a Padawan surviving an encounter with a Sith and a Mandalorian (yeah, truly a fair fight there) cannot make up for a whole game's worth of the Mandos being target practice for Republic players and Zakuul battle droids. Forget defeating the Jedi, they couldn't even defeat souped-up Republic grunts, pirates, and robots! The only one who can is the Grand Champion of the Great Hunt, who wasn't born Mandalorian and wasn't trained as a Mando, and who also could refuse to be a Mandalorian.

Fighting Force-users face-to-face always works? Tell that to the Mandalorians who died at Galidraan to the Jedi. Jango managed to kill some Jedi, but his entire army was killed by the Jedi. Tell that to Jango when he failed to defeat Obi-Wan despite his son using a starfighter's guns to help him. The only kill he had was that one Jedi who tried to kill Dooku and was unprepared for Jango. When he fought Windu face-to-face, Jango lost his head. And of course, Boba couldn't even defeat Jedi face-to-face, even with ONE Jedi distracted by Jabba's army of goons, he couldn't take the guy out. So if anything, Mandos fighting Jedi face-to-face is stupid, Galidraan proved that when Jango's ENTIRE ARMY OF MANDALORIANS GOT KILLED.

No, the win doesn't go to Jango at all. He was trying to kill Obi-Wan, as evidenced by the blaster fire and missiles, and his son using a blaster cannon from the ship to try and kill Kenobi. Those aren't weapons you use to keep someone away, those are lethal weapons meant to kill someone. And of course, Jango failed. Despite using weapons that can kill whole battalions of soldiers, he couldn't kill ONE Jedi. So if anything, the victory goes to Kenobi for surviving missiles and starship weapons being fired at him, and coming out of it as if all he got was a bug bite.

Qui-Gon was planning where and when the Queen and the party should go, and he was at the planning table before the battle. Heck, he practically took control on Tatooine, and if it wasn't for Maul, he'd have been the one to take Gunray captive.

Actually, the Jedi duels were the most important parts of the Endor and Naboo battles. If Darth Maul won, he'd go upstairs, free Gunray, kill Queen Amidala and her entire entourage, and help the Viceroy get away from justice. If Luke was defeated or if the Emperor escaped, he'd get away from the battle at Endor and rally Imperial forces for a counter-attack. That, or he'd keep using his Battle Meditation to tip the scales of the battle to the Empire, and the Imperials would rout and annihilate the rebels.

Eh, no. Jango was trying to kill Obi-Wan to no avail, and Jango killing Trebor was due to Trebor being more focused on Dooku. Jango failed to kill one Jedi despite having artillery AND a starship at his side, and he only killed another Jedi because of a last-minute surprise attack. And of course, when he was faced with a Jedi that he couldn't ambush or use a starship on, he got decapitated. Oops. And no, Boba using Slave 1 is not a non-factor, since he used its ship cannons on Kenobi. So again, the battle was anything but an even fight, and Kenobi walked off from it as if it was nothing. At least when Canderous fights Dark Jedi, he fucking guts them with vibrosword katanas while looking them in the face, instead of using a starship on one or ambushing them from the side.

Lucas still made Boba Fett Jabba's pawn. And Boba explicitly works for money (he was worried about Han dying because he would lose the bounty from Jabba) and he got his candy ass kicked even with an entire army of goons on his side against less than half a dozen people. And of course, his father was introduced as someone who was trying to kill an innocent woman for pay. Neither Mandalorians were presented as honorable. In fact, Jango's surprise attack on Master Trebor proved that. Mandalorians in the films play dirty, using surprise attacks and tricks, and yet they fail to kill the Jedi three times out of four.

If the newer canon supersedes older canon, that means the TCW show and its portrayal of the Mandalorians utterly supersedes the Karen Traviss books. Seasons 1-5 were made when most of Legends was still canon.

Lucas' seal of approval still came through when TCW retconned the Traviss books into nonexistence with its Mandalore plot. And Lucas still portrayed Mandalorians as greedy, selfish, underhanded thugs who consistently lose to Jedi outside of surprise attacks. If I were you, I wouldn't focus on Lucas' seal of approval or what he approves of. Because A) he approved of Dave Filoni's Clone Wars show retconning Karen Traviss' portrayal of the Mandalorians, and B) his own movies portrayed Mandalorians as basically Space Team Rocket.

Lucas still cared enough about power levels to the point where Anakin and Luke's power levels WERE A MAIN PLOT POINT in the main trilogy. The reason why Palpatine befriended Anakin and why Vader bothered to try and recruit Luke was due to their innate power.

What retirement? Kenobi fluked a victory against Maul and Anakin, but still lost to Vader and was reduced to the space equivalent of Navi from Ocarina of Time.

The Jedi kept a vault of Sith artifacts, but that doesn't mean they study or even use said techniques. Otherwise, we'd see Jedi Council members frying droids with Force lightning or using Sith sorcery in battle. They don't. At most, they kept Sith artifacts to keep them away from the public and to study them for understanding, but that doesn't mean they use dark side techniques themselves like they're Kyle Katarn or Jaden Korr.

The Jedi offer Anakin advice on what will make him happy-and what will make him happy is if he stopped obsessing over Padme and losing those close to him. Obi-Wan was clearly affected by the loss of Satine, but he still soldiered on and was still mentally sound because he didn't get obsessed over losing her the way Anakin obsessed over Padme. And in the end, Anakin's relationship with Padme was poisonous, he was too obsessed with her to the point where he didn't even respect her wishes anymore. It isn't like a normal relationship where he takes her advice and tries to carry it out. In fact, whenever she tries to tell him something, he tells her to shut up. That's not a healthy relationship. That, and the Jedi even offered to kick Anakin out of the Jedi Order if he didn't want to follow orders, so if he wanted to quit, he could have done so at any time.

Again, Lucas' advice on what makes people happy comes right out of Jedi texts. That's him being pro-Jedi at most.

