The Abortion Debate Containment Thread - Put abortion sperging here.

[Eris!]

So there's another option, then. What is it?

Not necessarily.
I explained why not here:

Imagine this:

You are dying of thirst in a desert. You crawl through the sands to my water store. You barge in and demand water. I say "No, not unless you pay, this is a store." You leave my store and crawl back out into the desert where you die.

I did not force you to die. I had no hand in your death. The desert killed you. I did nothing to you.

 

[Samson Pumpkin Jr.]

So if you were to be born with harlequin ichthyosis, you'd rather have to live for 2 years in constant, horrible pain before you die from infection rather than just being put out of your misery before you even have a thought? Not me

people with genetic defects aren't human so you can just kill them, that's what you do

 

[Eris!]

people with genetic defects aren't human so you can just kill them, that's what you do

This is at least an argument. What genetic standard are we using for human? Are niggers human?

 

[Lemmingwise]

Most of the people I see who are against abortion are men who also think food-stamps and single mother's welfare should be cut--What gives?

There are two reasons for this.

One, we live in such a polarised world that if you know someone's position on gun ownership, you know their position on welfare, abortion, police and so on. There have been women for and against abortion in this thread.
The polarisation is leading to (more than ordinary) tribalism, which is leading to conforming to that tribe. This is necessary for protection, as people lose their livelyhood for saying the wrong thing.

Two, a lot of people are toadies who haven't really thought about challenging status quo, and women are more likely to belong to this group then men. If female suffrage had been put to a (female) vote it would not have passed according to polls at the time. If abortion had been put to a (female) vote in the 60s it would not have passed either. Men are more likely to be contrarian (whether right or not). Women are more likely to aligned with status quo (whether right or not).

That's just a difference, on average,to inclinations.

So it's not surprising that two beliefs cling together, it's not surprising that slightly more men are challenging status quo on both issues.

Here's a nice question for all those who brought the argument of "anti-abortion people are terrible, because they both want to force people to have their baby and not give them welfare from the state"

If that position is hypocritical, then your position of both wanting welfare AND abortion is no less hypocritical, because if abortion is alright, no mother would need welfare. Why aren't you alright with cutting just one of these?

I think the answer is that it is brought up not because it's hypocritical (whether it is or not), but because it prevents people changing their mind. It's persuasive to keep people from changing mind. Because its a way to say "don't listen to them, look, they don't agree with this other issue, they are not your tribe".

I think that's the answer to the question, but if you think there's a better answer I'd love to hear it.

 

[Bad Take Crucifier]

Here's a nice question for all those who brought the argument of "anti-abortion people are terrible, because they both want to force people to have their baby and not give them welfare from the state"

If that position is hypocritical, then your position of both wanting welfare AND abortion is no less hypocritical, because if abortion is alright, no mother would need welfare. Why aren't you alright with cutting just one if these?

Good point. Because of tribalism, people REALLY want to have their cake and eat it too. As you say, abortion rights actually technically justify less welfare, while making abortion illegal technically justifies more welfare.

Except these things contradict the leftist and conservative camps respectively, so the conflict never stops.

Me personally, I'm not morally against the idea of welfare, but I don't think a welfare state is a great idea right now because the United States government is in a fucking shitload of debt. Abortion is an actual right though (involves your own body), welfare is not a right (requires redistributing other's wealth and work--not your body).

 

[Eris!]

Abortion is an actual right though (involves your own body), welfare is not a right (requires redistributing other's wealth and work--not your body).

Abortion involves your fetus' body. Specifically, it involves the destruction of your fetus' body.

 

[Bad Take Crucifier]

Abortion involves your fetus' body. Specifically, it involves the destruction of your fetus' body.

And?

 

[Lemmingwise]

Good point. Because of tribalism, people REALLY want to have their cake and eat it too

I think you only grasped half my point.

Because the second half of your sentence is the opposite of what I'm saying.

People aren't pampered and spoiled. On an intellectual basis, moral basis, people are repressed. We are ceasing to even be able pretend to have room for civil discussion. It's not because of tribalism that people want their cake and eat it too, it's because culturally the worldwide left wants to have its cake and eat it too (much like before Obama the political right did, at least in the US), even if that means further tribalism. The relationship between the spoiled attitude and tribalism is inverse.

