The Confederate Flag

[The Knife's Husbando]

Let's just clear this issue up.

Direct quote from an editorial published on May 4th, 1863 by William T. Thompson, then editor of the Savannah Morning News, who co-designed the Confederate flag with blockade runner William R. Postell:

"As a people, we are fighting to maintain the Heaven-ordained supremacy of the white man over the inferior or colored race; a white flag would thus be emblematical of our cause. Such a flag should soon take rank among the proudest ensigns of the nations, and be hailed by the civilized world as THE WHITE MAN'S FLAG. As a national emblem, it is significant of our higher cause, the cause of a superior race, and a higher civilization contending against ignorance, infidelity, and barbarism."

 

[Dudeofteenage]

Confederaboos seem to be a thing in the north. I lived next to hillbillies with "The South Shall Rise Again!" Confederate flag bumper stickers on their cars. This was when I lived in New Jersey. Granted, parts of New Jersey are like the Alabama of the North, but still.

For all that the flag's defenders say it signifies Southern Heritage, and that's clearly true for some people, to many others it seems to be more of a symbol of broader anti-government conservatism.

Edit: Although clearly there's massive crossover between those two concepts.

 

[HG 400]

Now I'm not saying I agree with slavery

Wait, what's wrong with slavery? Are you black or something?

 

[Shokew]

You know, since moving to the South, I have seen a lot less Confederate flags than I did in Arizona and California.

Cosmopolitan Influence and an influx of people from the North moving down South are two possible factors of that. These Confeditards are likely just hiding from you.

 

[Cid Highwind]

For all that the flag's defenders say it signifies Southern Heritage, and that's clearly true for some people, to many others it seems to be more of a symbol of broader anti-government conservatism.

No, the confederate flag isn't a symbol of anti-government conservatism. That would be the "dont tread on me" Gadsden flag.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gadsden_flag

Anyone displaying the confederate flag is doing so purely out of racial hatred. Or in other words:

Let's just clear this issue up.

Direct quote from an editorial published on May 4th, 1863 by William T. Thompson, then editor of the Savannah Morning News, who co-designed the Confederate flag with blockade runner William R. Postell:

"As a people, we are fighting to maintain the Heaven-ordained supremacy of the white man over the inferior or colored race; a white flag would thus be emblematical of our cause. Such a flag should soon take rank among the proudest ensigns of the nations, and be hailed by the civilized world as THE WHITE MAN'S FLAG. As a national emblem, it is significant of our higher cause, the cause of a superior race, and a higher civilization contending against ignorance, infidelity, and barbarism."

 

[Yellow Yam Scam]

No, the confederate flag isn't a symbol of anti-government conservatism. That would be the "dont tread on me" Gadsden flag.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gadsden_flag

Anyone displaying the confederate flag is doing so purely out of racial hatred. Or in other words:

It is beyond absurd to say that the confederate flag can't stand for something because there is another flag that does so as well.

It's also pretty silly to judge people based on a 150 year old quote from a person that said people have probably never even heard of.

 

[Cid Highwind]

It is beyond absurd to say that the confederate flag can't stand for something because there is another flag that does so as well.

It's also pretty silly to judge people based on a 150 year old quote from a person that said people have probably never even heard of.

No, actually it's beyond absurd to say that the confederate flag can stand for anything other than racism when racism is the very concept that the confederacy was based on. Once upon a time, the swastika symbolized good luck and fortune. It's current symbolism, however, completely drowns out any other meaning it may possess. Same with the confederate flag.

So you're saying it's silly to interpret the flag's meaning in a manner consistent with that of one of it's designers? That's strange.

 

[Yellow Yam Scam]

No, actually it's beyond absurd to say that the confederate flag can stand for anything other than racism when racism is the very concept that the confederacy was based on. Once upon a time, the swastika symbolized good luck and fortune. It's current symbolism, however, completely drowns out any other meaning it may possess. Same with the confederate flag.

So you're saying it's silly to interpret the flag's meaning in a manner consistent with that of one of it's designers? That's strange.

So, just to be clear, you're saying:

The confederate flag's meaning can only be interpreted based on it's original meaning (I.e, a racists being racist.)

But the swastika's meaning can only be interpreted based on it's "current symbolism."

I think there's a flaw in your logic (and ideology) here. Doesn't the second idea clash with the original one? And doesn't the second one sort of dismantle the idea that flag's original meaning is the only meaning that it can currently have?

 

[Cid Highwind]

So, just to be clear, you're saying:

The confederate flag's meaning can only be interpreted based on it's original meaning (I.e, a racists being racist.)

But the swastika's meaning can only be interpreted based on it's "current symbolism."

I think there's a flaw in your logic (and ideology) here. Doesn't the second idea clash with the original one? And doesn't the second one sort of dismantle the idea that flag's original meaning is the only meaning that it can currently have?

Well when the historical meaning of the racist flag matches it's current one, yes, it can only be interpreted to mean when it was meant to and what it currently does. You did see the photo of white supremacists holding it? After all, it was the Klan that popularized it's usage in the early 20th century. The idea that the flag can mean anything else other than representing racism is a newer interpretation being applied retroactively.