Then why are Traviss' fans angry with the New Mandalorians and Satine? She's doing exactly that! Building up Mandalore and turning her back on mercenary ways. Instead, Traviss continues to glorify the "True Mandalorians" who continue to hire themselves out as mercenaries, while her fans demonize Mandalorians who have built up a great city and have turned away from mercenary whoring. If what you say is true, Traviss would have condemned the "True Mandalorians" and the Supercommando Codex which calls for Mandalorians to hire themselves out for mercenary work.

Lucas is the same guy who made Anakin kill children TWICE and made Boba Fett the bitch of some brutal gangster. Heck, as a Darth Vader fan, I felt that Lucas was demonizing the man way too much. Not only does Vader come off as completely unsympathetic in the OT outside of the last few minutes of ROTJ, but the PT comes along and he winds up killing kids TWICE after he was portrayed as a whiny, angsty boy who was demanding way too much. In fact, the portrayal of Anakin took a dark shift after Phantom Menace; gone was the fun kid we knew from the desert, replaced by a guy who was way too brash and way too eager to get himself into trouble, a guy who had no problems entertaining dark thoughts, a man who barely felt like a hero. Hence why his turn in ROTS didn't really feel all that alien to me, when the Dark Side was already inside of him in the previous flick. But it does have the added effect of making him less sympathetic, because he's portrayed as a selfish, obsessive jerk. In EPIII he's portrayed as a better man, but that falls apart when he's forced to choose, and he reverts back to his dark instincts. As for Boba Fett, there's nothing sympathetic about him at all except for the one scene in Geonosis where he holds his father's helmet, but given that his father was a scumbag who tried to kill an innocent woman campaigning for peace merely because he was paid, that sympathy doesn't go far. And in the OT, he's basically just a mauve shirt. A gaudier Stormtrooper working for a gangster who gets his ass kicked despite having the numbers advantage of Jabba's gang being on his side. Again, that's not sympathetic at all. Plus, the virgin births were implied to be unnatural: EPIII implies that Darth Plagueis was behind the creation of Anakin, and it was confirmed in the Plagueis novel. Boba was created through cloning. Neither one are natural births and instead come off as more unnatural and artificial. So no, nothing about that is sympathetic at all. It makes them good villains, but not sympathetic ones.

Nope. Again, Luke is going for the Jedi route of sparing and saving someone, when in most cases, sons have tried to kill their fathers for less. And when Luke does approach Vader, he appeals to the Jedi inside the man and tries to get it out, with limited success by the end of the film. "I am a Jedi, like my father before me!" were his words to the Emperor. Meaning that he believes the good inside Vader will return him to being a Jedi, just like he is a Jedi who proudly bears that title. Whereas Kenobi and Yoda feel more like Sith sending Luke as their Wrath to eradicate a rival. So again, Luke is the loyalist to the Jedi principles here, whereas Kenobi and Yoda were willing to compromise those principles to rid the galaxy of a threat. If you actually look at what the Jedi believe in instead of generalizing their ideas as mere obstructive dogmas, you'd be able to see that Luke was more loyal to the Jedi teachings than his masters were, and he still remained so in Legends long after Endor.

Lucas portrayed the Mandalorians as either greedy scumbags who would kill innocents for money (the Fetts) or war-hungry assholes (the Death Watch). The only good Mandalorians in works he personally approved of are Satine's pacifists and MAYBE Bo-Katan's renegades, but only because the latter allied with the former after Maul took over Mandalore.

Those were Lucas' personal beliefs, you twat. And it wasn't just about the Force, but about finding happiness. The Jedi find happiness because they're selfless and don't get attached, the Sith get attached and get greedy and that destroys them in the end. Those were Lucas' personal views, on how attachment or the lack thereof can make people happy or sad, not just about how the Force works. The man practically echoes Jedi propaganda and says that the way to happiness is being like the Jedi, acting all selfless and not getting attached. That has nothing to do with the Force and more to do with personal beliefs.

Lucas sees things rather simply. Dark is bad, light is good. Even from the point of view of Sith Lords, the Dark Side slowly consumes you and eats you up, withering out your life force, to the point where some Sith like Zash, Vitiate, and Palpatine had to seek new bodies because as Sidious says in Dark Empire, "flesh does not easily support this great power." Meanwhile, those one with the Light can attain what the Sith seek most: immortality, and without the cost of one's body or soul. Kenobi and Yoda have learned how to attain life in the next world, and you don't see the Force consuming their bodies the way it does to Sith like Sidious. Some Jedi like Master Fay even retained youthful looks despite their age, as their one-ness with the Force has afforded them the kind of spiritual health that transfers over to the physical.

Lucas didn't portray the Seps as heroic in the slightest. At most, they have "heroes" that kill Jedi like Dooku and Grievous, but none of the Sep characters in the films were sympathetic, which was why TCW had to invent some, only for Mina Bonterri to die and Lux to become a Republic ally. Oops.

Yeah, NO. Lucas portrayed the Seps as belligerents from the start. Even before the Republic is revealed to have a clone army, the Seps were planning on creating a massive droid army to hold the Republic hostage and make it agree to their demands. Not as a self-defense measure, but as a measure of pre-emptive strike, which necessitated a pre-emptive strike on behalf of the Republic. In EPIII, outside of Mygeeto and Cato Neimoidia, the Separatists are invaders, whether it be Coruscant, Utapau, or Kashyyyk, which shows that the Seps weren't interested in just turtling up to defend, but they want to outright crush the Republic, just as they planned back in EPII. And of course, most works portrayed the Separatists as evil and few mentions of good Seps were present, even in Legends. Lucas even retconned things so that the Separatists were the ones building the Death Star and not the Empire, which reveals even more evil intentions as the Seps weren't just gonna stop at self-defense, but were planning on destroying worlds to prove their might. That basically makes them just as evil as Grand Moff Tarkin, because what he did, they were planning to do. That is not sympathetic in the slightest, that's just pure fucking evil, and we see the Seps in many instances doing evil things in Legends and TCW, like experimenting on live test subjects or enslaving whole colonies.

