Infected MGTOW - Men Going Their Own Way

[KimCoppolaAficionado]

I think there's a disconnect somewhere here. I'm not saying that polygamy was never an accepted thing in any society ever, I'm saying in most cases it wasn't, and as we know today, open relationships/multiple marriages are psychologically harmful.

We don't know that. We know that given current cultural contexts they're harmful to the average American. In the modern day, the equivalent of this lifestyle (very little marriage compared to Whitey and men bouncing between two or three women every couple of years) is still practiced by the Cherokee people, and, bluntly, they seem more psychologically well-adjusted then the palefaces I grew up around who believe in abstinence-only and marriage being an irrevocable soul-sealing contract for Eternity, even when you add in the miserable shit-storm that is being an injun.
You are saying, to my understanding, that anything besides Puritan-strict two-become-one-flesh monogamy causes serious psychological damage in all cases. I'm saying that it depends on cultural context. If you want to say you believe it damns the soul, just say that instead of dragging it into the realm of verifiable fact.

I don't think you can dismiss it that way, but I agree with the idea.

You can. You bring up issues of succession created by bastard children. I will respond that where a bastard cannot be found, history has created them. Many a would-be lord has claimed dubious fatherhood to attempt to climb the path to nobility, and many have succeeded. Most of your other points are outright ahistorical- you talk about NA societies practicing patriarchal polygamy centered around warlords when, to my knowledge, none did so (I will confess my knowledge is focused on the Mound Builder-descended cultures, who were weakly matriarchal, with men and women taking part in government but female elders having greater influence).

And it's a shame it's considered that way, that's the only point I'm "whiteknighting" on. That men should be assumed to seek out sex and relationships or else there's something wrong with them, and that society as a whole is too hypersexualized and common attitudes have drifted away from faithful monogamy to carefree sex. Then again, a good chunk of MGTOW just whines about not getting laid, and I don't agree with that either. I can get the idea though that a man just doesn't want to seek a relationship, especially when nowadays you get a lot more bad than good out of it. Where they mess up is thinking degeneracy is something only women are hit by. All of our culture's full of that shit, both genders. Like in my example, Gordon got sensational journalism'd by the press even in the Victorian era, but at least back then the idea of sex was still more of a thing between faithful couples and not just something everyone runs around doing for fun, which has had a statistical net negative impact on everything from marriage to disease rates today. Before the whole counterculture movement, you just didn't see that kind of apathetic do-whatever attitude you see so common now, and the way things are going old values are only gonna keep fading away in favor of hypersexualization and a general slide toward all the other shit propagated by the political left.

You are living on another planet you have constructed for yourself out of outrage porn (which is more poisonous for the soul than mere sexual pornography, for the former is insidious and breeds wholly negative feelings instead of a blend of positive and negative ones). You can find fairly prevalent takes from every shade of the political spectrum speaking against "oversexualization"- which alone shows that we aren't this nightmare world you live in where polycules and open relationships are the norm and also indicates that "the left" isn't responsible. If you think the owners of Hustler and Pornhub are on the left, I have bad news for you. Hell, if you think that the right aren't a huge consumer of and advocate for pornography, I have bad news for you. The Religious Right as the dominant power block of the GOP ended in the mid-2000's.

 

[Doctor Professor Timon]

Anything before the last few decades probably. Sex being pushed as hypercommon and casual wasn't a thing for most of history. People weren't encouraged to go fuck everyone they possibly could. There were exceptions, yeah, but the general attitude for most of modern western history was monogamy being the right way to have a relationship. Now you get websites and media stories all over the place about how monogamy's lame and swinging is the way, and culture tries to hammer that point home. The redpill shits do it too, thinking hypergamy of men is somehow any better. Hypergamy itself is wrong, as is polyamory, as are open relationships, whatever. It destroys relationships and fucks up the mind. Look at how many cows are born after starting some kind of open relationship bullshit.
I've been using hypergamy the wrong way, also. Damn.

Nah. The vocal minority of MGTOW who want wifebeating or no rights for women brought back are autistic, that's not something I or I think most of the whole group want.

Let me explain something. I -was- MGTOW. Then, like all other movements, it got corrupted by every dumb-fuck incel and idiot crying about how they can't / won't get laid, but will turn at the slightest offer of pussy.

MGTOW was about - going your own way, choosing your own path in life while minimizing risk to yourself. For instance, I am going my own way and don't associate with a movement. I do not want to get married, I do not have interest in sexual relationships - the time / money investment is something I can afford, but don't want to - I'd rather save and invest in my retirement and retire by my late 30s to mid-40s rather than be a wage slave the rest of my life.

