Fallout series

Quinlan is the only one who says that and it's rather in-character. Every other Proctor is iffy on you having used the Minutemen, but otherwise their dialogue is unchanged from the normal Brotherhood ending and they heap praise on you.


It's absolutely unsanctioned per Teagan's dialogue, and yes, that means Maxson doesn't ask where the food comes from. Teagan sends a written request to Kells specifically asking to open up trade with the settlers, so for all and intents and purposes that's what the leadership thinks he's doing. Call the leadership clueless and obsessed with killing abominations, sure, but the leadership didn't condone harassing settlers into giving their crops for free.
So the Brotherhood praises you for using the Minutemen as pawns against the Institute? Then I am correct.

So you would rather claim that Maxson is a gargantuan imbecile who doesn't care where his dinner came from, rather than say that he is half-intelligent and aware that his men are pilfering the commoners for grain? Yeah, there's no going around this. Either Maxson is a complete dipshit for not even checking where the food comes from, or he subtly approves of what Teagan is doing against the local farmers. Whereas they can easily get grain from the local farmers by sending Brotherhood patrols to protect their farms in exchange for crops, or Maxson could easily approach Teagan and give him X amount of bottlecaps to trade with farms, he just eats and doesn't acknowledge where the food comes from. That leaves us with one of two conclusions: A) he's a complete dipshit who doesn't deserve to run a parade, let alone a military unit, or B) he's a bandit king hiding behind nice words. Either way, he deserves to go down. If he's that much of a colossal idiot, then he is a threat to himself and everyone around him. If he knows what's going on, then he's a glorified bandit who needs to die.

Porter Gage calls the BOS raiders with slightly more legitimacy and his assertion is entirely correct.
How ironic that John Henry Eden's words about the Brotherhood came true.

"The so-called 'Brotherhood of Steel.' Now, don't be fooled by their pseudo-knightly nonsense or supposed connections to the United States Army. These... power-armored boy scouts are nothing more than common criminals with access to some antiquated technology."

He may not have been right in Fallout 3, but he is sure as hell right about them in Fallout: New Vegas and Fallout 4. They're criminals, plain and simple. Lyons' Brotherhood was more of a town watch, and Casdin's people were more akin to scavengers, but the Brotherhood in New Vegas and Fallout 4 aren't anything but raiders and criminals hiding behind flowery words of chivalry. And Eden isn't the only one to see through their chivalrous bullshit:

Caesar: “The worst impulses of mankind, concentrated in one insane, backward tribe. The Brotherhood seems to have formed not long after the great atomic war. It's hard to know - they care little for history. Some of the Brotherhood scribes we captured further East didn't even know the name of their founder, Roger Maxson. They like to pretty up their mission with trappings of chivalry, but the truth is they're hoarders. They hoard technology. It's been 200 years, and they still have the mentality of scavengers. They say they're preserving these technologies, but for what? They have no vision. They offer no future. They're a dead end.”

Robert Edwin House: “They're a terrorist group, basically. Militant, quasi-religious fanatics obsessed with hoarding Pre-War technology. Not all technology, mind you. You don't see them raiding hospitals to cart away Auto-Docs or armfuls of prosthetic organs. No, they greatly prefer the sort of technology that puts people in hospitals. Or graves, rather, since hospitals went the way of the Dodo. We're talking about a coterie of bulging-eyed fanatics who think all Pre-War technology belongs to them. They're ridiculous! They galavant around the Mojave pretending to be Knights of Yore. Or did, until the NCR showed them that ideological purity and shiny power armor don't count for much when you're outnumbered 15:1. The world has no use for emotionally unstable techno-fetishists. Just wipe them out, will you!?”

And of course, in Fallout 4, they've decreed that all synths must die, even after Fallout 3 made it clear that synths are living, thinking, sapient beings:

"He's one of God's creatures, just like you and I. I heard a lot of people are looking for him. That's all I know. May the Lord guide him to safety." -Father Clifford describing the synth, A3-21, from Fallout 3.

So yes, the Brotherhood in Fallout 4 are bad. Plain and simple.
 
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He also became a gun enthusiast during that time and kept a blog about it for a while - but he really went deep into the inner workings of firearms for a while.

That explains why the firearms in New Vegas are so diverse and moddable.

