Star Wars Griefing Thread (SPOILERS) - Safety off

The best Fett stuff is the Bounty Hunter Wars trilogy. Who was the main character of that trilogy? Dengar, Neelah, and Bossk. All three have full arcs to a satisfying conclusion. Who wasn't the main character? Boba Fett. He was simply the exciting means to get Neelah, Dengar, and Bossk from beginning to end of their arcs. Boba Fett doesnt change at all through three novels. He was there to be a badass and do badass stuff. That's his character. If it was just Boba Fett you'd have three novels worth of that short story from Tales from the Empire where he BTFOs an entire Imperial garrison to get the General's brother. Which was fine but forgettable. Fett is interesting in action, surviving against the odds, getting into confrontations with characters that have more depth like the one with Xizor in Hard Merchandise. He is boring otherwise. He is good when he's in the focus, not when he IS the focus.
 
The best Fett stuff is the Bounty Hunter Wars trilogy. Who was the main character of that trilogy? Dengar, Neelah, and Bossk. All three have full arcs to a satisfying conclusion. Who wasn't the main character? Boba Fett. He was simply the exciting means to get Neelah, Dengar, and Bossk from beginning to end of their arcs. Boba Fett doesnt change at all through three novels. He was there to be a badass and do badass stuff. That's his character. If it was just Boba Fett you'd have three novels worth of that short story from Tales from the Empire where he BTFOs an entire Imperial garrison to get the General's brother. Which was fine but forgettable. Fett is interesting in action, surviving against the odds, getting into confrontations like the one with Xizor in Hard Merchandise. He is boring otherwise.
Exactly. He's a static character. To give him a character arc that would change him would make him lose his appeal as a badass merc, but if he spends too much time hogging the spotlight, people would get bored at this guy who just remains who he is 100% of the time, and the Rule of Cool can only carry you so far for so long before the fans begin to complain.
 
The better way to put it would be that Palpatine was doing the right thing for preparing against the Vong, but he did it with all the wrong methods and reasons. (ie. slavery, murder, genocide) It also makes the Jedi look good for defeating the Vong without having to resort to Palpatine's extreme methods.
That's pretty much what the books did.

Er, no. Even in Dark Empire, where Palpatine was at his strongest, when he tries to command the spirits of the Ancient Sith to heal his broken clone body after it was ravaged by a virus, their response was "LOL NO, GO FUCK YOURSELF" before showing him Baby Anakin Solo so that he'd go on a suicide mission to Onderon where he gets killed by Han Solo and some Jedi survivor of Order 66. So it makes sense to introduce guys like Vitiate who can snap Sidious in half, especially when in the one comic book where Palpatine was at his strongest, the Ancient Sith saw him as a dilettante who lost his power within mere decades while they have ruled for centuries in their time. Among the people of the New Republic/Galactic Alliance who have long since forgotten the history of the Ancient Sith, Palpatine was the baddest mofo amongst the Sith, but from the POV of the Ancient Sith Lords, he's a wannabe who can never measure up to their power, since he was toppled in mere decades.
You can make that argument, but for me, it's too much in conflict with G-canon. I don't think the EU should reduce the in-universe significance of the conflict in Lucas's films to a historical afterthought, and make the nebulous "Outlander" a hero of greater stature than Luke Skywalker.

TBH, you recently tried to deny and doublethink away the fact that Traviss liked her men having fun in a gay bathhouse and who flirts quite often with gay couples.
I don't recall denying that Traviss wrote a homo couple into LOTF (I don't recall anything about bathhouses, however). I simply don't agree with it as a realistic/plausible/believable addition to the kind of society that she constructed for the Mandalorians. 🤷‍♂️

All while rejecting all non-human mando designs for specifically one in shape bounty hunter man.
What's this in reference to, specifically?

