Fallout series

[WinchesterPremium]

As much as people bitch about the Enclave and Brotherhood getting to DC, what I wanna know is how a bunch of Hubologists got to Boston. At least the Enclave and BoS had fucking vertibirds.

The power of Xenu.

 

[c-no]

As much as people bitch about the Enclave and Brotherhood getting to DC, what I wanna know is how a bunch of Hubologists got to Boston. At least the Enclave and BoS had fucking vertibirds.

Fallout 2 had a hubologist that came all the way down because of porn movies that had some hubologist in it. Then again, trekking from Canada to San Francisco is different compared to trekking from San Francisco to Boston. Only other guess is pre-war cult having some holdouts or wasteland loons coming across Dianetics.

 

[Exceptionally Exceptional]

Only other guess is pre-war cult having some holdouts or wasteland loons coming across Dianetics.

This isn't unreasonable if their version of not-scientology was active before the war.

 

[Burned Man]

Considering that the Fallout 4 BoS has enough leisure time to go crusading in the Boston Commonwealth, I'd say that the East Coast BoS eventually defeated the mutants through said war of attrition. Lyons' strategy worked long enough for them to succeed, then they threw away Lyons' principles to become jackasses once again, which makes them extra punchable in Fallout 4. It's funny, BoS fans think Lyons is an idiot and think Arthur Maxson's rise to power restored the Brotherhood to glory, when Lyons' regime led to the BoS taking over the Capital Wasteland, and Arthur Maxson's policies made his Brotherhood a target for everyone in the Commonwealth, with three factions (Minutemen, Institute, and Railroad) wanting them dead.

It's no less awkward than the Brotherhood of Steel barely participating in Fallout 2 against the Enclave. Some random tribal destroys a US government remnant that makes the BoS look like shit-flinging monkeys. Face it, Fallout 3 didn't start the whole "one guy decimates a power-armored army by his/her lonesome" gig, Fallout 2 already did that. The BoS didn't even contribute to the defeat of the Enclave, that random tribal destroyed the Enclave all by their lonesome. At least in Fallout 3, the Brotherhood participated, with their giant robot doing most of the fighting in the final battle for the vanilla game, and they outright supported the player afterwards.

I started with New Vegas and went backwards, so I found the Brotherhood to be more nuanced in 3 than in New Vegas. In New Vegas, unless I'm doing a full paragon run, I just eradicate them, whereas the Fallout 3 Brotherhood gave you two sides to a Brotherhood conflict that both have decent points.

Lyon's plan absolutely paid off big time in the end but my point was that it worked out more through luck than anything. My reasoning is that while Lyon's plan bought a lot of time and ensured the survival of the Capital Wasteland long enough for LW to show up and get shit done, LW showing up in the first place was never part of the plan. Once LW shows up and kicks off the Enclave war, defeats the Enclave, turns on the water, and finds the mutant source the Brotherhood had everything they finally needed to turn it around. I'd imagine all the clean water and victory over the Enclave probably helped recruitment drives and all the new cutting edge Enclave tech like Vertibirds gave them a greater advantage in battle. The greatest gift they got must have been the location of the Super Mutant source allowing them to cut off the flow of the mutants turning a war of attrition into a extermination.

My take is that Lyon's didn't take over the Wasteland so much as serve as its honorable protector and was able to keep the Brotherhood going no problem entirely off the good will he garnered and he fulfilled his original mandate of gathering tech thanks to the victory over the Enclave ironically making the Outcasts look even more foolish in the process. If the Brotherhood really did take over the Capital Wasteland it was probably Maxson doing it because he was incapable of keeping Lyon's methods going what with him being kind of a dick and all. If Sarah didn't die and Maxson didn't take over when he did I could have seen the original Brotherhood reaching out to her rather then Maxson having reached out to them.

I don't think its awkward that the Brotherhood isn't so involved in 2 if we try to think back to what the BoS was like back then. They were still the same small isolationist group in the bunker only this time they no longer had the one advantage they pressed in 1, complete overwhelming technological supremacy. Now here comes the even bigger and more technologically advanced group with the ability of flight while the Brotherhood has let complacency stagnant them under the assumption they'd always be the sole possessors of the technology of the past. Everything they'd known is flipped upside down. They are paralyzed to act openly against such a clearly overwhelming foe and decided to try and covertly level the playing field first. Their plan get to the vertibird technology for themselves fails and before we get to see what their next plan would have been the Enclave threat is removed. Its like Fallout 1 where they are a small piece of the world and not a major narrative focus.

