Diseased #Comicsgate - The Culture Wars Hit The Funny Books!

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International customers looking to save on exorbitant shipping costs? People who are out of overprint but don't want to run a second chance campaign? It made sense to me, but I figured there was any number of things I hadn't thought of. Ah well.

We're loving eBay, because they actually charge international customers shipping and tax for us. We don't have to figure it out and possibly get it wrong. We just ship to eBay's depot hub, and they take it from there. So much easier.

I'd run an IndieGoGo if I had to go back to print on something, but this looks like these are remainders our boys are selling. I dunno.
 
$25 seems like a fair price for a premium product, but most of the people charging $25 are amateurs who are (ideally) learning to produce the bare minimum as they go. @FROG wrote a few pages back that him setting Bloodhoney at $25 was something set by him because that's what he felt a 96 page chrome-covered production with whatever else he could add should cost. It never really occurred to him that other people would just blindly follow the example for other projects.

This problem is compounded by the $10 shipping fee per unit; a shipment fee that costs more than most comics at retail is a strong disincentive for customers to support amateur and developing indie creators. Some of the larger CGers like Cecil and TUG are able to get around this by leveraging their comics as an extension of their personal brand. Either you're making something that's worth $10 to ship or justifying your prices within the current crowdfund business model becomes increasingly difficult.

One of the more interesting ideas I've seen around this was in Zack's 499 campaign with tiers offering product from multiple creators.

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While upcharging an additional 10 dollars on a bulk sale to charge a $25 premium for 22 pages of this level of work is truly a "Zack move" if there ever was one, the idea of bundling multiple franchises or creators' projects is a great idea of reducing shipment costs on the consumer.

The reasons why this hasn't been done in the past is obvious: you'd have to a fucking idiot to enter into an arrangement where fulfilling one's crowdfund campaign hinges on somebody like Donal independently carrying out their end of the bargain in a timely manner. But with an increasing body of completed work by smaller creators being built up, along with thee actual fulfillment end increasingly being outsourced to CG-friendly fulfilllment services (Jon Malin's being one) and publishers, it should be possible for creators to form blocs, agree on a mutual fulfillment service and send out several different comics sent from one location in one order, the saving $10 on each bundled comic.
Imagine paying for a fucking comic

Just torrent the scans
 
From another angle: if you're a fan of Cyberfrog, does that hinge on believing he isn't a terrible person: that you don't believe he's a leader of all or part of the CG shenanigans behind the scenes?
This is probably responding to your original question more than this specific one, so forgive me. My take is that CyberFrog is mostly spectacle. Ethan is the most successful person in his field by orders of magnitude and that is interesting to see. It's fun to watch him create toys, blacklight posters, hoodies, etc. and to see what crazy shit comes next. Now, that being said, I think the whole thing does actually hinge on the product being good. Blood Honey and 1998 were good reads. Not groundbreaking, but they have enough to keep people wanting more. CyberFrog is, by Ethan's admission, basically just a solo Ninja Turtle, but that keeps him far enough away from being just another generic superhero to maintain interest. I think CyberFrog is just the right property to make all of this work. Iconic and recognizable character design, simple plot and themes, and just enough mystery and promise of future revelations to keep people coming back. This wouldn't work with a property like, let's say Graveyard Shift, because Graveyard Shift doesn't really have these elements and honestly isn't very good, despite the relative hype behind it and being one of CG's biggest books.

But back to the spectacle. This also applies to the story and the characters themselves. Ethan has a pretty cool rogues' gallery from the 1990s books and people want to see those characters brought into the new story. Ethan plays up these characters we know nothing about and shows off a cool design, like Rumblebee, and people speculate wildly as to how he'll play into the story, fueled by the "Boba Fett" comparison and the likelihood of him teaming up with CF to take on the Vyzpzz (and people love a rivalry that becomes a tenuous partnership, ala something like Goku and Vegeta). That's part of the draw and part of the fun for the customer. And Ethan knows exactly what he's doing. Salamandroid is a fan favorite and Ethan strings us along with "what happened to Sal???" for a couple of years, for example.

Of course, Ethan's persona is integral to all of this. He's a talented showman and he knows how to entertain a large audience. He has something that I would call "calculated humility." He allows himself to be made fun of and doesn't (usually) take insults too personally, at least on the outside. I rarely see him get visibly offended or upset, barring the obvious examples like last year's split with WC and some of the shit that followed. Allowing yourself to be beaten up a bit is endearing to the audience. Last week he was on Cecil's channel and showed a bunch of old videos of him playing piano and singing, all under the guise of "oh no this is so embarrassing that someone found these." Don't know if that was legit or not; @FROG can confirm or deny. Regardless, those kinds of things make you seem more human and relatable, and Ethan knows that.