A bit on the closeted side I'd say.
Seriously? You're the one who can barely manage a response to one of my posts without turning it into some kind of sexualized ad-hominem. 😆

This would've been the part I stopped taking you seriously, but that was a long time ago when you dismissed one of the main lore writers for another series.
A good length of this thread is composed of "dismiss[ing]" the main lore writers for various series, such as George Lucas. Merely being the head creative does not render one immune to criticism of one's writing and creative decisions. As for the writer in question, I continue to hold firm that it's patently unrealistic for Eric Nylund to have portrayed Catherine Halsey as "a good person" given the things that she did. However, I don't think that the more critical point of view of Halsey as articulated by Traviss was actually originated by Traviss. Rather, I suspect that she was simply following the lead of the most recent lore penned by Nylund (Halo: Reach and The Journal of Catherine Halsey) which predate tge publication of Traviss's novels and paint the "good" doctor in a much more negative light.

I'm actually more baffled because of that now given the doublethinking away of the homoeroticism tbh.
LOL

It's also telling that you seriously hate Ron Moore as a writer rather than Braga of time-parodox obssession fame too. Braga, for all his efforts in the franchise, was guiltier of writing shit scripts than Moore, given he most supported those bottle ship episodes where causality loops were a thing. I'd almost suspect you hate Moore because he too focuses on a warrior race, but because they don't have the Boba Fett armor and honestly are more often known in geek culture that's unnacceptable.

Because holy shit you can thank Moore for actually some of the best episodes in DS9 and if you liked Worf as a character, thank him for expanding on his relations with Klingon culture.
I don't hate Moore's writing for DS9. I'm actually quite fond of the series (still going back and forth on whether it's my favorite Trek iteration or not) and the elaboration/development of alien cultures like the Klingons and Cardassians in particular. I'm not sure where or how you came to believe otherwise, other than this mysterious, reflexive urge to paint everything I say in the most ridiculously negative terms you can think of. 🤔

Traviss was big on LGBT in Star Wars. It's not like KOTOR where Juhani's lesbianism was something that was off the beaten path, Traviss openly wrote her Mandos are OK with man-on-man love.
Actually, the revelation that Goran and Medrit Bevin were two dudes came as something of a surprise at the time.

Klingon is practically the Latin of geekdom, is it not? I don't think Mando'a got that far outside of being used for songs in the Republic Commando game.
Mando'a is used quite extensively in the Bounty Hunter Mandalorian campaign for TOR, shockingly enough, to the point of inventing new terminology, like the Geroya be Haran. Drew Karpyshyn also incorporated a fair bit of the language into his Revan novel, there's Mando'a in the KOTOR comics and Legacy, Stover's Luke Skywalker and the Shadows of Mindor...really, anywhere that Mandalorians turn up in the EU following the publication of the Republic Commando novels, you're probably going to see a bit of Mando'a in use.
DS9 salvaged Trek from being a tunnel-vision series by subverting some of Roddenberry's single-minded anti-capitalism, and Worf is one of latter-era Trek's most beloved characters.
Huzzah, something that we agree on. 😏

Would that your words could pierce his safe space. *sigh*:roll:

Not at all SJWish to block people because their words 'twigger you.'. :lol:
For the record, I've been blocking you, Adam'ika, the Imp and Cactus guy for the past few months because I've been trying to avoid getting drawn back into the kind of circular, essay-length, autistic slap-fights that people were complaining about clogging up the thread at the time. Serves me right for trying to be community-minded, I guess... 🙃

No, some get mad because they don't like thinking about and reflecting on their suppressed desire for Boba to disintegrate their pants and take them roughly on carbonite while growling in the ear with an accent.
Dude, you need help. Like, seriously.

The best Fett stuff is the Bounty Hunter Wars trilogy. Who was the main character of that trilogy? Dengar, Neelah, and Bossk. All three have full arcs to a satisfying conclusion. Who wasn't the main character? Boba Fett. He was simply the exciting means to get Neelah, Dengar, and Bossk from beginning to end of their arcs. Boba Fett doesnt change at all through three novels. He was there to be a badass and do badass stuff. That's his character. If it was just Boba Fett you'd have three novels worth of that short story from Tales from the Empire where he BTFOs an entire Imperial garrison to get the General's brother. Which was fine but forgettable. Fett is interesting in action, surviving against the odds, getting into confrontations with characters that have more depth like the one with Xizor in Hard Merchandise. He is boring otherwise. He is good when he's in the focus, not when he IS the focus.
You must be thinking of a different Bounty Hunter Wars trilogy. 😉
 
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Amen. DS9 was honestly a fucking gem for me and had that adventurous feel and sense of wonder I love to see in scifi, much like with SW. And the acting... wow.
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Also Dukat was fucking based.
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DS9 was the best Trek show next to TOS. Fucking fight me.