You are certainly right about the player being a one man death machine being nothing new. I guess my frustration with them in 3 is that they show so many characters just hanging out in the Citadel most of the time. I think a few more missions with members of Lyon's Pride and Sarah might have helped or at the very least when you escape Raven Rock if it was them that showed up in attempt to rescue you rather then Fawkes it might have shown the Brotherhood had your back better.

3 sets the expectations for the Brotherhood so high because it was the only mainline Fallout game that had them in the spotlight and not an optional group of isolationists stuck in a hole in the ground like 1,2, and NV. At least until Fallout 4 of course.

My favorite thing about the Minutemen Brotherhood war in 4 is that's entirely the player's fault. They have no hostilities to each other until the player makes the Brotherhood hostile through the normal means like killing them and then convinces Preston they have no other choice but to wipe them out even though the Brotherhood is still only upset at the player and has no hostility to the Minutemen in general.

 

[Snekposter]

My favorite thing about the Minutemen Brotherhood war in 4 is that's entirely the player's fault. They have no hostilities to each other until the player makes the Brotherhood hostile through the normal means like killing them and then convinces Preston they have no other choice but to wipe them out even though the Brotherhood is still only upset at the player and has no hostility to the Minutemen in general.

Eh... the Brotherhood are actually clear rivals to the Minutemen before any hostilities like that, since they see no issues requisitioning supplies at gunpoint from the local settlements. They're also not at all interested in the Minutemen being an independent peacekeeping force, since they're obviously here to stay judging by all the firepower aboard the Prydwen, the recruitment of locals, and setting up a full field base at the airport. Sooner or later things were going to come to a head anyways, and all the Sole Survivor does is get things moving ahead of time.

 

[Burned Man]

Eh... the Brotherhood are actually clear rivals to the Minutemen before any hostilities like that, since they see no issues requisitioning supplies at gunpoint from the local settlements. They're also not at all interested in the Minutemen being an independent peacekeeping force, since they're obviously here to stay judging by all the firepower aboard the Prydwen, the recruitment of locals, and setting up a full field base at the airport. Sooner or later things were going to come to a head anyways, and all the Sole Survivor does is get things moving ahead of time.

I mostly mean there's never that spark that ignites hostilities between the groups in the first place outside of player shenanigans. There's no moment where the Brotherhood shows up to strongarm a local settlement (possibly Sanctuary) for some food and the Minutemen muster and tell them no and after a tense standoff the shot heard round the Commonwealth is fired. Instead the General goes out and provokes the Brotherhood runs back to Preston and tells him we need kill them all and please don't ask where I got this new fancy coat. While you are right conflict between the groups seems likely how it actually ends up happening is kind of silly, especially when you consider on the Brotherhood path they never start shit with the Minutemen.

 

[c-no]

This isn't unreasonable if their version of not-scientology was active before the war.

As far as I remember, Fallout 2 mentioned them existing well before the war via a holotape. The fact they or at least their literature managed to survive would allow them to somewhat grow.

Eh... the Brotherhood are actually clear rivals to the Minutemen before any hostilities like that, since they see no issues requisitioning supplies at gunpoint from the local settlements. They're also not at all interested in the Minutemen being an independent peacekeeping force, since they're obviously here to stay judging by all the firepower aboard the Prydwen, the recruitment of locals, and setting up a full field base at the airport. Sooner or later things were going to come to a head anyways, and all the Sole Survivor does is get things moving ahead of time.

Don't forget Preston making the Sole Survivor the General of the Minutemen. By having that title, it tells the Brotherhood that you may as well have an army of some kind backing you up and since you're associated with the Minutemen, they'll also fight them along with trying to kill you.

 

[LORD IMPERATOR]

Lyon's plan absolutely paid off big time in the end but my point was that it worked out more through luck than anything. My reasoning is that while Lyon's plan bought a lot of time and ensured the survival of the Capital Wasteland long enough for LW to show up and get shit done, LW showing up in the first place was never part of the plan. Once LW shows up and kicks off the Enclave war, defeats the Enclave, turns on the water, and finds the mutant source the Brotherhood had everything they finally needed to turn it around. I'd imagine all the clean water and victory over the Enclave probably helped recruitment drives and all the new cutting edge Enclave tech like Vertibirds gave them a greater advantage in battle. The greatest gift they got must have been the location of the Super Mutant source allowing them to cut off the flow of the mutants turning a war of attrition into a extermination.