Then that means that to Lucas, the Mandalorian honor code that's so beloved by many fans doesn't exist. The Supercommando codex doesn't exist to him. The honorable Mandalorians led by Fenn Shysa doesn't exist to him. Only the Fetts, and Death Watch, both of whom are evil, and the Pacifist Mandalorians who rejected that evil.

Jedi refugees as in Garen Muln, Rahm Kota, Shaak Ti, and other Jedi who either came into contact with the Separatists who took them in, or came into contact with the Rebel Alliance which has since absorbed Separatist remnants into its body. Luke's no refugee, because he came to the rebels after the Jedi Purge. That, and they specifically joined an organization which is titled "The Alliance to RESTORE THE REPUBLIC." Presumably because they all wanted a Republic that wasn't as corrupt as the later-era Republic and get it back to its democratic roots.

The Imperial Jedi under the Fel Dynasty were Jedi. Any doubts about it are erased when THEY HAVE A STANDING ORDER TO KILL THEIR EMPEROR IF HE FALLS TO THE DARK SIDE. Yes, they're just as dogmatic as the Jedi of old, except instead of serving a senate, they serve an Emperor. They're still the same light-sided goodie-goodie two-shoes as they used to be.

The Mandalorians under Fenn Shysa were part of the Alliance to Restore the Republic, and NOT as a PMC. They were all serving the Alliance cause to free the galaxy from the Empire. After Boba Fett took over, THEN they became a PMC, because Fett made it so that the Mandos' loyalties were for sale, be it to the Vong, the Alliance, or Natasi Daala.

At most, Jedi become total bastards when they're in dire straits and harsh actions are called for. Yes, they tried to turn Luke into a hitman, but at that point, Palpatine had committed so many crimes that both the Mandalorians and Jedi, as well as many other people, want him dead. So even when Jedi become total bastards, it's rather warranted. It's a lot less like Adolf Hitler and a lot more like DC's Spectre, where the harshness has a just purpose.

Hypocrisy is when Mando-fans blast the Jedi for kidnapping children yet the Mandos kidnap children too. Hypocrisy is blaming the Jedi for the Mandalorian deaths at Galidraan when the Mandos shot first. Hypocrisy is blaming the Jedi for leading the clone army when the clones were indoctrinated to be slaves of the Republic by the Mandalorian leader and his Mandalorian mercenaries, so much so that some clones even hunted down deserters from said clone army, and not because the Jedi willed it.

Maybe that's because the Republic head of state happens to be the same guy responsible for all the deaths in the war, Republic or Separatist? Maybe that's why the Jedi wanted him dead? I mean, if you went through a massive war where trillions of people died, and one motherfucker turns out to be responsible for the whole affair and he played both sides to gain more power, I'm pretty sure the average person would want him dead, too.

Most Legends toys are overpriced. Jedi or Mandalorian. But again, Vader sold the most, which means that the Sith commanded the most respect. When TPM came out, Darth Maul became a hot-topic icon. Which means it wasn't just Vader who was selling merch up the ass, but his Prequels counterpart, too.

Yeah, no. Again, Vader was the main major seller of the SW toy franchise, and aside from him, the main heroes sold a fuckton as well. Fett sold well, but he was hardly alone, and when TPM came out, Darth Maul became every kid's favorite toy on the wishlist.

Maybe that's because the video games are the most popular Legends content out there? Moreso than the books or comics, which command at most, a respectable but not-too-large audience that grows smaller by the day, while games reach a wide range of audiences from casuals who don't have time to read, to diehards who collect all the books?

I've seen plenty of kids with Ahsoka toys. And adults can make anything out of anyone. Plus, at this point, we've seen Ahsoka as an adult, and many fans draw her as an adult, too. So what's wrong with that?

I'm not backpedaling. Again, the Clone Wars and Rebels shows only have a few segments dedicated to Mandalorians, whereas they mostly focus on the Jedi. For Rebels, Sabine isn't the main character, it's Ezra Bridger. And in Clone Wars, the Mandalorians rarely even appear, most of the episodes deal with JEDI. Which leaves us only with the Mandalorian show where the main star is a Mando. A Death Watch Mando, by the looks of things. But that's the only show where the main character is Mandalorian. And how many episodes have the Mandos as the main characters, as opposed to the Jedi? Most TCW episodes have the Jedi as the main characters. Many Rebels episodes focus on Kanan and Ezra. There's an arc here or there about the Mandos in both shows, but the fact that there's an arc for Mandos is reflective of the fact that the Mandos rarely get the focus.

 

[ZMOT]

Even terrible people with mediocre voices like Monica Rial have fanbases. As long as she voices the correct political opinions she'd be absolutely fine.

literally who? I mean
>watching dubs

but seriously, most animu VAs probably work for peanuts, which isn't probably the reason daisy got into acting in the first place. otoh her celebrity status might allow her to get into it easier since the whole industry is gated as fuck to the point it's borderline incestous with the same handful of people voicing almost every character.

 

[LORD IMPERATOR]

Spoiler: I'm Telling You For the Last Time (Part Two of THree)

As of Rebels, the Death Watch doesn't appear to exist anymore. Post-Clone Wars (during which the Death Watch splintered into pro and anti-Maul factions) they've gone back to siding with their individual clans and fighting against the Empire (as for Bo-Katan, her past affiliation with the Death Watch notwithstanding, she actually belongs to House Kryze).

Spoiler: MANDO MADNESS X: MANDO MASSACRE

Rebels' Mandalorians openly identify as Clan Vizsla goons, mate. Sabine even tells that to Fenn Rau's men. At most, only Rau's men aren't Death Watch. Everyone else is, from Bo-Katan's men, to Maul's goons, to Sabine's family. Bo Katan deserted House Kryze and became Death Watch after disagreeing with her sister on the course Mandalore should take.