I couldn't agree more. In fact, I'll take it a step further. It's the best Trek outside of the movies because Gene Roddenberry wasn't involved in it.

Boom!. Mike dropped.

Your Dukat falls before my Garak!

 
You can make that argument, but for me, it's too much in conflict with G-canon. I don't think the EU should reduce the in-universe significance of the conflict in Lucas's films to a historical afterthought, and make the nebulous "Outlander" a hero of greater stature than Luke Skywalker.
How the hell is it in conflict with G-canon? Even in G-canon lore we have Sith that are stronger than Sidious. Hell, the reason Sidious even bothers to recruit Anakin instead of letting him die with the rest of the Jedi Lemmings is because HE'S NOT STRONG ENOUGH. Sidious even talked about how Darth Plagueis can alter life as they knew it, something which Sidious himself cannot do, hence why he tried taking in Anakin as his protege. On the OT front, Vader even says that destroying a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force, and all Vitiate, Nihilus, and Naga Sadow did was prove him right!

Also, the Outlander is a mythical figure whose existence has long been forgotten by the time of the Prequels. Not to mention that having heroes as great as Luke in the far past isn't really that bad. I mean, our past had guys like Alexander the Great, Julius Caesar, Genghis Khan, Charlemagne and many other great figures that can easily be the equal of, if not greater than, modern heroes like Winston Churchill, Douglass McArthur, or Ronald Reagan. Saying that Luke has to be the greatest SW hero IN ALL OF SW HISTORY is rather single-minded, isn't it? Especially since, as Vader said, there were once Force-users who can make planetary destruction look like shit, so one can wonder about the heroic status of the people who put a stop to those kinds of monsters.

A good length of this thread is composed of "dismiss[ing]" the main lore writers for various series, such as George Lucas. Merely being the head creative does not render one immune to criticism of one's writing and creative decisions. As for the writer in question, I continue to hold firm that it's patently unrealistic for Eric Nylund to have portrayed Catherine Halsey as "a good person" given the things that she did. However, I don't think that the more critical point of view of Halsey as articulated by Traviss was actually originated by Traviss. Rather, I suspect that she was simply following the lead of the most recent lore penned by Nylund (Halo: Reach and The Journal of Catherine Halsey) which predate tge publication of Traviss's novels and paint the "good" doctor in a much more negative light.
Actually, Halsey was one of the few people who can be seen as human in the Spartan-II program. The rest of ONI didn't care, most of the people there didn't care, Halsey was one of the few to express sorrow and regret over all the suffering those kids went through, not to mention she tried to care for those who survived and saw them as her children. I was there back then when Halo 1 was released, and nowhere was it portrayed among the fans or the lore that Halsey was a cold-hearted bitch. Rather, she was just ordered by ONI to do what she did, and she was one of the few who actually had enough humanity to be sad about it. Meanwhile, ONI proceeded with the Spartan-III program which used kids as fucking expendalbe suicide soldiers. If you want, we can talk about this more on the actual Halo thread.

Actually, the revelation that Goran and Medrit Bevin were two dudes came as something of a surprise at the time.
But it wasn't off the beaten path like Juhani was. Most KOTOR players didn't even know she was gay until after their second or third playthroughs.

Mando'a is used quite extensively in the Bounty Hunter Mandalorian campaign for TOR, shockingly enough, to the point of inventing new terminology, like the Geroya be Haran. Drew Karpyshyn also incorporated a fair bit of the language into his Revan novel.
Yeah, and how is that compared to Klingon? And with TOR not being that well-loved among fans (something I know as a fan of TOR first-hand) and the fact that the Revan novel was HATED by its target audience, most SW fans have only heard Mando'a from the Republic Commando game.

Huzzah, something that we agree on. 😏
It's not really that uncommon to find people sick of Roddenberry's pontificating who love DS9. I mean, Trek got downright aggressive with the pontificating and the technobabble in the eras of TNG and Voyager, so when DS9 took a fresh stance, it was like the KOTOR 2 of Star Trek, and was just as loved by the Trekkies as K2 was by SW fans.
 