My take is that Lyon's didn't take over the Wasteland so much as serve as its honorable protector and was able to keep the Brotherhood going no problem entirely off the good will he garnered and he fulfilled his original mandate of gathering tech thanks to the victory over the Enclave ironically making the Outcasts look even more foolish in the process. If the Brotherhood really did take over the Capital Wasteland it was probably Maxson doing it because he was incapable of keeping Lyon's methods going what with him being kind of a dick and all. If Sarah didn't die and Maxson didn't take over when he did I could have seen the original Brotherhood reaching out to her rather then Maxson having reached out to them.

I don't think its awkward that the Brotherhood isn't so involved in 2 if we try to think back to what the BoS was like back then. They were still the same small isolationist group in the bunker only this time they no longer had the one advantage they pressed in 1, complete overwhelming technological supremacy. Now here comes the even bigger and more technologically advanced group with the ability of flight while the Brotherhood has let complacency stagnant them under the assumption they'd always be the sole possessors of the technology of the past. Everything they'd known is flipped upside down. They are paralyzed to act openly against such a clearly overwhelming foe and decided to try and covertly level the playing field first. Their plan get to the vertibird technology for themselves fails and before we get to see what their next plan would have been the Enclave threat is removed. Its like Fallout 1 where they are a small piece of the world and not a major narrative focus.

You are certainly right about the player being a one man death machine being nothing new. I guess my frustration with them in 3 is that they show so many characters just hanging out in the Citadel most of the time. I think a few more missions with members of Lyon's Pride and Sarah might have helped or at the very least when you escape Raven Rock if it was them that showed up in attempt to rescue you rather then Fawkes it might have shown the Brotherhood had your back better.

3 sets the expectations for the Brotherhood so high because it was the only mainline Fallout game that had them in the spotlight and not an optional group of isolationists stuck in a hole in the ground like 1,2, and NV. At least until Fallout 4 of course.

My favorite thing about the Minutemen Brotherhood war in 4 is that's entirely the player's fault. They have no hostilities to each other until the player makes the Brotherhood hostile through the normal means like killing them and then convinces Preston they have no other choice but to wipe them out even though the Brotherhood is still only upset at the player and has no hostility to the Minutemen in general.

I'm pretty sure that Vault 87 was already a ghost town by the time the LW went to war with the Enclave. After all, they depopulated it of its super mutant inhabitants before the Enclave nabbed them. But my point is that Lyons' plan was still strategically sound. Holding up and isolating themselves just to collect tech a la the classic Brotherhood would have been the death of them. Not only would that lead to them telling the Lone Wanderer and Dr. Li to get lost, but the Enclave would seize Project Purity and get it working, Autumn would rally local settlements to the Enclave's side, and after the Enclave takes the Capital Wasteland, they'd finish off the Brotherhood of Steel. And since the LW doesn't bring Dr. Li to the Brotherhood, Liberty Prime never activates, meaning that the BoS would be fresh meat for the grinder when the Enclave rips them to shreds with advanced power armor and energy weapons, not to mention superior numbers.

Lyons set the stage for the commoners accepting Brotherhood control over DC. If anything, that's what made it easier for the Brotherhood to take over. The fact that Arthur Maxson discarded that in favor of technophobia and forcing settlements to hand over grain goes to show he didn't learn squat from his ex-waifu and her father's tenure over the Brotherhood. The BoS in Fallout 3 serves as noble protectors of the populace, and people flock to their banner. The BoS in Fallout 4 acts like jack-booted thugs who confiscate grain from the populace and shoot synths on sight, and everyone from the Minutemen to the Railroad and the Institute want them dead. They went from being both noble AND cunning in getting most of the wasteland to accept them as protectors, to arrogant jackasses whose idiocy turns all factions against them. Heck, placing all their assets on an airship is them practically asking the enemy "hey, if you want to fuck us over, here's a perfect target!"

No, it is awkward that the Brotherhood barely made an effect in 2. Especially considering that the Enclave in Fallout 2 is everything Roger Maxson despised: some political faction that emerged after the war, that wants to continue the cycle of violence on a catastrophic scale. That should have caused them to go on a fatwa against the Enclave in Fallout 2. Sure, they'd lay low for a while, but it would make more sense if they ambushed Enclave patrols out in the wasteland while trying to steal as much pieces of Enclave tech as possible. They wouldn't leave everything for some random tribal to destroy the enemy while they sat with their thumbs up their asses. The idealistic part of the Brotherhood would look at the Enclave and see everything wrong with America that caused Roger Maxson to desert the US Army. The pragmatic, tech-hoarding part of the Brotherhood would be licking its lips at the sight of Vertibirds and Enclave Power Armor and would want those pieces of tech, enough that they'd probably ambush Enclave patrols out in the wild so they can take those power armor suits for themselves.

