The Confederate Flag

[*Asterisk*]

Here's my issue with all this current hullabaloo over the Confederate Flag: Dylan Roof's actions are unforgivable regardless of what symbols he used as his trinkets, and attacking the symbols for causing the problem is absurd. The same thing happened when Charles Manson found hidden messages in the White Album telling him to start a race war. And rather than focusing on what actually causes troubled young women to flock to a mentally retarded demagogue who hears a voice telling him to kill Roman Polanski's wife, people focused their blame on the album.

This type of thing happens all the time, and it needs to come to an end. Hateful, retarded demagogues like Charles Manson, Dylan Roof, and Elliot Rodger are always gonna find new symbols to cloud themselves in. But its their philosophies and actions which are evil, not their adornments.

Its the same issue with the Confederate Flag. I'm never concerned with the symbols people choose to represent themselves with, I'm concerned with their beliefs and actions. Telling the Ron Pauls of the world taking down their Confederate Flag will take down their racism is both a lie and actively counterproductive. Instead, people need to directly attack the actual racist actions racists take, and attack the racist ideas they support. Or, to put it another way: when a man calls the police on an eleven year old negro and he happens to be wearing a Confederate Flag T-shirt, don't say he can make things good by getting rid of the T-shirt. Punish the motherfucker by sending him to the can for harassment, punish the police officer too if they hurt said eleven year old, and drill it into peoples heads that the constant harassment of black people is both morally wrong and won't be tolerated in this country.

 

[Dudeofteenage]

Telling the Ron Pauls of the world taking down their Confederate Flag will take down their racism is both a lie and actively counterproductive.

Except that nobody is telling them that... oh, why do I even fucking bother.

 

[*Asterisk*]

Except that nobody is telling them that... oh, why do I even fucking bother.

Also, Apple is now removing Civil War games in the App Store....because they contain the Confederate flag.

Your point?

 

[dabluearmedbandit]

Spoiler: oh shit

 

[Squealer]

Your point?

The point is that negros are getting pissed that the honkies have a flag they take pride in, much like how the negros have rap music, and weed

 

[Locksnap]

Your point?

While Apples decision is moronic and unjust, its being done for commercial reasons rather than out of moralism. Nobody in Apple gives a shit one way or the other, its just a way of deflecting unwanted controversy.

 

[Marvin]

My experience with them tells me that the exact opposite is true. A great majority of the ones I've encountered are apolitical rednecks who wear and fly it because it's a chic thing to do in their discourse community.

It's tricky to talk about the less explicit forms of racism because it's not something that can be proven. For example, when people use racially charged language, like talking about "welfare recipients" or "thugs" or things like that.

I usually avoid directly accusing people of racism when they use language like that because it's rarely productive. I try to talk about bigger issues. Also, I think most people guilty of misusing those terms do genuinely see themselves as being egalitarian. They just never consider that they might have personal biases impacting their actions.

So because of this, I try to be sympathetic. Getting into a slapfight over "you're racist!" versus "no, I just tell it like it is!" isn't very helpful.

However, when it comes to people displaying the confederate flag, I see a normal person, like I described above, who has the same biases everyone else has. Except the confederate flag says that they're basically giving up on even having a semblance of being egalitarian. They're just giving up.

To me, that's why I say that displaying the confederate flag almost certainly labels you as racist.

However, I'll note that my experiences are colored strongly by where I'm from. I'm from a rural part of a border state. Where I'm from, the confederate flag isn't an everyday thing. When someone here displays it, its meaning is essentially "fuck you".

Your point?

Consumer boycotts are not the same thing as censorship. No one is telling you you can't have one. They're just telling you that they're not going to make you one.

 

[*Asterisk*]

While Apples decision is moronic and unjust, its being done for commercial reasons rather than out of moralism. Nobody in Apple gives a shit one way or the other, its just a way of deflecting unwanted controversy.

I don't care about why they're doing it, I care that they're doing it.

This happens every Goddamn time there's a sensationalized crime. It happened after Columbine when people blamed and censured Marilyn Manson and Doom for the crime of being the ornamentation of the two hateful, retarded, virgin chucklekfucks who caused that atrocity. It happened after Benghazi when people blamed a modern day Manos: the Hands of Fate for causing a terrorist attack. Now its 2015 and happening with the Confederate Flag.

We've learned not a Goddamn thing. Hell, if anything, we're going backwards.

 

[Dudeofteenage]

Your point?

My point is that nobody is advocating making display of the Confederate flag illegal. Apple's decision to stop selling certain products doesn't change that.

I usually avoid directly accusing people of racism when they use language like that because it's rarely productive. I try to talk about bigger issues.

A lot of people say that it's more productive to say "That thing you said was racist" than "You are a racist". I can see the logic, and it's much easier to defend, since it's much easier to make a definitive statement about a single instance of speech than about a whole person. But in practice, very few people will appreciate the difference, especially in the heat of the moment.

 

[Squealer]

Honestly, anyone who thinks we have no right to fly OUR flag is racist, and nees to get over themselves

 

[Bronchitis that Lingers]

I don't care about why they're doing it, I care that they're doing it.