I find it funny how New Vegas has a more unique, interesting, and entertaining list of guns (and ammo) than Fallout 4. When in Fallout 4 they made it a big point to be able to "make your own whacky and unique guns". This just diluted the uniqueness of weapons in that game and also retconned a lot of the lore about weapons. The NCR using AR-15's and pre-war US military weapons and the Legion using makeshift melee weapons and classic western guns were important details that subtly showed you the mindsets of these two factions.

Also, t will never not be fucking cool as hell to hand load Legion denari into 12 gauge shells and "redistribute some wealth" among the Legion ranks. Or using an M1 Garand and BAR along side a plasma caster and mini nuke launcher.
 
That explains why the firearms in New Vegas are so diverse and moddable.

I find it funny how New Vegas has a more unique, interesting, and entertaining list of guns (and ammo) than Fallout 4. When in Fallout 4 they made it a big point to be able to "make your own whacky and unique guns". This just diluted the uniqueness of weapons in that game and also retconned a lot of the lore about weapons. The NCR using AR-15's and pre-war US military weapons and the Legion using makeshift melee weapons and classic western guns were important details that subtly showed you the mindsets of these two factions.

Also, t will never not be fucking cool as hell to hand load Legion denari into 12 gauge shells and "redistribute some wealth" among the Legion ranks. Or using an M1 Garand and BAR along side a plasma caster and mini nuke launcher.
Too bad Outer Worlds knocked back on that and just had the Mass Effect method of "upgraded version of the gun you picked up earlier."
 
No, it is awkward that the Brotherhood barely made an effect in 2. Especially considering that the Enclave in Fallout 2 is everything Roger Maxson despised: some political faction that emerged after the war, that wants to continue the cycle of violence on a catastrophic scale. That should have caused them to go on a fatwa against the Enclave in Fallout 2. Sure, they'd lay low for a while, but it would make more sense if they ambushed Enclave patrols out in the wasteland while trying to steal as much pieces of Enclave tech as possible. They wouldn't leave everything for some random tribal to destroy the enemy while they sat with their thumbs up their asses. The idealistic part of the Brotherhood would look at the Enclave and see everything wrong with America that caused Roger Maxson to desert the US Army. The pragmatic, tech-hoarding part of the Brotherhood would be licking its lips at the sight of Vertibirds and Enclave Power Armor and would want those pieces of tech, enough that they'd probably ambush Enclave patrols out in the wild so they can take those power armor suits for themselves.

I'm pretty sure that even without the Sole Survivor, the Minutemen and the Brotherhood would eventually come to blows. The Brotherhood has their recruits forcibly confiscate grain from the populace. Eventually, people will complain to Preston Garvey and the Minutemen will start conducting hit-and-run attacks on the BoS. That, and the BoS is hostile to any non-human life form, be they sapient ghouls or synths who have settled down with society, so there would obviously be friction between them and the Minutemen who fancy themselves as the defenders of the locals, just as Owyn Lyons became hostile to the Enclave the moment the Enclave forces showed up and started bossing people around.



That spark would have eventually been lit, even if the Sole Survivor died in Vault 111. The fact that the BoS sends the Sole Survivor to loot local towns for food means that they would send their own men to do it if they didn't have expendable fresh meat like the SS on hand. Eventually, news of such extortion would reach the Minutemen, as well as other groups like the Railroad, and they'd organize a fight against the BoS.
One thing I forgot about is that the mutants in 87 were actually running low if not completely out of the FEV there were using to make more mutants in the first place, making Lyon's long term plans way more viable in the first place. Makes me wonder just how many mutants must have been roaming around when Lyons was told to establish a base there.

That's exactly what the Brotherhood ended up doing. When they got their opening and the Enclave was scattered and broken the Brotherhood went after them and hunted them down to steal their tech. Prior to this the Brotherhood was planning for its war. Its several days march from Lost Hills to Navarro and you can't march to the oil rig at all. The Brotherhood was facing superior weapons, armor, and mobility. Any serious troop movements made against the Enclave would take time to see through with them having to trek across desert wasteland with water and food provisions while the Enclave could cover that ground much faster and encircle the Brotherhood forces too. If the Brotherhood was going to go to war against the Enclave they'd need vertibirds and that was the primary objective at this point. We never get to see what their objectives after that were because the Enclave threat had its back broken thanks to the Chosen One rolling up and taking care of business.