At least in Fallout 3, the Brotherhood had a giant robot to hide behind, and by the time Liberty Prime is destroyed, they've taken enough Enclave tech from the Enclave forces at Project Purity that they can join in on the assault at Adams Air Force Base to distract the Enclave forces so the Lone Wanderer can enter the Mobile Base Crawler and start tearing shit up.

New Vegas had the Brotherhood as a faction that all other factions will bump into. If you didn't bump into them on your own, you sure as hell will once your faction leader or your pet AI tells you that they're a threat. In Fallout 1, they were also necessary in the quest against the Master and the Super Mutants. But as I said, in Fallout 3, all the veteran BoS Paladins hang out at the Citadel, while they send fresh meat to the grinder against Super Mutants. It makes them look cool in the eyes of the public, it shows that they're doing something about the Super Mutant threat, while conserving their more experienced members and keeping them from getting killed. So no shit, they're not hitting the Super Mutants with everything they've got.

I'm pretty sure that even without the Sole Survivor, the Minutemen and the Brotherhood would eventually come to blows. The Brotherhood has their recruits forcibly confiscate grain from the populace. Eventually, people will complain to Preston Garvey and the Minutemen will start conducting hit-and-run attacks on the BoS. That, and the BoS is hostile to any non-human life form, be they sapient ghouls or synths who have settled down with society, so there would obviously be friction between them and the Minutemen who fancy themselves as the defenders of the locals, just as Owyn Lyons became hostile to the Enclave the moment the Enclave forces showed up and started bossing people around.

I mostly mean there's never that spark that ignites hostilities between the groups in the first place outside of player shenanigans. There's no moment where the Brotherhood shows up to strongarm a local settlement (possibly Sanctuary) for some food and the Minutemen muster and tell them no and after a tense standoff the shot heard round the Commonwealth is fired. Instead the General goes out and provokes the Brotherhood runs back to Preston and tells him we need kill them all and please don't ask where I got this new fancy coat. While you are right conflict between the groups seems likely how it actually ends up happening is kind of silly, especially when you consider on the Brotherhood path they never start shit with the Minutemen.

That spark would have eventually been lit, even if the Sole Survivor died in Vault 111. The fact that the BoS sends the Sole Survivor to loot local towns for food means that they would send their own men to do it if they didn't have expendable fresh meat like the SS on hand. Eventually, news of such extortion would reach the Minutemen, as well as other groups like the Railroad, and they'd organize a fight against the BoS.

Ironically, the one thing that can unite the Railroad and the Institute would be a BoS invasion. Take the SS out of the equation, and have the BoS show up, harassing locals for food and gunning down synths whether or not they're from the Institute or they're free. That would not only get the Minutemen against them, but the Railroad and the Institute would both be against them too. These factions might even declare a ceasefire just so they can deal with the BoS before going back to hating each other once the Prydwen has been blown out of the sky.

 

[Strange Wilderness]

The Brotherhood and the Enclave going to DC makes sense when one considers two things:

A) there's probably a good amount of pre-war tech lying around the former capital of the nation, not to mention some vaults or bunkers that might have some good secrets.

B) the NCR was taking control of the west, so both the Brotherhood of Steel and the Enclave had to skedaddle and make tracks to go out East. In the case of the Enclave, it's because a new president summoned them there, and reclaiming the capital would be a good first step to rebuilding the United States. They didn't know that their new president happened to be a supercomputer. Only Colonel Autumn's dad knew, and once Autumn Jr. took over, he kept the self-destruct switch for Eden just to make sure that he can kill the guy once Eden is no longer useful. Not to mention that there's no NCR out there, so there's not that much in terms of competition. Had the Lone Wanderer not utterly fucked things into the dirt for them, the Enclave would have won. They would have taken control of the Capital Wasteland and would have used it as a permanent base, which is far more reliable than an oil rig that can blow up if its reactor went haywire. For the Brotherhood, the game makes it clear that the Lyons' Brotherhood is just a BRANCH of the Brotherhood, ie. the Brotherhood sent a division or a regiment to check out things in DC, because DC may have some cool nifty tech for them to salvage. Given that they bumped across Liberty Prime, that assumption proved to be correct.

