Tabletop Roleplaying Games (D&D, Pathfinder, CoC, ETC.)

[Waifuwars]

I love these people. It's like they never actually read the fucking books. To quote the LotR wiki, since I can't be assed digging for my books... [orcs] were generally squat, broad, flat-nosed, sallow-skinned, bow-legged, with wide mouths and slant eyes, long arms, dark skin, and fangs.

That's the spitting image of your average Tyrone from the 'hood, isn't it? Particularly the slant eyes and pale skin, Dead ringers for black people. Really, put them in hoodies and you couldn't fucking tell. Tolkien's Orcs are much closer to Mongol caricatures than they have ever been to black people. Even more so since the man was English. Yeah, he was born in current-year South Africa but his family left when he was 3. I doubt he even saw more than a handful of black people in his life. He may have met Indians and Pakistanese men in World War I. Maybe some French colonial troops. But that's about it. Everbody seems to think every old-time author was just fucking HP Lovecraft by any other name.

You want to see insulting black stereotypes? Go watch fucking Bright. Or don't. It's shit.

I've had the privilege of playing some game theory major's student's 5E homebrew with a couple of these people. Luckily nothing about orcs or elves came up during game time because the GM handed out premade characters and none of them were any of the former. It wasn't until we went for drinks afterword that one of them starts spewing some shit about how orcs are racist depictions of blacks and how elves are obviously based on racist Asian stereotypes. Of course this guy is also black and follows the same line of thought that somehow leads to "black people invented all music". It was pretty clear that he had little exposure to fantasy literature outside of the LotR movies. These kinds of people are indoctrinated into a cult-like type of thinking and it's impossible to do anything but tell them to GTFO out of your game. Luckily this phenomenon only seems to affect Western companies like WotC and Pozzo. The Japanese systems I play don't have any of this kind of bullshit because it has nothing to do with the actual game.

 

[Anonymus Fluhre]

Black people will always hate certain races because they blindly believe it's based on them while wanting other races to be there's. It's happened with fantasy literature and it's happened in History. No one knows about Nubians (I think it was them) which were black people who believe in the Egyptian mythos and shared their architecture, but people know of the tan to brown skinned Egyptian people so they want the Egyptians to be black.

 

[EnemyStand]

I've had the privilege of playing some game theory major's student's 5E homebrew with a couple of these people. Luckily nothing about orcs or elves came up during game time because the GM handed out premade characters and none of them were any of the former. It wasn't until we went for drinks afterword that one of them starts spewing some shit about how orcs are racist depictions of blacks and how elves are obviously based on racist Asian stereotypes. Of course this guy is also black and follows the same line of thought that somehow leads to "black people invented all music". It was pretty clear that he had little exposure to fantasy literature outside of the LotR movies. These kinds of people are indoctrinated into a cult-like type of thinking and it's impossible to do anything but tell them to GTFO out of your game. Luckily this phenomenon only seems to affect Western companies like WotC and Pozzo. The Japanese systems I play don't have any of this kind of bullshit because it has nothing to do with the actual game.

That's because the Jappos know that as long as they make it fun people will buy it. Japanese culture is incredibly pragmatic.

 

[SheerHeartAttack]

I've had the privilege of playing some game theory major's student's 5E homebrew with a couple of these people. Luckily nothing about orcs or elves came up during game time because the GM handed out premade characters and none of them were any of the former. It wasn't until we went for drinks afterword that one of them starts spewing some shit about how orcs are racist depictions of blacks and how elves are obviously based on racist Asian stereotypes. Of course this guy is also black and follows the same line of thought that somehow leads to "black people invented all music". It was pretty clear that he had little exposure to fantasy literature outside of the LotR movies. These kinds of people are indoctrinated into a cult-like type of thinking and it's impossible to do anything but tell them to GTFO out of your game. Luckily this phenomenon only seems to affect Western companies like WotC and Pozzo. The Japanese systems I play don't have any of this kind of bullshit because it has nothing to do with the actual game.

