Unpopular Opinions About Western Animation

[A Grey Cat]

The 1970s was not the worst decade of western animation. It was mediocre at best

 

[Pokemonquistador2]

The 1970s was not the worst decade of western animation. It was mediocre at best

It had some gems. Nelvana made some good animated specials and Topcraft (the Japanese studio that later became Studio Ghibli) worked on some memorable animation (like the Rankin-Bass Hobbit.) Then you had Ralph Bakshi whose style (although it seemed experimental and sloppy to some) at least expanded the public consciousness of what cartoons could be.

 

[Trilby]

It had some gems. Nelvana made some good animated specials and Topcraft (the Japanese studio that later became Studio Ghibli) worked on some memorable animation (like the Rankin-Bass Hobbit.) Then you had Ralph Bakshi whose style (although it seemed experimental and sloppy to some) at least expanded the public consciousness of what cartoons could be.

Yes, the 70's had some notable examples. Animation sorta went underground and had to be discovered individually.

 

[Vyse Inglebard]

The Lilo & Stitch TV show (and its related media) is trash for taking away everything that made the original movie great, and replacing it with a stock monster-of-the-week/diet Pokemon formula. They did Chris Sanders all types of wrong, and they're continuing to shit on him with each passing day.

The only L&S-related things that're good is the original movie, and Stitch has a Glitch. The rest? Garbage (yes, the Asian spinoffs are trash, too, but that isn't really unpopular in the L&S "fandom").

 

[Trilby]

The Lilo & Stitch TV show (and its related media) is trash for taking away everything that made the original movie great, and replacing it with a stock monster-of-the-week/diet Pokemon formula. They did Chris Sanders all types of wrong, and they're continuing to shit on him with each passing day.

The only L&S-related things that're good is the original movie, and Stitch has a Glitch. The rest? Garbage (yes, the Asian spinoffs are trash, too, but that isn't really unpopular in the L&S "fandom").

There are times where I do feel sorry for Chris Sanders and the way he got treated by the "system".

 

[Clockwork_PurBle]

The 1970s was not the worst decade of western animation. It was mediocre at best

Just from Google, I see:

Watership Down (197-
The Rescuers (1977)
The Aristocats (1970)
Robin Hood (1973)
Charlotte's Web (1973)
Bakshi LOTR (197-
Bakshi Hobbit (1977)

So no I wouldn't say it was the worst, just more "subdued" compared to other decades. Disney had some of their classics before shitting the bed in the 80s.

 

[Vyse Inglebard]

There are times where I do feel sorry for Chris Sanders and the way he got treated by the "system".

They were probably pissed that his movie made the most money despite the relatively little executive interference during the film's development, so they shit it all up as some sort of petty revenge.

 

[Clockwork_PurBle]

Neither are unpopular but the Prince of Egypt is generally great, wish Dreamworks made more good 2D movies. Instead there is just Prince of Egypt, El Dorado, and maybe Spirit

I'm going back through the thread so yes this is old but I wanted to say:

Not to go all "equestrian horse girl" on everyone but Spirit is legitimately good. There is no singing and dancing, the animal main characters only speak using their animal sounds (yet we still somehow know what they are saying), and even without the narration we could understand what was going on. It did not rely on the usual traits of animated kids films (namely Disney) but it was still successful and beloved nonetheless.

ETA: OK I just learned that Dreamworks is uniroincally making a standalone movie sequel that is based on the shitty CGI series that is a mockery of the original film. My stomach flipped.

 

[Dark Emporer Dood]

The 1970s was not the worst decade of western animation. It was mediocre at best

Which decade would you say IS or WAS the worst?

 

[A Grey Cat]

Which decade would you say IS or WAS the worst?

I'd say the late 2010s to now bean mouths have become the new flash, a lazy way to recycle the same character models over and over, reboots that don't understand the source material are everywhere, and do I even need to bring up the wokeness? From Rick and Morty bringing on more "female writers" leadiyto it's worst season to shows like owl city and loud house practically screaming "look at us we have gay non binary brown people, aren't our writers and animators good people? Yay acceptance and tolerance."


Fucking gag me

 

[verygayFrogs]

seeing the other get so easily bashed angers me quite a lot

I see where your coming from but the creator's kind of a creep and the art style puts me off. If it had an artstyle that didn't made me think of problem solvers, then I'd appreciate it more. The stories themselves are charming and good but everything else is offputting.

Also idk if it's unpopular but the Poof special should've been the series finale of FOP (either that or the crossover that ended JN until Planet Sheen came from the depths of hell, but even then I kinda like it because it has a few unique monster designs.)