As for the Lyons' Brotherhood becoming more accepting of outsiders, well, they were losing the war with Super Mutants when they were trying to comb the DC area for tech. So it makes perfect sense for them to recruit wastelanders and fit them in primitive power armor suits to use as meatshields and cannon fodder against the Super Mutants so that the veteran Brotherhood paladins don't all get wiped out. I mean, given how the Outcasts who venture into the ruins get swarmed by Super Mutants (especially that one outpost that started the Anchorage DLC, where if you fast travel there, you find them fighting off Super Mutants) it makes sense why the Lyons' Brotherhood would start recruiting locals and maintain a guise of helping them. But if you notice something, most of the veteran BoS Paladins in DC stay in the Pentagon/Citadel, while many of the guys who go into the thick of battle with Sarah Lyons are initiates and recently-inducted members. Heck, they even hastily inducted the Lone Wanderer into Lyons' Pride and slapped some power armor on him/her so as to use the LW as another bullet-shield along with Liberty Prime. They send out the young guns to get shot at by Super Mutants and Enclave troops, while the senior members get to hang out in DC picking apart the tech they salvage like Liberty Prime.

The Outcasts act as if Owyn Lyons is some bleeding-heart sycophant who bent over backwards for the masses, but his actions were rather practical. His people managed to get outsiders to put on BoS armor and get shot at by the mutants while they conserve the hard-hitting Paladins and keep them from getting wrecked, and they seized a clean water source so as to make sure their forces can monopolize clean water and gain more support from locals. Lyons was a far more practical man than the New Vegas Brotherhood, who know that their end is coming, but they refuse to change unless an outsider pushes them to do so. At least Lyons' Brotherhood are doing things that would A) ensure their survival in the wasteland and B) ensure that the locals support them. Whereas the New Vegas Brotherhood is so idiotic that some lunatic armed with enough heavy weapons can waltz into their bunker one day and eradicate everyone. Whereas if you want to destroy the DC Brotherhood, you'd need a fucking satellite weapon in order to do so.

I agree that the Brotherhood and Enclave both had a very good reason to head back to DC, my main issue is that its a big stretch why and how they got there. I get it, the Brotherhood hoards tech and the former capital of the United States probably has some experimental tech lying around the Pentagon or some other bunker and the Enclave knew someone was summoning them for a reason and they had to get the fuck outta dodge with the NCR and Brotherhood hunting them down. My main issue is that geographically its kinda ludicrous why you would travel all the way across the continent for some Hail Marry chance of finding something in DC which could for all intents and purposes be a radioactive crater. If both groups had gone to Cheyenne mountain or Houston to investigate NASAs HQ I could definitely see that happening because those locations are both withing striking distance of California, vs DC. Its why I said that Lyons Brotherhood should have been the Chicago branch from Tactics that continued trekking East and the Enclave in Raven Rock should have been a separate branch, its a little more believable than the two groups coming from California. The whole situation with the Brotherhood and Enclave in DC feels like taking a shot blindfolded and getting a bullseye. Its doable, possible, it has happened before, but its such a million to one chance that its kinda hard to believe and starts to question my suspension of disbelief.

But where there a bunch of incels larping as romans on the shores of the Colorado River?

Sadly no. The Strip and Fremont St were sadly devoid of street performers due to the pandemic, all I saw were some showgirls, a few terrible musicians who kept hawking their CDS, one game of three-card monty, and a guy in an Olaf costume. Not a single Elvis impersonator in sight and certainly no Fallout cosplays as much as much as I would have loved to meet some.

And I wouldn't call the Legion Incels just because most of them have probably had sex at machete point.

 

[A Grey Cat]

I agree that the Brotherhood and Enclave both had a very good reason to head back to DC, my main issue is that its a big stretch why and how they got there. I get it, the Brotherhood hoards tech and the former capital of the United States probably has some experimental tech lying around the Pentagon or some other bunker and the Enclave knew someone was summoning them for a reason and they had to get the fuck outta dodge with the NCR and Brotherhood hunting them down. My main issue is that geographically its kinda ludicrous why you would travel all the way across the continent for some Hail Marry chance of finding something in DC which could for all intents and purposes be a radioactive crater. If both groups had gone to Cheyenne mountain or Houston to investigate NASAs HQ I could definitely see that happening because those locations are both withing striking distance of California, vs DC. Its why I said that Lyons Brotherhood should have been the Chicago branch from Tactics that continued trekking East and the Enclave in Raven Rock should have been a separate branch, its a little more believable than the two groups coming from California. The whole situation with the Brotherhood and Enclave in DC feels like taking a shot blindfolded and getting a bullseye. Its doable, possible, it has happened before, but its such a million to one chance that its kinda hard to believe and starts to question my suspension of disbelief.