If anyone is to blame for the Brotherhood not assisting during the assault on the rig its CO. Unlike VD who made a point of going to the Elders to get their assistance for a raid on the mutants, CO never went to Lost Hills. Can we really expect the Elders who were several days away and never met CO to be up to date on CO's plans to attack the rig and coordinate a timely assault? Don't forget the one man in the Brotherhood who was aware of CO's existence was murdered leaving the Brotherhood in the dark. I think the Brotherhood was taking its time to act covertly without tipping the Enclave off because if they drew attention to themselves in any way the Enclave would have struck first and wiped them out. The only problem with the Brotherhood's slow and steady method was CO showed up and got shit done without them.


With the Sole Survivor dead the Minutemen would never have come back in any real strength though. Any resistance to the Brotherhood would have been whatever the local settlement could scrape together with no real mutual support. The Railroad would fight them but going on the fact with or without the Sole Survivor the Brotherhood attacks the Railroad HQ I'd think the Railroad would lose that war.

My gripe here is that I'd feel more comfortable if the flashpoint for the war was depicted in game rather then left to a hypothetical possibility with the Minutemen(Or the General) basically starting the war with petty aggression so they can use any hostility on the part of the Brotherhood to morally justify bombardment of the Brotherhood. Preston strikes me as the type not to go to war without declaring it first and his preemptive strike on the Brotherhood seems at odds with his character to me. Ronnie Shaw would absolutely do it but Preston seems like it would take more then the General pointing for him to blow the Brotherhood and all its noncombatants out of the sky no questions asked.

I'm also willing to believe a symbiotic relationship between the two groups could be reached if the Sole Survivor made the effort or I guess more accurately had the capability to do such a thing.

Its a missed opportunity that the only interaction we get between these two main factions is either literally nothing or the player baiting the Brotherhood into their own genocide.
 
One thing I forgot about is that the mutants in 87 were actually running low if not completely out of the FEV there were using to make more mutants in the first place, making Lyon's long term plans way more viable in the first place. Makes me wonder just how many mutants must have been roaming around when Lyons was told to establish a base there.

That's exactly what the Brotherhood ended up doing. When they got their opening and the Enclave was scattered and broken the Brotherhood went after them and hunted them down to steal their tech. Prior to this the Brotherhood was planning for its war. Its several days march from Lost Hills to Navarro and you can't march to the oil rig at all. The Brotherhood was facing superior weapons, armor, and mobility. Any serious troop movements made against the Enclave would take time to see through with them having to trek across desert wasteland with water and food provisions while the Enclave could cover that ground much faster and encircle the Brotherhood forces too. If the Brotherhood was going to go to war against the Enclave they'd need vertibirds and that was the primary objective at this point. We never get to see what their objectives after that were because the Enclave threat had its back broken thanks to the Chosen One rolling up and taking care of business.

If anyone is to blame for the Brotherhood not assisting during the assault on the rig its CO. Unlike VD who made a point of going to the Elders to get their assistance for a raid on the mutants, CO never went to Lost Hills. Can we really expect the Elders who were several days away and never met CO to be up to date on CO's plans to attack the rig and coordinate a timely assault? Don't forget the one man in the Brotherhood who was aware of CO's existence was murdered leaving the Brotherhood in the dark. I think the Brotherhood was taking its time to act covertly without tipping the Enclave off because if they drew attention to themselves in any way the Enclave would have struck first and wiped them out. The only problem with the Brotherhood's slow and steady method was CO showed up and got shit done without them.


With the Sole Survivor dead the Minutemen would never have come back in any real strength though. Any resistance to the Brotherhood would have been whatever the local settlement could scrape together with no real mutual support. The Railroad would fight them but going on the fact with or without the Sole Survivor the Brotherhood attacks the Railroad HQ I'd think the Railroad would lose that war.

My gripe here is that I'd feel more comfortable if the flashpoint for the war was depicted in game rather then left to a hypothetical possibility with the Minutemen(Or the General) basically starting the war with petty aggression so they can use any hostility on the part of the Brotherhood to morally justify bombardment of the Brotherhood. Preston strikes me as the type not to go to war without declaring it first and his preemptive strike on the Brotherhood seems at odds with his character to me. Ronnie Shaw would absolutely do it but Preston seems like it would take more then the General pointing for him to blow the Brotherhood and all its noncombatants out of the sky no questions asked.

I'm also willing to believe a symbiotic relationship between the two groups could be reached if the Sole Survivor made the effort or I guess more accurately had the capability to do such a thing.

Its a missed opportunity that the only interaction we get between these two main factions is either literally nothing or the player baiting the Brotherhood into their own genocide.
That's why the mutants are all over in DC in Fallout 3. They're trying to find FEV and they're scouring the place for it.

