Plagued /r/TNOmod and the Reddit HOI4 modding community - When a subreddit for a video game mod turns to utter insanity

[Pointless Pedant]

That point about Russia not taking Moscow to evade a potential Nuclear way is fair, even if it still sucks.

But on the topic of new content for TNO; it almost feels like this thread was made too early for the true lulz. The mod has only really begun to ramp up it's heavy-handed American commentary as of last month's update. America and the Organization of Free Nations defeating and claiming Nazi Germany's African holdings. In which they use to subsequently nation build a democratic central African super state. One that is somehow supposed to be a serious commentary on Kirkpatrick Doctrine, Korean War, the Vietnam, American Imperialism and racism ruins everything all in one. I think conceptually the writers do it the best that you possibly could given the overall context. Since going into Africa to form a puppet super state out of a bunch of tiny states isn't good for local stability but is certainly a compelling concept in-universe and for the player. It ends up falling apart because it's a retarded idea for the OFN to pursue. The devs could have just left it at "nation build is bad" "we shouldn't liberate a people just to subsequently put them under our banner to serve our needs."

But as was said earlier, they can't just stay in the middle ground where they can make genuinely compelling arguments. They have to go all out, with the best ending being a ceasefire from a position of strength with actual Nazis in hopes their glorified extermination through labour camps fall apart due to local rebellion (which they do if you you do this)
In America there are massive protests at home that fighting to liberate people from the Nazis is a bad move. That the American superstate defacto dictatorship is somehow no better than literal death camps. Through their writing they constantly argue from a position that equates corruption, incompetence of leadership, poverty and economic melt down as genuinely comparable tragedies. They even go about having the guy who fucked up the Vietnam war (Westmoreland) as one of the leaders of the African superstate who can choose to napalms their own lands in Africa. Real subtle stuff.

This is a former writer's response to that massive wall of text I screnshooted earlier about Panzer's interview. I bring it up now because it's relevant. Shows that even with Panzer gone. His vision of TNO is conceptually complete and will continue to be the crux of development for years to come. Any current problems with the mod are only the beginning.

The South African mess is ludicrous from both a political and military perspective. The German colonies' armies would be mostly local militia and given the Americans can just invade their territory they would be swept away (it's not like Africans would volunteer to die in droves for the Nazis). Subsequently I agree the resulting country would fall apart, but there would be little protest at home because American casualties would be very low. If anything, a commentary on Libya (NATO blows the government away and leaves a lawless mess behind) would be more appropriate than Vietnam.

 

[Lizard Machine Bugs]

That point about Russia not taking Moscow to evade a potential Nuclear way is fair, even if it still sucks.

But on the topic of new content for TNO; it almost feels like this thread was made too early for the true lulz. The mod has only really begun to ramp up it's heavy-handed American commentary as of last month's update. America and the Organization of Free Nations defeating and claiming Nazi Germany's African holdings. In which they use to subsequently nation build a democratic central African super state. One that is somehow supposed to be a serious commentary on Kirkpatrick Doctrine, Korean War, the Vietnam, American Imperialism and racism ruins everything all in one. I think conceptually the writers do it the best that you possibly could given the overall context. Since going into Africa to form a puppet super state out of a bunch of tiny states isn't good for local stability but is certainly a compelling concept in-universe and for the player. It ends up falling apart because it's a retarded idea for the OFN to pursue. The devs could have just left it at "nation build is bad" "we shouldn't liberate a people just to subsequently put them under our banner to serve our needs."

But as was said earlier, they can't just stay in the middle ground where they can make genuinely compelling arguments. They have to go all out, with the best ending being a ceasefire from a position of strength with actual Nazis in hopes their glorified extermination through labour camps fall apart due to local rebellion (which they do if you you do this)
In America there are massive protests at home that fighting to liberate people from the Nazis is a bad move. That the American superstate defacto dictatorship is somehow no better than literal death camps. Through their writing they constantly argue from a position that equates corruption, incompetence of leadership, poverty and economic melt down as genuinely comparable tragedies to extermination. They even go about having the guy who fucked up the Vietnam war (Westmoreland) as one of the leaders of the African superstate who can choose to napalms their own lands in Africa. Real subtle stuff.

This is a former writer's response to that massive wall of text I screnshooted earlier about Panzer's interview. I bring it up now because it's relevant. Shows that even with Panzer gone. His vision of TNO is conceptually complete and will continue to be the crux of development for years to come. Any current problems with the mod are only the beginning.