Sadly no. The Strip and Fremont St were sadly devoid of street performers due to the pandemic, all I saw were some showgirls, a few terrible musicians who kept hawking their CDS, one game of three-card monty, and a guy in an Olaf costume. Not a single Elvis impersonator in sight and certainly no Fallout cosplays as much as much as I would have loved to meet some.

And I wouldn't call the Legion Incels just because most of them have probably had sex at machete point.

Ah yeah I'm it's just the whole..women as cattle and inferior to the men folk mentality thing. It makes me think of incels the only difference being in fallout there's no social media or me too movement to call them out for said machete point sex

 

[HeyYou]

Eh... the Brotherhood are actually clear rivals to the Minutemen before any hostilities like that, since they see no issues requisitioning supplies at gunpoint from the local settlements. They're also not at all interested in the Minutemen being an independent peacekeeping force, since they're obviously here to stay judging by all the firepower aboard the Prydwen, the recruitment of locals, and setting up a full field base at the airport. Sooner or later things were going to come to a head anyways, and all the Sole Survivor does is get things moving ahead of time.

No, that is explicitly stated to be unsanctioned. The letter that Kells wrote to Teagan said that he only had permission to initiate trade with the nearby settlements, not extort them. If you ask Teagan if what he's asking you to do is officially okay with Brotherhood leadership, he dodges the answer and says it's complicated. Even still, you can actually complete the mission by just buying crops off the settlers. You don't have to extort them. The guy you quoted is right, the only way the Brotherhood and the Minutemen come into conflict is if you yourself initiate it. For instance, if you do the Minutemen ending and visit the Proctors, they're actually not mad at you. Maxson just says he's busy and you can't open dialogue with him. Still, you're not demoted and you're not kicked out of the Brotherhood, and if you play very carefully you can even end the game as a Paladin, not kill the Railroad, and help the Minutemen blow up the Institute.

 

[LORD IMPERATOR]

I agree that the Brotherhood and Enclave both had a very good reason to head back to DC, my main issue is that its a big stretch why and how they got there. I get it, the Brotherhood hoards tech and the former capital of the United States probably has some experimental tech lying around the Pentagon or some other bunker and the Enclave knew someone was summoning them for a reason and they had to get the fuck outta dodge with the NCR and Brotherhood hunting them down. My main issue is that geographically its kinda ludicrous why you would travel all the way across the continent for some Hail Marry chance of finding something in DC which could for all intents and purposes be a radioactive crater. If both groups had gone to Cheyenne mountain or Houston to investigate NASAs HQ I could definitely see that happening because those locations are both withing striking distance of California, vs DC. Its why I said that Lyons Brotherhood should have been the Chicago branch from Tactics that continued trekking East and the Enclave in Raven Rock should have been a separate branch, its a little more believable than the two groups coming from California. The whole situation with the Brotherhood and Enclave in DC feels like taking a shot blindfolded and getting a bullseye. Its doable, possible, it has happened before, but its such a million to one chance that its kinda hard to believe and starts to question my suspension of disbelief.


Sadly no. The Strip and Fremont St were sadly devoid of street performers due to the pandemic, all I saw were some showgirls, a few terrible musicians who kept hawking their CDS, one game of three-card monty, and a guy in an Olaf costume. Not a single Elvis impersonator in sight and certainly no Fallout cosplays as much as much as I would have loved to meet some.

And I wouldn't call the Legion Incels just because most of them have probably had sex at machete point.

It's not really that much of a stretch. The Enclave was ORDERED to go back to DC by their new president, which they didn't know was an AI. The Brotherhood wanted to salvage tech and looting the capital of the free world of tech sounds like a good idea. And given that both factions got what they wanted at first (Enclave got a new base to rebuild, BoS got Liberty Prime) their gambit paid off. And since there was already a branch of the BoS that occupied Chicago, the next logical step would be to send another branch going further east.

No, that is explicitly stated to be unsanctioned. The letter that Kells wrote to Teagan said that he only had permission to initiate trade with the nearby settlements, not extort them. If you ask Teagan if what he's asking you to do is officially okay with Brotherhood leadership, he dodges the answer and says it's complicated. Even still, you can actually complete the mission by just buying crops off the settlers. You don't have to extort them. The guy you quoted is right, the only way the Brotherhood and the Minutemen come into conflict is if you yourself initiate it. For instance, if you do the Minutemen ending and visit the Proctors, they're actually not mad at you. Maxson just says he's busy and you can't open dialogue with him. Still, you're not demoted and you're not kicked out of the Brotherhood, and if you play very carefully you can even end the game as a Paladin, not kill the Railroad, and help the Minutemen blow up the Institute.