 

[Pokemonquistador2]

Just from Google, I see:

Watership Down (197-
The Rescuers (1977)
The Aristocats (1970)
Robin Hood (1973)
Charlotte's Web (1973)
Bakshi LOTR (197-
Bakshi Hobbit (1977)

So no I wouldn't say it was the worst, just more "subdued" compared to other decades. Disney had some of their classics before shitting the bed in the 80s.

When people say "Animation from this era was crap", they usually mean to say "The Saturday morning cartoons I saw as a kid were crap." TV animation had lower budgets in the 70s and was little better than flash animation in some places. Cartoons from the 80s had better animation, but a lot of them were just glorified toy commercials with tacked on "educational" segments. It's hard to say "this era was crap" because every era had crap, low budget cartoons. Even the 50s had those super-simplified UPA cartoons that (to some people,) seemed like uninspired scribbles next to the fluidly animated Disney/Warner Bros. shorts that preceded them.

 

[Clockwork_PurBle]

Remember when Disney/Pixar used to make movies like Up and Ratatouille? Hell even Cars?

 

[JonIrenicus]

The Moomins are one of these european creations the japanese adopted and really ran with. Sort of like how Miffy was Dutch in creation but the japanese adored it, eventually making their rip off Hello Kitty.

The 1990 Finnish-Japanese cartoon was always on as a kid, and though many love the moomins i'll never forgive it for the terror it instilled in me. A cuddly, whimsical family of Hippotomuses/Hippopotomi go on extremely dark and lonely adventures that often involve weird and dark beings. It's certainly genius, but I'll always hate it.

 

[Vyse Inglebard]

Remember when Disney/Pixar used to make movies like Up and Ratatouille? Hell even Cars?

I do. Which brings me to my next unpopular animation opinion: Inside Out is not as good as everybody says it is. Why, you ask? Because for such a concept that has literally endless possibilities, what the fuck do they do with it?

"Two characters who don't get along get separated from their home/go on a quest and have to find their way back/go on a journey while learning to appreciate each other and their differences."

Hmmmm, where have I heard that before? Oh yeah, in LITERALLY ALMOST EVERY OTHER PIXAR MOVIE EVER MADE. Except this one takes place in someone's brain, so it's suddenly "deep" and "emotional" or some such shit.

The earliest concept for Inside Out was apparently Riley waking up in Headquarters and meeting her emotions face-to-face. WHY WOULD YOU GET RID OF THAT, THAT SOUNDS MUCH MORE INTERESTING AND THOUGHT-PROVOKING!

I dunno, maybe I'm just being a sperg about this, but after the profound disappointment from Inside Out , I haven't seen a new Pixar movie since, and judging from their current output, it looks like I made the right choice in dipping.

 

[he who has thus come/gone]

The best Disney movie will always be Atlantis: the Lost Empire. It had a great animation style, amazing sound design, a really interesting and fantastical setting, shades of darkness in the plot and characterization totally lacking in modern Disney films, a series of (mostly) sympathetic antagonists, and a cast of unique characters which totally break the stereotypes of western animation.

Seriously, if you just read descriptions of the main cast and plot in retrospect it might read as a preachy SJW-esque after-school lesson, but the diversity only served to make characters unique and to subvert character stereotypes in animation. Just from the top of my head:

• Milo Thatch: Main character and unlikely hero. A lanky scholar with few practical skills whom nobody treats respectfully until well into the narrative. The most relatable heroic protagonist in any Disney film, I would argue. Has to use his mind to deal with situations rather than rely on his brawn. Romantically hopeless and lives with a cat.
• Kida: Badass native princess torn between preserving the safety of her people by hiding them and restoring their greatness by leading them back into the real world. Way more heroic than Milo in terms of stereotypical heroic features, but at one point becomes a martyr like her mother to protect her people. Non-white, I guess you could argue, but that has no bearing on her romantic relationship with Milo (which is probably a big deal in the context of the early 20th century elite society in which Milo lives).
• Dr Sweet: Kindly black/american indian doctor with minor eccentric tendencies, whose gentle nature is contrasted against his muscular stature. A cool and skillful dude who just happens to be black and indian—no sociopolitical virtue signalling involved. Again, in the context of the early 20th century this is probably a big deal.
• Vinny: Wop-looking sleepy dude who makes offbeat remarks and observations. He handles explosives (which matches his stoic appearance), but his real dream is to follow in his family's footsteps by opening a flower and floral arrangement shop. This subverts the features of manliness we expect Vinny to embody given his role as the demolitions guy.
• Audrey: Female Puerto Rican mechanic who packs a mean punch. Implications of trying to live up to the rest of the males in her family who are all boxers—but this doesn't detract from her ability as a mechanic. Just like with Vinny, her characterization subverts our expectation of mechanics to be rough men. Notably, she isn't butch or any less female just because she is a good mechanic (a good breaking of gender roles that signals to girls that working with trucks or machines doesn't make them a man or trans or whatever). I don't need to mention again how the setting would normally consider a woman in her position.