The wanting cake and eating it means that in order to get their way, they command followers to fire and unfriend wrongthinkers. Of course much like whipping posts to slaves, it's not so much about the one being punished, they'll harbor deep resentment and eternal rebellion. It's about the example to those that don't want to be whipped.

Now we've had that attitude for over a decade and we're running out of people to punish, so the next on the chopping block are people like Rowling, Haidt, Pinker, McGinnes. Moderates and mild right or left centrists.

When there is no center, in 5-10 years, there is only war left. Cold, hot, civil. We'll see. But without a bridge there is no discussion. And without discussion, there is only war.

I do know that the side that doesn't abort will have more people in it (less abortions), so in the long run it wouldn't be a fight between left and right, but between christians and muslims.

But to get back to the point it's not tribalism leading to being spoiled. It's being spoiled (and refusal to negotiate) that is leading to tribalism.

 

[Bad Take Crucifier]

I think you only grasped half my point.

I got your point, we just don't agree. We're not the same.

 

[Lemmingwise]

I got your point, we just don't agree. We're not the same.

Could you explain why you think tribalism would lead to being spoiled rather than the inverse?

 

[Bad Take Crucifier]

Could you explain why you think tribalism would lead to being spoiled rather than the inverse?

No? That's not my argument, that's your argument. All I said was hating abortion and welfare at the same time is contradictory, and that abortion is a right.

 

[Lemmingwise]

Because of tribalism, people REALLY want to have their cake and eat it too

No? That's not my argument, that's your argument. All I said was hating abortion and welfare at the same time is contradictory, and that abortion is a right.

I would have ordered these quotes the other way around if I could, but the new UI isn't letting me.

What did you mean with your sentence on tribalism, if not to say that tribalism leads to people acting spoiled?

 

[Bad Take Crucifier]

What did you mean with your sentence on tribalism, if not to say that tribalism leads to people acting spoiled?

Here's a nice question for all those who brought the argument of "anti-abortion people are terrible, because they both want to force people to have their baby and not give them welfare from the state"

If that position is hypocritical, then your position of both wanting welfare AND abortion is no less hypocritical, because if abortion is alright, no mother would need welfare. Why aren't you alright with cutting just one of these?

It means what it means

 

[Bunny Tracks]

We've gone from sperging about abortion, to sperging about each other, to sperging about abortion again, to sperging about each other again, to sperging about tribalism of all things.

Look, at the end of the day, this debate will never be solved.

Even if abortion is outlawed it will still happen, and with even more heartbreak, and consequences than it already comes with. If it ever does become outlawed, let's hope it's after the direly needed reforms to our foster-care, childcare, healthcare, and the all the other systems that effect the upbringing, and raising of a child are already made.

 

[Bad Take Crucifier]

Abortion is pretty sad for everyone involved and (save for some real degenerates), most people don't want to do it and most women reeeeeally hope they never have to have one. Still, it should be legal to get one for a wide variety of reasons. Contradictorily, the conservatives tend to be against welfare despite the fact that many women would just become single mothers and definitely need it if they have no access to abortion.

We already have a ton of single moms in the world who "chose life" and conservatives tend to fucking shit on them, but not the deadbeat dads who can't keep their dicks in their fucking pants. Wanting to have it both ways is pretty silly. If people really want abortion rates to go down, they better be ready to vote for massive welfare benefits for single moms so all those precious babies can be saved from murder. Reeeeing at abortion while not cutting at the root of the problem (poverty) is complete autism.

 

[Bunny Tracks]

We already have a ton of single moms in the world who "chose life" and conservatives tend to fucking shit on them, but not the deadbeat dads who can't keep their dicks in their fucking pants.

I also find this point very hypocritical.

Everyone screeches at women to keep their legs closed, but no one ever seems to screech at men to stop putting their dicks into anything everything that has a pulse. If I had a son who knocked up some broad who wanted to keep the baby, I'd make sure that boy didn't skip town, and if he did, I'd drag his ass back kicking and screaming to face the consequences of his actions.