You must be thinking of a different Bounty Hunter Wars trilogy. 😉

I dont know you.

Winking at me.

Such familiarity.

Stranger danger.

Boba Fett is a macguffin in the Bounty Hunter Wars. Everybody wants him, to further their schemes, or to die to cover up their schemes, or to die because he's a big meanie who keeps embarrassing poor Bossk.

He's not the main character. That's why he is constantly surrounded with characters who are more interesting. Boba Fett as a bounty hunter is so kewl, Boba Fett as a person is boring.
 
The best Fett stuff is the Bounty Hunter Wars trilogy. Who was the main character of that trilogy? Dengar, Neelah, and Bossk. All three have full arcs to a satisfying conclusion. Who wasn't the main character? Boba Fett. He was simply the exciting means to get Neelah, Dengar, and Bossk from beginning to end of their arcs. Boba Fett doesnt change at all through three novels. He was there to be a badass and do badass stuff. That's his character. If it was just Boba Fett you'd have three novels worth of that short story from Tales from the Empire where he BTFOs an entire Imperial garrison to get the General's brother. Which was fine but forgettable. Fett is interesting in action, surviving against the odds, getting into confrontations with characters that have more depth like the one with Xizor in Hard Merchandise. He is boring otherwise. He is good when he's in the focus, not when he IS the focus.

He does best with a foil. But he is a fully formed character.

I love that story. It along with Bounty Hunter Wars is my Fett Ur text for the character. If it doesn't fit in those two I tend to reject it.
 
How the hell is it in conflict with G-canon? Even in G-canon lore we have Sith that are stronger than Sidious. Hell, the reason Sidious even bothers to recruit Anakin instead of letting him die with the rest of the Jedi Lemmings is because HE'S NOT STRONG ENOUGH. Sidious even talked about how Darth Plagueis can alter life as they knew it, something which Sidious himself cannot do, hence why he tried taking in Anakin as his protege. On the OT front, Vader even says that destroying a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force, and all Vitiate, Nihilus, and Naga Sadow did was prove him right!

Also, the Outlander is a mythical figure whose existence has long been forgotten by the time of the Prequels. Not to mention that having heroes as great as Luke in the far past isn't really that bad. I mean, our past had guys like Alexander the Great, Julius Caesar, Genghis Khan, Charlemagne and many other great figures that can easily be the equal of, if not greater than, modern heroes like Winston Churchill, Douglass McArthur, or Ronald Reagan. Saying that Luke has to be the greatest SW hero IN ALL OF SW HISTORY is rather single-minded, isn't it? Especially since, as Vader said, there were once Force-users who can make planetary destruction look like shit, so one can wonder about the heroic status of the people who put a stop to those kinds of monsters.


Actually, Halsey was one of the few people who can be seen as human in the Spartan-II program. The rest of ONI didn't care, most of the people there didn't care, Halsey was one of the few to express sorrow and regret over all the suffering those kids went through, not to mention she tried to care for those who survived and saw them as her children. I was there back then when Halo 1 was released, and nowhere was it portrayed among the fans or the lore that Halsey was a cold-hearted bitch. Rather, she was just ordered by ONI to do what she did, and she was one of the few who actually had enough humanity to be sad about it. Meanwhile, ONI proceeded with the Spartan-III program which used kids as fucking expendalbe suicide soldiers. If you want, we can talk about this more on the actual Halo thread.


But it wasn't off the beaten path like Juhani was. Most KOTOR players didn't even know she was gay until after their second or third playthroughs.


Yeah, and how is that compared to Klingon? And with TOR not being that well-loved among fans (something I know as a fan of TOR first-hand) and the fact that the Revan novel was HATED by its target audience, most SW fans have only heard Mando'a from the Republic Commando game.


It's not really that uncommon to find people sick of Roddenberry's pontificating who love DS9. I mean, Trek got downright aggressive with the pontificating and the technobabble in the eras of TNG and Voyager, so when DS9 took a fresh stance, it was like the KOTOR 2 of Star Trek, and was just as loved by the Trekkies as K2 was by SW fans.
This. I enjoyed TNG initially (and Worf and Data mainly) but DS9 for me was a breath of fresh air compared to TNG and Roddenberry's usual pontification, but that's just me.
 