I could go on, but you get the point. The whole plot is certainly an anti-colonial narrative, but the people in Atlantis aren't noble savages. Their societal decline results from how they chose to respond to external threats, as opposed to being the fault of evil white men. Yet the movie just shows us all of this rather than outright preaching moral virtue. It's like if you took James Cameron's Avatar but actually made it good. It's a shame how underrated Atlantis is in the Disney oeuvre, since it certainly outclasses anything they've made in the past decade in every respect.

 

[LavenderMenace]

Steven Universe is an okay show.

Has a fuck load of problems pacing and story wise but it actually had an okay ending.

 

[Trilby]

The Moomins are one of these european creations the japanese adopted and really ran with. Sort of like how Miffy was Dutch in creation but the japanese adored it, eventually making their rip off Hello Kitty.

The 1990 Finnish-Japanese cartoon was always on as a kid, and though many love the moomins i'll never forgive it for the terror it instilled in me. A cuddly, whimsical family of Hippotomuses/Hippopotomi go on extremely dark and lonely adventures that often involve weird and dark beings. It's certainly genius, but I'll always hate it.

View attachment 1758093

I could never hate Tove Jansson's gift to literature.

 

[Vyse Inglebard]

The best Disney movie will always be Lilo & Stitch.

Fixed that for ya, bud. Seriously, most of what you said about Atlantis could also apply to L&S, if not more so. Great animation style? Check (THOSE WATERCOLORS THO). A plot that has shades of darkness and top-notch characterization? Check. Unique characters that totally break the stereotypes of western animation?

Let's see - we have...

Lilo Pelekai - One of the best written child characters in not only animation, but also all of fiction. She can be nice and sweet sometimes, and at other times she can be annoying, mischievous, cocky and/or selfish. Just like a real kid.

Nani Pelekai - Not only one of the most realistic-LOOKING women in the Disney canon, but the most realistic in her behavior as well. She doesn't always gets things right, and is obviously overwhelmed by her now having to take care of Lilo after their parents died, but she will do everything in her power to protect her younger sister. She shows that she's overwhelmed by squabbling with her sister semi-regularly - again, like real siblings do - but she's not afraid to have fun either, as seen in the Hawaiian Roller-Coaster Ride sequence.

Stitch/Experiment 626 - OK, seriously, how many Disney - nay, how many KIDS' movies have you seen that has A LIVING, BREATHING WEAPON OF MASS DESTRUCTION as A MAIN PROTAGONIST? WHO TURNS GOOD BY THE END?! AND IT'S COMPLETLY JUSTIFIED?! None, except this one (and the Iron Giant, which is another great animated movie, but we're not talking about that one).

Jumba and Pleakley - The mad scientist guy who created Stitch and the high-strung galactic expert on Earth who tags along with him to retrieve Stitch, respectively. Great comedic duo to watch bumble around as they try to catch Stitch and help save the day at the climax. AND NO, THEY'RE NOT GAY, TWITTER, STOP PROJECTING YOUR FANTASIES ONTO ANIMATED CHARACTERS PLEASE. (Watch the remake actually make them gay, though.... )

And last but certainly not least:

David Kawena - Nani's on-again, off-again boyfriend. Just an all-around nice guy. He helps save Lilo & Stitch when they run into trouble surfing, helps Nani find a job when she desperately needs it most, and makes two trips to bring everybody back to the mainland. (Watch as they either dumb him down, or completely excise him from the remake, because NANI IZ STRONK INDEPENDENT WAHMAN WHO DON'T NEED NO MAN!!111!!! )

Now, I see your point about Atlantis having sympathetic antagonists, and I raise you the fact that L&S has NO antagonists.

Cobra Bubbles - The social worker taking on Lilo's case. Chris Sanders and Dean DeBlois could've taken the easy way out and made an outright bad guy (like a lesser Disney flick would've done), but they didn't. Instead, they made him into a person who absolutely does not want to take Lilo away from Nani, but, if he feels it's best for Lilo - a line he says verbatim - he will. Not because he's evil, but because he's a guy doing his job.

Captain Gantu - Again, just a guy doing his job. When he captures Stitch (and accidentally Lilo) during the climax of the movie, for all Gantu knows, Stitch is still the destructive and nasty little asshole at the beginning of the movie, instead of the changed "cute and fluffy" family member he's become. Thus, Gantu thinks he's doing a service by locking that "little abomination" away for good.

If you couldn't already tell, I fucking love this movie, and what Disney did to it through the TV show and Asian spinoffs will forever be a dark, dark stain among the many in the Rat's dirty clothes. I dread the live-action remake.....