Yeah half the time they are so reasonable until you hit some trigger and they sperg about the Hitlernazis and their *checks notes* fantasy races in imaginary elf games.

 

[Anonymus Fluhre]

That's because the Jappos know that as long as they make it fun people will buy it. Japanese culture is incredibly pragmatic.

Hence why a lot of their games aren't balanced or just broken.

 

[Snekposter]

It was the only way to use a katana with Dexterity, if I recall, which some people were obsessed with around that time.

That's because actual historical samurai have always been about Dex and quick movements. It goes with their armor designs which are extremely light as far as armor goes. Plate was unheard of in the East, with the heaviest armor until the arrival of the Europeans being splint-reinforced mail. Due to their terrible metalworking, actual steel armor was unheard of, with iron being the primary metallic component with all of the weight penalties inherent to that, limiting its use.

I mean, that's shit from the 1600's. Look at the tiny chain links and how thin they are. They were also butted and not riveted or welded, so overall strength would be terrible. Wearing that to a European battlefield 200 years earlier would practically get you laughed off of it by your own side.

 

[Anonymus Fluhre]

Sucks that China only recently (well recently as early 2000's) got tabletop RPG's. I think they would make some fun ones. They have some interesting card games I'd love to try out like Sanguosha if I can get a translation of it.

If people think orcs are black people now, just wait until China starts making RPGs.

 

[Fictional Character]

That's because the Jappos know that as long as they make it fun people will buy it. Japanese culture is incredibly pragmatic.

What Japanese TTRPGs even have orcs and elves? The Record of Lodoss War TTRPG is the only one I can think of. From what I know, when the Japanese want to play a game with orcs and elves, they play DnD just like most others.

Hence why a lot of their games aren't balanced or just broken.

The only really broken part of Japanese TTRPGs ends up being the character progression system and that's just a symptom of the way tabletop gaming works in Japan. The systems are balanced for oneshots, since that's how majority of games happens. Wrangling people's work schedules to make room for a regular weekly or biweekly game is just something only a handful of groups do.

From what I played during the time I spent in Japan, most games take place during small local cons. And I mean really small, think renting one room in a community center for the Saturday afternoon with roughly 20-30 people attending. Everyone plays a one shot and then go drinking nearby and talk about games. It's fun, but does not lend itself to long campaigns, since even if exactly the same people attend the next event, they'll be in different group and want to play different games.

 

[Anonymus Fluhre]

What Japanese TTRPGs even have orcs and elves? The Record of Lodoss War TTRPG is the only one I can think of. From what I know, when the Japanese want to play a game with orcs and elves, they play DnD just like most others.



The only really broken part of Japanese TTRPGs ends up being the character progression system and that's just a symptom of the way tabletop gaming works in Japan. The systems are balanced for oneshots, since that's how majority of games happens. Wrangling people's work schedules to make room for a regular weekly or biweekly game is just something only a handful of groups do.

From what I played during the time I spent in Japan, most games take place during small local cons. And I mean really small, think renting one room in a community center for the Saturday afternoon with roughly 20-30 people attending. Everyone plays a one shot and then go drinking nearby and talk about games. It's fun, but does not lend itself to long campaigns, since even if exactly the same people attend the next event, they'll be in different group and want to play different games.

Any of their games are broken. Doesn't matter if it's a video game, a CCG, or a tabletop RPG. I rarely see anything with polish.

 

[EnemyStand]

What Japanese TTRPGs even have orcs and elves? The Record of Lodoss War TTRPG is the only one I can think of. From what I know, when the Japanese want to play a game with orcs and elves, they play DnD just like most others.

I thought the post was referring to the whole racial analogue thing. In retrospect I may have been mistaken.

 

[Seven Devil Wolf]

That's because actual historical samurai have always been about Dex and quick movements. It goes with their armor designs which are extremely light as far as armor goes. Plate was unheard of in the East, with the heaviest armor until the arrival of the Europeans being splint-reinforced mail. Due to their terrible metalworking, actual steel armor was unheard of, with iron being the primary metallic component with all of the weight penalties inherent to that, limiting its use.

