Fallout series

[Exceptionally Exceptional]

You know, I've always found the accusation that Bethesda "didn't understand" the Brotherhood of Steel kinda funny. Because quite obviously they did given that the Outcasts exist and are basically the same tech hoarding assholes we see in NV. To the point where they even have a fucking shootout because one of them doesn't want to hand over some tech to an outsider even when that outsider was vital to obtaining it.
One thing some people fail to remember is that Roger Maxson actually did have a "noble" purpose in founding the BoS and collecting up our technology. He wanted to rebuild the world. Hell, in the early days of the Brotherhood they actually DID help people using their resources, but as time progressed voices like Maxson's would become a minority as the Brotherhood adopted more isolationist views and considered helping people a secondary consideration.
It could be argued that with the leadership of Elder Owyn Lyons came a resurgence of Maxsonian principals and ideals, the belief that the Brotherhood's mission is to protect humanity, preserve our technology, and prepare for the reestablishment of our civilization.

If you think of the Brotherhood as a religion, Owyn Lyons was something of a "Second Coming" of Maxson.

 

[LORD IMPERATOR]

You know, I've always found the accusation that Bethesda "didn't understand" the Brotherhood of Steel kinda funny. Because quite obviously they did given that the Outcasts exist and are basically the same tech hoarding assholes we see in NV. To the point where they even have a fucking shootout because one of them doesn't want to hand over some tech to an outsider even when that outsider was vital to obtaining it.
One thing some people fail to remember is that Roger Maxson actually did have a "noble" purpose in founding the BoS and collecting up our technology. He wanted to rebuild the world. Hell, in the early days of the Brotherhood they actually DID help people using their resources, but as time progressed voices like Maxson's would become a minority as the Brotherhood adopted more isolationist views and considered helping people a secondary consideration.
It could be argued that with the leadership of Elder Owyn Lyons came a resurgence of Maxsonian principals and ideals, the belief that the Brotherhood's mission is to protect humanity, preserve our technology, and prepare for the reestablishment of our civilization.

If you think of the Brotherhood as a religion, Owyn Lyons was something of a "Second Coming" of Maxson.

Exactly. Bethesda made it perfectly clear that the Lyons Brotherhood are heretics in the eyes of the western chapters. The Outcasts only drove that point home further: if you want to work with the REAL Brotherhood of Steel instead of Lyons' boy scouts, the Outcasts are there to provide that need. You can even RP as one of them, especially since if you give Protector Casdin enough pieces of tech, he recognizes you as a friend of the Outcasts and he lets you keep their armor. You can also keep coming back to that Brotherhood Outcast outpost from the Anchorage DLC as a repair station with Specialist Olin still milling about. Then you can keep roaming the wastes, decked in Outcast Armor, killing everything from raiders to feral ghouls and super mutants while picking up useful bits and pieces of tech. And whether you get laser rifles from Talon Company or Advanced Power Armor MK II suits from the Enclave forces, you can grab those pieces of tech and report back to Casdin so he can give you stims or ammo as payment for these pieces of tech, while you report to Specialist Olin and the underground Outcast Outpost so she can fix your armor if it gets too banged up. Ironically enough, in a game that primarily features a rogue Brotherhood cell, you can still RP as a member of the REAL Brotherhood of Steel and be the same kind of tech-hoarding asshole that the NV Brotherhood of Steel is.

I'm sure if Roger Maxson was still alive by the time of Fallout 3, he'd approve of Owyn Lyons' actions and actively send the Brotherhood to war against the Enclave. Especially since he broke off from the US Army in the first place because he thought that some politician will come crawling out of some vault and repeat the cycle of destruction. Getting the news that there's a new US President whose forces are bossing over and shooting at the locals would rile him up and make him declare war on the Enclave, seeing them as everything he despised with the US government.

 

[c-no]

You know, I've always found the accusation that Bethesda "didn't understand" the Brotherhood of Steel kinda funny. Because quite obviously they did given that the Outcasts exist and are basically the same tech hoarding assholes we see in NV. To the point where they even have a fucking shootout because one of them doesn't want to hand over some tech to an outsider even when that outsider was vital to obtaining it.
One thing some people fail to remember is that Roger Maxson actually did have a "noble" purpose in founding the BoS and collecting up our technology. He wanted to rebuild the world. Hell, in the early days of the Brotherhood they actually DID help people using their resources, but as time progressed voices like Maxson's would become a minority as the Brotherhood adopted more isolationist views and considered helping people a secondary consideration.
It could be argued that with the leadership of Elder Owyn Lyons came a resurgence of Maxsonian principals and ideals, the belief that the Brotherhood's mission is to protect humanity, preserve our technology, and prepare for the reestablishment of our civilization.

If you think of the Brotherhood as a religion, Owyn Lyons was something of a "Second Coming" of Maxson.

Far as I can remember seeing the shit Fallout 3 could get, people complaining about the BOS in that being "lawful good knights in shining armor" was pretty dumb compared to other complaints when it really needed a simple look at Lyons compared to the Outcast. Sure one could say Lyons was not like the "Real BOS" but then again, it's the BOS under the leadership of an old man who saw shit differently along with the fact that he knew his numbers would dwindle if he didn't recruit locals. The Outcast was all that was needed in showing they weren't entirely do-gooders since they at least wanted to remain as "eternal douchebags" that would take any tech you had while insulting you as if you were just some dumb tribal banging rocks.

Exactly. Bethesda made it perfectly clear that the Lyons Brotherhood are heretics in the eyes of the western chapters. The Outcasts only drove that point home further: if you want to work with the REAL Brotherhood of Steel instead of Lyons' boy scouts, the Outcasts are there to provide that need. You can even RP as one of them, especially since if you give Protector Casdin enough pieces of tech, he recognizes you as a friend of the Outcasts and he lets you keep their armor. You can also keep coming back to that Brotherhood Outcast outpost from the Anchorage DLC as a repair station with Specialist Olin still milling about. Then you can keep roaming the wastes, decked in Outcast Armor, killing everything from raiders to feral ghouls and super mutants while picking up useful bits and pieces of tech. And whether you get laser rifles from Talon Company or Advanced Power Armor MK II suits from the Enclave forces, you can grab those pieces of tech and report back to Casdin so he can give you stims or ammo as payment for these pieces of tech, while you report to Specialist Olin and the underground Outcast Outpost so she can fix your armor if it gets too banged up. Ironically enough, in a game that primarily features a rogue Brotherhood cell, you can still RP as a member of the REAL Brotherhood of Steel and be the same kind of tech-hoarding asshole that the NV Brotherhood of Steel is.