And that part with the Chosen One just eradicating the Enclave just made things look stupid for the Enclave. The last bastion of America, the most advanced faction-destroyed by one lousy tribal. And people say Luke Skywalker destroying the Death Star was ridiculous-at least that brat had the advantage of actual psychic powers that most people thought were lost by then. At least in Fallout 3, they lost to a powerful hero AND a giant robot, with the Brotherhood of Steel providing covering fire for both. It makes more sense that way, instead of the entire Enclave losing to some dumb tribal.

The fact that the Brotherhood weren't keeping tabs on the Enclave on their own is ridiculous and stupid. Not only did the ending of the first game imply that they opened up and helped locals understand antiquated tech, but A) the Enclave represents everything Roger Maxson despised, and B) their power armor and Vertibirds are prime targets for tech-hoarders. Again, I can understand the BoS not going on a full frontal assault, but an ambush here, an assassination there, that would have allowed at least some Enclave tech to fall into their hands. I mean, the Chosen One managed to get their hands on Enclave power armor. What's to stop a crack team of BoS Paladins from killing an Enclave scouting patrol and grabbing that armor for themselves so they can study it?

The Railroad wouldn't be alone in fighting the Brotherhood, the Institute would get involved as well, especially since the Institute IS the main target of Arthur Maxson's Brotherhood. He'd devote more time to fighting them than the Railroad, and of course, that would mean a long, bloody war between the Institute and its Synth army and the Brotherhood and its Paladins, with the Railroad striking at both sides from the shadows.

The Brotherhood made it clear as crystal that they want all Synths dead. That means that not only would the Institute go to war with them, but also the Railroad and any Synth that settled down like Nick Valentine. The Brotherhood would have the Institute Synths attacking and infiltrating their ranks, (kidnap a trusted paladin, for instance, and replace him with a synth to infiltrate the Prydwen) but the Railroad would also harass Brotherhood patrols to defend Synths who have broken free of Institute programming and are living normal lives.
 
To be fair to the BoS, after the CO breaks their back at the oil rig, and before relations with the NCR completely fall apart they launch a joint raid on Navarro with them which despite the Enclave getting wrecked at the rig is still an unbelievably bloody fight for both sides, and presumably fighting over the tech there is what causes the schism, since the NCR (most likely through the Shi), ended up with a vertibird for the President as their personal transport, Bear Force One, so the BoS obviously got shafted somehow.
 
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So the Brotherhood praises you for using the Minutemen as pawns against the Institute? Then I am correct.
No, one guy does. One singular guy. You can watch a video on post-game dialogue or read the txt files if you want. He even directly states that the other Brotherhood members don't agree with using the Minutemen to do it. Whether it's because they wanted the honor of doing it themselves, didn't believe the Minutemen were up to the task, or didn't want people in harm's way is up to your interpretation and probably varies by person.

So you would rather claim that Maxson is a gargantuan imbecile who doesn't care where his dinner came from, rather than say that he is half-intelligent and aware that his men are pilfering the commoners for grain? Yeah, there's no going around this. Either Maxson is a complete dipshit for not even checking where the food comes from, or he subtly approves of what Teagan is doing against the local farmers. Whereas they can easily get grain from the local farmers by sending Brotherhood patrols to protect their farms in exchange for crops, or Maxson could easily approach Teagan and give him X amount of bottlecaps to trade with farms, he just eats and doesn't acknowledge where the food comes from. That leaves us with one of two conclusions: A) he's a complete dipshit who doesn't deserve to run a parade, let alone a military unit, or B) he's a bandit king hiding behind nice words. Either way, he deserves to go down. If he's that much of a colossal idiot, then he is a threat to himself and everyone around him. If he knows what's going on, then he's a glorified bandit who needs to die.
Uh, no, he's not an imbecile, he's entirely focused on his mission in the Commonwealth, as is most of the Brotherhood. It's also stated that despite returning to hardline BoS policies, he still has a soft spot for Lyons and kept some of his ideals intact, which doesn't really lend itself well to him approving of you threatening to murder settlers for free food. I'm not sure where you get the idea that anyone but you is pilfering the commoners because that's not really supported by the game. Once again, there's literally a document in the game where Teagan asks for permission to do what you're saying they should do: protect the common people and then trade with them, getting good deals in the process. Teagan then sends soldiers to pick up the food that he asks you procure, and he leaves it up to you how to do it, with an implicit suggestion that you do it forcefully. Teagan is quite a piece of shit for that, but that's not an organizational belief of the Brotherhood because he specifically states that this isn't sanctioned by the Brotherhood. No one but you is aware of how the food actually ended up getting procured. There's a lot of great criticism of the Brotherhood in New Vegas (and oddly in some places in 4 considering how 3 treated them) without demonizing them for shit they didn't actually do. I never thought I'd be defending the Fallout 4 BoS of all fucking factions but here I am.