 

[he who has thus come/gone]

Fixed that for ya, bud. Seriously, most of what you said about Atlantis could also apply to L&S, if not more so. Great animation style? Check (THOSE WATERCOLORS THO). A plot that has shades of darkness and top-notch characterization? Check. Unique characters that totally break the stereotypes of western animation?

Let's see - we have...

Lilo Pelekai - One of the best written child characters in not only animation, but also all of fiction. She can be nice and sweet sometimes, and at other times she can be annoying, mischievous, cocky and/or selfish. Just like a real kid.

Nani Pelekai - Not only one of the most realistic-LOOKING women in the Disney canon, but the most realistic in her behavior as well. She doesn't always gets things right, and is obviously overwhelmed by her now having to take care of Lilo after their parents died, but she will do everything in her power to protect her younger sister. She shows that she's overwhelmed by squabbling with her sister semi-regularly - again, like real siblings do - but she's not afraid to have fun either, as seen in the Hawaiian Roller-Coaster Ride sequence.

Stitch/Experiment 626 - OK, seriously, how many Disney - nay, how many KIDS' movies have you seen that has A LIVING, BREATHING WEAPON OF MASS DESTRUCTION as A MAIN PROTAGONIST? WHO TURNS GOOD BY THE END?! AND IT'S COMPLETLY JUSTIFIED?! None, except this one (and the Iron Giant, which is another great animated movie, but we're not talking about that one).

Jumba and Pleakley - The mad scientist guy who created Stitch and the high-strung galactic expert on Earth who tags along with him to retrieve Stitch, respectively. Great comedic duo to watch bumble around as they try to catch Stitch and help save the day at the climax. AND NO, THEY'RE NOT GAY, TWITTER, STOP PROJECTING YOUR FANTASIES ONTO ANIMATED CHARACTERS PLEASE. (Watch the remake actually make them gay, though.... )

And last but certainly not least:

David Kawena - Nani's on-again, off-again boyfriend. Just an all-around nice guy. He helps save Lilo & Stitch when they run into trouble surfing, helps Nani find a job when she desperately needs it most, and makes two trips to bring everybody back to the mainland. (Watch as they either dumb him down, or completely excise him from the remake, because NANI IZ STRONK INDEPENDENT WAHMAN WHO DON'T NEED NO MAN!!111!!! )

Now, I see your point about Atlantis having sympathetic antagonists, and I raise you the fact that L&S has NO antagonists.

Cobra Bubbles - The social worker taking on Lilo's case. Chris Sanders and Dean DeBlois could've taken the easy way out and made an outright bad guy (like a lesser Disney flick would've done), but they didn't. Instead, they made him into a person who absolutely does not want to take Lilo away from Nani, but, if he feels it's best for Lilo - a line he says verbatim - he will. Not because he's evil, but because he's a guy doing his job.

Captain Gantu - Again, just a guy doing his job. When he captures Stitch (and accidentally Lilo) during the climax of the movie, for all Gantu knows, Stitch is still the destructive and nasty little asshole at the beginning of the movie, instead of the changed "cute and fluffy" family member he's become. Thus, Gantu thinks he's doing a service by locking that "little abomination" away for good.

If you couldn't already tell, I fucking love this movie, and what Disney did to it through the TV show and Asian spinoffs will forever be a dark, dark stain among the many in the Rat's dirty clothes. I dread the live-action remake.....

I generally agree with your points, but I would argue that Lilo and Stitch is not underrated whatsoever, unlike Atlantis which is the closest thing to a modern Disney cult film, with unique elements that have not since appeared in Disney productions. I'd also add that Lilo and Stitch has very few dark elements, which add a lot of depth to the storytelling in Atlantis. Sure, you could argue that Nani and Lilo's parents being dead in conjunction with the underlying conflict between Bubbles and Nani regarding her inability to care for her sister both act as narrative foils to the otherwise upbeat tone of the film.

But people actually die in Atlantis. Hell, the final villain turns into some Goosebumps-esque shrieking crystal homunculus. Atlantis just has a heavier tone than Lilo and Stitch, including moments of grief and loss that lend to better storytelling, in my personal opinion. Not everyone wants this type of seriousness punctuating their Disney films, but most of their films released in the past two decades have foregone almost entirely the incorporation of heavy elements into their narratives—the conflicts in almost all feel shallow and have a sickly-sweet tone. Lilo and Stitch, while a fine film in its own right, just doesn't do it for me. I consider it a fun film about the travails of constructing a (non-traditional) family in the wake of tragedy, but I can't recall anything about its narrative or characters that appeal to me as an adult.

It does have an amazing soundtrack, though.