I'm sure if Roger Maxson was still alive by the time of Fallout 3, he'd approve of Owyn Lyons' actions and actively send the Brotherhood to war against the Enclave. Especially since he broke off from the US Army in the first place because he thought that some politician will come crawling out of some vault and repeat the cycle of destruction. Getting the news that there's a new US President whose forces are bossing over and shooting at the locals would rile him up and make him declare war on the Enclave, seeing them as everything he despised with the US government.

Considering that bit about Maxson, I wouldn't be surprised since his character was pretty much "defect from the US after finding out the FEV experiments and seeing the horrors of a fresh post-apocalyptic wasteland." Only thing to drive it further is, had he been alive longer to see his last grandson become an elder, he'd be at some odds in how Arthur would run the Brotherhood in throwing away the actions of Owyn Lyons.

 

[Imperial Citizen]

Far as I can remember seeing the shit Fallout 3 could get, people complaining about the BOS in that being "lawful good knights in shining armor" was pretty dumb compared to other complaints when it really needed a simple look at Lyons compared to the Outcast. Sure one could say Lyons was not like the "Real BOS" but then again, it's the BOS under the leadership of an old man who saw shit differently along with the fact that he knew his numbers would dwindle if he didn't recruit locals. The Outcast was all that was needed in showing they weren't entirely do-gooders since they at least wanted to remain as "eternal douchebags" that would take any tech you had while insulting you as if you were just some dumb tribal banging rocks.


Considering that bit about Maxson, I wouldn't be surprised since his character was pretty much "defect from the US after finding out the FEV experiments and seeing the horrors of a fresh post-apocalyptic wasteland." Only thing to drive it further is, had he been alive longer to see his last grandson become an elder, he'd be at some odds in how Arthur would run the Brotherhood in throwing away the actions of Owyn Lyons.

I believe that the backlash to FO3’s BoS comes from the simplistic narrative that was based around FO3’s karma system. The LW’s dialogue choices were to be an unrepentant cunt, a money hungry mercenary, or Jesus Christ with a machine gun. With the BoS being noble knights, playing as an evil or neutral character doesn’t mesh.

 

[Mola Ram]

I believe that the backlash to FO3’s BoS comes from the simplistic narrative that was based around FO3’s karma system. The LW’s dialogue choices were to be an unrepentant cunt, a money hungry mercenary, or Jesus Christ with a machine gun. With the BoS being noble knights, playing as an evil or neutral character doesn’t mesh.

There's also the issue that Bethesda went for the most recognizable stuff from the franchise without much worrying about whether or not it made sense. The Brotherhood of Steel having a significant presence on the East Coast was somewhat hard to believe, considering that as far as the series had established they barely made it to Chicago. Other stuff like that included the Enclave, FEV, and bottlecaps as currency.

 

[Imperial Citizen]

There's also the issue that Bethesda went for the most recognizable stuff from the franchise without much worrying about whether or not it made sense. The Brotherhood of Steel having a significant presence on the East Coast was somewhat hard to believe, considering that as far as the series had established they barely made it to Chicago. Other stuff like that included the Enclave, FEV, and bottlecaps as currency.

Thinking about it, I can buy the Enclave being in DC as Raven Rock is as close as you can get to a real life vault and it is designed to house the US government in case of a nuclear attack. Sincerely the Enclave is the remnants of the US government it is logical that they would exist there. Also, it would not make logistical sense for all of the non-mutated humans to be housed on one oil rig in the Pacific Ocean, especially considering the size of the US.

FEV was a bullshit excuse to have super mutants, but at least Bethesda gave them variety in the form of Bethemonths.

And bottle caps; I actually like them from a thematic standpoint. Yeah it doesn’t make sense but it is something unique for Fallout’s setting. Plus where the fuck did Fallout 2’s gold coins come from?

 

[Mola Ram]

Thinking about it, I can buy the Enclave being in DC as Raven Rock is as close as you can get to a real life vault and it is designed to house the US government in case of a nuclear attack. Sincerely the Enclave is the remnants of the US government it is logical that they would exist there. Also, it would not make logistical sense for all of the non-mutated humans to be housed on one oil rig in the Pacific Ocean, especially considering the size of the US.

FEV was a bullshit excuse to have super mutants, but at least Bethesda gave them variety in the form of Bethemonths.

And bottle caps; I actually like them from a thematic standpoint. Yeah it doesn’t make sense but it is something unique for Fallout’s setting. Plus where the fuck did Fallout 2’s gold coins come from?

Yeah, to be fair the Enclave in Raven Rock makes more sense than the oil rig ever did. But it did feel like something of a rehash.

FEV, I dunno, I liked that Super Mutants were essentially dying off by the time of Fallout 2. The Behemoths were cool, though. Overlords, too; always a good reason to keep a few Nuka Grenades handy.

I thought Fallout 2's money was implied to be NCR currency. The bottlecap thing I dislike because they went to some effort to explain them in the original game: they were backed by The Hub's water merchants. It made sense that as society rebuilt itself, such crude currency would fall by the wayside -- and what are the chances that isolated parts of the country would turn to the same thing? Hell, at least Fallout Tactics swapped out the bottlecaps for ring tabs.

 

[LORD IMPERATOR]

I believe that the backlash to FO3’s BoS comes from the simplistic narrative that was based around FO3’s karma system. The LW’s dialogue choices were to be an unrepentant cunt, a money hungry mercenary, or Jesus Christ with a machine gun. With the BoS being noble knights, playing as an evil or neutral character doesn’t mesh.