 

[Yellow Yam Scam]

And what I'm saying regarding the flag's meaning is that it's silly to only interpret the flag's meaning in a manner consistent with it's designers. I guarantee that if you ask 9/10 people who fly the flag of the confederacy for whatever reason that they have literally no clue who William R. Postell was or what his racial politics are. Instead, to them, the flag represents whatever their parents or their parents' parents told them it represents. You can call them ignorant all that you'd like, but saying that they're racists because of a flag honestly gives them too much credit by assuming that they are well-read enough to know it's history.

 

[Cid Highwind]

And what I'm saying regarding the flag's meaning is that it's silly to only interpret the flag's meaning in a manner consistent with it's designers. I guarantee that if you ask 9/10 people who fly the flag of the confederacy for whatever reason that they have literally no clue who William R. Postell was or what his racial politics are. Instead, to them, the flag represents whatever their parents or their parents' parents told them it represents. You can call them ignorant all that you'd like, but saying that they're racists because of a flag honestly gives them too much credit by assuming that they are well-read enough to know it's history.

It doesn't matter if you know who Henry Ford is. A car will still work when you try to use it. Saying that people who fly the flag not knowing the names of the designers means that they are therefore not using it in a manner intended by the designer is a meaningless argument.

People can say whatever they want about why they're flying the flag aside from racism. They're lying. I know, I lived in the south for many years and every person I encountered who flew that flag was a flagrant racist. The people who ignore what the flag actually means are, by definition, ignorant. It doesn't represent what their parents told them it does. If I raise children to believe that the Union Jack represents Russia, does that mean it actually does? No, it means me and my children would be ignorant.

 

[Dudeofteenage]

No, the confederate flag isn't a symbol of anti-government conservatism. That would be the "dont tread on me" Gadsden flag.

It's possible to have two different symbols for the same idea.

Although I would be interested to know what you thought the chap who designed this was expressing:

Spoiler: WORLDS COLLIDING

 

[Yellow Yam Scam]

Well when the historical meaning of the racist flag matches it's current one, yes, it can only be interpreted to mean when it was meant to and what it currently does.

First, this argument is completely recursive. You're just telling that's it can only be interpreted in a particular way because you believe that it can only be interpreted in a way.

You did see the photo of white supremacists holding it? After all, it was the Klan that popularized it's usage in the early 20th century. The idea that the flag can mean anything else other than representing racism is a newer interpretation being applied retroactively.

I've also seen John Lewis and Kanye West holding it. Are they racists too? It's an extreme example but it points to how the meaning of symbols are much more nuanced than "I'm a racist" or "I'm not."

 

[Cid Highwind]

It's possible to have two different symbols for the same idea.

Although I would be interested to know what you thought the chap who designed this was expressing:

Spoiler: WORLDS COLLIDING

Looks to me like he is expressing some quality photoshop skills. That's not an actual historical flag, I assume?

First, this argument is completely recursive. You're just telling that's it can only be interpreted in a particular way because you believe that it can only be interpreted in a way.


I've also seen John Lewis and Kanye West holding it. Are they racists too? It's an extreme example but it points to how the meaning of symbols are much more nuanced than "I'm a racist" or "I'm not."

No, I'm telling you it can only be interpreted a specific way because it was designed with that intention, repopularized with the same idea, and used in modern times by the people it appeals to (white supremacists). To pretend that he confederate flag represents anything other than racism makes zero sense.

So if a black man is holding the flag, that means he agrees with it? That's a pretty liberal interpretation of a photograph. What if the photo in question is of someone holding something while they are talking in a negative manner about it? What if Kanye West, while holding the flag, was saying something like "fuck this thing"?

 

[Yellow Yam Scam]

It doesn't matter if you know who Henry Ford is. A car will still work when you try to use it. Saying that people who fly the flag not knowing the names of the designers means that they are therefore not using it in a manner intended by the designer is a meaningless argument.

But if Henry Ford wrote that cars should only be used for transporting turnips, does that mean that by driving a car that you believe that cars can only be used for transporting turnips? No, because perhaps your mother, or your mother's mother told you one day that cars are useful for other things and you saw the sense in that. You can say it's meaningless but I don't see the sense in assuming that someone follows beliefs that they've never heard of.

People can say whatever they want about why they're flying the flag aside from racism. They're lying. I know, I lived in the south for many years and every person I encountered who flew that flag was a flagrant racist. The people who ignore what the flag actually means are, by definition, ignorant. It doesn't represent what their parents told them it does. If I raise children to believe that the Union Jack represents Russia, does that mean it actually does? No, it means me and my children would be ignorant.

This is exactly my point. You'd be ignorant, but not racists. Most people who fly the Confederate Flag are stupid and uneducated ("Rednecks," for short) but, as someone who, like you, has spent a lot of time in the south, I haven't seen anything out of them to indicate that they are racists. They are entirely too boring and mainstream to be actual racists.

 

[Dudeofteenage]

Looks to me like he is expressing some quality photoshop skills. That's not an actual historical flag, I assume?

Not that I know of! But seriously, folks...