If you don't believe Ethan was part of it, could you foresee anything Ethan might do to sour you on Cyberfrog? What if he openly admitted to gayops sometime in the future?
Would depend on the gayop. I think lots of people were involved in that kind of shit in the earlier days of CG. However, I think Ethan is probably one of the people who realized how fucking gay that whole charade is and distanced himself from it. CG isn't the small circle that it was in the beginning and I honestly do think there is too much going on at this point for Ethan to be aware of it all. Plus, his business has obviously expanded tremendously and continues to do so, which leaves him less time for internet bullshit. I think some of the stuff that went down in early CG was definitely shady. I also think Ethan has probably unfairly ousted some creators with the help of WC gayops. Regardless, I think much of Ethan's following at this point will be pretty unwavering. Speaking for myself, I contend that no one is above reproach and there have been times where I've stopped following Ethan for certain periods. But I like his products and I feel that I understand who he is well enough to not have any false pretenses about him. I don't hold him to the standard of being a "human sunbeam" who will lift everyone from the darkness of the mainstream. But what he has built is interesting to watch for many reasons.
 
This is probably responding to your original question more than this specific one, so forgive me. My take is that CyberFrog is mostly spectacle. Ethan is the most successful person in his field by orders of magnitude and that is interesting to see. It's fun to watch him create toys, blacklight posters, hoodies, etc. and to see what crazy shit comes next. Now, that being said, I think the whole thing does actually hinge on the product being good. Blood Honey and 1998 were good reads. Not groundbreaking, but they have enough to keep people wanting more. CyberFrog is, by Ethan's admission, basically just a solo Ninja Turtle, but that keeps him far enough away from being just another generic superhero to maintain interest. I think CyberFrog is just the right property to make all of this work. Iconic and recognizable character design, simple plot and themes, and just enough mystery and promise of future revelations to keep people coming back. This wouldn't work with a property like, let's say Graveyard Shift, because Graveyard Shift doesn't really have these elements and honestly isn't very good, despite the relative hype behind it and being one of CG's biggest books.

But back to the spectacle. This also applies to the story and the characters themselves. Ethan has a pretty cool rogues' gallery from the 1990s books and people want to see those characters brought into the new story. Ethan plays up these characters we know nothing about and shows off a cool design, like Rumblebee, and people speculate wildly as to how he'll play into the story, fueled by the "Boba Fett" comparison and the likelihood of him teaming up with CF to take on the Vyzpzz (and people love a rivalry that becomes a tenuous partnership, ala something like Goku and Vegeta). That's part of the draw and part of the fun for the customer. And Ethan knows exactly what he's doing. Salamandroid is a fan favorite and Ethan strings us along with "what happened to Sal???" for a couple of years, for example.

Of course, Ethan's persona is integral to all of this. He's a talented showman and he knows how to entertain a large audience. He has something that I would call "calculated humility." He allows himself to be made fun of and doesn't (usually) take insults too personally, at least on the outside. I rarely see him get visibly offended or upset, barring the obvious examples like last year's split with WC and some of the shit that followed. Allowing yourself to be beaten up a bit is endearing to the audience. Last week he was on Cecil's channel and showed a bunch of old videos of him playing piano and singing, all under the guise of "oh no this is so embarrassing that someone found these." Don't know if that was legit or not; @FROG can confirm or deny. Regardless, those kinds of things make you seem more human and relatable, and Ethan knows that.


Would depend on the gayop. I think lots of people were involved in that kind of shit in the earlier days of CG. However, I think Ethan is probably one of the people who realized how fucking gay that whole charade is and distanced himself from it. CG isn't the small circle that it was in the beginning and I honestly do think there is too much going on at this point for Ethan to be aware of it all. Plus, his business has obviously expanded tremendously and continues to do so, which leaves him less time for internet bullshit. I think some of the stuff that went down in early CG was definitely shady. I also think Ethan has probably unfairly ousted some creators with the help of WC gayops. Regardless, I think much of Ethan's following at this point will be pretty unwavering. Speaking for myself, I contend that no one is above reproach and there have been times where I've stopped following Ethan for certain periods. But I like his products and I feel that I understand who he is well enough to not have any false pretenses about him. I don't hold him to the standard of being a "human sunbeam" who will lift everyone from the darkness of the mainstream. But what he has built is interesting to watch for many reasons.

Wow, that was a great in-depth response thank you! It should also be said that there is an aspect of comic book history whenever speaking about Ethan, so if not for any other reason but for the comic book historian angle, you could be on board as well. Love him or hate him, he will always factor in. I just want to make it clear I'm not out to cancel him or keep anyone else from buying his books. But I will call him out on his garbage until he takes out the trash.
 