View attachment 1926238
I mean, that's shit from the 1600's. Look at the tiny chain links and how thin they are. They were also butted and not riveted or welded, so overall strength would be terrible. Wearing that to a European battlefield 200 years earlier would practically get you laughed off of it by your own side.

I'm not sure if this is a troll or not, 'cause this isn't 2005 and people aren't debating katanas cutting tanks in 3.5 anymore. =P I was commenting on the use of Kakita Duelist, which was used throughout a lot of CharOps builds because it was the only way to use a katana with Dexterity (katanas are masterwork bastard swords in OA 3.0 and 3.x in general). This, combined with the skill it introduced, Iaijutsu Focus, let you do some dumb stuff like completely dropping Strength, maxing out on Dex for your to-hit and Reflex, and using your Wis (or Charisma? I forget) stat for damage via Iaijutsu Focus shenanigins.

Tl;dr: I never saw anyone use OA 3.0, outside of people using Samurai because it pretty much did Fighter but better, and it had a PrC which let you do dumb attribute switching combos via OP skills.

 

[Anonymus Fluhre]

I'm not sure if this is a troll or not, 'cause this isn't 2005 and people aren't debating katanas cutting tanks in 3.5 anymore. =P I was commenting on the use of Kakita Duelist, which was used throughout a lot of CharOps builds because it was the only way to use a katana with Dexterity (katanas are masterwork bastard swords in OA 3.0 and 3.x in general). This, combined with the skill it introduced, Iaijutsu Focus, let you do some dumb stuff like completely dropping Strength, maxing out on Dex for your to-hit and Reflex, and using your Wis (or Charisma? I forget) stat for damage via Iaijutsu Focus shenanigins.

Tl;dr: I never saw anyone use OA 3.0, outside of people using Samurai because it pretty much did Fighter but better, and it had a PrC which let you do dumb attribute switching combos via OP skills.

Iajuitsu proficiency was a thing in the AD&D 1st Edition Oriental Adventures, but I don't it worked very well. While most classes were pretty good in that edition, I wasn't quite a fan of the Samurai in it. I feel like Paladin would be a better choice, unless of course you liked all of the titles and responsibilities Samurais got as they leveled up. Forced proficiencies you had to take by a certain level were a pain too. It's one of the classes later editions did better.

 

[Snekposter]

I'm not sure if this is a troll or not, 'cause this isn't 2005 and people aren't debating katanas cutting tanks in 3.5 anymore. =P I was commenting on the use of Kakita Duelist, which was used throughout a lot of CharOps builds because it was the only way to use a katana with Dexterity (katanas are masterwork bastard swords in OA 3.0 and 3.x in general). This, combined with the skill it introduced, Iaijutsu Focus, let you do some dumb stuff like completely dropping Strength, maxing out on Dex for your to-hit and Reflex, and using your Wis (or Charisma? I forget) stat for damage via Iaijutsu Focus shenanigins.

Tl;dr: I never saw anyone use OA 3.0, outside of people using Samurai because it pretty much did Fighter but better, and it had a PrC which let you do dumb attribute switching combos via OP skills.

I was absolutely not making any reference at all to "Japanese steereh fordred one mirrion times!" by that post, merely making mention of actual Japanese combat techniques being focused on nimbleness and not strength. I wasn't doing tabletop gaming in 2005, so I thankfully missed all of that katana-related bullshit.

And I'm sure I've ranted about how much more useful Dex is to fighters in general than Strength, so its an easy way to min-max for both damage output and survivability. I shamelessly did exactly what you described with dropping strength to go max dex in a 5e game where the GM set his fantasy Japan at the end of the Warring States Period, so I got to use a gun along with the hilarity of a Finesse greatsword called a nodachi. (What's that, wear armor? Don't be ridiculous, dexterity lets me dodge bullets!) Of course the Monks got to use halberds naginata as monk weapons by default, so it wasn't that OP in game context. Only somewhat OP.