Honestly i find the africa-america stuff kind of shit since it comes from an america political prospective which sees all of the "black peoples" as one unified group that acts in a singular manner instead of the diverse and fucked up group it is in reality.
i mean would the african leaders even care that much about the bathroom or not immediately being free, and try to expedite the talks while maintaining autonomy instead of throwing a shit fit over a thing that is honestly not to important to their situation, and they probably have little cultural context.
and furthermore black separatism has been popular in both america and africa so at least some would like or be ok with it.

 

[Pointless Pedant]

Honestly i find the africa-america stuff kind of shit since it comes from an america political prospective which sees all of the "black peoples" as one unified group that acts in a singular manner instead of the diverse and fucked up group it is in reality.
i mean would the african leaders even care that much about the bathroom or not immediately being free, and try to expedite the talks while maintaining autonomy instead of throwing a shit fit over a thing that is honestly not to important to their situation, and they probably have little cultural context.
and furthermore black separatism has been popular in both america and africa so at least some would like or be ok with it.

A plot where Stokely Carmichael creates a black volunteer force to fight the Nazis and then tries to resettle black Americans in the postwar states would be entertaining. The mod just has bad writing.

 

[HumanHive]

I've never been more fucking blueballed by anything than TNO. Fucking playing the West Russian Revolutionary Front, story is all about hyping me up to rebuild the USSR and retake occupied West Russia after the failed West Russian War. I reunite all of the Russian statelets, I reform the USSR. I get this epic pop-up with blaring music to celebrate my victory. Then I see this "CONGRATULATIONS FOR PLAYING THROUGH ALL THE CONTENT CURRENTLY IN THE FACTION COME BACK SOON FOR MORE." I can't declare war on Reichskommissariat Moskowien since I no longer have a focus tree and justifying war goals is disabled by the mod. Talk about a premature victory.

This is the video that I link embedded, though they've updated all the reunification super events to be much better. They changed some of the displayed quotes so the game doesn't scold you for being a bad boy who makes a bad Russia. They also touched up the songs and gave new ones to different end paths for leaders with multiple reunification outcomes. Out of the updated ones; mathematician Russia is probably my favorite. https://youtu.be/WbPUG1MzXp0?t=653

I actually do hope that Paradox implements superevents into the vanilla HOI, because that's genuinely a good idea.

 

[Pointless Pedant]

I actually do hope that Paradox implements superevents into the vanilla HOI, because that's genuinely a good idea.

Cold War: Iron Curtain mod has them too for events like the inauguration of new American and Soviet leaders. For regular HOI4 the Spanish Civil War, the Japanese invasion of China, the outbreak of WW2, the fall of France, Barbarossa, Italy changing sides, the German and Japanese surrenders, and the first nuclear bombing could have them, as well as a hypothetical for Operation Unthinkable.

 

[HumanHive]

But as was said earlier, they can't just stay in the middle ground where they can make genuinely compelling arguments. They have to go all out, with the best ending being a ceasefire from a position of strength with actual Nazis in hopes their glorified extermination through labour camps fall apart due to local rebellion (which they do if you you do this)
In America there are massive protests at home that fighting to liberate people from the Nazis is a bad move. That the American superstate defacto dictatorship is somehow no better than literal death camps. Through their writing they constantly argue from a position that equates corruption, incompetence of leadership, poverty and economic melt down as genuinely comparable tragedies to extermination. They even go about having the guy who fucked up the Vietnam war (Westmoreland) as one of the leaders of the African superstate who can choose to napalms their own lands in Africa. Real subtle stuff.

It's insane, but this kind of racketing conflation is a hallmark of the modern left. Absolutely everything is "just as bad" or "comparable" to literal death camps. From a logical standpoint it's a retarded comparison, but to the left it's simple A = A. If one thing is racist, then another thing is just as bad.

 

[Pointless Pedant]

It's insane, but this kind of racketing conflation is a hallmark of the modern left. Absolutely everything is "just as bad" or "comparable" to literal death camps. From a logical standpoint it's a retarded comparison, but to the left it's simple A = A. If one thing is racist, then another thing is just as bad.

Not quite. Nothing the CCP does will ever compare to anything America does to them.