This site is full of angry retards, but you're a new breed.

Let me explain something. I don't give a fuck about Dave Sim. I'm not a fan. I didn't read Cerebus. I have almost zero respect for anyone who worked for decades on his own IP and still needs my help to pay his bills. And since you brought up skimming grifters, is Dave Sim a fan of mine? For what other reason would your hero be contacting a nobody Gen Xer like me, if not to work a grift of his own?

Tell him to go chase a wealthy Disney tween.
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In that three month gap, you're saying sim demanded a million dollars and that's why you decided to end the collaboration or because he wants to fuck a Disney tween? When was the exorbitant price for his services discussed?

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These fans of yours seemed to be okay with it but after renfamous made a little post about it your tuned changed.

Edit: i think it's really annoying to have to supply "evidence" for every conversation.Screenshot_20210227-134249_Brave.jpgScreenshot_20210227-134635_Brave.jpgScreenshot_20210227-134348_Brave.jpg
 
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In that three month gap, you're saying sim demanded a million dollars and that's why you decided to end the collaboration or because he wants to fuck a Disney tween? When was the exorbitant price for his services discussed?

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These fans of yours seemed to be okay with it but after renfamous made a little post about it your tuned changed.

Edit: i think it's really annoying to have to supply "evidence" for every conversation.
Yeah, I thought Sim was cancelled for his Feminine Void essays, which I thought were pretty entertaining. I read those. I was completely unaware of the underage girl stuff. That’s...that’s not a matter of personal politics. That’s just not something I’m going to fight for. Shout out to Renfamous for the heads up.
 
The truth of the Dave Sim situation is that he contacted me thru someone else, wanting to get involved in ComicsGate. I assumed he wanted to launch a project and make some money. That's not what he wanted.

He wanted:
1. For me to promote digital Cerebus Omnibuses on my YouTube channel.
2. To not create anything new
3. To plot or help me plot CYBERFROG for a 5 figure fee
4. To avoid the internet
5. To do all of this through a complicated and inconvenient network of technology from the 1980's, including fax machines and landlines and messages from his fans.

Fuck all that. I liked the idea of learning to write from Dave Sim, but he wanted a shit ton of money, he wanted to steer the direction of my comic book, and contacting him was a nightmare.
Plus, his gay fanclub started harassing me, like this shithead is doing.

I was thrilled to walk away. Any excuse would do.
Okay so this list you provided had nothing to do with it. It's just a moral issue.

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And you probably just didn't see any of this in your YouTube chat. It took someone making a blog post about it. Cool and believable.

Edit: my point is that you're lying. You lied about considering sim "god-tier" you lied about the reason you stopped the collab is for "morals". You only care about money and if renfamous hadn't whipped up a mob you'd of probably made the comic with sim because you're a whore.

If the pendulum was swinging the other way and being a stark liberal was counter-culture that's what you'd be. Wherever the money goes, you go.
 
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$25 seems like a fair price for a premium product, but most of the people charging $25 are amateurs who are (ideally) learning to produce the bare minimum as they go. @FROG wrote a few pages back that him setting Bloodhoney at $25 was something set by him because that's what he felt a 96 page chrome-covered production with whatever else he could add should cost. It never really occurred to him that other people would just blindly follow the example for other projects.
Ah, I should've read back further before posting my question about pricing opinions. Apologies. But yeah, I do agree with what you, Ethan, and others have said about all of it. $25 for a lot of these books is absurd, but people seem to just blindly assign it to their books because that's the "CG price" or something. It's definitely too much for anything shorter than 60 pages by nearly anyone, in my opinion. Exceptions being books like Rekt Planet that are coming with a metric ton of extras for every backer, but Ethan is one of the very few people that can even afford those sorts of add-ons. The shipping prices are also too high in most cases. Many creators have noted prices for shipping materials being somewhere in the $3-4 range per book at most. So am I paying you $6 labor for packing and mailing a single book? Or is this just a way to sneak in some extra profit on an already overpriced book?

Then there's the reasoning that Malin gives where US backers pay more than is necessary so overseas backers can pay less. I'll admit I was shocked the first time I heard him say this, as it's an outright admission that he's basically having me pay for someone else's book to be shipped to them. But I do understand that overseas shipping prices are outrageous and hopefully that can be rectified in the future with CG setting up deals with printing/fulfillment services in EU, AU, and elsewhere. Even if it's another CG creator like Malin setting up their own fulfillment company.