I wouldn't say that playing as an evil or neutral character doesn't mesh with Fallout 3. For example, my second Lone Wanderer blew up Megaton, but still did enough good deeds to make up for it while patrolling the wastes that by the time the war with the Enclave started, she was a Symbol of Order that GNR kept praising. That, and prior to meeting the BoS, my second LW's primary allies were the Brotherhood Outcasts, so she practically runs around blasting Super Mutants and hoarding tech to sell to Casdin or keep for herself. You can be a neutral or evil character. My first LW was an outright Eden-supporting fanatic who destroyed the Brotherhood of Steel with the Enclave satellite weapon and personally hunted down every last Brotherhood of Steel knight/paladin she can find in the Capital Wasteland, with all of that ending with her slaughtering her way through the GNR and killing Three Dog because he forced her to go into a mutant-infested shithole before he told her where her father was. If you play as a neutral character, you simply do what you need to do with the Brotherhood and part ways with them after the main missions are done, and if you play as an evil character, destroying them is an option.

There's also the issue that Bethesda went for the most recognizable stuff from the franchise without much worrying about whether or not it made sense. The Brotherhood of Steel having a significant presence on the East Coast was somewhat hard to believe, considering that as far as the series had established they barely made it to Chicago. Other stuff like that included the Enclave, FEV, and bottlecaps as currency.

Of course they went for the most recognizable stuff first. That's what new owners do when they get their hands on a franchise. If they add new stuff without getting a feel for the franchise first, people get upset. 343 Studios introduced the Prometheans in Halo 4, and while I didn't mind them that much, many Halo fans found them jarring and annoying and preferred fighting the Banished instead, which, for all intents and purposes, is just the Halo 3 Covenant (Brute-led Covenant) minus the religious zeal. When Intelligent Systems first got their hands on the Super Mario franchise to make an RPG, they had the classic Mario vs. Bowser story for their first Paper Mario game and only branched out at their second Paper Mario game by adding the Shadow Queen and Grodus as new villains who share the spotlight with Bowser. That, and it's been decades ever since Fallout 2, so is it that weird to think that the BoS eventually made it further east? The Enclave naturally would want to reclaim the capital after California was a bust, and the FEV is a central component of Fallout's plot for the first two games.

Thinking about it, I can buy the Enclave being in DC as Raven Rock is as close as you can get to a real life vault and it is designed to house the US government in case of a nuclear attack. Sincerely the Enclave is the remnants of the US government it is logical that they would exist there. Also, it would not make logistical sense for all of the non-mutated humans to be housed on one oil rig in the Pacific Ocean, especially considering the size of the US.

FEV was a bullshit excuse to have super mutants, but at least Bethesda gave them variety in the form of Bethemonths.

And bottle caps; I actually like them from a thematic standpoint. Yeah it doesn’t make sense but it is something unique for Fallout’s setting. Plus where the fuck did Fallout 2’s gold coins come from?

That Oil Rig nonsense didn't make any sense at all. Why put all your personnel, including the remnants of the government, on an off-shore control station that can easily be destroyed if its reactor suffered a meltdown? Raven Rock and Adams Air Force Base made more sense as a base for the Enclave because the former IS a real military bunker that served as a fallback position for the US government in case they lose the capital, and the latter is an air force base that can house Vertibirds to fly all over the place.

FEV experiments were part of the Fallout 1 and 2 lore, and to not have them there makes no sense for a first-time Fallout game.

I suppose some people melted down gold jewelry and raided enough old-world banks to have gold to melt for those coins.

Yeah, to be fair the Enclave in Raven Rock makes more sense than the oil rig ever did. But it did feel like something of a rehash.

FEV, I dunno, I liked that Super Mutants were essentially dying off by the time of Fallout 2. The Behemoths were cool, though. Overlords, too; always a good reason to keep a few Nuka Grenades handy.

I thought Fallout 2's money was implied to be NCR currency. The bottlecap thing I dislike because they went to some effort to explain them in the original game: they were backed by The Hub's water merchants. It made sense that as society rebuilt itself, such crude currency would fall by the wayside -- and what are the chances that isolated parts of the country would turn to the same thing? Hell, at least Fallout Tactics swapped out the bottlecaps for ring tabs.

Of course it was a rehash. They were playing it safe. Once Fallout 3 became a huge success, then they began branching out.

I'm sure that there would have been more than one place that was experimenting with the FEV program in pre-war America.

Society in Fallout 3 hasn't been rebuilt yet. It's a weak society with isolated towns and cities, not a country-level superpower like Caesar's Legion or the NCR.

 

[Strange Wilderness]

Of course they went for the most recognizable stuff first. That's what new owners do when they get their hands on a franchise. If they add new stuff without getting a feel for the franchise first, people get upset. 343 Studios introduced the Prometheans in Halo 4, and while I didn't mind them that much, many Halo fans found them jarring and annoying and preferred fighting the Banished instead, which, for all intents and purposes, is just the Halo 3 Covenant (Brute-led Covenant) minus the religious zeal. When Intelligent Systems first got their hands on the Super Mario franchise to make an RPG, they had the classic Mario vs. Bowser story for their first Paper Mario game and only branched out at their second Paper Mario game by adding the Shadow Queen and Grodus as new villains who share the spotlight with Bowser. That, and it's been decades ever since Fallout 2, so is it that weird to think that the BoS eventually made it further east? The Enclave naturally would want to reclaim the capital after California was a bust, and the FEV is a central component of Fallout's plot for the first two games.

It definitely makes sense why a company would jam in recognizable elements into a new installment, shows the fans they understand the IP and want to tell stories fans will recognize. If Bethesda had included too many new elements to the series, people would accuse them of just buying up the Fallout name to slap on an original game just to sell copies. The problem is that how those original elements got into the DC area from California that make no sense. The Banished from Halo taking over the Ark makes sense because the Brutes hate the Elites and Humans, and know the Arks location. The Enclave and Brotherhood making their way cross-country to DC is a stretch. Why did the Enclave head east to DC instead of a military base in the Rockies? Some supercomputer sent out a message and the battered Enclave trekked all the way to Raven Rock. Would have made more sense if it was another branch of the Enclave operating out of Raven Rock all along instead of the Oil Rig remnants. Why did the Brotherhood send a group to DC? To find old tech and reconnect with the Chicago branch. Would have made a little more sense if Lyons Brotherhood was the Chicago branch forced to flee east knowing there was a possible refuge at the Citadel and just happened to find a treasure trove of tech and decided to stay. It would also explain why they became knights in shining armor trying to save the wasteland due to the Chicago branch being more accepting of wastelanders and mutants into their ranks.