I dont know you.

Winking at me.

Such familiarity.

Stranger danger.

Boba Fett is a macguffin in the Bounty Hunter Wars. Everybody wants him, to further their schemes, or to die to cover up their schemes, or to die because he's a big meanie who keeps embarrassing poor Bossk.

He's not the main character. That's why he is constantly surrounded with characters who are more interesting. Boba Fett as a bounty hunter is so kewl, Boba Fett as a person is boring.
So basically, Boba Fett in Bounty Hunter Wars was just a McGuffin for the other hunters? I see.

The most I've seen in a Boba Fett story is the TFU2 comic where he's just your standard "merc with some honor" cliche who's just following a bread crumb trail left by the Starkiller clone.

This. I enjoyed TNG initially (and Worf and Data most of all) but DS9 for me was a breath of fresh air compared to TNG and Roddenberry's usual pontification, but that's just me.
You're not alone. The pontificating in TNG and VOY turned me off Trek and made me wonder why people liked Trek to begin with. Then I saw more of the OG Trek and DS9 and understood why the fanbase for it was so zealous.
 
So basically, Boba Fett in Bounty Hunter Wars was just a McGuffin for the other hunters? I see.

The most I've seen in a Boba Fett story is the TFU2 comic where he's just your standard "merc with some honor" cliche who's just following a bread crumb trail left by the Starkiller clone.

He's a living god in the BHW pretty much. It's pretty humorous by the end how literally everyone recognizes how good he is but all his antagonists still think they can beat him somehow despite acknowledging he is ubermensch
 
TNG was 7 seasons of filler with a few good episodes sprinkled throughout.

Some amazing episodes, most of which exist in spite of Roddenberry. Oh, for those who haven't done their Doomcuck homework, I've heard him defend Roddenberry stealing City on the Edge of Forever from Harlan Ellison.

There are actually people who defend theft because muh Star Trek creator. To be fair, I've also heard Robert Meyer Burnett do the same.

He's a living god in the BHW pretty much. It's pretty humorous by the end how literally everyone recognizes how good he is but all his antagonists still think they can beat him somehow despite acknowledging he is ubermensch

I wouldn't say living god. He wins because he doesn't care about risking his life if he needs to do so to win. Bosk eventually beats him in the book by reaching that point and realizing Fett was never afraid of risking his life.
 
How the hell is it in conflict with G-canon? Even in G-canon we have Sith that are stronger than Sidious.
Which Sith, exactly?

On the OT front, Vader even says that destroying a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force, and all Vitiate, Nihilus, and Naga Sadow did was prove him right!
4wqx5o.jpg


Saying that Luke has to be the greatest SW hero IN ALL OF SW HISTORY is rather single-minded, isn't it?
Saying that characters from supplementary works should surpass the heroes of the primary text is rather arrogant and ungrateful. Basically, it's the worst kind of fan-fic mentality, in a nutshell.

Actually, Halsey was one of the few people who can be seen as human in the Spartan-II program. The rest of ONI didn't care, most of the people there didn't care, Halsey was one of the few to express sorrow and regret over all the suffering those kids went through, not to mention she tried to care for those who survived and saw them as her children.
Halsey was the reason those kids suffered and died in the first place. Trying to position her as some sort of moral figure is simply lunacy.

But it wasn't off the beaten path like Juhani was. Most KOTOR players didn't even know she was gay until after their second or third playthroughs.
Fair enough, I suppose, but then again, I've been a critic of that plot-point ever since LOTF was first hitting the shelves.

Yeah, and how is that compared to Klingon?
You're really going to try and make this a dick-measuring contest? 😆

And with TOR not being that well-loved among fans (something I know as a fan of TOR first-hand) and the fact that the Revan novel was HATED by its target audience, most SW fans have only heard Mando'a from the Republic Commando game.
I really doubt that the numbers would support that assertion.