Anyways, I do hope that standard pricing for books and shipping comes down as CG continues to grow. I don't think that charging $25 per book is going to be sustainable for most creators and a lot of them need to be hit with some harsh reality and self-awareness about the value of their product. You can already see diminishing returns for people like Mandy Summers and Adam "Margin Manhunter" Post who put out sub-par work and are losing customers. You could attribute Adam's loss to the genre change from zombies to gay mermaids, but College of the Dead is so, so bad. I genuinely don't believe people who speak highly of those books. I think Adam is a decent guy and harbor no ill will towards him. I just can't support his campaigns until he at least gets a new writer. It's also suspicious that someone who has been in comics for decades didn't see anything wrong with the formatting of his books and he has to get the most obvious advice from Ethan and Billy Tucci on how a comic book page should look.
 
Kamen America could probably get away with charging even more. It's $10 for the softcover and it's actually a good book and it's 64 pages. I've paid a lot more for a lot worse books in crowdfunding. But I love the low price point.
It's $10 for the Antarctic Press version. Which is kinda like a standard comic book. If you want the much better Iconic Comics version(s) they are between $15-25. You get a $5 off coupon code for your next order, and a cool patch.

I dunno if I'm even gonna bother getting the AP version. I am not sure what to think about the Dunns. There were some things in Dunn's Meyer deposition that I'm not fully convinced was truthful.
 
It's $10 for the Antarctic Press version. Which is kinda like a standard comic book. If you want the much better Iconic Comics version(s) they are between $15-25. You get a $5 off coupon code for your next order, and a cool patch.
I was going off of the Kickstarter for Volume 3, which was $10 with $5 shipping. I also backed their IGG for issues 1-2 combined, which totaled $20 and $7 shipping. That also came with the patch and a really nice shipping box with some KA art on it. And the books themselves are extremely well produced. So I think they've really got their pricing figured out in a way that CG creators should be taking note of. But if they priced their books like the average CG creator (and if we assume the same backer count), they'd be over $115k on their campaign for Volume 3. Not saying they should do this, as I am a fan of the low price, but if we're to compare KA with your average CG campaign, I'd make that adjustment.
 
So much interweeb tism
JRJR and Bags draw fast but Bolland and Sciver can both hit their deadlines if they put in the work.


Nasser is right here. If you're getting payed and you have a deadline you said you will make and you don't make it there are few acceptable excuses.

Van Sciver and Bolland can both hit their deadlines when they sit down and do the work. When they miss their deadlines it's because they didn't sit down and do the work. Period.

"I work slow" is an excuse for not meeting ones commitments. It is not a reason.

Except it is when the level of work you produce with the detail is the exact reason you were hired. Said detail takes time to produce. Bolland never figured out how to hit the monthly deadlines. It took Ethan twenty years to nail it.

Then he was cancelled for being a prick online and being a conservative.

Sciver was aware of his past and was going to work with him anyway. He only stopped because of retarded people on social media like you.

If you can't separate the art from the artist then I don't know what to tell you except enjoy whatever Netflix provides for you, you low iq consumer.

Also they didn't have sex until she was like twenty four. You're being disingenuous or you didn't read the entire paper you linked.

This is true. Dave Sim committed no crime. He also is an elderly boomer who was more trouble than he was worth.

Here's the tricky part about Dave Sim: he's admitted to grooming her and he says he's been celibate since the 90s, but in trying to explain why little girls are cuter than grown women, he firmly solidified his creep factor. It would be one thing if she looked or acted much older to throw him off, it still would have been bad optics but he goes through the trouble to explain he was charmed because she was so tiny. He should have just left it at "Wrong." It was that extra bit that doomed him at least in my eyes.

Ethan's done more to damage Edwin's rep and Edwin did far less to merit it than Dave Sim. Same goes for Mike S. Miller. Whether you like these guys or not, Ethan and his WarCramps really ran a runaway train on them.

WC did. I go back and forth just how much Ethan knows/is willing to take responsibility for. He more or less egged them on, and some of the stuff they did was truly horrendous. It's all old news. But still.
This site is full of angry retards, but you're a new breed.

You and your orbitors are the literal definition of tard anger.

Yeah, I thought Sim was cancelled for his Feminine Void essays.
He was.
I was completely unaware of the underage girl stuff. That’s...that’s not a matter of personal politics. That’s just not something I’m going to fight for. Shout out to Renfamous for the heads up.

Except he didn't sleep with underage girls.

I dunno if I'm even gonna bother getting the AP version. I am not sure what to think about the Dunns. There were some things in Dunn's Meyer deposition that I'm not fully convinced was truthful.

I'm sure. The Dunn's are opportunists who saw that comics had the modern equivalent of the 90s news. There were only left and center left network.