Also, the four people quoted for the BoS being terrible people are people that are either very morally ambiguous or even outright worse than every iteration of the BoS. That's the great thing about Fallout, outside of a few cases every faction should be understandable and able to be supported, at least as the lesser of evils.
 
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No, one guy does. One singular guy. You can watch a video on post-game dialogue or read the txt files if you want. He even directly states that the other Brotherhood members don't agree with using the Minutemen to do it. Whether it's because they wanted the honor of doing it themselves, didn't believe the Minutemen were up to the task, or didn't want people in harm's way is up to your interpretation and probably varies by person.

Uh, no, he's not an imbecile, he's entirely focused on his mission in the Commonwealth, as is most of the Brotherhood. It's also stated that despite returning to hardline BoS policies, he still has a soft spot for Lyons and kept some of his ideals intact, which doesn't really lend itself well to him approving of you threatening to murder settlers for free food. I'm not sure where you get the idea that anyone but you is pilfering the commoners because that's not really supported by the game. Once again, there's literally a document in the game where Teagan asks for permission to do what you're saying they should do: protect the common people and then trade with them, getting good deals in the process. Teagan then sends soldiers to pick up the food that he asks you procure, and he leaves it up to you how to do it, with an implicit suggestion that you do it forcefully. Teagan is quite a piece of shit for that, but that's not an organizational belief of the Brotherhood because he specifically states that this isn't sanctioned by the Brotherhood. No one but you is aware of how the food actually ended up getting procured. There's a lot of great criticism of the Brotherhood in New Vegas (and oddly in some places in 4 considering how 3 treated them) without demonizing them for shit they didn't actually do. I never thought I'd be defending the Fallout 4 BoS of all fucking factions but here I am.

Also, the four people quoted for the BoS being terrible people are people that are either very morally ambiguous or even outright worse than every iteration of the BoS. That's the great thing about Fallout, outside of a few cases every faction should be understandable and able to be supported, at least as the lesser of evils.

It doesn't seem like those other Brotherhood members objected loudly enough. Maybe some wanted Synth blood on their hands?

Uh, yes, Maxson IS an imbecile. Part of managing a large military force that moves from one place to another is MANAGING FOOD SUPPLIES. Any idiot with two brain cells to rub would already have a strategy for ensuring his men would have food in their stomachs, be it through packing enough food for the journey, or packing enough cash and goods to trade with outsiders for food, while journeying through towns and cities that would have food. Leaving the food supply matter up to one dipshit without even checking where he gets the food goes to show that Maxson is a colossal idiot. Either that, or he knows what Teagan is up to and just turns a blind eye because he thinks it's for the greater good. One scenario makes Elder Maxson out to be a complete moron who doesn't deserve the privilege of commanding a parade, let alone a military outfit with energy weapons and power armor. The other makes him just another glorified bandit leader who deserves to be shot.

Again, if Maxson does have a strategy for getting food without banditry, he'd just hand Teagan X amount of caps or goods and tell him to send someone to go use that stuff to trade with people for food. Or just post Brotherhood sentries around farms in exchange for crops. It would have been nice to see the BoS trying to appeal to commoners in the Commonwealth by sending guys to wipe out raiders who menace farms while leaving behind power-armored troops to guard said farms, and the grateful farmers send crops and meat up to the Prydwen as thanks. Or you see the farmers going to the Prydwen to pay the Brotherhood protection money in the form of caps and crops just to keep the bandits off their farms, mafia-style. Neither is a reality. You just have Teagan telling the player to confiscate food from the populace forcibly, and Maxson is either turning a blind eye to it, or he's none the wiser. Which goes to show that he's either evil, or clueless. For all you know, the Institute could have a synth replace a local farmer and sell poisoned grain to the Brotherhood for a discount price, then the next day, Maxson and everyone aboard the Prydwen turns up dead. This proves that Maxson really is just a fucking idiot.