 

[Adamska]

Well yeah, in 5e you could apply DEX to damage. 3.5 don't do that, and Weapon Finesse is pretty limited in giving you the ability to use weapons, since they need to be treated as light.

It's situational in that edition, since TBH it was my solution to making sure the one time I played a monk worked out okay (since Eildrun was a hideously speedy boi), but he never could hit hard; more often than a monk peer, but not as hard as a STR build like the super stronk Barb that was in our party.

 

[Corn Flakes]

Has anyone ever managed to balance Str and Dex in 5e? I don't think there's any reason to build a Str fighter besides flavor. With a full 20 Dex build and studded leather armor you may lose 1 or 2 AC compared to a full plate, but the benefits way more than compensate for it.

 

[Seven Devil Wolf]

Iajuitsu proficiency was a thing in the AD&D 1st Edition Oriental Adventures, but I don't it worked very well. While most classes were pretty good in that edition, I wasn't quite a fan of the Samurai in it. I feel like Paladin would be a better choice, unless of course you liked all of the titles and responsibilities Samurais got as they leveled up. Forced proficiencies you had to take by a certain level were a pain too. It's one of the classes later editions did better.

In 3.0, it was amazing. On it's own, it's not fantastic - Iaijutsu Focus was a separate skill which any class could take. Normally, it's used in dueling, which is a huge part of L5R. The main reason Kakita Duelist was a big focus was because in 3.0, there's not many ways to get damage outside of high Strength, two-handing and Power Attack shenannigins.

Kakita Duelist was the Crane Clan PrC, which in L5R, are basically the Anime Samurai. They're pretty, they focus on katanas and they loooove dueling. They focus on being fast. But in every edition of L5R I'm familiar with, they get the ability to use dueling rules -in the middle of a combat-, as otherwise, they'd be useless.

So, Kakita Duelist did a similar thing. It allowed you to use Weapon Finesse with katanas (which normally isn't possible), so you could drop Strength. It also allowed you to use Iaijutsu Focus in combat for massive damage, but additionally, as it's a skill and not an attribute, it could be increased every level (and Samurai, like Fighters, don't really have much in terms of skills to really bother with. So it was essentially a free damage boost every level, which could be further buffed with Skill Focus, etc.)

I was absolutely not making any reference at all to "Japanese steereh fordred one mirrion times!" by that post, merely making mention of actual Japanese combat techniques being focused on nimbleness and not strength. I wasn't doing tabletop gaming in 2005, so I thankfully missed all of that katana-related bullshit.

And I'm sure I've ranted about how much more useful Dex is to fighters in general than Strength, so its an easy way to min-max for both damage output and survivability. I shamelessly did exactly what you described with dropping strength to go max dex in a 5e game where the GM set his fantasy Japan at the end of the Warring States Period, so I got to use a gun along with the hilarity of a Finesse greatsword called a nodachi. (What's that, wear armor? Don't be ridiculous, dexterity lets me dodge bullets!) Of course the Monks got to use halberds naginata as monk weapons by default, so it wasn't that OP in game context. Only somewhat OP.

That's 5e, not 3.x, which is what I'm talking about. In 3.5, Weapon Finesse was essentially the Finesse tag, but it didn't apply Dex to damage - the main reason for it was for classes like Rogue, who didn't really use Strength for damage, and relied solely on Sneak Attack dice. But yeah, if you're going to throw 'Finesse greatswords' into your game, where the only upside to Strength is getting access to the best melee weapons in the game, yeah. You're gonna get -every- character using Dex and studded leather. =P

Has anyone ever managed to balance Str and Dex in 5e? I don't think there's any reason to build a Str fighter besides flavor. With a full 20 Dex build and studded leather armor you may lose 1 or 2 AC compared to a full plate, but the benefits way more than compensate for it.