Except if that was the case, Teagan would have just given you the caps the buy food from the settlers. Maxson would just authorize X amount of caps to buy from settlers, or he'd pack enough Lunchables or MREs for the job. What kind of idiot goes to a foreign place without the right amount of food supplies anyways? Plus, Arthur Maxson doesn't even check if one of his new recruits is pilfering crops from the locals. Meaning that if the Sole Survivor didn't steal crops for Teagan, someone else from the Brotherhood would have, especially since he's the quartermaster in charge of supplies, and if Teagan asks it, Maxson would have sent him someone to deal with the supply "problem." Especially since Maxson IS that kind of zealot who believes his mission really is that sacred. What are the lives of a few farmers compared to "saving" the Commonwealth from the Institute and the Synths? The Brotherhood has always prioritized its own mission of "saving humanity from itself" over the lives of actual humans. They've done so in Fallouts 1, 2, and New Vegas, and what makes you think Fallout 4 is any different? Especially when they look down on the Fallout 3 Brotherhood that actively sought to help the locals as heretics?

Getting the ending where the Railroad, Minutemen, and Brotherhood are all tolerating each other requires a lot of busywork on behalf of the player. Which usually wouldn't happen if the player wasn't around. It's like what would have happened between the NCR/Legion and the Brotherhood in New Vegas without the Courier; if either faction won Hoover Dam without the Courier brokering peace between either one and the Brotherhood (cut content suggests you can broker a truce between the Brotherhood and the Legion so long as the former attacks the NCR) they would just come in and eradicate the BoS. Similarly, if the Sole Survivor died in Vault 111, the most likely scenario would be that the Railroad and the Institute would join forces and destroy the Brotherhood (quite easy to do it if you have teleporters, a synth army, and the enemy put all their stuff on an easy-to-destroy airship) before going back to killing each other.

Face it, the Fallout 4 Brotherhood are just assholes, plain and simple. There's good people among their ranks, but it's no different from Eden's Enclave where they hide their genocidal aims beneath a veneer of altruism. Eden's people want all mutated people dead, Maxson wants all Synths dead. They both say they want to save the land, but they just want the untermenschen dead, be they mutated people or synths. And even Fallout 3 establishes that synths are thinking, living beings that deserve to live their own lives in peace.

"He's one of God's creatures, just like you and I. I heard a lot of people are looking for him. That's all I know. May the Lord guide him to safety." -Father Clifford describing the synth, A3-21, from Fallout 3.

 

[Tanner Glass]

I believe Sawyer himself went out and scouted locations for New Vegas (and nearly died after getting bit by either a snake or a scorpion, iirc).

He also became a gun enthusiast during that time and kept a blog about it for a while - but he really went deep into the inner workings of firearms for a while.

It's quite obvious that the NV team did their homework during the making of New Vegas. It really shows the kind of quality love and care that old Obsidian really had in them back in those days-the feel of the Mojave, as well as the attention to detail for the setting and the weaponry goes to show that the Obsidian people who made New Vegas made it as their passion project. I loved them since KOTOR 2 and I loved them for New Vegas.

Too bad Outer Worlds wasn't necessarily their best output.

I largely attribute this to not having Josh on the team.

Funnily enough, Obsidian did something similar in KOTOR 2. If you try to mind trick the Toydarian when landing on Nar Shaddaa it's marked as a success and he plays along, only to call you stupid for thinking that would work. Then you have to pay more for a landing pass, iirc. I agree, it's a cool concept and I always hoped RPGs would do it more, but sadly they really haven't.

This actually happens a lot in KOTOR2 as there is a party member that hates when you use force powers to resolve situations instead of "normal" skill checks.

 

[LORD IMPERATOR]

I largely attribute this to not having Josh on the team.

I attribute it to Chris Avellone being gone. He's the genius behind KOTOR 2 and New Vegas, and it shows. When he was writing the story for those two games, they were grand and insightful tales. Now Outer Worlds is just "CORPORATE MAN BAD!" for 20 hours, the kind of tale that makes Fallout 3 look like Mass Effect 1 by comparison.