I can definitely see those two groups making their way to the east coast but the in-game reason "why" is such a stretch that I start to question the entire plot. Maybe tie the FEV into the reason why the two groups went east, the Enclave knew that experiments were being conducted at a Vault in the DC area and they went east to retrieve it and the Brotherhood found out after combing over Navarro and sent out a group to find and destroy the FEV. Its only just now the Enclave were able to get their hands on FEV after so many years and the Brotherhood has struggled for years to establish a presence in the area and were unable to look for the Vault or effectively hunt down the Enclave.

 

[LORD IMPERATOR]

It definitely makes sense why a company would jam in recognizable elements into a new installment, shows the fans they understand the IP and want to tell stories fans will recognize. If Bethesda had included too many new elements to the series, people would accuse them of just buying up the Fallout name to slap on an original game just to sell copies. The problem is that how those original elements got into the DC area from California that make no sense. The Banished from Halo taking over the Ark makes sense because the Brutes hate the Elites and Humans, and know the Arks location. The Enclave and Brotherhood making their way cross-country to DC is a stretch. Why did the Enclave head east to DC instead of a military base in the Rockies? Some supercomputer sent out a message and the battered Enclave trekked all the way to Raven Rock. Would have made more sense if it was another branch of the Enclave operating out of Raven Rock all along instead of the Oil Rig remnants. Why did the Brotherhood send a group to DC? To find old tech and reconnect with the Chicago branch. Would have made a little more sense if Lyons Brotherhood was the Chicago branch forced to flee east knowing there was a possible refuge at the Citadel and just happened to find a treasure trove of tech and decided to stay. It would also explain why they became knights in shining armor trying to save the wasteland due to the Chicago branch being more accepting of wastelanders and mutants into their ranks.

I can definitely see those two groups making their way to the east coast but the in-game reason "why" is such a stretch that I start to question the entire plot. Maybe tie the FEV into the reason why the two groups went east, the Enclave knew that experiments were being conducted at a Vault in the DC area and they went east to retrieve it and the Brotherhood found out after combing over Navarro and sent out a group to find and destroy the FEV. Its only just now the Enclave were able to get their hands on FEV after so many years and the Brotherhood has struggled for years to establish a presence in the area and were unable to look for the Vault or effectively hunt down the Enclave.

The Brotherhood and the Enclave going to DC makes sense when one considers two things:

A) there's probably a good amount of pre-war tech lying around the former capital of the nation, not to mention some vaults or bunkers that might have some good secrets.

B) the NCR was taking control of the west, so both the Brotherhood of Steel and the Enclave had to skedaddle and make tracks to go out East. In the case of the Enclave, it's because a new president summoned them there, and reclaiming the capital would be a good first step to rebuilding the United States. They didn't know that their new president happened to be a supercomputer. Only Colonel Autumn's dad knew, and once Autumn Jr. took over, he kept the self-destruct switch for Eden just to make sure that he can kill the guy once Eden is no longer useful. Not to mention that there's no NCR out there, so there's not that much in terms of competition. Had the Lone Wanderer not utterly fucked things into the dirt for them, the Enclave would have won. They would have taken control of the Capital Wasteland and would have used it as a permanent base, which is far more reliable than an oil rig that can blow up if its reactor went haywire. For the Brotherhood, the game makes it clear that the Lyons' Brotherhood is just a BRANCH of the Brotherhood, ie. the Brotherhood sent a division or a regiment to check out things in DC, because DC may have some cool nifty tech for them to salvage. Given that they bumped across Liberty Prime, that assumption proved to be correct.

As for the Lyons' Brotherhood becoming more accepting of outsiders, well, they were losing the war with Super Mutants when they were trying to comb the DC area for tech. So it makes perfect sense for them to recruit wastelanders and fit them in primitive power armor suits to use as meatshields and cannon fodder against the Super Mutants so that the veteran Brotherhood paladins don't all get wiped out. I mean, given how the Outcasts who venture into the ruins get swarmed by Super Mutants (especially that one outpost that started the Anchorage DLC, where if you fast travel there, you find them fighting off Super Mutants) it makes sense why the Lyons' Brotherhood would start recruiting locals and maintain a guise of helping them. But if you notice something, most of the veteran BoS Paladins in DC stay in the Pentagon/Citadel, while many of the guys who go into the thick of battle with Sarah Lyons are initiates and recently-inducted members. Heck, they even hastily inducted the Lone Wanderer into Lyons' Pride and slapped some power armor on him/her so as to use the LW as another bullet-shield along with Liberty Prime. They send out the young guns to get shot at by Super Mutants and Enclave troops, while the senior members get to hang out in DC picking apart the tech they salvage like Liberty Prime.

The Outcasts act as if Owyn Lyons is some bleeding-heart sycophant who bent over backwards for the masses, but his actions were rather practical. His people managed to get outsiders to put on BoS armor and get shot at by the mutants while they conserve the hard-hitting Paladins and keep them from getting wrecked, and they seized a clean water source so as to make sure their forces can monopolize clean water and gain more support from locals. Lyons was a far more practical man than the New Vegas Brotherhood, who know that their end is coming, but they refuse to change unless an outsider pushes them to do so. At least Lyons' Brotherhood are doing things that would A) ensure their survival in the wasteland and B) ensure that the locals support them. Whereas the New Vegas Brotherhood is so idiotic that some lunatic armed with enough heavy weapons can waltz into their bunker one day and eradicate everyone. Whereas if you want to destroy the DC Brotherhood, you'd need a fucking satellite weapon in order to do so.

 

[ShortBusDriver]

Funny thing about Freeside is it's supposed to be a really dangerous slum, but any mugger that spawns gets gunned down by a dozen Kings long before they reach the player. I just finished a playthrough and every time they spawned I would purposely stand still to see if they reached me. I didn't suffer a single attack. I use Freeside Open which may be part of it (more Kings in the vicinity).