 

[Imperial Citizen]

Since this is a HOI4 mods thread, let's talk about the other big alt-history HOI4 mod; Kaiserreich. Someone posted a comment saying that the HOI2 Kaiserreich was centrist. Can anyone verify what that means? Because from what I have played, it doesn't seem like HOI4 Kaisereich is full on leftism. What I mean is that the mod isn't structured so that only leftist factions win. And there are alot of paths nations can take to go completely authoritarian communism. I think there is even a way for the CSA (Combined Syndicalists of America) to reinstitute child labor?

Actually the whole CSA rising up does raise some questions. I get that the mod is trying to depict a different type of communist revolution, one that begins in industrialized countries. And I could see that a revolutionary movement could occur in the US in the 30s, especially if the economic conditions got really fucked up. But what I question is the ability for the revolutionaries to be able to form an army. The U.S. was not involved in the Weltkrieg, so they don't have the number of angered veterans like Britain and France had. I think that it would be more like a guerrilla war, where the US tries to penetrate through the industrial stronghold of the CSA.

 

[Techpriest]

Since this is a HOI4 mods thread, let's talk about the other big alt-history HOI4 mod; Kaiserreich. Someone posted a comment saying that the HOI2 Kaiserreich was centrist. Can anyone verify what that means? Because from what I have played, it doesn't seem like HOI4 Kaisereich is full on leftism. What I mean is that the mod isn't structured so that only leftist factions win. And there are alot of paths nations can take to go completely authoritarian communism. I think there is even a way for the CSA (Combined Syndicalists of America) to reinstitute child labor?

Actually the whole CSA rising up does raise some questions. I get that the mod is trying to depict a different type of communist revolution, one that begins in industrialized countries. And I could see that a revolutionary movement could occur in the US in the 30s, especially if the economic conditions got really fucked up. But what I question is the ability for the revolutionaries to be able to form an army. The U.S. was not involved in the Weltkrieg, so they don't have the number of angered veterans like Britain and France had. I think that it would be more like a guerrilla war, where the US tries to penetrate through the industrial stronghold of the CSA.

Kaiserreich has been accused of being: Profascist, Procommunist, Promonarchis, Prodemocratic, and probably pro-anarcho-technocratic or some shit. People whine about commie bias because a chunk of the devs are actual syndicalists, but from everything I've seen, the mod basically doesn't pick sides on who's good or bad (aside from Iron Guard Romania and the Totalists)

 

[Imperial Citizen]

Kaiserreich has been accused of being: Profascist, Procommunist, Promonarchis, Prodemocratic, and probably pro-anarcho-technocratic or some shit. People whine about commie bias because a chunk of the devs are actual syndicalists, but from everything I've seen, the mod basically doesn't pick sides on who's good or bad (aside from Iron Guard Romania and the Totalists)

Pro-fascist? How the fuck could they be accused of that when fascism does not exist in that game’s universe.

About the only bias they have is towards the 2nd American Civil War. Aren’t they trying to make an animated show about it?

 

[Shadfan666xxx000]

Pro-fascist? How the fuck could they be accused of that when fascism does not exist in that game’s universe.

About the only bias they have is towards the 2nd American Civil War. Aren’t they trying to make an animated show about it?

Yeah, they've released a bunch of stuff about it including some short films so far. As for the point about the CSA army getting together, the model actually does address this in their focus tree and national spirits where they start with utterly crap militia and either get steamrolled by the feds or survive barely long enough to get professional and become essentially unstoppable.

 

[Techpriest]

Pro-fascist? How the fuck could they be accused of that when fascism does not exist in that game’s universe.

About the only bias they have is towards the 2nd American Civil War. Aren’t they trying to make an animated show about it?

They’ve been called pro-fascist because they point out Stalinism isn’t good.

 

[Dagobert]

They’ve been called pro-fascist because they point out Stalinism isn’t good.

It's been a while since I've touched Kaiserreich, and I recall the mod not being too bad (IIRC it was probably whitewashing some stuff, but was arguably better than the vanilla game on that front) but when I stopped checking in on Kaiserreich, the community was a cesspit that pushed that garbage all the time. I wonder if it's gotten better, or if those people have gotten entrenched.