If this was Lyons' Brotherhood, they'd be performing security services for the locals pro bono, and the locals would support them by sending them supplies. Kind of like how GNR serves as the BoS' propaganda mill because they provide security for them, except instead of an obnoxious radio jockey spreading pro-Brotherhood messages, you have grateful farmers shipping crops to the Prydwen. That, and everyone aboard the Prydwen sees the Lyons' Brotherhood as a joke that they won't repeat, so no, they didn't take the ideals of Lyons, they shat all over it while praising Maxson for putting them back on the "right" path.

New Vegas sees the Brotherhood as the scum they rightfully are, and all factions want them dead. Of course, the game still gives you the option of working for them, but it hides nothing about how bad the Brotherhood really is, with the ruler of New Vegas calling them terrorists, and with both of the major factions wanting them dead for perfectly valid reasons; Caesar sees them as a dead end, which you yourself can see clearly when Veronica warns the Elder that they're headed for ruin, but he refuses to change even though he understand the truth of Veronica's words. The NCR rightfully wants the Brotherhood dead because the BoS tried to knock them out for daring to use Enclave tech to help rebuild America. The idea that American descendants should be allowed to use American technology to rebuild America was offensive to the West Coast Brotherhood, and that caused the Brotherhood-NCR War that continues all the way to New Vegas.

The Fallout 4 Brotherhood is even worse; at least the New Vegas Brotherhood will leave you alone if you don't cross paths with them, but the FO4 Brotherhood practically declared that all Synths are to be terminated. This despite the fact that Fallout 3 made it clear that Synths are living, thinking beings that deserve to choose their own paths. Quite literally, if you replace mutated people with Synths, the Brotherhood suddenly has the same ideology as the fucking Enclave from Fallouts 2 and 3. Stealing crops from locals is hardly the worst of their crimes; even if they bought the crops from the farms, that still doesn't erase the fact that they're evil pieces of shit for wanting to genocide an entire race of sapient beings just because they were made, not born. If they wanted to be good, the Brotherhood could have easily signed on with the Railroad to break the Institute's power over the Synths and give the Synths free will while settling them in new lives instead of just having them replace living people. Quite literally, the Brotherhood in Fallout 4 is just as bad as the Enclave was at its worst. They're the kind of villain that makes Augustus Autumn look like Santa Claus by comparison.

None of these guys are worse than any iteration of the BoS. Father Clifford is an outright saint who wants to do good with everyone in Rivet City. Robert Edwin House is more of a neutral fellow, who just wants order and peace in New Vegas and the Mojave at any cost. Edward "Caesar" Sallow might be harsh towards conquered tribes and their women, but he plays fair with the civilized communities of the Arizona and the east, many of whom live peacefully under Caesar and whose trade caravans remain unmolested due to Legion protection. None of these guys are calling a fatwa on an entire race of beings or stealing crops and livestock from citizens at gunpoint. In fact, House and Caesar practically ensure that the people living under their rule get to keep their crops.

As for John Henry Eden, well, as I described, Maxson is no different from him. Arthur Maxson wants all Synths dead, Eden wants all Super Mutants dead. Except Eden actually has a justification for his desire when compared to Maxson, since at the time, both the Lyons' Brotherhood and the Enclave forces under Eden's command cannot contain the Super Mutant infestation in DC. While the Lyons' BoS are fighting the mutants block by block, Eden wants to clean the slate and start over by killing all the mutants by installing the FEV in the water purifier. Meanwhile, the Synths are no threat to the Brotherhood at all. They're a nuisance to the Commonwealth, but one can easily join the Railroad to get the Synths off Institute programming so that they can live their own lives instead of copying someone else's. Maxson wants them all dead, for reasons that boggle the mind. Even the New Vegas BoS would probably try to capture them instead so they can study them and the advanced tech that leads to the creation of Synths. Eden wants to commit genocide out of desperation. Maxson just wants to commit genocide based on his own superstitions.
 
The NCR didn't want them dead, Moore did. The ending where you make a truce with the Brotherhood has both sides honor it faithfully. I think your argumentative problem is that you see factions as a hivemind in Fallout, when the games usually tend to show that factions are ultimately just a bunch of people. If Moore reflected the entire NCR they would be nearly as evil as you claim the Brotherhood is.
 