 

[MuuMuu Bunnylips]

Funnily enough, Obsidian did something similar in KOTOR 2. If you try to mind trick the Toydarian when landing on Nar Shaddaa it's marked as a success and he plays along, only to call you stupid for thinking that would work. Then you have to pay more for a landing pass, iirc. I agree, it's a cool concept and I always hoped RPGs would do it more, but sadly they really haven't.

So a mind trick mind trick?

 

[Tor Lugosi]

I attribute it to Chris Avellone being gone. He's the genius behind KOTOR 2 and New Vegas, and it shows. When he was writing the story for those two games, they were grand and insightful tales. Now Outer Worlds is just "CORPORATE MAN BAD!" for 20 hours, the kind of tale that makes Fallout 3 look like Mass Effect 1 by comparison.

Avellone was the mastermind behind Sith Lords but he was only a writer for New Vegas, with his biggest contribution to the base game being Cass. His love for the Fallout lore (and his Fallout Bible) probably helped a lot but NV was mostly Sawyer's project.

 

[HeyYou]

Face it, the Fallout 4 Brotherhood are just assholes, plain and simple. There's good people among their ranks, but it's no different from Eden's Enclave where they hide their genocidal aims beneath a veneer of altruism. Eden's people want all mutated people dead, Maxson wants all Synths dead. They both say they want to save the land, but they just want the untermenschen dead, be they mutated people or synths. And even Fallout 3 establishes that synths are thinking, living beings that deserve to live their own lives in peace.

I'm not disputing that they're assholes, I'm disputing that they're assholes who want to steal crops at gunpoint and genocide the Minutemen. Teagan makes it very clear he doesn't really like or see a point in interacting with the wastelanders is why he doesn't really consider outright buying crops an option.

 

[LORD IMPERATOR]

Avellone was the mastermind behind Sith Lords but he was only a writer for New Vegas, with his biggest contribution to the base game being Cass. His love for the Fallout lore (and his Fallout Bible) probably helped a lot but NV was mostly Sawyer's project.

But he left his mark on both games. And I suppose Sawyer's absence also hurt Outer Worlds.

I'm not disputing that they're assholes, I'm disputing that they're assholes who want to steal crops at gunpoint and genocide the Minutemen. Teagan makes it very clear he doesn't really like or see a point in interacting with the wastelanders is why he doesn't really consider outright buying crops an option.

The BoS doesn't give a flying fuck if you got the Minutemen killed fighting the Institute. In fact, they're kinda happy with it. That, and nothing disproves the idea that they want to steal crops at gunpoint. Teagan assigns that task to people, and Maxson does nothing. What, does he eat without asking where the food comes from? Wouldn't it make more sense if he gave Teagan or whomever's trading with locals X amount of bottlecaps to trade with farmers? Or post sentries near farms in exchange for food? The only way the food quest is solved without stealing is if the Sole Survivor himself/herself was loaded and they bought the crops themselves-which the BoS had no way of knowing if you had that much cash on hand or not. It's not like other quests like where the Kings asked you to hire someone to investigate him and they give you 200 caps to go do it.

The BoS has been stealing crops to feed their troops. That's something you can't prove otherwise. At least raiders are honest when they "requisition" food from the farms.

 

[Ruin]

Porter Gage calls the BOS raiders with slightly more legitimacy and his assertion is entirely correct.

 

[HeyYou]

The BoS doesn't give a flying fuck if you got the Minutemen killed fighting the Institute. In fact, they're kinda happy with it.

Quinlan is the only one who says that and it's rather in-character. Every other Proctor is iffy on you having used the Minutemen, but otherwise their dialogue is unchanged from the normal Brotherhood ending and they heap praise on you.

That, and nothing disproves the idea that they want to steal crops at gunpoint. Teagan assigns that task to people, and Maxson does nothing. What, does he eat without asking where the food comes from? Wouldn't it make more sense if he gave Teagan or whomever's trading with locals X amount of bottlecaps to trade with farmers? Or post sentries near farms in exchange for food? The only way the food quest is solved without stealing is if the Sole Survivor himself/herself was loaded and they bought the crops themselves-which the BoS had no way of knowing if you had that much cash on hand or not. It's not like other quests like where the Kings asked you to hire someone to investigate him and they give you 200 caps to go do it.

It's absolutely unsanctioned per Teagan's dialogue, and yes, that means Maxson doesn't ask where the food comes from. Teagan sends a written request to Kells specifically asking to open up trade with the settlers, so for all and intents and purposes that's what the leadership thinks he's doing. Call the leadership clueless and obsessed with killing abominations, sure, but the leadership didn't condone harassing settlers into giving their crops for free.