Er, what's your proof for the Mandalorians in the Mandalorian show not being related to Filoni's stuff? You do realize those guys are all Death Watch, right? And they're nomadic not by choice, because they're on the run. They don't even act like Traviss' Mandalorians because they're hiding themselves from the outside. Last I checked, LOTF Mandos and the Clone Wars Mandalorians from Traviss' works aren't hiding underground like they're the fucking Brotherhood of Steel from Fallout.

Yeah, no. TOR practically shits on the Mandos overall, they're not the Jedi-killers Traviss claims them to be. Mandalore died to some droids, the Mandalorians are easily being manipulated by the Sith to fight their wars for them, Mandalorians not only get killed by Jedi like Kellian Jarro, but also by pirates and republic grunts who tag along with the Jedi. Outside of the language, TOR practically takes a massive dump on Traviss' Mandalorians.

Padme at that point wasn't exposed to the world outside of Naboo. She only left Naboo to become a Senator AFTER she met Anakin on Tatooine. She didn't know that Republic laws don't matter there because it wasn't Republic territory, as if them not taking Republic credits wasn't enough of a give-away.

And according to Lucas, the way to being happy is by being like a Jedi who sacrifices selfish desires and attachments for selflessness and detachments. Next.

Really? Last I checked in the films, Kenobi wasn't the one throwing men into the fire. In fact, in EPIII, he used himself as a bait to distract Grievous as his men came in for an ambush. And in TCW, Anakin is the one recklessly leading charges that get clones killed left and right.

Bail Organa is so popular Palpatine couldn't even touch him. Even though he knew the guy was a political enemy, he couldn't kill the guy or accuse him of treason in front of the Senate.

No shit. Of course Palpatine would win. But that discussion was about a hypothetical scenario where Mace killed Sidious. With Sidious dead, Bail could denounce him as a Sith responsible for the war, and he could even relay Anakin's accusation that Sidious was a Sith Lord-the same accusation that got Mace to jump into action.

Again, if what you say about Lucas only considering the movies to be canon is true, then that means to him, the Mandalorians were nothing more but thugs, because that's all the movies portray.

Not really. Again, Lucas threw that concept away for a reason. Perhaps he realized that a Mandalorian killing Mace Windu is just not possible. Or that it would look stupid. Again, he didn't even shoot the scene to begin with, so it can't even be admitted as evidence. It's even less admissible than Force Unleashed, which he did create as his bridge between the two trilogies.

Then if that's the case, Jango should have been knocked unconscious by the monster smashing him around. He wasn't. Probably because his armor did protect him.

Except in many other forms of media, including TOR, Mando armor does jack shit against Force lightning, in cutscenes or gameplay. Heck, hit Boba Fett with lightning in Force Unleashed, and not only does he get fried, his jetpack goes haywire. Also, in the TOR novel Deceived, a Jedi manages to survive falling from orbit, so withstanding a few bolts of lightning is rather low-end in the TOR books.

Again, you're using the same page except editing out the lower half:



The lower half where Fett runs like a chicken from a small group of guys. And again, those were dark novices, not Sith Lords, and they almost killed him. They just chose not to because they found their targets and saw Fett as not their problem anymore.

Except Luke was also deflecting shots from other bad guys. What's to say he won't deflect Fett's attacks or throw them back at him with the Force?

Yeah, no. Again, that move only killed ONE STORMTROOPER. Which again, if that's your barometer for badassery, then congrats, even regular Rebel commandos are as badass as Mandos now since they killed Stormtroopers too. And again, the lower half of the page has the Dark Jedi novices walk away calmly after Fett chickens out and runs from a couple of guys. If Mandos were as strong as you said they were, he'd have killed them all. And of course, the comic page was praising Bounty Hunters as a whole, not Stormtroopers.

A good friend? The films portrayed Anakin as anything but that. In fact, that's part of what people complained about: the friendship between him and Obi-Wan was barely explored, and Anakin came off more like a whiner. As a husband, Anakin appreciates Padme's beauty, but doesn't listen to her opinions, even telling her to make a motion in the senate instead of having him talk to the Chancellor to end the war. That is not what a good husband looks like. Good husbands listen to their wives and take into account their advice. The one thing where you're right is that he was shown as a loving son, but that love gets twisted into hate when his mother dies and he annihilates a whole village, down to the last man, woman, and child. Then he talks about the massacre to his future wife. That's practically Tywin-esque behavior there, not sympathetic.

I was talking about how Imperial officers had standards despite being evil, you twat. Havent' you heard of "Even Evil has Standards?" Hence why despite being racist pricks, Imperial officers are men willing to die for their country, and they detest men who sell their services to the highest bidder.

That, or Vader could have sent scouts to nearby worlds and had one spot Han and company in Bespin. After all, Bespin wasn't that far from Hoth.

The Ancient Romans condemned greed and were bemoaning the fact that greed had permeated Roman society. Hence why when they became Christians, Rome counted Greed as one of the Seven Deadly Sins.

Yeah, those pages show what BOBA thinks of Jango. Boba sees Jango as an honorable man, a great hero. The film portrays something else: Jango tries to kill an innocent woman for pay, and he kills his coworkers brutally to cover his tracks.

Yes, that was later on. WAY LATER. That was long after Rohlan first told Zayne that they had orders to capture Jedi back in the beginning chapters.

That was because Revan realized he was falling to the Dark Side back during Malachor V. He sent those men to die, not because they had to, but because Dark-Side Revan needed some rivals to be killed and some Jedi turned to Darkness, as HK-47 states:

Malachor's Dual Purpose

HK-47 theorizes that apart from defeating the mandalorians, Revan's plan of using the Mass Shadow Generator at Malachor V had another purpose. That perhaps c...

www.youtube.com

"Master, I do not believe that the Mandalorians were the true target at Malachor. I believe that the intention was to destroy the Jedi, break their will, and make them loyal to Revan. I do not know if you examined the records of the deaths on Malachor, but you cannot escape that many of the Jedi and Republic soldiers who died were not Revan's strongest supporters. Observation: I believe that Revan was 'cleaning house' at Malachor V. What ones that did not die, became Revan's allies against the Republic."