Spoiler: Dead Money spoilers

Something that has always bugged me about Dead Money: how is Elijah trapped when the Courier isn't? The terminal where you shut down the security states that the elevator will lock if the terminal in the vault is accessed, but the Courier will only be trapped if they read "Sinclair's Personal Accounts." Elijah walks up to the terminal outside the vault and is apparently "trapped." It really does feel like the layout and gameplay of the vault was switched around at the last minute (little things like Elijah saying, "Don't go into the vault" when you are already inside, talking about precious data stored on terminals when there's just money and guns down there etc.).

Anyway, it's just something that always bugged me; trapping Elijah just doesn't make sense.

In regular New Vegas the muggers will absolutely attack you.

I was level 10 or 12 the first time I got there and was pretty proficient with a gun and easily head shorted them from VATs

 

[LORD IMPERATOR]

In regular New Vegas the muggers will absolutely attack you.

I was level 10 or 12 he first time I got there and was pretty proficient with a gun and easily head shorted them from VATs

It's funny when they attack me with tire irons while I'm decked out in Enclave power armor and sporting plasma casters.

I suppose they're all aching to get the Darwin Award.

 

[Burned Man]

As for the Lyons' Brotherhood becoming more accepting of outsiders, well, they were losing the war with Super Mutants when they were trying to comb the DC area for tech. So it makes perfect sense for them to recruit wastelanders and fit them in primitive power armor suits to use as meatshields and cannon fodder against the Super Mutants so that the veteran Brotherhood paladins don't all get wiped out. I mean, given how the Outcasts who venture into the ruins get swarmed by Super Mutants (especially that one outpost that started the Anchorage DLC, where if you fast travel there, you find them fighting off Super Mutants) it makes sense why the Lyons' Brotherhood would start recruiting locals and maintain a guise of helping them. But if you notice something, most of the veteran BoS Paladins in DC stay in the Pentagon/Citadel, while many of the guys who go into the thick of battle with Sarah Lyons are initiates and recently-inducted members. Heck, they even hastily inducted the Lone Wanderer into Lyons' Pride and slapped some power armor on him/her so as to use the LW as another bullet-shield along with Liberty Prime. They send out the young guns to get shot at by Super Mutants and Enclave troops, while the senior members get to hang out in DC picking apart the tech they salvage like Liberty Prime.

The Outcasts act as if Owyn Lyons is some bleeding-heart sycophant who bent over backwards for the masses, but his actions were rather practical. His people managed to get outsiders to put on BoS armor and get shot at by the mutants while they conserve the hard-hitting Paladins and keep them from getting wrecked, and they seized a clean water source so as to make sure their forces can monopolize clean water and gain more support from locals. Lyons was a far more practical man than the New Vegas Brotherhood, who know that their end is coming, but they refuse to change unless an outsider pushes them to do so. At least Lyons' Brotherhood are doing things that would A) ensure their survival in the wasteland and B) ensure that the locals support them. Whereas the New Vegas Brotherhood is so idiotic that some lunatic armed with enough heavy weapons can waltz into their bunker one day and eradicate everyone. Whereas if you want to destroy the DC Brotherhood, you'd need a fucking satellite weapon in order to do so.

I think it might have lessened the blow back if they changed the names around. If the outcasts kept the Brotherhood name, ranks, and paint scheme and Lyon's group was called Lyon's Pride and had the outcast ranks with their more humanitarian mission.

Speaking of Lyon's pride they are mostly paladins and knight captains with the two initiates that one time and we all remember how that ended. Inducting the Lone Wanderer isn't that much of a stretch when you consider the Enclave/ super mutant body count they have by that point not to mention they are mission critical to getting the purifier running.

The BoS seem to be throwing bodies including paladins wherever needed, the exterior guard of GNR are mostly Paladins and you can find some manning an outpost near the White House Crater, some bits have DC have squads in combat, the ones that help clear Arlington Library, and some are captured and attack the Talon Company HQ after the aqua pura caravans start. Even if they aren't paladins, knights still are supposed to be a decent investment of time and training to create and they are still thrown into the meat grinder and so often you find dead Brotherhood members forgotten in the ruins who's armor was never reclaimed.

I do respect the changes Lyon's made to the Brotherhood to avoid recreating the problems the West Coast Brotherhood made for themselves like taking new blood and not provoking the locals but at the same time I can see why the Outcasts have a problem with them. The Outcasts want to just scavenge and leave while Lyon's wants to establish a more permanent fiefdom. The main problem being despite decades of work the Super Mutant threat is still strong and holds most of DC and the BoS have no clue where their origin point is until the Lone Wanderer tells them. Before the Lone Wanderer rolls in and start solving their problems Lyon's Brotherhood is in a losing war of attrition with only a small secure zone to show for it. Even the exterior of the Citadel falls victim to super mutant attacks at times. I think Lyon's let his nobility and compassion after seeing the horror of the Pitt get the better of him and without cynical minds like Casdin around him he would have led the Brotherhood to ruin by refusing to compromise his morality. That said the Outcasts aren't fairing much better but I think part of their problem is the game doesn't spend enough time with them to flesh them out more.

All and all I like Lyon's Brotherhood and think they were a fine addition that really wasn't that out of place outside of being literally out of place geographically.

 

[Ruin]

It's funny when they attack me with tire irons while I'm decked out in Enclave power armor and sporting plasma casters.

I suppose they're all aching to get the Darwin Award.

Freeside thugs were actually actually called chem addicts in early builds of the game. They're impoverished people on chems so yea not really in their right minds.

It's established lore that the fiends will repeatedly attack Fort Mccaren despite there being a huge NCR presence there including rangers and first recon snipers and there being zero chance of survival.

Psycho is a hell of a drug.

 

[LORD IMPERATOR]

I think it might have lessened the blow back if they changed the names around. If the outcasts kept the Brotherhood name, ranks, and paint scheme and Lyon's group was called Lyon's Pride and had the outcast ranks with their more humanitarian mission.

Speaking of Lyon's pride they are mostly paladins and knight captains with the two initiates that one time and we all remember how that ended. Inducting the Lone Wanderer isn't that much of a stretch when you consider the Enclave/ super mutant body count they have by that point not to mention they are mission critical to getting the purifier running.