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The NCR didn't want them dead, Moore did. The ending where you make a truce with the Brotherhood has both sides honor it faithfully. I think your argumentative problem is that you see factions as a hivemind in Fallout, when the games usually tend to show that factions are ultimately just a bunch of people. If Moore reflected the entire NCR they would be nearly as evil as you claim the Brotherhood is.
The NCR wanted the Brotherhood dead. The two factions were AT WAR, after all. Moore was only relaying orders from the top. She's a yes-woman, not a maverick. You can arrange for a diplomatic alliance between the two, but even if you get the Mojave Brotherhood to make peace with the NCR, their superiors back in California are still waging war with the NCR, with the NCR getting closer and closer to eradicating them all back in Lost Hills. That, and if the Courier didn't exist or intervene, then yes, the NCR would have finished off the Brotherhood after wiping out Caesar's Legion, and the Legion would likewise eradicate the Brotherhood if they won in Hoover Dam. Also, no, wanting to wipe out a bunch of backwards savages who shoot or enslave people on sight with bomb collars is not evil. It's called being trigger-happy, but not evil. Moore's about as evil as your standard RPG hero who kills bandits when he sees them.
 
The NCR wanted the Brotherhood dead. The two factions were AT WAR, after all. Moore was only relaying orders from the top. She's a yes-woman, not a maverick. You can arrange for a diplomatic alliance between the two, but even if you get the Mojave Brotherhood to make peace with the NCR, their superiors back in California are still waging war with the NCR, with the NCR getting closer and closer to eradicating them all back in Lost Hills. That, and if the Courier didn't exist or intervene, then yes, the NCR would have finished off the Brotherhood after wiping out Caesar's Legion, and the Legion would likewise eradicate the Brotherhood if they won in Hoover Dam.
Hmm, that most be why Moore says that Crocker will be giddy at establishing a diplomatic relationship with the Brotherhood, apparently the NCR as a faction just wanted them genocided.
 
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Hmm, that most be why Moore says that Crocker will be giddy at establishing a diplomatic relationship with the Brotherhood, apparently the NCR as a faction just wanted them genocided.
That's because Crocker is a diplomat. Whenever things are settled peacefully, he's happy. Whereas the NCR military outright mocks Crocker, with troopers making jokes about him all the time.

"Fucking Crocker couldn't find his ass if it wasn't on his backside."
-NCR trooper joke about Crocker

"Crocker can kiss my fine NCR ass!"
-female NCR trooper dancing in front of the Ultra-Luxe fountain

Also, nobody in the NCR complains if the BoS got wiped out. All they'll say is that it's good that the BoS stopped engaging them.

And again, if the Courier didn't befriend both the NCR and the Brotherhood and get them to make peace, guess what? The BoS-NCR war continues after the Legion is kicked out, and the NCR finishes the job it started in Helios One.
 
And again, if the Courier didn't befriend both the NCR and the Brotherhood and get them to make peace, guess what? The BoS-NCR war continues after the Legion is kicked out, and the NCR finishes the job it started in Helios One.
There is no ending in the game where the Brotherhood is left alone by the Courier and the NCR finishes them off. Either you kill them, make a truce, or the NCR is driven out of the Mojave.

And, uh, yeah, obviously Crocker is a diplomat and would prefer a peaceful solution. He also answers to the higher ups. It's almost like the NCR is full of a bunch of people who want different things. And I'm genuinely mind boggled that you don't consider Moore evil when she is literally the one who gives you the idea to blow the reactor up, which kills innocent children. You are the one who has to kill each member individually and leave the bunker standing to not do that.
 
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There is no ending in the game where the Brotherhood is left alone by the Courier and the NCR finishes them off. Either you kill them, make a truce, or the NCR is driven out of the Mojave.

And, uh, yeah, obviously Crocker is a diplomat and would prefer a peaceful solution. He also answers to the higher ups. It's almost like the NCR is full of a bunch of people who want different things. And I'm genuinely mind boggled that you don't consider Moore evil when she is literally the one who gives you the idea to blow the reactor up, which kills innocent children. You are the one who has to kill each member individually and leave the bunker standing to not do that.
There doesn't need to be. The BoS-NCR war is still going on by the time of New Vegas, and nobody on either side is willing to make a truce. What do you think will happen if the Courier died, but the NCR won in Hoover Dam a second time? They'll leave the BoS alone? Please. Even the Elder knows his people's time is coming, and Veronica knows it too. Yet they refuse to change, unless a Courier who's in good with both the NCR and the BoS gets them both to break bread.

