The Confederate Flag

[Morbid Boredom]

Once again: Nobody is suggesting banning the flag, and yet we've still got people devoting time and energy to explaining why they shouldn't.

No one in this forum is suggesting a ban, but plenty of people have suggested it elsewhere -usually comparing the stars-and-bars to the swastika and ignoring that the US is a very different country than Germany.

While you're at it, what's your opinion on giving guns to unicorns?

Over-and-Under is best pony.

 

[Cid Highwind]

No one in this forum is suggesting a ban, but plenty of people have suggested it elsewhere -usually comparing the stars-and-bars to the swastika and ignoring that the US is a very different country than Germany.



Over-and-Under is best pony.

The "stars and bars" is not the confederate battle flag and never was. That refers to the actual flag of the CSA:

The confederate battle flag was only popularized as a symbol for the confederacy in the early 20th century. And it is indeed equivalent as a symbol of hate for black people in the USA as the swastika of Nazi Germany is for Jews. Yes, the USA and Germany are indeed different countries but a symbol of institutionalized hate is a symbol of institutionalized hate.

 

[Dudeofteenage]

No one in this forum is suggesting a ban, but plenty of people have suggested it elsewhere

Have they? I've seen people complaining about it being displayed over a public building - that's what this current controversy stems from - but not that it should be outlawed.

The "stars and bars" is not the confederate battle flag and never was. That refers to the actual flag of the CSA:

We had this argument in the forum, and I think you're being pedantic. "Stars and Bars" is a nickname, and as such it doesn't really have a 'correct' use.

 

[Cid Highwind]

Have they? I've seen people complaining about it being displayed over a public building - that's what this current controversy stems from - but not that it should be outlawed.



We had this argument in the forum, and I think you're being pedantic. "Stars and Bars" is a nickname, and as such it doesn't really have a 'correct' use.

I'm not being pedantic, I'm being correct. The term "stars and bars" was used, during the existence of the CSA, to describe their flag by it's citizens as to separate it from the flag of the USA, the stars and stripes.

 

[Morbid Boredom]

Have they? I've seen people complaining about it being displayed over a public building - that's what this current controversy stems from - but not that it should be outlawed.

The Washington Post sums it up.

Lawyers Guns and Money is a fairly popular blog and would like to see an actual ban (not merely the de facto ban that will come if all major retailers stick to their declarations they will not sell products with the flag on it) of the flag -this was months ago, and the blogger wasn't riled up by proximity to a tragedy.

Other than that, it's the usual suspects, the feels before reals crowd. And Esquire. I got plenty of hits by googling "Confederate Flag" and "Treason". If it is treason, it is illegal, and I infer those columnists want the Battle Flag to be outlawed.

We had this argument in the forum, and I think you're being pedantic. "Stars and Bars" is a nickname, and as such it doesn't really have a 'correct' use.

I deserve the embarrassment, I should know better -I did pedantically refer to it as the Battle Flag in this thread!

 

[The Knife's Husbando]

I've seen some people complaining on the 'net about Ebay, Warner Brothers, Amazon, Sears, Etsy, Target, Wal-mart, etc. banning the sale of Confederate flag merchandise & clothing.

I don't see what the problem is. You can still get your Confederate flag t-shirt. I'm sure whoever sewn your Klan robes will appreciate the side job.

 

[Marvin]

The Washington Post sums it up.

Lawyers Guns and Money is a fairly popular blog and would like to see an actual ban (not merely the de facto ban that will come if all major retailers stick to their declarations they will not sell products with the flag on it) of the flag -this was months ago, and the blogger wasn't riled up by proximity to a tragedy.

Other than that, it's the usual suspects, the feels before reals crowd. And Esquire. I got plenty of hits by googling "Confederate Flag" and "Treason". If it is treason, it is illegal, and I infer those columnists want the Battle Flag to be outlawed.

See, again, this would not fly, legally. Discussing this as if it's something to worry about is paranoid and ignorant.

No judge could conflate displaying the confederate flag with actual, prosecutable treason.

@Dudeofteenage comparison about the controversy of giving guns to unicorns is very apt.

 

[AnOminous]

Other than that, it's the usual suspects, the feels before reals crowd. And Esquire. I got plenty of hits by googling "Confederate Flag" and "Treason". If it is treason, it is illegal, and I infer those columnists want the Battle Flag to be outlawed.

It is a literal flag of treason. That's what it stands for. That's a lot different than saying that flying it actually constitutes the a violation of criminal statutes prohibiting treason. Similarly, building a statue of Benedict Arnold would be building a statue of a traitor, but it wouldn't subject you to arrest for treason.

I've seen some people complaining on the 'net about Ebay, Warner Brothers, Amazon, Sears, Etsy, Target, Wal-mart, etc. banning the sale of Confederate flag merchandise & clothing.

I think it's silly posturing that will accomplish nothing. Frankly, I think they're going to cash in on the panicked idiots who will stockpile Confederate flags or buy them at inflated prices based on "Obama gonna take yer flags." Then one or more of these outlets will go right back to selling them again as soon as the hoopla dies down.

If not, someone will be move in to fill any market need.

I also wonder exactly how serious they're going to get about it, because they are bound to get fucking ridiculous. Will they make it impossible to buy Confederate units for tabletop gaming, for instance? There are any number of entirely legitimate reasons to want to purchase such items.

In any event, there is never going to be a future where anyone says: "Hey, remember when there was racism, but then Amazon stopped selling Confederate flags and it went away?"

 

[Picklechu]

It belongs in a museum and shouldn't be flown by government entities. Yes, it's a piece of history, and, yes, individuals have a right to display it if they so choose (although they are not protected from people's reactions to said display), but it's a sign of racism and treason. One could make the argument that the Civil War was about more than just slavery, but the people who argue that it wasn't about slavery at all are either willfully ignoring evidence, knowingly lying, or are just stupid.

