The Confederate Flag

Some JERK said:
I agree. And yeah, I totally understand the argument that the State flying the Stars and Bars creates an environment where people feel that their own government is against them. But I don't think any government building should be allowed to fly a flag of another government anyway. The Confederacy is gone, so why does anyone need a Confederate flag anymore? My point was more that as someone with deep Confederate roots, I don't think that the "heritage" argument means anything, but I also know that getting rid of that flag isn't going to do much about actual racism in the South, so it'll make people feel better, (which is great) but that's about it.
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Oh definitely. I completely agree. A different flag obviously wouldn't have foregone the Dylann Roof bullshit, for example

Mostly what I'm saying is that, if there's a controversy about removing the confederate flag from official government installations, that controversy is solely the fault of the people resisting the change.

The "what's the big deal? it's history!" crowd are being shitheads. Completely and indisputably shitheads.

Both the "it's our heritage!" arguments and the "muh freedoms" arguments are insulting.
Dr. Meme said:
You should be able to hang up anything you want in your house. Doesn't mean you're not a giant prick but I respect the right for you to do that.
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Heh, I'm reminded of the episode of Reno 911 when Big Mike had a yardsale with a nazi flag, and then Jones and Williams showed up, but because they couldn't arrest him for it, they ended up buying the flag off of them for $2.

"And the cops bought a nazi flag todayyy!!"
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I understand that the navy jack of the Confederacy has flown over certain government buildings in the South. In such cases I think the should be removed, not because of any racial implications, but simply because the flag was a symbol of a rebellion against the Federal Government. The battle flag is similarly incorporated into the state flag of Mississippi, and formerly in the state flag of Georgia, which now uses an altered version of the "Stars and Bars." As to whether or not these flags should change ought be left to the voters of the states to decide, in my opinion, based on whether or not the inclusion of these symbols is to be viewed as symbols of regional pride or of the dead Confederacy.

As for the symbols of the Confederacy appearing on memorials to Confederate soldiers, I think they ought remain for historical preservation's sake. To compare this to having memorials of the Third Reich is, frankly, silly.
 
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Marvin said:
See, that is extremely weird to me.
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It's not at all weird to me. This happens all the time, not least on the internet.

When you have somebody making a limited claim you disagree with, one of the most effective ways to refute it is to try to either associate their limited claim with a much more overarching, broad claim, or to simply act as if they had actually made the overarching, broad claim and leave it up to them to explain they didn't.

Here are a few well worn examples: "Gay people should be allowed to get married" "You can't make me marry a gay guy!"

"Gun ownership should be restricted" "You want to take away all our guns!"

"Europe should let in refugees from Africa" "Bringing the whole population of Africa to Europe is ridiculous"

"This war isn't a good idea" "Absolute pacifism will leave our country defenseless"

And my personal, and perennial, favourite. "I think your opinion is wrong" "I have a right to my opinion, stop trying to suppress my views!"

Etc etc etc. I'm sure we can all think of our own examples. The really sad part is not people doing this as a deliberate rhetorical strategy, but simply because they can't think in terms of relatively limited claims and default to hyperbole, so they don't even realise there's a difference between the limited and the broad arguments.
 
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I said it in the other thread but the south has so much good shit it came up with like William Faulkner, bbq, blues music, smoked brisket, jazz, college football supremacy, Zaxby's fried chicken, chic fil a, etc. why do they choose to display a flag from a failed rebellion as their pride?

Oh yeah, I'm from a rural part of Michigan and it is not uncommon to see a confederate flag flying in a person's yard or hung up in a college dorm room. I never saw that shit in Los Angeles or NYC because white people there are better at hiding their racism there.
 
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Dudeofteenage said:
It's not at all weird to me. This happens all the time, not least on the internet.

When you have somebody making a limited claim you disagree with, one of the most effective ways to refute it is to try to either associate their limited claim with a much more overarching, broad claim, or to simply act as if they had actually made the overarching, broad claim and leave it up to them to explain they didn't.

Here are a few well worn examples: "Gay people should be allowed to get married" "You can't make me marry a gay guy!"

"Gun ownership should be restricted" "You want to take away all our guns!"

"Europe should let in refugees from Africa" "Bringing the whole population of Africa to Europe is ridiculous"

"This war isn't a good idea" "Absolute pacifism will leave our country defenseless"

And my personal, and perennial, favourite. "I think your opinion is wrong" "I have a right to my opinion, stop trying to suppress my views!"