There aren't any kids in that bunker. I should know, because I did both scenarios where A) I killed them all personally, and B) I worked with them and earned their trust. The power of reloading saves. The youngest is Veronica, who is definitely not a kid anymore. And she's not even there when the bunker goes BOOM! That, and you can just slaughter the inhabitants of the bunker, which will be enough for whomever you're working for. They only give you the "blow up the bunker" idea if you're more into stealth instead of slaughtering every last motherfucker you come across. Which I don't understand, massacring them is positively therapeutic after all my Courier went through dealing with them. I suppose it's for the players who don't have enough firepower to kill 20 paladins like I do, mostly stealth builds that aren't as heavily armed and armored as my Enclave Courier, who usually walks around looking like this:

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There aren't any kids in that bunker. I should know, because I did both scenarios where A) I killed them all personally, and B) I worked with them and earned their trust. The power of reloading saves. The youngest is Veronica, who is definitely not a kid anymore. And she's not even there when the bunker goes BOOM! That, and you can just slaughter the inhabitants of the bunker, which will be enough for whomever you're working for. They only give you the "blow up the bunker" idea if you're more into stealth instead of slaughtering every last motherfucker you come across. Which I don't understand, massacring them is positively therapeutic after all my Courier went through dealing with them. I suppose it's for the players who don't have enough firepower to kill 20 paladins like I do.
Buddy, Veronica specifically says many members don't approve of her and her lover being lesbians because she can't have kids and they think women are obligated to procreate. The bunker is the only stable place for the Brotherhood in New Vegas. Put two and two together. There are only seven children in all of New Vegas but that doesn't mean they're not around. You don't really believe Primm, for instance, consists only of 20 random people with no kids, right?
 
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Buddy, Veronica specifically says many members don't approve of her and her lover being lesbians because she can't have kids and they think women are obligated to procreate. The bunker is the only stable place for the Brotherhood in New Vegas. Put two and two together. There are only seven children in all of New Vegas but that doesn't mean they're not around. You don't really believe Primm, for instance, consists only of 20 random people with no kids, right?
Quite literally, when I WORKED for the Brotherhood, I didn't find any snot-nosed brats running around the bunker. And don't tell me they couldn't put that in, there's fucking kids all over Freeside and I feed them giant rat meat every time I shoot a rat. That, and maybe all their kids got lost after they lost Helios One? Maybe the NCR captured them and shipped them off to orphanages out west, and the only people left in the Hidden Valley bunker are adults? We don't see kids in the bunker whether or not we ally with the Mojave BoS. All we see are armed adults who shoot on sight.
 
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Doesn't mean they don't have other places in the west where they keep their kids. Quite literally, when I WORKED for them, I didn't find any snot-nosed brats running around the bunker. And don't tell me they couldn't put that in, there's fucking kids all over Freeside and I feed them giant rat meat every time I shoot a rat.
The game specifically mentions no one is allowed to leave the bunker except on tightly approved patrols, there's no other place to keep kids. The only two kids in Freeside are Max and Stacey, the rat respawns every time you kill it and they start chasing it again. Once again, there's straight up only seven children in all of New Vegas, and several locations are missing kids despite the fact that they should be there. It doesn't mean, lore wise, they aren't there.
 
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The game specifically mentions no one is allowed to leave the bunker except on tightly approved patrols, there's no other place to keep kids. The only two kids in Freeside are Max and Stacey, the rat respawns every time you kill it and they start chasing it again. Once again, there's straight up only seven children in all of New Vegas, and several locations are missing kids despite the fact that they should be there. It doesn't mean, lore wise, they aren't there.
You also forgot that the bunker has an alarm system that goes off before the self-destruct. So I'm sure those kids would have left before the bunker exploded. If there were kids at all, because again, the Brotherhood lost previously at Helios One and their kids could have been taken from there to the west. And again, there's no kids inside the bunker, nor do the people inside speak of kids at all. They're a military detachment sent there to collect tech in the region, not breed a new race of expendable buffoons. If anything, most of their kids are probably still back out west near Lost Hills.
 
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The Steel Dawn update for Fallout 76 straight up has the BoS NPCs come from California, fuck me. The Brotherhood shouldn't even be emerging from Lost Hills in any major capacity for another twenty years, but apparently they have the resources to send a team across the fucking country to reestablish the Appalachian chapter when that makes no sense tactically. The radio broadcast explanation for why there's a Brotherhood chapter this early on the east coast strained disbelief but they really don't give a fuck anymore.
 
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