So of course, the now-light side Revan would look at that and see it as a great cost. It cost him his humanity.

Again, the Mandalorians captured only Padawans, and we didn't see how many they killed before they were caught. That, paired with Zayne defeating Mandos with ease in the beginning of TPB 10 shows how easy it was to kill Mandos for Jedi. And of course, you're ignoring the fact that after Revan got recognition from the Council, many Jedi joined him-some of whom, as HK-47 states, were not loyal to him. Looking through the lines, the truth is obvious: The Jedi Council had sent Jedi to support Revan's war effort, and Revan realized that these Jedi were more loyal to the Council or the Jedi Code than to him. So he sent them to die in Malachor V to "clean house" as it were.

No, it is not how it works.

That wasn't Cale Berkona. Officially, he just went Terentatek-hunting, and he never attained the rank of Jedi Master. Oops.

Actually, Canderous also had words of respect for the Jedi Exile and the Jedi who joined Revan:

“We thought we would triumph easily over such ‘noble’ and ‘compassionate’ leaders. Those were weaknesses we easily exploited in the past. You turned a demoralized, defeated mess into a coordinated army. You brought tactics, backbone, and above all else, victory to them.”

-Canderous Ordo, AKA Mandalore the Preserver, Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic 2, to the Jedi Exile Meetra Surik, concerning how the Jedi changed the Republic war effort.

So no, Canderous' words were about Revan AND the Jedi who joined him. And again, Revan was a product of Jedi teaching, considering his masters before this were Zhar, Kreia, and other Jedi.

Yeah, no. I read those books in the past, and most of it was whining about the Jedi and about crap they never did. From the way Traviss writes, the clones should have enjoyed Order 66 because of how bad the Jedi treated them. Instead, most clones got cold feet and only did it because they were ordered to, while some even went rogue and refused to carry out the order. Why? Because in the rest of Legends' storylines, the Jedi were great military leaders who treated their clones with respect and care.

Tales of the Jedi portrayed the Mandalorians as war-hungry monsters who were itching for a new crusade as it justified killing more people and causing violence. Mandalore the Indomitable was honorable towards Ulic Qel-Droma, but his men were monsters, especially when assaulting Republic forces, and he attacked Ulic in the first place because he was war-hungry.

KOTOR portrayed the Mandalorians as being so violent, they caused a galactic war on a scale not seen before JUST BECAUSE THEY WANTED A FIGHT. What they could have gotten in a coliseum, they decided to get by nuking whole worlds and slaughtering people. The KOTOR comics portrayed the Mandalorians nuking whole planets and having no qualms about unethical tactics like slavery and destruction of civilian homes, while the KOTOR game portrayed them as bandits and savages. Canderous was the lone Mandalorian who had honor in the first game, wanting to make something else of the Mandalorians other than having them go back to being killers again. In KOTOR 2, he's pulling his people back from the brink, but only because a Jedi told him that the Mandalorians are needed to protect the galaxy, so he's trying to get the Mandalorians back to do so. Some Mandalorians in the camp also display honor, but for the most part, they were remnants of an army that quite literally tore the galaxy apart just because they were hungry for blood and glory-which they got in spades at Malachor V. All that bloodshed, all that glory, all of it leaves nothing but an empty shell of a defeated people. Hence why Revan and Canderous tried to make the Mandalorians into galactic protectors against the looming threat of the True Sith.

TOR has the Mandos break their promise to protect the galaxy and join the very same people who manipulated them to go to war with the Republic: the True Sith Empire. The True Sith manipulate them into becoming their pawns again, helping the Sith cause mayhem and destruction across the galaxy, only for them to get their butts kicked in by smugglers and Republic starfighters after a crushing victory against a Jedi space force. Then they kept getting their butts kicked by Republic players and Zakuul automatons, meaning that aside from the Jedi, Republic grunts, smugglers, and droids got to kick the Mandalorians' asses all over the galaxy. And this was after the Sith played them like a fiddle to be their pawns once again.

TCW totally shits on the Mando culture by portraying a Mandalorian PACIFIST as the good Mando leader and having her turn her back on her people's warrior ways. Also, Ahsoka came off as a total twat who cared more about an ex-terrorist who slapped her butt once when compared to a trillion people on Coruscant who were about to get shitstomped by a robot army. Basically, the only good Mandos aside from the Pacifists are, ironically enough, the ones that go against Mandalorian law when they refuse to honor the results of a fair duel.

I'm not saying the Mandos are evil, it's just that the G-canon movies portray them as such. Legends tries to make it more gray and sometimes even had them be good, but as G-canon stands, the Mandos were just evil, plain and simple. One of them serves criminal scum, and the other was trying to kill an innocent woman campaigning for peace just because he was paid. That's not morally grey, that's evil. Plain and simple. It makes them good villains, but that's as far as good they can be.

Considering that Kace got his butt whooped by a Padawan, that doesn't really make it a good case that he's representative of what a Jedi Master would be. In fact, during the Mandalorian Wars, the Mandos DID snatch up kids from their families and homes. Mira, the bounty hunter companion of KOTOR 2, was a SLAVE. The Mandos enslaved a kid and put her on the front lines. That, and Canderous says the same during a mission on Manaan, when the Sith were trying to snatch up Selkath youth and take them away from their parents, Canderous stated that the Mandalorians did the same thing during the war, "get them when they're young and impressionable," he even says. So there's obviously some curious contradictions here, especially since KOTOR 1 and 2 explicitly state that Mandos DID snatch up kids away from their parents to turn into soldiers. Kace was probably snubbed because the Mandalorians don't like Force-users that much in their ranks, a fact Kace himself noted. That, and the Mandos supported Kace's plans to the point where they gave him ships and troops.