 

[Kanuckski]

I actually do hope that Paradox implements superevents into the vanilla HOI, because that's genuinely a good idea

Yeah, I agree. Also, even though we've been trashing the writing, it still does have some redeeming qualities. Like the pop-ups that attempt to describe everyday life in your nation, or choices from your focuses. "Cradle to Grave" is a pretty good one from Burgundy. Adds a lot of immersion the base game lacks, you tend to become really disconnected from what you're actually doing to your nation in games like these. More of these pop-ups are a great solution that I'd like to see more of.

It's been a while since I've touched Kaiserreich, and I recall the mod not being too bad (IIRC it was probably whitewashing some stuff, but was arguably better than the vanilla game on that front) but when I stopped checking in on Kaiserreich, the community was a cesspit that pushed that garbage all the time. I wonder if it's gotten better, or if those people have gotten entrenched.

Sorry to bring it back to TNO, but something I find it amusing the mods of that community despise it and genuinely do want to reform it if possible. Which even they admit isn't happening. But I notice they're almost exclusively reactive in their undertaking. They prefer flintlocks in the Korean War to machineguns in the Boxer Rebellion.

 

[Pointless Pedant]

Since this is a HOI4 mods thread, let's talk about the other big alt-history HOI4 mod; Kaiserreich. Someone posted a comment saying that the HOI2 Kaiserreich was centrist. Can anyone verify what that means? Because from what I have played, it doesn't seem like HOI4 Kaisereich is full on leftism. What I mean is that the mod isn't structured so that only leftist factions win. And there are alot of paths nations can take to go completely authoritarian communism. I think there is even a way for the CSA (Combined Syndicalists of America) to reinstitute child labor?

Actually the whole CSA rising up does raise some questions. I get that the mod is trying to depict a different type of communist revolution, one that begins in industrialized countries. And I could see that a revolutionary movement could occur in the US in the 30s, especially if the economic conditions got really fucked up. But what I question is the ability for the revolutionaries to be able to form an army. The U.S. was not involved in the Weltkrieg, so they don't have the number of angered veterans like Britain and France had. I think that it would be more like a guerrilla war, where the US tries to penetrate through the industrial stronghold of the CSA.

I really dislike a lot of things about Kaiserreich, especially the way Germany actually wins WW1 by having their smaller, weaker fleet just magically destroy the British like they failed to do at Jutland. A more realistic Central Powers victory would just have the war bog down into stalemate and reach a negotiated ceasefire where Germany withdraws from France and Belgium but keeps Alsace-Lorraine and their Brest-Litovsk gains in the east, thus becoming the dominant power in Europe. Germany going off to intervene in China while literal communists are amassing over the French border is also retarded. Intervention in France is a much more realistic prospect.

The 2ACW doesn't work as a concept. A revolution during the great depression seems possible, but it would be in the form of unrest and rioting in cities blowing up into open rebellion, not just a bunch of different countries appearing on the map and fighting. Syndicalists (communists) would rise in the midwestern industrial cities more than anywhere else, since Debs' Socialist Party had been big there. I'd compare it to Syria's slide into civil war in 2011-2012, with a phase of asymmetrical warfare before all hell really breaks loose.

 

[Übertroon]

It's interesting how many ideas TNO borrows from better mods without taking the time

This video itself is a bit autistic, but goes over some good points.

View attachment 1763670


I was going to post this in the YT comments thread until I noticed this thread.

Look who decided to show up:

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View attachment 1763576

View attachment 1763579
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It just goes on and on.

In spite of it running on my computer like sludge, I do enjoy the mod. It works much better when you consider it a dark comedy setting with the way it's written and presented. Heinrich Himmler fabricating a more radical version of National Socialism and converting eastern France and Belgium into a Meganazi North Korea? Hilarious. How could you not find that funny? The aesthetics are nice too. The tryhard dipshits who get mad at you for not taking it seriously are massive faggots.

As someone also with a degree in economics the setting is a pet peeve of mine.

They just stole the idea of a market crash weakening Germany from kaiserreich, and justifying it by reading the back cover of Wages of Destruction.

The problem is a post war Third Reich economy would be fundamentally different from the pre war economy. The nazi leaders desired a autarky, but begrudgingly participated in the free market up until the war broke out.

Post WW2 Germany would in the event of a victory be way closer in operations to that of the Soviet Union and the Warzawa Pact. It would be impossible for them to experience a debt crisis or stock exchange crash. Instead they would have to worry about falling productivity, corruption, and local officials cooking the books like the Soviets experienced.