Tim Lim is the Roger Ailes to the Dunns' Murdoch.
 
Looking at all the insane shit that's gone on in the industry, and as somebody who is eventually wanting to write and draw comic books (if only I could be more confident in my abilities and less nervous about how people will look at my work), I'd be ashamed to be acting like this and showing my ass to the public. Someone who is truly passionate about the medium wouldn't be starting petty fights with potential fans and customers. They wouldn't be treating fans like shit because they think that they have a God-given right to act like the biggest hemorrhoid riddled asshole to anyone who doesn't like their series. They would actually try to craft something truly great and study an existing character well to give fans something they'll enjoy rather than force something politically charged down everyone's throats and calling them bigots if they so much as even lightly suggest their comic isn't a spectacular commentary on whatever stupid shit they wanna sperg about.

I miss the days when people would just read or write comics and enjoy them and not bitch about how Superman isn't gay or how Power Girl's tits are too big or whatever nitpick they choose to manufacture... *sigh*
 
@FROG /Sciver is a pussy that canceled his collaboration with Dave Sim because of ridiculous social pressure. He's no better than the "sjw" types yells about.

He'll capitulate to whatever social pressure because he's a money whore.
I can't believe I'm doing this, but I'm going to defend @FROG here.


It was Edwin who blew up/exaggerated the whole Dave Sim story and IIRC completely stitched him-up, with nothing but old blog posts and an interview (I damn sure there were no MeToo allegations), which, when the truth finally came out, turned out to be nothing more than he had had sex with a lass when she was 21 who he first met at convention when she was 14, and he said child-like features on women made them more beautiful to draw.


I always wondered if it was DS weird pseudo-Gnostic Islam/Christian fusion beliefs that got EB worried about Comicsgate losing it's Christian orthodoxy.

Of course DS being the mad genius he is, by the time it was cleared-up there was no chance for forgiveness.


It's such a shame because an EVS/Sim collaboration would have been wonderful.

EDIT: Because a whole paragraph from my last post somehow appeared at the bottom.

ANOTHER EDIT: This all based on a conversation with a WC higher-up I had about a year ago. They told me that EB had a lot of pull with WC back them, before the whole 'scheme and scams' thing, and he was the driving force behind WC going after DS with a vengence.
 
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Looking at all the insane shit that's gone on in the industry, and as somebody who is eventually wanting to write and draw comic books (if only I could be more confident in my abilities and less nervous about how people will look at my work), I'd be ashamed to be acting like this and showing my ass to the public. Someone who is truly passionate about the medium wouldn't be starting petty fights with potential fans and customers. They wouldn't be treating fans like shit because they think that they have a God-given right to act like the biggest hemorrhoid riddled asshole to anyone who doesn't like their series. They would actually try to craft something truly great and study an existing character well to give fans something they'll enjoy rather than force something politically charged down everyone's throats and calling them bigots if they so much as even lightly suggest their comic isn't a spectacular commentary on whatever stupid shit they wanna sperg about.

I miss the days when people would just read or write comics and enjoy them and not bitch about how Superman isn't gay or how Power Girl's tits are too big or whatever nitpick they choose to manufacture... *sigh*
Comics are a mental poison. They'll drain you of critical thinking and supplant ideologies in you unknowingly. They're great tools for propaganda and are often used by invading countries to demoralize the native population. I'm not saying never read them but be sure to read a regular book as much as you can.

@5t3n0g0ph3r you got it, boss.
 
But Dave Sim is the hill you want to die on. Good to know I can read the Communist Manifesto and as long as it's not a comic, I won't be ingesting poison ideologies. Thanks for the deep thoughts!
You should absolutely read that and dast kapital and all that nonsense if that's what you're into. The difference in communist rags like that is you know what you're getting into when you read it.

A child reading xmen doesn't have the capacity to discern that same type of mental poison as an adult does. Maybe you're not smart enough, but i like to think most adults are.

Edit: you also need to know your enemy. You can argue better against a retarded commie if you already know the literature they will be pulling from
 
How do you know you're into it or not until you read it? There are good books and bad books, there are good comic books and bad comic books. Illustrations don't usually make something poison if it wasn't already. Everything from board books, to YA fiction, to fully adult fiction labelled as non-fiction will require critical thinking on some level. You might as well start with maintaining a set of principles and sticking with them and sorting out the material as you go. Assuming an entire art medium is intrisically evil because of pictures, you can take your half-baked iconoclast ways elsewhere.

I have to commend your committing to the full retard bit when you sperg about the treatment of Dave Sim only to turn around and call what Dave Sim does as poison anyway.
 
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