I don't really play 5e, but every game I've seen or played in, everyone builds Dex rapier users, because there's no reason not to. Very specific characters can get away with high Strength builds (Fighter with Great Weapon Mastery). Dexterity/Agility/etc. has always had an issue in a lot of games as a godstat.

 

[Techpriest]

Kakita duelists always take the spotlight away from the Daidoji family of the Crane Clan - who despite being more often than not bishi pretty boys like most cranes, actually have balls. Kakita are more the courtly assassins and moonlight as effective bodyguards for courtiers who want to play politics. Daidoji are heavy infantrymen and bodyguards on the highest level, and aren't afraid to get dirty with their tactics or methods if it means the clan comes out winning. There's a(n) (in)famous Kakita swordsmaster who was considered too clumsy for a crane duelist so he got shuffled off to the Daidoji infantry school (because to be fair the Kakita dojo is notoriously strict and disciplined and picks only the best of the best), graduated at the middle of his class, then proceeded to win every single duel he ever fought, never had a charge of his die from an assassination or attack, and still a damn good soldier on top of that. The Kakita dojo's top swordmasters (weeb name means sword saints I think) accepted him into their ranks out of embarrassment pretty much for completely misjudging his capabilities. He's a point of pride of the Daidoji school.

In L5R, Kakita dojo students are really damn good in duels, starting out. They're going to be better at it than almost anyone but sometimes the Dragon's Mirumoto swordsmen, and those guys are the Musashi style twin sword wielding assholes who outperform Kakita in open combat most of the time. Kakita excel at the first strike, and in L5R the first stike in a duel is often lethal, if you choose it to be. But if the enemy survives that first strike, or strikes at the same time as you do, Kakita go down easier than almost any other bushi. They're still no slouch in an open field at higher levels, but if they're in a one on one situation most other bushi classes will probably have more tricks to bring into play.

 

[40 Year Old Boomer]

Has anyone ever managed to balance Str and Dex in 5e? I don't think there's any reason to build a Str fighter besides flavor. With a full 20 Dex build and studded leather armor you may lose 1 or 2 AC compared to a full plate, but the benefits way more than compensate for it.

Honestly, I find Str fighters way more fun to play than Dex fighters. Great Weapon Mastery/Fighting Style, athletic checks to shove/grapple/drag foes, kicking down doors, climbing/jumping/swimming, etc. Meanwhile, Dex fighter in combat is mainly just crossbow expert memelords.

 

[Corn Flakes]

Honestly, I find Str fighters way more fun to play than Dex fighters. Great Weapon Mastery/Fighting Style, athletic checks to shove/grapple/drag foes, kicking down doors, climbing/jumping/swimming, etc. Meanwhile, Dex fighter in combat is mainly just crossbow expert memelords.

Oh, I agree. I'd much rather play a walking bank vault with a greataxe. But when you're playing an one-shot or working with a GM who's more into damage race-type encounters, it's hard to ignore how much damage and survivability you're leaving on the table if you don't go crossbow/rapier. And besides, wouldn't these Str fighters be even more fun if they were more balanced versus the Dex ones?

 

[MightyBiteySnake]

I think a lot of the problem in 5e with dex vs strength comes to a matter of power gamers only caring about how much damage they're rolling and inexperienced dms not providing incentives for a well balanced party to participate. Fwiw I think wizards had some amount of faith that players would choose roleplaying options over "meta strategies".

Honestly, I find Str fighters way more fun to play than Dex fighters. Great Weapon Mastery/Fighting Style, athletic checks to shove/grapple/drag foes, kicking down doors, climbing/jumping/swimming, etc. Meanwhile, Dex fighter in combat is mainly just crossbow expert memelords.

This. 5e has a ton of room for creativity and fun builds, not necessarily the sheer variety and power that 3.5 and pathfinder have, but a rather comfortable amount of builds nonetheless. For example, the aforementioned cross bow expert build can get really kooky if you run a samurai, you can become Heavy Crossbow Guy and shoot like 8 times a round.