It takes two to tango, dumbass. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

 

[Bad Take Crucifier]

It takes two to tango, dumbass.

The problem with suggesting that we should hold the men accountable for pregnancies is that it would require Team Anti-Abortion to REEE at the men. We all know they want to REEEE at women only.

 

[Bunny Tracks]

The problem with suggesting that we should hold the men accountable for pregnancies is that it would require Team Anti-Abortion to REEE at the men. We all know they want to REEEE at women only.

I don't know about that. Women have always gotten the short end of the stick when it comes to these things throughout history. I think it's just one of those fucked up, backwards beliefs from a bygone era that managed to stick around into modern times despite the fact that it should've been tossed into the trash a long time ago.

I don't think Pro-Life people are anti-women, and I do sympathize with their cause. I just think abortion is a necessary evil, and trying to outlaw it won't fix anything, and will just make everything worse.

Regardless, I still think both parties should be held accountable. Having only one being held responsible, regardless of who that party is, is just fucking retarded, and an inexcusable double-standard. So long as both parties were consenting adults, they should both have to face the consequences.

 

[Eris!]

All I said was hating abortion and welfare at the same time is contradictory

Contradictorily, the conservatives tend to be against welfare despite the fact that many women would just become single mothers and definitely need it if they have no access to abortion.

There is no contradiction. The two ideas do not conflict.

And?

And it is not a right. It is violating someone else's body, not autonomy over your own.

We already have a ton of single moms in the world who "chose life" and conservatives tend to fucking shit on them, but not the deadbeat dads who can't keep their dicks in their fucking pants.

Both are probably pieces of shit.

If people really want abortion rates to go down, they better be ready to vote for massive welfare benefits for single moms so all those precious babies can be saved from murder.

Or we can forbid abortion and also give them no welfare. I see no reason why we can't do this.

Reeeeing at abortion while not cutting at the root of the problem (poverty) is complete autism.

The root of the problem is irrelevant to me. I don't care about solving a murderer's problems that lead them to murder. If a bread thief needs bread to feed his family, I'm not going to feed his family so he stops stealing bread, I'm going to cut off his hand for being a bread thief. I care about the fact that they want to murder someone. Don't murder your child. Simple as.

I just think abortion is a necessary evil,

Are there other kinds of murder that you also think are necessary evils, or is it just infanticide that's necessary?

Abortion is pretty sad for everyone involved

This doesn't make any sense. If it's just a clump of cells with no moral value why would it be sad?
Do you feel sad when you freeze off a wart?

 

[Lemmingwise]

It means what it means

It probably means you wouldn't know how to explain it, perhaps because there isn't a sensible explanation. Which is a shame, because I thought we were getting somewhere.

The problem with suggesting that we should hold the men accountable for pregnancies

Men are already accountable for pregnancies in two ways. First, the father, whether they want the child or not, they have to pay for it. Even if it is proved to have been conceived illicitly (condom from trash) or rape of a man (statutory or otherwise).

Second all men ar fiscally responsible, if the father can't fulfill the needs. On average over a lifetime men pay taxes, whereas on average women receive benefits from the state (studies have been done). Which means that the welfare comes out of men's pockets (and at least for every non-US country, the cost for the abortion too).

The only time a man isn't accountable, is when there is an abortion. Something that he has no say in and no recourse to his child's life getting ended, when he might have been willing to take sole burden of parental responsibilities for it.

We've gone from sperging about abortion, to sperging about each other, to sperging about abortion again, to sperging about each other again, to sperging about tribalism of all things.

Look, at the end of the day, this debate will never be solved.

Your analysis of flow of discussion is incomplete.

We've gone back to "this debate is pointless!" a couple of times too and it is probably the least productive part of this thread.

no one ever seems to screech at men to stop putting their dicks into anything everything that has a pulse

First, yes that happens plenty. In mainstream daytime TV.

Second, there isn't the same need, because legally they have no say over an abortion, so it's irrelevant to the topic of abortion. The people that defend abortion assert it as a woman's right. The only way to change it is to challenge that and therefor the only way to challenge the right is to assert that women should be more responsible.

That is sisyphean task in a mostly feminist society. It may well be pointless as asserted. Even if it is, it shouldn't be.