The BoS seem to be throwing bodies including paladins wherever needed, the exterior guard of GNR are mostly Paladins and you can find some manning an outpost near the White House Crater, some bits have DC have squads in combat, the ones that help clear Arlington Library, and some are captured and attack the Talon Company HQ after the aqua pura caravans start. Even if they aren't paladins, knights still are supposed to be a decent investment of time and training to create and they are still thrown into the meat grinder and so often you find dead Brotherhood members forgotten in the ruins who's armor was never reclaimed.

I do respect the changes Lyon's made to the Brotherhood to avoid recreating the problems the West Coast Brotherhood made for themselves like taking new blood and not provoking the locals but at the same time I can see why the Outcasts have a problem with them. The Outcasts want to just scavenge and leave while Lyon's wants to establish a more permanent fiefdom. The main problem being despite decades of work the Super Mutant threat is still strong and holds most of DC and the BoS have no clue where their origin point is until the Lone Wanderer tells them. Before the Lone Wanderer rolls in and start solving their problems Lyon's Brotherhood is in a losing war of attrition with only a small secure zone to show for it. Even the exterior of the Citadel falls victim to super mutant attacks at times. I think Lyon's let his nobility and compassion after seeing the horror of the Pitt get the better of him and without cynical minds like Casdin around him he would have led the Brotherhood to ruin by refusing to compromise his morality. That said the Outcasts aren't fairing much better but I think part of their problem is the game doesn't spend enough time with them to flesh them out more.

All and all I like Lyon's Brotherhood and think they were a fine addition that really wasn't that out of place outside of being literally out of place geographically.

Actually, the Super Mutants are attacking both Brotherhood and Outcast positions at once. If anything, recruiting outsiders and throwing fresh meat at them is rather pragmatic, to say the least. Owyn Lyons' crusade against the Enclave further allowed the East Coast Brotherhood to gain power by seizing control of the Capital Wasteland's chief water supply AND seizing enough Enclave tech to make the BoS stronger. I was actually quite surprised the BoS didn't start reverse-engineering the Enclave power armors so that they too would be walking around kitted with the best power armor.

As I said before, I actually admire Owyn Lyons and think his strategy was for the best. The only thing I would have changed if I were in Owyn Lyons' shoes is that I'd completely sever ties with the Brotherhood once and for all after the West Coast Elders cut them off and left them to their devices. I'd openly go for what Eden was trying to do, to revive the United States, albeit without the overt hatred of all mutants, and I'd transform the Lyons' Brotherhood into a revived US Army. We would make overtures with Enclave remnants in DC following the destruction of their mobile base crawler. Have GNR openly hand out the message to any Enclave forces scattered and in disarray that we're willing to let bygones be bygones and have them join us so we can forge a new American government in the Capital Wasteland with Owyn or Sarah Lyons as the new US President, and reveal to them that Eden was an AI and that Autumn was acting outside of Eden's orders.

With both of them dead, and the Enclave forces in Adams Air Force Base in utter shambles, the Enclave forces in DC would be scattered and leaderless, and we'd tell them that they're welcome to join Lyons' Pride as they move away from the ideology of the Brotherhood and move closer to rebuilding the United States at its capital. We'd continue recruiting outsiders into a standardized army, and we'd start reverse-engineering Enclave Power Armor suits so we can have more advanced technology, allowing us secure the ruins of DC. Once Liberty Prime is rebuilt, we'd commit to a full assault against the Super Mutants in the DC ruins, which should fall within the year. Once that's all said and done, rebuilding the city and establishing a stabilized government in the capital region would be our next aim.

As for the Outcasts, let them collect tech for all we care. We'd give them some pieces of Enclave tech to bring back home to California and wish them the best. Hopefully they get wrecked by Caesar's Legion or the NCR on their way back home to Lost Hills. It's not like those two factions would spare the Brotherhood once they're done slap-fighting with each other over the Mojave. Either the NCR wins and the Legion disintegrates into infighting, allowing the NCR to finish the job and eradicate the West Coast Brotherhood at last, or the Legion wins, invades and takes over the NCR, and they'd finish what the NCR started and eradicate what's left of the California Brotherhood, crucifying the males and selling the females as slaves.

Freeside thugs were actually actually called chem addicts in early builds of the game. They're impoverished people on chems so yea not really in their right minds.

It's established lore that the fiends will repeatedly attack Fort Mccaren despite there being a huge NCR presence there including rangers and first recon snipers and there being zero chance of survival.

Psycho is a hell of a drug.

That's right. The Freeside branch of the Followers of the Apocalypse speak of chem addiction being a problem in the slums. But still, you'd think they'd actually be a challenge if they're tripping on pyscho.

I recreated the Fallout 2 opening when I assaulted the Fiends in Vault 3, complete with me dressing up in Enclave Power Armor, opening the vault door, and firing a minigun at the hapless residents of the vault. it was therapeutic.

The Fiends usually attack the NCR forces there thanks to some Legion Frumentarii giving the Fiends some good heads-up. I suppose the Fiends would horribly lose once the Legion loses its spy inside the McCarran Air Force Base and the Fiend leaders get eradicated by one angry mailman/mailwoman.

 

[Ruin]

Actually, the Super Mutants are attacking both Brotherhood and Outcast positions at once. If anything, recruiting outsiders and throwing fresh meat at them is rather pragmatic, to say the least. Owyn Lyons' crusade against the Enclave further allowed the East Coast Brotherhood to gain power by seizing control of the Capital Wasteland's chief water supply AND seizing enough Enclave tech to make the BoS stronger. I was actually quite surprised the BoS didn't start reverse-engineering the Enclave power armors so that they too would be walking around kitted with the best power armor.

As I said before, I actually admire Owyn Lyons and think his strategy was for the best. The only thing I would have changed if I were in Owyn Lyons' shoes is that I'd completely sever ties with the Brotherhood once and for all after the West Coast Elders cut them off and left them to their devices. I'd openly go for what Eden was trying to do, to revive the United States, albeit without the overt hatred of all mutants, and I'd transform the Lyons' Brotherhood into a revived US Army. We would make overtures with Enclave remnants in DC following the destruction of their mobile base crawler. Have GNR openly hand out the message to any Enclave forces scattered and in disarray that we're willing to let bygones be bygones and have them join us so we can forge a new American government in the Capital Wasteland with Owyn or Sarah Lyons as the new US President, and reveal to them that Eden was an AI and that Autumn was acting outside of Eden's orders.