Etc etc etc. I'm sure we can all think of our own examples. The really sad part is not people doing this as a deliberate rhetorical strategy, but simply because they can't think in terms of relatively limited claims and default to hyperbole, so they don't even realise there's a difference between the limited and the broad arguments.
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I understand the general principle: ignorant person, desperate to cushion their feelings, resorts to very weak argument.

What I find weird is that people are so very disconnected from the rest of the country. Even if your personal beliefs necessitate the confederate flag, how alienated can you be to think these sort of strategies are feasible?

That's what's weird to me.
 
Dudeofteenage said:
Yes, but the interesting thing is that, while most of the controversy in the news surrounds the issue of the state government flying the flag, most people hear seem to prefer to argue about whether it's OK for private citizens to fly the flag, despite the fact that the overwhelming consensus in even the most "liberal" parts of the US commentariat seems to be that, yes, people should be allowed to fly Confederate flags if they want to.
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Well, Dude, in this country, the idea of banning private citizens from displaying the flag in public is a conversation that is basically off limits. I was amazed when I learned that some countries have actually banned the display of Nazi imagery. That's an idea that would get shot down as "nanny state" politics here as you are simply supposed to know not to do that. So goes the prevailing argument. Obviously not everyone is on-board with the whole decency thing. But by and large, you won't see the swastika here simply because we fought them in a major war, not for lack of racism. That makes the flying of the confederate flag even more mystifying to me. My attitude toward those people is they seem to favor some past imaginary country more than their current one. Maybe they should go somewhere else to find it?

I favor letting people fly the confederate flag if they wish simply because, like warning colors on dangerous or poisonous animals, you know visually to stay away as far as possible without having to interact.
 
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Captain Cid said:
I favor letting people fly the confederate flag if they wish simply because, like warning colors on dangerous or poisonous animals, you know visually to stay away as far as possible without having to interact.
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I agree.

I'm actually quite fond of Confederate flag or Swastika caps & T-shirts. That Stars n' Bars or spiral pattern is almost as good as a bullseye on their cranium or center of mass.
 
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If you want to be proud of your local heritage, fly your state flag. Or any number of county/city flags that exist. Don't fly a flag that's tinged with one of the worst aspects of American history. Heritage or not, it's a flag forever tied to chattel slavery and a war in which more Americans died than any other that was instigated by a separatist state to preserve the institution.
 
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I hate to borrow a line from Insane Clown Posse, but fuck it - FUCK. YOUR. REBEL. FLAG.

Anything that represents slavery of people of my fucking skin color, like that fucking rebel flag, deserves nothing but my weariness, TBH.
 
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Just remove the flag from govenment buildings. Simple. Pretty stupid and unprofessional for a flag that has many unfortunate implications flung in such places.

Although, I don't think the flag should be banned persay. If ignorant people want to fly the rebel flag and listen to Johnny Rebel while hoping that "The South will Rise Again!", so be it. Shows how stupid and backwards they are. They're a minority anyway. I've been to the South (Georgia, Mississippi, Florida to be exact) and never saw a rebel flag in sight.
 
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Captain Cid said:
Well, Dude, in this country, the idea of banning private citizens from displaying the flag in public is a conversation that is basically off limits.
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And yet that's the idea that people insist on arguing against despite the fact that nobody is advocating it.

Teddy said:
JAlthough, I don't think the flag should be banned persay. If ignorant people want to fly the rebel flag and listen to Johnny Rebel while hoping that "The South will Rise Again!", so be it.
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See?
 
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Captain Cid said:
Well those people must have trouble reading. Not surprising...after all, they are southern.
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Yeah, the North should just conquer and enslave the South already - so many problems would be fixed if the North dominated the entire US, right? Am I right?! I mean, they do know what's best and all for everyone......

..... Said only SJWs and their ilk.
 
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I'm not a southerner btw. Pure Californian. I had the wrong idea and honestly thought that people were thinking about banning the flag. MSNBC and the rest of the news made it seem that way. I haven't been keeping track on this controversy.

the North is/are just as bad if not worst. They love demonizing the South despite never being there. Plus, as someone mentioned in this thread, the racists there are good at masking their bigotry. At least in the South it's somewhat obvious. Thanks to stereotypes I suppose.
 
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