...so when DS9 took a fresh stance, it was like the KOTOR 2 of Star Trek...
1d7b30.jpg
 
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I wouldn't say living god. He wins because he doesn't care about risking his life if he needs to do so to win. Bosk eventually beats him in the book by reaching that point and realizing Fett was never afraid of risking his life.

Maybe not to the reader but the other characters are constantly laving his balls. Nonstop. Even when they're about to try to kill him/in the act of trying to kill him.
 
He's a living god in the BHW pretty much. It's pretty humorous by the end how literally everyone recognizes how good he is but all his antagonists still think they can beat him somehow despite acknowledging he is ubermensch
So he's the Road Runner, and the other guys are Wile E. Coyote?

Which Sith, exactly?
Darth Plagueis. The one Sith whose feats Palpatine was trying to emulate in vain. The main reason why he even brought in Anakin as his apprentice in the first place, instead of letting him die with the rest of the Jedi.
"The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force."
-Darth Vader
You can't get more simple than that.
Saying that characters from supplementary works should surpass the heroes of the primary text is rather arrogant and ungrateful.
Not really. Especially when the original, primary texts talk about feats that nobody on-screen can replicate. Vader talks of how planet-busting is nothing compared to the Force, Palpatine talks about how the Force can create life. Both men are telling the truth, despite the fact that we don't see it onscreen. It was up to the supplementary materials to explain what the hell they were talking about.

Also, it's been done before by other franchises. The Silmarillion, which is supplemetary material for the Lord of the Rings trilogy, has characters far more powerful than Gandalf or Sauron, like Eru Illuvatar and Morgoth.
Halsey was the reason those kids suffered and died in the first place. Trying to position her as some sort of moral figure is simply lunacy.
No she wasn't. That was ONI, the organization that launched the Spartan program in order to quash human insurrectionists. Halsey was just some nerd whom they hired to help. If she wasn't involved, ONI would have hired someone else, and that someone else could end up being worse than Halsey.
Fair enough, I suppose, but then again, I've been a critic of that plot-point ever since LOTF was first hitting the shelves.
It was still more public than digging in KOTOR's side plots and finding out that the resident Jedi guardian in your party was gay
You're really going to try and make this a dick-measuring contest? 😆
It's not a dick-measuring contest when more people speak Klingon than Mando'a.
I really doubt that the numbers would support that assertion.
You really weren't there when TOR launched, were you? There's no shortage of KOTOR fans who said that both it and the Revan novel were bullshit. And KOTOR fans were the target audience for both TOR and the Revan novel. And as a fan of TOR, I came across so many people swearing up and down how they don't see TOR as canon.
Why not? Both were de-constructions of the franchise they were based on, and both KOTOR 2 and DS9 were loved by the fans. It is an appropriate comparison to make.
 
I wouldn't say living god. He wins because he doesn't care about risking his life if he needs to do so to win. Bosk eventually beats him in the book by reaching that point and realizing Fett was never afraid of risking his life.
Pretty much. Boba Fett in the Bounty Hunter Wars trilogy is an interesting character because he's basically a deconstruction of the idea of being the ultimate badass, because there's nothing in his life beyond maintaining that status. Bossk, Dengar, whatshername, they all have families and concerns beyond bounty hunting and bounty hunter in-fighting. Not Boba Fett. That's what makes him the best, but it also ultimately makes him a hollow man, more machine than human in many ways.
 
Pretty much. Boba Fett in the Bounty Hunter Wars trilogy is an interesting character because he's basically a deconstruction of the idea of being the ultimate badass, because there's nothing in his life beyond maintaining that status. Bossk, Dengar, whatshername, they all have families and concerns beyond bounty hunting and bounty hunter in-fighting. Not Boba Fett. That's what makes him the best, but it also ultimately makes him a hollow man, more machine than human in many ways.
Which is why having him as a main character for prolonged periods of time doesn't work. He can't evolve into a new character, nor can the audience stand a static character. He has to be relegated to the background or be made into a McGuffin for it to work.
 
Which is why having him as a main character for prolonged periods of time doesn't work. He can't evolve into a new character, nor can the audience stand a static character. He has to be relegated to the background or be made into a McGuffin for it to work.
Static characters are traditionally not the stuff of protagonists or major characters for a reason. Because growth and change is a big thing in story telling.
 
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