The Confederate Flag

[Holdek]

Again, my objection to this isn't because what they're doing is a violation of the letter of the First Amendment. That never has, and never will be my argument.

And what I'm telling you is that Apple, a business that exists to maximize profits for its shareholders, is not violating the spirit of the First Amendment, or the general principle of freedom of speech, either.

 

[*Asterisk*]

And what I'm telling you is that Apple, a business that exists to maximize profits for its shareholders, is not violating the spirit of the First Amendment, or the general principle of freedom of speech, either.

Apple is taking a product people want, and is choosing not only to not sell the product themselves, but censure entrepreneurs who not only sell the product, but sell products which contain even references to said product.

In what planet is this not a violation of the principles of free expression? What if tomorrow they pull every song on iTunes with the word "nigger" in it? I hate coony ass shit like Lil' Wayne as much as the next person who didn't eat lead paint chips as a child, but banning his music just because I find it offensive would be wrong.

Apple is morally wrong for doing this, as is every other company going along with this absurd censure of Confederate Iconography.

 

[Joan Nyan]

You already missed the point completely with the first sentence of your third paragraph. Free speech and the First Amendment are not, and have never been, the same thing.

Again, my objection to this isn't because what they're doing is a violation of the letter of the First Amendment. That never has, and never will be my argument.

What I'm saying is that freedom of expression is a moral principle worth sticking towards regardless of weather or not you have the ability to get away with violating it. There are countless instances where people and corporations practice some form of censorship, which are entirely in the clear legally, but are still ethically reprehensible. George Lucas, for instance, with his locking away of the Original Star Wars films' masters. There's nothing illegal about it whatsoever, but it's still morally wrong for him to do so. And morality is infinitely more valuable than any law.

In what planet is this not a violation of the principles of free expression? What if tomorrow they pull every song on iTunes with the word "nigger" in it? I hate coony ass shit like Lil' Wayne as much as the next person who didn't eat lead paint chips as a child, but banning his music just because I find it offensive would be wrong.

But doesn't Apple et al. have the freedom to express their dislike of the Confederate Flag or the nigger word by not selling it? Also lol star wars is for autists.

 

[Null]

Have you deliberately ignored everything that goes on in this site?

I don't agree with all of his opinions, but @Null has consistently championed freedom of expression every time the topic comes up. Yes, posters have been banned for things like spergery or posting in the Mr. Enter thread. But not once has a poster been banned for their views or their ideas. @NostalgiaJazzAdmirer hasn't been banned. @umad hasn't been banned. @Holden hasn't been banned. If Marijan were drowning, I'm certain Null would toss him a cannonball, and yet he still won't ban him.

That's how you value freedom of expression.

No, I'm actually going to disagree with you here.

There's a process to making a flag. You must farm a material, ship it, process it, shape it, weave it. You must collect the dyes, ship it, process it, color it. These steps are done by different people by different trade. The flag, a product, arrives in a warehouse as a complete product and is sold to retailers who then upsale it for a profit. These facilities are also manned by people in trades.

Nobody is obligated to sell you the flag you want. That's how commercialism works.

Freedom of expression is different, and if you want to take the blanket off your bed and dye it to look like the Confederate Flag, at that point you can wave it anywhere you want. I don't give a shit if it's the state capitol. Same could be said for the Nazi flag or the ISIS flag or whatever.

But that's different from retailers.

You can't impose a moral judgement on a retailer. Maybe if the flags were being sold from a website called Flags'R'Us who made it their company mission to provide literally every flag possible, historic fantasy or otherwise, then you could make the case that it's their "moral duty", but if they wanted to ban only the Confederate flag and include a Nazi flag free with every purchase, that's their right.

 

[Ruin]

Gotta agree with Null here. Moral panics are misguided and the sjws who think banning a flag with lead to perfect racial harmony are retarded, but no one can compel a private entity to sell something they don't want to.

 

[Holdek]

Apple is morally wrong for doing this, as is every other company going along with this absurd censure of Confederate Iconography.

I really hope you are trolling.

 

[Space_Dandy]

Apple sucks either way.

 

[*Asterisk*]

But doesn't Apple et al. have the freedom to express their dislike of the Confederate Flag by not selling it? Also lol star wars is for autists.

We're talking about some of the largest retailers on planet Earth. For many people, these are the only ways they buy anything. Of course people can still get a hold of these products, but it's immoral of these companies to pull these Confederate Iconography products because of their moral policing.

And it's not like there's any consistency here. You can buy the complete works of David Duke on Amazon right this second if you want. Including the one he wrote with a burning American Flag trapped in the Star of David on the cover. You can buy the North Korean flag on Etsy. You can buy a T-shirt emblazoned with the Prophet Muhammad carrying a bomb in his turban on Google.

I'm happy for all these things, but they will go away the more we let shit like this happen.

You can't impose a moral judgement on a retailer. Maybe if the flags were being sold from a website called Flags'R'Us who made it their company mission to provide literally every flag possible, historic fantasy or otherwise, then you could make the case that it's their "moral duty", but if they wanted to ban only the Confederate flag and include a Nazi flag free with every purchase, that's their right.

I'm not saying they don't have a legal right to do this. I just hate that they're doing this because it's both morally wrong, and it'll set a bad precedent.