With both of them dead, and the Enclave forces in Adams Air Force Base in utter shambles, the Enclave forces in DC would be scattered and leaderless, and we'd tell them that they're welcome to join Lyons' Pride as they move away from the ideology of the Brotherhood and move closer to rebuilding the United States at its capital. We'd continue recruiting outsiders into a standardized army, and we'd start reverse-engineering Enclave Power Armor suits so we can have more advanced technology, allowing us secure the ruins of DC. Once Liberty Prime is rebuilt, we'd commit to a full assault against the Super Mutants in the DC ruins, which should fall within the year. Once that's all said and done, rebuilding the city and establishing a stabilized government in the capital region would be our next aim.

As for the Outcasts, let them collect tech for all we care. We'd give them some pieces of Enclave tech to bring back home to California and wish them the best. Hopefully they get wrecked by Caesar's Legion or the NCR on their way back home to Lost Hills. It's not like those two factions would spare the Brotherhood once they're done slap-fighting with each other over the Mojave. Either the NCR wins and the Legion disintegrates into infighting, allowing the NCR to finish the job and eradicate the West Coast Brotherhood at last, or the Legion wins, invades and takes over the NCR, and they'd finish what the NCR started and eradicate what's left of the California Brotherhood, crucifying the males and selling the females as slaves.


That's right. The Freeside branch of the Followers of the Apocalypse speak of chem addiction being a problem in the slums. But still, you'd think they'd actually be a challenge if they're tripping on pyscho.

I recreated the Fallout 2 opening when I assaulted the Fiends in Vault 3, complete with me dressing up in Enclave Power Armor, opening the vault door, and firing a minigun at the hapless residents of the vault. it was therapeutic.

The Fiends usually attack the NCR forces there thanks to some Legion Frumentarii giving the Fiends some good heads-up. I suppose the Fiends would horribly lose once the Legion loses its spy inside the McCarran Air Force Base and the Fiend leaders get eradicated by one angry mailman/mailwoman.

Depending on the Courier's actions they can also murder/neuter the main chem suppliers in Freeside and formally ally the Followers of the Apocalypse with the NCR. Presumably in the NCR ending the chem trade in freeside is either completely destroyed or severely impacted.

 

[Burned Man]

Actually, the Super Mutants are attacking both Brotherhood and Outcast positions at once. If anything, recruiting outsiders and throwing fresh meat at them is rather pragmatic, to say the least. Owyn Lyons' crusade against the Enclave further allowed the East Coast Brotherhood to gain power by seizing control of the Capital Wasteland's chief water supply AND seizing enough Enclave tech to make the BoS stronger. I was actually quite surprised the BoS didn't start reverse-engineering the Enclave power armors so that they too would be walking around kitted with the best power armor.

As I said before, I actually admire Owyn Lyons and think his strategy was for the best. The only thing I would have changed if I were in Owyn Lyons' shoes is that I'd completely sever ties with the Brotherhood once and for all after the West Coast Elders cut them off and left them to their devices. I'd openly go for what Eden was trying to do, to revive the United States, albeit without the overt hatred of all mutants, and I'd transform the Lyons' Brotherhood into a revived US Army. We would make overtures with Enclave remnants in DC following the destruction of their mobile base crawler. Have GNR openly hand out the message to any Enclave forces scattered and in disarray that we're willing to let bygones be bygones and have them join us so we can forge a new American government in the Capital Wasteland with Owyn or Sarah Lyons as the new US President, and reveal to them that Eden was an AI and that Autumn was acting outside of Eden's orders.

The problem is though is manpower in the Capital Wasteland has to be a very finite resource and its being consumed by raiders, slavers, talon mercs, and mutants at the same time the Brotherhood wants to recruit. The local recruits aren't conscripts and have willingly enlisted into the Brotherhood and receive the same training the old school members received. They have to be capable of using power armor and have good proficiency with multiple weapons. He can only recruit those that show aptitude for the work as cutting corners won't help the morale of other members and he can't treat the new blood as lesser members and disposable manpower because that would impact the amount of people volunteering in the first place. Lyon's can't win a war of attrition against the mutants even with all the smarter moves he made to ensure the Brotherhood's survival.

I think part of the problem in 3 is that the Brotherhood is so dependent on the player to do their job for them not just in the main story but in small side things like Arlington Library too. Their agency is extremely limited to the point that Enclave NCR war is not only kicked off but solved almost entirely by the player. The one time the BoS kicks any ass all by themselves is when the player is in a coma. Ultimately things work out for them and they become stronger then any other group in the Capital Wasteland but also more powerful then the original Brotherhood itself but they didn't really earn it and without the player character I can't see them as ever having had a happy ending.

Maybe the problem people had with Bethesda's take on them is if you do compare them to the original BoS in 1 they aren't as effective as you'd expect given their spotlight in the story. In 1 they were a bunch of weirdo isolationists in a bunker with the cool tech. They were completely optional to the story but if you take the time to convince them to aid you they send a squad to help you assault the mutant base and then proceed to save the entire wasteland in the war that follows the game. In 3 you are forced to get their help and they then proceed to do mostly nothing while sending the 19 year old civilian to do most of the work alone. At the end they certainly help the player and redeem themselves thanks to how awesome Liberty Prime is but for being a crucial part of the narrative they are a little underwhelming.

I started with 3 and went back to 1 so my views on them are always skewed in favor of Lyon's bunch so I can't say how people felt on a first impression to the new Brotherhood in 3.

 

[A Grey Cat]

Alright so I got back from family vacation in Las Vegas and visited several sites featured in New Vegas. I even made an autistic cheat sheet so people would know what the fuck I was babbling about when I mentioned something like Mr. House or Fisto. A few fun facts about Vegas and the Strip related to New Vegas:

Hoover Dam: In the quest where you have to protect Kimble from Legion assassins at the Dam the tower where the Legion assassin tries to snipe Kimble is a Mens Restroom in real life.

Stratosphere/ Lucky 38: In real-life the cocktail lounge is a fancy, and VERY expensive, revolving restaurant while the levels that would be Mr. Houses penthouse/control room are an amusement park with rides and bungee jumping.