 

[Pointless Pedant]

It's interesting how many ideas TNO borrows from better mods without taking the time

As someone also with a degree in economics the setting is a pet peeve of mine.

They just stole the idea of a market crash weakening Germany from kaiserreich, and justifying it by reading the back cover of Wages of Destruction.

The problem is a post war Third Reich economy would be fundamentally different from the pre war economy. The nazi leaders desired a autocracy, but begrudgingly participated in the free market up until the war broke out.

Post WW2 Germany would in the event of a victory be way closer in operations to that of the Soviet Union and the Warzawa Pact. It would be impossible for them to experience a debt crisis or stock exchange crash. Instead they would have to worry about falling productivity, corruption, and local officials cooking the books like the Soviets experienced.

The debt crisis comes from the MEFO bills they used to fund their war effort. They delayed repaying the bills due to wartime, but in peacetime presumably these would come due and people would expect them to be repaid. If that didn't happen, there would be a massive loss of confidence in the government and people wouldn't buy any more bonds.

Slavery itself is also a big part of the problem. Slaves don't buy anything, so they're not part of the consumer economy and the internal market is thus very limited in size. Overproduction of goods seems likely, which would lead to a price crash as the Aryan upper class's demand is saturated and the slave underclass can't afford anything themselves.

 

[Übertroon]

The debt crisis comes from the MEFO bills they used to fund their war effort. They delayed repaying the bills due to wartime, but in peacetime presumably these would come due and people would expect them to be repaid. If that didn't happen, there would be a massive loss of confidence in the government and people wouldn't buy any more bonds.

Slavery itself is also a big part of the problem. Slaves don't buy anything, so they're not part of the consumer economy and the internal market is thus very limited in size. Overproduction of goods seems likely, which would lead to a price crash as the Aryan upper class's demand is saturated and the slave underclass can't afford anything themselves.

The MEFO bills immediately became a none concern once the war began. Wages of Destruction even admits to this. Their foreign debtors would never see any money, and german industrialists were rewarded with the spoils of occupied Europe.

The balance of power also shifted during the war. Whatever power the industrialists had before the war was lost during it. What confidence were the nazis going to lose? That of Fritz Thyssen who they threw into a concentration camp for opposing the war?

Also like I said, Third Reich post war wouldn't have to worry about things like overproduction, lack of consumers, or price crashes. Post war Germany would be a economic autocracy with price controls, production quotas, and a command economy governed by the state. Their worries would be the same as the Soviets.

 

[Pointless Pedant]

The MEFO bills immediately became a none concern once the war began. Wages of Destruction even admits to this. Their foreign debtors would never see any money, and german industrialists were rewarded with the spoils of occupied Europe.

The balance of power also shifted during the war. Whatever power the industrialists had before the war was lost during it. What confidence were the nazis going to lose? That of Fritz Thyssen who they threw into a concentration camp for opposing the war?

Also like I said, Third Reich post war wouldn't have to worry about things like overproduction, lack of consumers, or price crashes. Post war Germany would be a economic autocracy with price controls, production quotas, and a command economy governed by the state. Their worries would be the same as the Soviets.

The question in that case is whether they would stay centrally planned as they demobilised after the war (since the state acting as more of a command economy is common as wartime emergency measures). If they adopted Soviet full employment policies this would lead to productivity cratering since it would be almost impossible to fire anyone for incompetence. Additionally an informal economy expanding because of the inefficiencies of the planning system would cut into the tax base. I'd assume there would be some kind of post war party faction which would want to devolve some powers to industrialists again to fix the stagnation, but whether they would be taken seriously is another question entirely.

 

[Übertroon]

The question in that case is whether they would stay centrally planned as they demobilised after the war (since the state acting as more of a command economy is common as wartime emergency measures). If they adopted Soviet full employment policies this would lead to productivity cratering since it would be almost impossible to fire anyone for incompetence. Additionally an informal economy expanding because of the inefficiencies of the planning system would cut into the tax base. I'd assume there would be some kind of post war party faction which would want to devolve some powers to industrialists again to fix the stagnation, but whether they would be taken seriously is another question entirely.

Stagnation and corruption would indeed be the main concerns. Also I don't think the Germans had any plans to return to a market economy post war. People like Hjalmar Schact had been removed before the war, and the nazi leaders made it clear that they sought a centrally planned autocracy.