And no, Kace wasn't vindicated in the end, because the Republic lives on as the Alliance, which is just the same state with a different name, and the Sith/Jedi are still around as well. Meanwhile, the Legacy Era has the Mandos get their butts whooped by Stormtroopers, while the Jedi had to be beaten by an army of Sith. Kind of a massive power gap there, pal. One faction had to be wiped out by an army of elites, the other was sent packing by regular mooks.

No, it isn't ridiculous, especially since again, the Hunter isn't made to be Mandalorian. You CAN RP as a Mando if you wish, but you can tell them to shove their warrior ways up their asses, too. So again, the Hunter is an outsider who isn't Mando, who only becomes a Mando through formality. And ironically enough, when the Hunter runs into trouble, it's the Sith, not the Mandalorians, who gives them refuge and offers them a job, as well as a dish of revenge served cold against the people who wronged the Hunter.

Except again, the Hunter kills Kellian Jarro BEFORE being inducted into the Mando clans. And that's because Kellian Jarro killed a lot of Mandalorians. Which goes to show that the Mandalorians were too scared of this one Jedi, to the point where they send random mercs up against him, then reward the winner with membership among the Mandos which is nothing but a formality. Kal Skirata was adopted as a child, the Hunter was inducted as an adult AFTER the Hunter already proved to be strong. And of course, most, if not all Mandos you come across as the Hunter are inferior to the Hunter in terms of fighting power. Which means that the Mandos are way below the Hunter's league. They're not making you a member because you're worthy to join, they're asking you to join because you made the lot of them look like fools. Especially since you solved problems they couldn't, from Tarro Blood, to Kellian Jarro, to protecting the sanctity of the Great Hunt.

Then where the fuck was Mandalore when the Hunter needed help against the Republic? Darth Tormen came to the Hunter's rescue and offered them a job that led to them getting revenge. Where was Artus in all of that? NOWHERE, that's where.

Except if the Sith didn't come to the Hunter's help, the Republic would have thrown whole fleets against the Hunter and the Hunter would get killed in an Alamo-style scenario. The main reason the Hunter was safe from the Republic was because he was working with the Sith and had the Sith as backup in case the Jedi or the Republic appeared in force. Without the Sith giving the Hunter immunity and protection, the Hunter would get swarmed by Republic troops the moment they show up in any civilized planet. But as a Sith agent, the Hunter was supported by Imperial Intelligence, Imperial diplomats, and the Empire's army.

You do realize every faction responds by just sending one agent against those robots, right? Be they the Sith, the Jedi, or the Republic.

Novels don't tell the whole story either. That, and the encyclopedia didn't explain everything. In fact, most of what they had there ended up being filler that barely counted after the vanilla game. In the books, Darth Malgus appeared to be rising as the face of the Empire, but he becomes a raid boss for both sides, for instance.

Lucas' vision for the galaxy has most of what you say about the Mandos be thrown in the garbage, pal. Down to the point where the only good Mandos are the ones who turned their backs on their warrior ways and became pacifist hippies. Also, despite not being as long-lasting as the Mandos, Imperial Intelligence and the Republic Special Forces were stronger/smarter than the Mandos in their time. The Sith feared Republic special forces generals, with Darth Baras even calling them "the Empire's most accomplished adversaries," while Imperial Intelligence played the Mandalorians like a fiddle.

TOR's story shows otherwise: the Mandalorians accomplish FUCKING NOTHING in the main story plot despite having an army and the Sith backing them up, while the Special Forces soldiers not only take out the greatest general in the Empire, but also an Imperial superweapon that can take down ships in hyperspace. Meanwhile the Mandos are busy getting their butts kicked by Republic players to do anything of note, and outside of a few characters like Torian and Spar, they don't amount to much in the game. A Mandalorian Army joining the True Sith should have spelled the doom of the Republic and the Jedi, especially since the Republic in the previous wars struggled to fight against the Neo-Crusaders and the Sith back then when they faced them one at a time. But instead, the Republic wins so hard that Darth Marr tells you in the Makeb DLC that the Empire will collapse within a year, despite the Mandos having fought for the Empire. Now that's a joke if I've ever seen one. Looks like the Mandos are all talk in TOR.

G-canon shows us an extensive look on Mandos vs. Jedi. The Jedi win most up-front fights so long as they're not taken by surprise. The Mandalorians get support in fighting Jedi, be it a starfighter or Jabba's armies, and they still can't win. And of course, the purest combat between the two was face-to-face with no starships to escape to: Windu vs. Jango. I'll give you ten seconds to figure out how it went. You keep hanging onto Jango killing Coleman Trevor, as if it's some kind of legendary fucking feat, even though taking someone by surprise and killing them is the oldest trick in the book. It wasn't even a fair fight since the guy was aiming for Dooku but got surprised in a split-second. A distracted enemy is easy to take out-just ask Boba when Han stabbed him in the back. But in straight-up fights, like Kenobi vs. Jango or Windu vs. Jango, Fett lost every time. He was forced to retreat from one foe despite having starfighter backup and artillery, and he got decapitated by the latter in a straight-up fight. And of course, Jango was the leader of the Mandalorians at the time. And he still lost like a punk TWICE in the span of one movie. So yeah, the average Jedi IS superior to the average Mandalorian. Just ask the Mandos who died at Galidraan.

The one Jedi who loses to his muggle girlfriend spends the first part of the tenth KOTOR comic TPB defeating Mandos without killing them, and spent most of it outfoxing the Mandos. Not a good picture for you to paint, pal.

Yes, they can. The Jedi even threaten to kick out members who can't live up to their standards.

Mediocre when compared to the heroes, yes, but still far better than the average Mando mooks.

Again, the Hunter only killed the Sith Emperor with the help of other Force-sensitives, like the man's father, wife, and children. And of course, this isn't a mark of Mandos being the kind of badasses that are the only ones who can do this, aside from Jedi and Sith characters, Imperial Intelligence, Smugglers, non-Mandalorian Hunters, and Troopers can kill the Emperor too. You could take that argument you're making now and apply it to the smugglers. One can say that smugglers are the most badass people in Star Wars, since one of them killed the strongest Sith in history. See how silly that sounds?