Freemont St/Freeside: In real-life is completely enclosed so thanks to the pandemic you have to wear a mask even when "outside". Like Freeside its much cheaper than the Vegas strip though there is a lot less random muggers trying to rob a guy wearing power armor carrying a rocket launcher or wearing a shotgun fist. No sexbots yet

Red Rock Canyon: Really beautiful views and great hiking opportunities. No sign of Mongol drug dealers though. The canyon where the Great Khans have set up shop in game is fictional and just an approximation of the canyon as a whole.

Sloan: Passed it on the highway and saw it did have a bunch of mining equipment I saw from the road. No Deathclaws though.

Primm: Never made it down that far but several billboards did advertise it as the last hurah on your way out from Vegas.

Black Mountain; Saw it from the road has a ton of radio towers on it so thats the inspiration for Tabatha taking it over to turn it into her base to rant on the radio

Mt Charleston: Tallest mountain in the Vegas area. Has ski resorts but no Super Mutants.


Also went shooting and shot a few guns that were featured in the game.

M1911/ .45 Auto Pistol: Has a real kick to it. Graham isnt just tough as shit he's also pretty strong to use his gun the way he does to execute tribal savages

Tommy Gun/ .45 Auto Sub-machine Gun: Like the above gun has a real kick to it.

Browning Automatic Rifle/ Automatic Rifle: Bullets are fucking huge, I can't imagine shooting this thing from the shoulder or hip. John Browning must have been built like an oak to design guns that shot the kind of rounds they did.

MP-5/ 10 mm Sub-machinegun: Really easy to shoot and control. Very accurate though the one I shot had a shoulder stock instead of being fired handheld.

FN P90/ 12mm Sub-machine gun: Very easy to handle and pretty accurate. Pretty good reason they made it a top-tier gun in-game.

M-79 Blooper/ Grenade Rifle: If the dummy round I shot is anything like the explosive rounds shot from the weapon, you are going to need more than a Strength of 3 or a very high Endurance to use the weapon frequently.


Overall from my vacation I can really appreciate that the team that made New Vegas made an actual effort to incorporate actual real-life elements from Las Vegas to make the game more realistic. New Vegas and the Mojave wasteland are not just wacky stuff happens because its cool like in the Bethesda games, they are actual lived in areas that incorporate the real world Las Vegas and Mojave desert to make a game where you work with a 200 year old visionary industrialist and deal with a gang of Elvis impersonators who worship him as a God, and it all feels realistic because the writers made an effort to incorporate some sort of realism into the game.

But where there a bunch of incels larping as romans on the shores of the Colorado River?

 

[LORD IMPERATOR]

The problem is though is manpower in the Capital Wasteland has to be a very finite resource and its being consumed by raiders, slavers, talon mercs, and mutants at the same time the Brotherhood wants to recruit. The local recruits aren't conscripts and have willingly enlisted into the Brotherhood and receive the same training the old school members received. They have to be capable of using power armor and have good proficiency with multiple weapons. He can only recruit those that show aptitude for the work as cutting corners won't help the morale of other members and he can't treat the new blood as lesser members and disposable manpower because that would impact the amount of people volunteering in the first place. Lyon's can't win a war of attrition against the mutants even with all the smarter moves he made to ensure the Brotherhood's survival.

I think part of the problem in 3 is that the Brotherhood is so dependent on the player to do their job for them not just in the main story but in small side things like Arlington Library too. Their agency is extremely limited to the point that Enclave NCR war is not only kicked off but solved almost entirely by the player. The one time the BoS kicks any ass all by themselves is when the player is in a coma. Ultimately things work out for them and they become stronger then any other group in the Capital Wasteland but also more powerful then the original Brotherhood itself but they didn't really earn it and without the player character I can't see them as ever having had a happy ending.

Maybe the problem people had with Bethesda's take on them is if you do compare them to the original BoS in 1 they aren't as effective as you'd expect given their spotlight in the story. In 1 they were a bunch of weirdo isolationists in a bunker with the cool tech. They were completely optional to the story but if you take the time to convince them to aid you they send a squad to help you assault the mutant base and then proceed to save the entire wasteland in the war that follows the game. In 3 you are forced to get their help and they then proceed to do mostly nothing while sending the 19 year old civilian to do most of the work alone. At the end they certainly help the player and redeem themselves thanks to how awesome Liberty Prime is but for being a crucial part of the narrative they are a little underwhelming.

I started with 3 and went back to 1 so my views on them are always skewed in favor of Lyon's bunch so I can't say how people felt on a first impression to the new Brotherhood in 3.

Considering that the Fallout 4 BoS has enough leisure time to go crusading in the Boston Commonwealth, I'd say that the East Coast BoS eventually defeated the mutants through said war of attrition. Lyons' strategy worked long enough for them to succeed, then they threw away Lyons' principles to become jackasses once again, which makes them extra punchable in Fallout 4. It's funny, BoS fans think Lyons is an idiot and think Arthur Maxson's rise to power restored the Brotherhood to glory, when Lyons' regime led to the BoS taking over the Capital Wasteland, and Arthur Maxson's policies made his Brotherhood a target for everyone in the Commonwealth, with three factions (Minutemen, Institute, and Railroad) wanting them dead.

It's no less awkward than the Brotherhood of Steel barely participating in Fallout 2 against the Enclave. Some random tribal destroys a US government remnant that makes the BoS look like shit-flinging monkeys. Face it, Fallout 3 didn't start the whole "one guy decimates a power-armored army by his/her lonesome" gig, Fallout 2 already did that. The BoS didn't even contribute to the defeat of the Enclave, that random tribal destroyed the Enclave all by their lonesome. At least in Fallout 3, the Brotherhood participated, with their giant robot doing most of the fighting in the final battle for the vanilla game, and they outright supported the player afterwards.

I started with New Vegas and went backwards, so I found the Brotherhood to be more nuanced in 3 than in New Vegas. In New Vegas, unless I'm doing a full paragon run, I just eradicate them, whereas the Fallout 3 Brotherhood gave you two sides to a Brotherhood conflict that both have decent points.

 

[Exceptionally Exceptional]

As much as people bitch about the Enclave and Brotherhood getting to DC, what I wanna know is how a bunch of Hubologists got to Boston. At least the Enclave and BoS had fucking vertibirds.