As for retailers like Wal-Mart and Amazon refusing to sell merchandise with the Confederate flag on it, they have every right to do so. The people who are claiming that this somehow violates their rights are pretty funny to watch.

I'm from Alabama. I've stood on the exact spot where Jefferson Davis was inaugurated as the president of the Confederacy. (My freshman year of college, I could walk out the door of my dorm, go two-hundred feet, and be where the Stand in the Schoolhouse Door took place.) About three hours ago, the governor ordered the flags around the Confederate war memorial--which is located on the grounds of the Capitol--taken down. The media is covering it obsessively, mostly because it's a slow news day and because it fits into the national narrative, but really, no one down here cares about the Confederate flag other than a handful of crazy people. Most people are glad to see it go (not to the point of jumping up and down or anything, because, as I said, no one really gives much of a shit, but the reaction is generally positive).

 

[The Knife's Husbando]

Lotta people seem to think the concept of the Confederate flag as people's "heritage" is bullshit.

The problem is, it isn't.

Their great-grandfathers shot at people to keep slavery legal, their grandfathers attended lynchings, their fathers maned the hoses & dogs during the marches, and they want to keep up with the traditions.

 

[Zeorus]

This is one instance in which I disagree with many of my fellow leftists who believe that shaming people for any reason is wrong. Shame the fuck out of these idiots who fly this flag as a symbol of anti-authoritarianism or of "states' rights". Let the whole world know that they are bigoted, vile, or just stupid.

 

[Some JERK]

This is one instance in which I disagree with many of my fellow leftists who believe that shaming people for any reason is wrong. Shame the fuck out of these idiots who fly this flag as a symbol of anti-authoritarianism or of "states' rights". Let the whole world know that they are bigoted, vile, or just stupid.

The problem with most of the people you're talking about is that they think the rest of the world beyond the South sucks and everybody in it is a delusional coward. You can't really shame them unless you somehow shame them to their peers, which... yeah good luck with that.

 

[Zeorus]

The problem with most of the people you're talking about is that they think the rest of the world beyond the South sucks and everybody in it is a delusional coward. You can't really shame them unless you somehow shame them to their peers, which... yeah good luck with that.

Good point. I hadn't thought of that, not being from the South myself.

 

[Space_Dandy]

I'd like to mention that I am a member of the US Air Force. My patriotism over the years has reached both extremes of the spectrum. One thing I am not is a blind follower of the government. Went down that road before and found that our leaders are shortsighted, greedy, and protected by a thick clout of bureaucracy and obfuscation. However, I will give them credit where credit is due. Despite all the corruption that goes unreported in the military and the government as a whole, we still have one of the most free countries in the world. Also opportunity here is still great. This is why I can still feel good about serving. We haven't completely gone to hell yet, but I know there are a lot of people at the helm who are trying.

It never made much sense to me why one could under the same law have protected free speech against the state, but can't fly certain flags (or destroy our own). This comment I would never make to my peers, many of whom immediately feel an intense emotional connection between the flag and those sacrifices that have 'kept it flying.' This never made sense to me. If I die in combat, it sure as hell isn't for some cloth flag. Its for the freedom and opportunity that our country offers. Can a flag embody all of that complexity? I don't think so.

But what if it does? I know to a lot of people believe it does. Should we limit our freedom of speech just to appease them? By them I mean our military and the most patriotic of citizens. Of course not! What is the point of me dying to protect freedom of speech if we are just going to weaken freedom of speech just to protect my feelings?

Hurt my feelings please! Thats how I know we have done a good job protecting freedom of speech. If someone gets locked up for burning an American flag, or for flying a Confederate flag, then I feel like my buddies and I are sacrificing ourselves in vain.

One final note, as a Christian, the Bible makes it clear that images are to be avoided. There is nothing good about investing emotional and spiritual energy in a symbol. Its unhealthy and often leads us to jeopardizing our priorities. I may wear a cross, in the same way the one might wear a hat that says "I am a Christian" but I do not believe that it contains spiritual energy or importance.

Faith can't be confined to one object.

 

[Dudeofteenage]

one might wear a hat that says "I am a Christian"

Please tell me people actually do that

 

[Space_Dandy]

Please tell me people actually do that

Close enough.

 

[Surtur]

You know, since moving to the South, I have seen a lot less Confederate flags than I did in Arizona and California.

 

[sugoi-chan]

You know, since moving to the South, I have seen a lot less Confederate flags than I did in Arizona and California.

Confederaboos seem to be a thing in the north. I lived next to hillbillies with "The South Shall Rise Again!" Confederate flag bumper stickers on their cars. This was when I lived in New Jersey. Granted, parts of New Jersey are like the Alabama of the North, but still.

 

[Red_Rager]

Confederaboos seem to be a thing in the north. I lived next to hillbillies with "The South Shall Rise Again!" Confederate flag bumper stickers on their cars. This was when I lived in New Jersey. Granted, parts of New Jersey are like the Alabama of the North, but still.

I live in the Northeast and when I was in Maine I've seen some houses decked up in Confederate gear. Doesn't happen very often but those people exist.

 

[Some JERK]

You know, since moving to the South, I have seen a lot less Confederate flags than I did in Arizona and California.

Confederaboos seem to be a thing in the north. I lived next to hillbillies with "The South Shall Rise Again!" Confederate flag bumper stickers on their cars. This was when I lived in New Jersey. Granted, parts of New Jersey are like the Alabama of the North, but still.

It makes all the sense in the world really. The primary role of a flag is to signal your identity to strangers and allies in unfamiliar/hostile territory.