Doesn't matter. Orgus Din proved himself stronger than Zym by defeating the guy who killed Zym. Plus, Anakin defeated Dooku despite the fact that Yoda could not. So even in G-canon, the strongest Jedi don't necessarily wind up being the leaders. Otherwise, Anakin killing Dooku ought to have earned him the title of Jedi Master. They promote people based on loyalty, not power levels alone.

Again, as HK-47 stated, Revan sacrificed those soldiers in Malachor V not because he wanted the Mandalorians dead, he killed them because they weren't obedient towards him. Killing the Mandalorians was just a bonus.

Didn't the duel take place during the Battle of Malachor V? Or was it after Mandalore lost most of his forces and had to resort to 1v1 against Revan?

The Republic forces barely had armor and their blasters were nowhere near as strong as those of the Mandos. The Mandos had beskar and improved blasters. Even taking out the videogame context, it should have ended with the Mandalorians bathing in the blood of Republic soldiers. I mean, that's how technologically superior forces in battle usually performed. Knights with more advanced armor and weapons can kill hordes of enemy soldiers with less-advanced weapons and armor, down to the point where their squires have to clean their armor after having them get drenched in blood. WW2 is a bad example to bring up, because neither side had better armor (lol uniforms) and their guns were at the same level of firepower. Meanwhile, Mandalorian armor and blasters make those of the Republic forces' during the Mandalorian Wars look primitive. And yet the Mandos lost horribly, despite having the clear technological advantage, whereas in the past, more advanced armies from Europe were able to conquer armies that were tens, if not hundreds of thousands strong, despite the Europeans themselves fielding smaller armies. Why? Because they had the edge in weapons and armor. The Republic forces vs. the Mandalorians should have been a repast of the Aztecs and Incas vs. the Conquistadores, instead, the latter lost horribly. And the main reason they even got away with victories early in the war was because the Jedi had cold feet. If the Jedi Council jumped into the war feet-first from the beginning, it may have turned out rather differently.

So basically, Sun Tzu says that the Mandalorians should have avoided battle with the Republic altogether? Wise advice. Maybe they ought to have taken it.

The official articles say 300 Mandalorians were at Galidraan. Nothing says there were less than 20.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4062PFnhqhw

"Ah, the blast helm of a Mandalore warrior. Something I've not seen since I was a Jedi. I must have cut down 20 of your kind myself."

Considering that Silas was one of Fett's close companions, maybe he's stronger in mind than the average Mando?

Spar, also known as Mandalore the Resurrector, basically tried to act in the same vein as Jango Fett. Even though at the time, Boba Fett was a mere child, and everyone knows this. So what, did Boba Fett suddenly grow several years and became a man, even though by all rights, he's between ten to thirteen? Yeah, real convincing. If Mandos actually thought he was Boba, then that makes them all the more dumber.

Not really. According to Lucas, T-canon is one rung above C-canon. And of course, it retcons certain events from the movies, as well. That, and Lucas saw TCW as canon, something everyone admits, so like it or not, it's not an alternate universe, when both Legends and Disney canon has it in their repertoire.

Apologies for the double post, but I really just want to get this over and done with and go to sleep.

Spoiler: MANDO MADNESS XI THE LAST MANDO

Yeah, no. Again, if you actually looked at the reactions of people who watch the movies and ONLY the movies, they looked at the Fetts as if they were losers. Yes, there were some who liked them. But most saw gaudier Stormtroopers who failed at fighting the Jedi. In fact, I had to defend their honor more than once to casuals who know nothing but the films, recommending to them that they read the comics or play the games. In fact, most of the memes making the Fetts look like losers comes from said movie-only audiences. Most of these guys probably don't even know what a Mandalorian is before TCW told them.

Ah, more excuses. Again, Windu basically just said that their ability to use the Force is diminished. As in, OVERALL. Not their vision for the future, not their ability to sense things, but their ABILITY TO USE THE FORCE. Which counts for everything, from combat feats to telling the future. Which again, explains why KOTOR and Tales of the Jedi have stronger Jedi than what was shown in the Prequels: the Prequel-era Jedi are openly admitting that they've grown weaker and that the Dark Lord of the Sith knows.

The fact that Canderous praises the Jedi doesn't really matter to me. People praise the Jedi all the time. What made Canderous special is that among the Jedi fanboys, he can gut Sith for a living, which makes him worthy of sitting among the Jedi and hanging around with them. There's Mandalorians who fight Jedi with tricks and surprise attacks, and there's Mandalorians who gut Sith in fair, 1v1 duels while looking them straight in the eye. Those are the Mandos who have my respect.

Not really. I respect the Fetts as villains because of the EU, but G-canon drives them through the muck and portrays them as Team Rocket in Space.

I'm pretty sure my avatar is a clear indication of who I'm a fan of. Hint: it's not the Jedi.

Except there's nothing in the KOTOR comics that says that wasn't Beskar. In fact, Tales of the Jedi had Beskar be used as a building material for Freedon Nadd's tomb. Why wouldn't the Mandalorians be using it, when even back then it was known as Mandalorian Iron? And of course, beskar is resistant to lightsabers and blasters, but that doesn't make it invulnerable to them.

And of course, the fact that there's enough gaps in a Mando's armor means that Jedi can easily kill them.

Partial body armor is useful if you don't have multiple gaps in the armor. Mando armor has so many gaps that HEMA instructors would be throwing such suits out of disgust at all the gaps.

Eldon Ax doesn't even reach the top 10 angriest Sith in the EU, let alone the top 50. Fucking Darth Sion is angrier than her to the point where his anger literally keeps him alive.

And no, it's not just some random act of Divine Intervention. Sith Marauders by practice pump their body full of Dark Side energies to make it stronger. That's right: there's a whole class of Sith devoted just to doing that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3997HZuWjk

This shows that longbows can pierce through plate armor. And longbows weren't stronger than crossbows, not at all.