Companies have always had the right to be spineless, cowardly, and nanny people about. But something being legal is never the measure of weather or not it's right.

 

[DuskEngine]

@NostalgiaJazzAdmirer hasn't been banned.

Truly a more grievous crime than the War of Northern Aggression.

 

[Null]

I'm not saying they don't have a legal right to do this. I just hate that they're doing this because it's both morally wrong, and it'll set a bad precedent.

Companies have always had the right to be spineless, cowardly, and nanny people about. But something being legal is never the measure of weather or not it's right.

Companies do what they think they will make the look good and sell more shit.

"Oh, there's hubub about the confederate flag. we'll stop selling it" - some guy in a company who likes making money

 

[*Asterisk*]

Companies do what they think they will make the look good and sell more shit.

"Oh, there's hubub about the confederate flag. we'll stop selling it" - some guy in a company who likes making money

I know this all too well, seeing as how something similar has happened nearly every single time there's a tragic news story.

I'm not gonna stop hating them for it. This same thing'll likely happen many more times in the foreseeable future, and I'll oppose it every time. The David Dukes of the world shouldn't be driven into the dark, they should be brought into the sun so they can shrivel like a snail.

 

[HG 400]

Truly a more grievous crime than the War of Northern Aggression.

There is no crime more heinous than the unwarranted aggression of The Damn Yankee.

 

[*Asterisk*]

There is no crime more heinous than the unwarranted aggression of The Damn Yankee.

NJA's posts were delivered to General Sherman via a telegraph time machine. When he heard them recited, he impaled a war orphan onto a plantation fence.

 

[DuskEngine]

Do you just not value the principle of the First Amendment at all?

In all seriousness, do you not value the principle of the free market? There will still be people who want to buy the Confederate flag (in fact, I would not at all be surprised if sales spiked after this little moral panic). There will still be places on the internet to buy them. All it will take for anyone to find one is a little extra searching.

 

[KingofManga420]

words and shit

How on Earth is it morally wrong to choose to stop supplying a product? You may not agree with it but calling it a moral outrage simply because a corporation wants to look good and make money is pretty autistic.

Also very classy of how not racist you are, dropping the n-word and using the term "coony ass-shit" I swear this is Dr. Foreskin pt 2

 

[Null]

I know this all too well, seeing as how something similar has happened nearly every single time there's a tragic news story.

I'm not gonna stop hating them for it. This same thing'll likely happen many more times in the foreseeable future, and I'll oppose it every time. The David Dukes of the world shouldn't be driven into the dark, they should be brought into the sun so they can shrivel like a snail.

whatever then dude. nobody else cares about this issue as much as you do. protest alone.

 

[*Asterisk*]

In all seriousness, do you not value the principle of the free market? There will still be people who want to buy the Confederate flag (in fact, I would not at all be surprised if sales spiked after this little moral panic). There will still be places on the internet to buy them. All it will take for anyone to find one is a little extra searching.

This isn't a fair or consistent policy, plain and simple. You can go onto iTunes right now and buy the track where Ice Cube threatens Korean people with a pogrom. Should Death Certificate be pulled from iTunes because of Ice Cube's hatred of Jews and Koreans? Does it reflect badly on Apple that they choose to sell blatantly racist products on their store? No, and no.

How on Earth is it morally wrong to choose to stop supplying a product? You may not agree with it but calling it a moral outrage simply because a corporation wants to look good and make money is pretty autistic.

Also very classy of how not racist you are, dropping the n-word and using the term "coony ass-shit" I swear this is Dr. Foreskin pt 2

Why should any store decide which means of personal expression are good and bad for you?

There is no reason being applied to the dropping of this iconography. As I've linked to countless times in this thread, you can easily buy books and products from Nazis, Klansmen, racists, communists, fascists, Michelle Malkin, and hundreds of other reprehensible individuals.

Where should we draw the line on this? Who do you think should have the right to decide which means of expression are okay for you? And if you do have someone in mind, what do you propose to do to stop them from hammering down on innocent people?

I vote for nobody.

whatever then dude. nobody else cares about this issue as much as you do. protest alone.

It's a pretty silly example, but sometimes that's just the way things role. The same thing happened with 2 Live Crew back in the day.

 

[HG 400]

*Asterisk* is right you guys did you know that the Union had a nazi concentration camp called point lookout and somehow it's okay for them to make a Fallout DLC out of that just to mock my ancestors who died fighting to keep us safe from the dubious mercies of the pernicious negroe.

 

[Coster]

There is no reason being applied to the dropping of this iconography.

Yes, there is. It's currently a hot issue, so naturally they're going to immediately respond while everything's fresh news. They take their stance on it, the people who feel similarly buy more products from them out of respect for shared views, and then the people who dislike it buy their products anyway.

 

[Shokew]

I still say FUCK. YOUR. REBEL. FLAG. However, leave those who want to have one so damn badly alone already - at least we can pick out who the real fucked up ones are for fully understanding what that shit stands for... I hope.

TBRFH, There's no way, as much as I'd love to see it before I die at the least, the Confederate Flag is going to be removed from existence or considered illegal or whatnot even after all of this, knowing the truths put in front of us about Free Market and a demand for it, for example.