While I take your point about the Gadsden Flag, flags are ultimately just another type of symbol. As Derrida said, the interpretation of symbols is free flowing. The least facet of this is that just as one flag can symbolise multiple ideas, multiple flags can symbolise overlapping, or even identical, ideas. The Stars and Bars and the Gadsden Flag are excellent examples of this.

 

[Cid Highwind]

But if Henry Ford wrote that cars should only be used for transporting turnips, does that mean that by driving a car that you believe that cars can only be used for transporting turnips? No, because perhaps your mother, or your mother's mother told you one day that cars are useful for other things and you saw the sense in that. You can say it's meaningless but I don't see the sense in assuming that someone follows beliefs that they've never heard of.



This is exactly my point. You'd be ignorant, but not racists. Most people who fly the Confederate Flag are stupid and uneducated ("Rednecks," for short) but, as someone who, like you, has spent a lot of time in the south, I haven't seen anything out of them to indicate that they are racists. They are entirely too boring and mainstream to be actual racists.

My position still stands, it does not matter than the people who fly the confederate flag are not aware of the names of it's designers. That has no bearing on the situation and you're really reaching by saying that.

The reason you don't see anything about them being racist is that they cannot express this opinion openly and directly anymore. Once upon a time, it was acceptable in polite society to say "i hate those damn niggers". As cultural attitudes have changed, people that have this view learn that they cannot express it. So now they fly the confederate flag. There is only one reason to fly it outside of the south if you are not from the south.

 

[Yellow Yam Scam]

No, I'm telling you it can only be interpreted a specific way because it was designed with that intention, repopularized with the same idea, and used in modern times by the people it appeals to (white supremacists). To pretend that he confederate flag represents anything other than racism makes zero sense.

Someone correct me on this if I'm wrong but this is still completely recursive, right? He's just saying that the meaning didn't change because it didn't change.

So if a black man is holding the flag, that means he agrees with it? That's a pretty liberal interpretation of a photograph. What if the photo in question is of someone holding something while they are talking in a negative manner about it? What if Kanye West, while holding the flag, was saying something like "fuck this thing"?

But yo, here's the trick: I'm not making any assumptions about what anyone believes concerning the flag, that's what you're doing. I know what Kanye was trying to say, but only because he has told us ("Fuck this flag" is essentially correct, yes.) On the other hand, John Lewis, another black man, used it as a symbol of racial unity in the south. He told us this. Without being told, we don't know what Kanye is trying to say when he flies the flag of the confederacy and we don't know what Typical White Southerner is trying to say either. That's my belief. Your belief seems to be that using it makes people racist and I can't ride with that.

Is the Typical White Southerner trying to say "fuck the flag"? Uh, probably not, but there are hundreds of degrees between that and "Kill niggers" (Most of which are purely fashion statements) and it's inappropriate to paint all these people with the same brush.

 

[HG 400]

No, I'm telling you it can only be interpreted a specific way because it was designed with that intention, repopularized with the same idea, and used in modern times by the people it appeals to (white supremacists). To pretend that he confederate flag represents anything other than racism makes zero sense.

In the Baltic countries, the swastika is a still a sign of good luck and fortune. In the Soviet Union it meant anti-communism and anti-authoritarianism. In East Asia it's just a symbol of a militaristic regime seen as no different from Napoleon or Caesars. In Australia there are black gangs who fly it proudly because they feel it means power and strength.

Are good-natured Latvians, rebellious Russians, cosplaying Japanese and black Australian gang members all just anti-semetic neo-nazis who are lying about it, because it's inconceivable to you that a symbol could mean different things to different people?

 

[Yellow Yam Scam]

My position still stands, it does not matter than the people who fly the confederate flag are not aware of the names of it's designers. That has no bearing on the situation and you're really reaching by saying that.

The reason you don't see anything about them being racist is that they cannot express this opinion openly and directly anymore. Once upon a time, it was acceptable in polite society to say "i hate those damn niggers". As cultural attitudes have changed, people that have this view learn that they cannot express it. So now they fly the confederate flag. There is only one reason to fly it outside of the south if you are not from the south.

This is the Imperial Flag Of Japan. You probably know that this is essentially the Japanese equivalent of a swastika in the eyes of Koreans and Chinese (And was to the Japanese as well, about 50 years ago.)

Is the artist who created E. Honda's Street Fighter 2 stage a racist?

Is this cool, hip millennial a racist?

Is this mediocre band racist?

This Japanese Navy dude? Maybe! I never met the dude, he might really despise all Koreans. At one point this flag represented the need to stomp all Koreans out of existence, now it's seen as a shockingly forward-thinking bit of graphic design or a sign of good fortune.

Like the Imperial Flag Of Japan, it seems to me that the reason why the Confederate flag is so popular in the south is not because it a symbol of their racism, but because to most of them, it is such a benign and mainstreamed symbol that it's effectively meaningless, no different from a Rolling Stones logo on a t-shirt. To another percentage it is about southern pride, and certainly to others it is a symbol of their outright racism. But these are all different people from different communities with different beliefs or non-beliefs about what their silly little dead flag means.