This happens every Goddamn time there's a sensationalized crime. It happened after Columbine when people blamed and censured Marilyn Manson and Doom for the crime of being the ornamentation of the two hateful, retarded, virgin chucklekfucks who caused that atrocity. It happened after Benghazi when people blamed a modern day Manos: the Hands of Fate for causing a terrorist attack. Now its 2015 and happening with the Confederate Flag.

We've learned not a Goddamn thing. Hell, if anything, we're going backwards.

Dude, I'm on your side with this, but you have to understand that Apple is a huge corporation that is susceptible to lawsuits because they have the money to dish out if someone actually takes them to court over something. This is like that little message you get from iTunes when you download unsavory apps (such as for jailbreaking), that say "we can not stop you from downloading this, but stress the immoral implications that come with downloading it". No one at Apple really gives a shit that you're trying to get free skips on Pandora, but Pandora cares because they're losing money, and they can start something with Apple over that, just like how someone can claim that they're racist for having Civil War games on their store.
They're just covering their asses.

 

[*Asterisk*]

My point is that nobody is advocating making display of the Confederate flag illegal. Apple's decision to stop selling certain products doesn't change that.

It does change that.

Freedom of expression and inquiry and the First Amendment aren't the same thing. The First Amendment is a good start towards achieving a society devoted to free inquiry, but the people involved in working towards that have to actually see a free society as a valuable thing in and of itself rather than constantly try to find legal workarounds to circumvent the spirit of the law.

Besides, there's still plenty of reprehensible racist garbage that people can still easily buy through these big companies any time they want. Why should Pat Buchanan's books get a free pass when the Confederate Flag doesn't? It's hypocrisy and censorship, plain and simple.

 

[ShavedSheep]

I just think it looks cool.

 

[Bork Laser]

This was when I lived in New Jersey

This is still a thing in Jersey. In South Jersey you have a mix of rural and suburban areas. Unlike the south, where you can make the argument its for heritage and/or racism, here its more like edgey4u teens and young adults who see it as a sign of rebellion against the government. It's also not unsual to see black people with bumper stickers or the actual flag riding around with it up here.

But again this is more so for the reason of them trying to make a "statement" against the government. These are the same people who post info wars links on facebook as actual news sources.

 

[*Asterisk*]

Dude, I'm on your side with this, but you have to understand that Apple is a huge corporation that is susceptible to lawsuits because they have the money to dish out if someone actually takes them to court over something. This is like that little message you get from iTunes when you download unsavory apps (such as for jailbreaking), that say "we can not stop you from downloading this, but stress the immoral implications that come with downloading it". No one at Apple really gives a shit that you're trying to get free skips on Pandora, but Pandora cares because they're losing money, and they can start something with Apple over that.
They're just covering their asses.

Again, I understand why this happened, seeing as how it happens every single time after a Charleston Affair since the day I was born. But just because I know why something happens doesn't mean it should happen anyway.

 

[Dudeofteenage]

It does change that.

People want to buy Pat Buchanan's books. They don't, at least at this point in time, want to buy stuff depicting the Confederate flag. Or at least, that's Apple's calculation. Their calculation may well be wrong, but the only people they're hurting are themselves.

There are lots of things I'd like to be able to buy that Apple won't sell me. I'd love to be able to buy a video game about a timetraveling bisexual anthromorphic cat who's best friends with Napoleon. I don't think Apple's refusal to sell it to me is at all injurious to free inquiry, though.

 

[Cid Highwind]

Honestly, anyone who thinks we have no right to fly OUR flag is racist, and nees to get over themselves

Yeah, because me moving away from the south due to rampant racism and my dislike of a symbol of racial hatred makes me a racist. I see your logic.

Except that nobody is telling them that... oh, why do I even fucking bother.

You're chasing your tail, man!

 

[Marvin]

I think we established already that symbols, including this flag, mean different things to different people. Not everyone in the Confederacy in the 1800s felt the same way about slavery, some were against it. Some states seceded for different reasons, or multiple reasons.

"Not everyone" is not the same thing as "a significant portion". The Civil war was about slavery, plain and simple. There's more to it, because obviously anything involving millions of people won't have a simple explanation. But still, you're nitpicking.

Just because a lot of people view an image as offensive or racist shouldn't be cause for one to censor themselves.

That's actually a really good reason to censor yourself, actually. Assuming you don't want people to think you're racist, you'll generally refrain from saying racist things.

Besides, there's still plenty of reprehensible racist garbage that people can still easily buy through these big companies any time they want. Why should Pat Buchanan's books get a free pass when the Confederate Flag doesn't? It's hypocrisy and censorship, plain and simple.

Books are harder to evaluate than symbols.

 

[Le Bateleur]

The confederate flag is pretty useful here in the UK. It's an almost 100% accurate way to identify -and thus avoid - people who enjoy line dancing and country music.

 

[dabluearmedbandit]

Yeah, because me moving away from the south due to rampant racism and my dislike of a symbol of racial hatred makes me a racist. I see your logic.

What racism did you experience that made you move? I'm not trying to argue, I'm genuinely just trying to see this from your point of view.