Er, no. The staff as a whole is designed to deflect lightsabers from the tips to the middle. And there was no prolonged contact, Grievous merely smashed through them in one blow. If that can happen to phrik staffs, then Mando armor can also be vulnerable.

Another Mandalorian gets cut through the torso by Raana Tey despite wearing armor right before she attacks Zayne in a frenzy. In some of the pages of Open Seasons, Mandos get shot through the torso where the armor is present, and die nonetheless, as was the case with Jaster Mereel. Again, it seems that you have selective memory concerning these things.........

Actually, I was considered a member of the National Honors Society. LOL.

Except again, in a war, the word "hero" takes on a new meaning. A hero is one who kills the enemy for his liege, since that would be considered heroic by society. And again, name me a good separatist from the films. Please, do. I'm tired of waiting here while you keep insinuating that there's good guys on both sides in the films.

Lucas' context is the one I've kept. Especially since I quote the man and explore what he does in his movies. Meanwhile, you keep sticking to C-canon works. So if anything, you're the one ignoring Lucas here.

The Yuuzhan Vong Wars killed 365 trillion people. In essence, 1/3 of 1% of the galactic populace which is at 100 quadrillion. Not even 5% of 10%. Meanwhile, the New Sith Wars covered the galaxy with blood and infighting for 1000 years. I'm pretty sure that would at least kill maybe 3% of the galactic populace.

Sith Warriors weren't cannon-fodder, you idiot. Stormtroopers are cannon fodder. Sith warriors aren't, they're the elite forces of the enemy. Also, the Vong aren't in the height of their powers, so I'm sure an army of Sith can easily slice through the gaps of their armors and kill them. Meanwhile the Mandos at the time were sent packing by Stormtroopers. It took the Sith to take out the Jedi, meanwhile the Mandos ran away from plastic boys. "Retreat in good order" is a euphemism for "we got our asses kicked so badly we ran away with our tails between our legs."

 

[Getting tard comed]

considering what we know about jarjar and ruin's writing I can't really blame her directly, same way hayden christensen got a lot of shit for his performance for that dialogue lucas shat out. as I said with a better script a lot of her action acting would be outright overlooked, if people even noticed in the first place.

Don't insult my boy Hayden like that. He, unlike Ridley, is a decent actor. He atleast tried with his performance in the prequels. He took some risks with his choices and they didn't pan out. There's a complete story arc there for Anikan in his performance whether you like that arc and his performance or not.

If that's not enough for you, watch him in Shattered Glass and Losers and compare it to the sad performance she gave in Murder on the Orient Express. Her issue is not the director. She's a bland, non-interesting actress who isn't hot enough to warrant being in a film on that alone.

 

[White Devil]

Don't insult my boy Hayden like that. He, unlike Ridley, is a decent actor. He atleast tried with his performance in the prequels. He took some risks with his choices and they didn't pan out. There's a complete story arc there for Anikan in his performance whether you like that arc and his performance or not.

Furthermore, Hayden was very smart with investing his SW money and never has to work again if he doesn't want to. How much of the Star Wars cast can you say that for besides Harrison Ford?

 

[Miller]

Maybe she'll do an OnlyFans.

Well she going to need a lot of money since she loves to powder her nose.

 

[RiceofSkywalker]

literally who? I mean
>watching dubs

but seriously, most animu VAs probably work for peanuts, which isn't probably the reason daisy got into acting in the first place. otoh her celebrity status might allow her to get into it easier since the whole industry is gated as fuck to the point it's borderline incestous with the same handful of people voicing almost every character.

I agree, being a VA is a shoe too small to fit most who already made some big bucks in Hollywood. It's ok as a side gig or if you're passionate about it and talented enough (like Hamill), but even if you're willing to do the whole dog and pony show at conventions where VAs make their money, it's not going to be nearly enough to sustain that Hollywood lifestyle she's used to.

 

[jspit]

We've been through this already.
Galidraan will never be the "glorious disaster" for the Mandalorians you're so desperate to paint it as.
The True Mandalorians were massacred almost to a man.
End of story.
The Jedi regretting the loss of life, nice moving of the goalposts by the way, isn't remotely the same as the galaxy shaking in terror at the ferocity of the Mandalorians and wondering how the Jedi will ever recover.
By the way your definition of a Pyrrhic Victory is rather odd.
If completely destroying the enemy and leaving them with no chance of victory is Pyrrhic then Alesia was a Pyrrhic Victory for Ceasar because hey the Gauls killed quite a few Legionaries before they went down.
The True Mandalorians ceased to exist in the span of like 20 minutes.
Killing a few dozen Jedi, who they outnumbered by a substantial amount, in an order of 10,000+ does nothing to change that.
I have to wonder if you're even reading the same books that everyone else is.

No gayz. Seriously. The Jedi slaughtering you all in fights and being the stooges of the Sith is totally awesome. Queen Karen totally was being followed by others, even the ones that were writing Mandos more than 10 years before she appeared!

lel it's not like "she's a kenobi" was one of the loudest fan theories trying to explain her mary sue-ness right after TFA. that "idea" is literally 4 years old by now.



considering what we know about jarjar and ruin's writing I can't really blame her directly, same way hayden christensen got a lot of shit for his performance for that dialogue lucas shat out. as I said with a better script a lot of her action acting would be outright overlooked, if people even noticed in the first place.

as for VA, while a lot of them are overpaid (thanks to the guild) it probably won't be enough, nor have the glamour lot of people go into acting for. I mean, what's even out there? the rare high-profile disney/dreamworks animation, lot of shitty kids show or anime.
if it's about the craft itself they usually tend to go with theater.

Definitely, Hayden's done other stuff and been solid in it. He was a kid doing what the great George Lucas told him.

 

[Getting tard comed]

Well she going to need a lot of money since she loves to powder her nose.

Nani?