I'm happy to be single and explore my passions in life, learn new skills, languages, and so on. I'm just uninterested in marriage and the anchors it brings to personal freedoms. That's it. If I die alone with only a few friends at my funeral - that's all I want. A few close friends who knew me for me, a cheap funeral, etc.

Movement used to be good, went full retard. Simple as that.

 

[trashbat]

I can think of no reality in the United States where polyamory is more popular than monogamy.

i'm glad you can't think of any social sphere in which the men are typically soy golems, but i promise you such circles are not hard to find

 

[off meds / online]

i'm glad you can't think of any social sphere where the men are typically soy golems, but i promise you such circles are not hard to find

that doesn't really refute my point. where in the united states is polyamory the norm? where do families teach their kids that they're expected to bring home two spouses? where do wedding planners give you a weird look when you say "oh sorry, there's actually only one groom and one bride"?

hell, even within the community more infamous for it, Mormons, polygamy is generally reserved for high status members. in lgbtq+ circles, people who obnoxiously shop around for a third are pretty openly laughed at.

please leave the house and participate in the world around you. whatever media you're consuming that's telling you that the norm is now polyamory is farming your outrage.

 

[trashbat]

that doesn't really refute my point. where in the united states is polyamory the norm? where do families teach their kids that they're expected to bring home two spouses? where do wedding planners give you a weird look when you say "oh sorry, there's actually only one groom and one bride"?

hell, even within the community more infamous for it, Mormons, polygamy is generally reserved for high status members. in lgbtq+ circles, people who obnoxiously shop around for a third are pretty openly laughed at.

please leave the house and participate in the world around you. whatever media you're consuming that's telling you that the norm is now polyamory is farming your outrage.

i think you're arguing with somebody else

 

[off meds / online]

i think you're arguing with somebody else

no? you're the one who attempted to refute me saying that there's nowhere in the US that polyamory/polygamy is more popular than monogamy.

 

[trashbat]

no? you're the one who attempted to refute me saying that there's nowhere in the US that polyamory/polygamy is more popular than monogamy.

it's just a weird reply that puts a lot of words in my mouth. you find normative nonmonogamy wherever there are strong incentives to larp as a radical -- it's seen as the more progressive arrangement, so even if you don't practice it, those who do are implicitly your betters. people who fall into these circles often get pressured into open relationships, eat shit with a grin, and go back for seconds before declaring "it's not for me, but it works for some people." they obviously don't go to wedding planners or teach their children anything, because they see getting married and having kids as unfashionable

idk where you got the idea that i'm outraged, but it's definitely a sore spot. i've been dealing with these people for my entire adult life -- i find them among my coworkers, friends, i've even had the misfortune of dating a couple of them -- and at some point you get fed up with people you care about acting like retards. in real life, normalized nonmonogamy doesn't look like polyamorous wedding planners and children's books about "my third dad;" it's another facet of the disordered relationships typical among particular classes of clever-silly people, who make no attempt to transpose conventional institutions to their conspicuously unconventional lifestyles

 

[Rich Evans Apologist]

i'm glad you can't think of any social sphere in which the men are typically soy golems, but i promise you such circles are not hard to find

Even soy golems tend to be primarily monogamous. Individual poly groups have existed since forever, and will forever exist in urban centers. Turns out if you can find three groups of six weirdo sex pests orbiting a hamplanet in a city of millions, no-one cares.

Really, you should be thinking about China if you want to make this case. Given the disastrous effects of the one-child-policy on the birthrates of the sexes, there's like 1.17 men for every 1 woman. That'll be a fun time! Boy, if the great firewall just wasn't a fucking thing, that'd be fascinating to study. How does a generation of men that -genuinely- have way too few women to compete for deal with it, rather than a bunch of people in a 50-50 (or better) split who think their best shot is to say this shit unironically

 

[trashbat]

Really, you should be thinking about China if you want to make this case.

the case for what? my original point was that these big cultural narratives about the mainstreaming of polyamory (and about perceived trends in relationships broadly) come from people's experiences with very narrow slivers of the larger culture. if everyone you know is a certain way, it's easy to leap to the conclusion that everyone is a certain way -- then you end up in slapfights where everyone involved is telling the truth as they know it, but it looks wrong to everyone else because they don't come from the same social context

 

[Rich Evans Apologist]

if everyone you know is a certain way, it's easy to leap to the conclusion that everyone is a certain way -- then you end up in slapfights where everyone involved is telling the truth as they know it, but it looks wrong to everyone else because they don't come from the same social context

So as long as I can find one instance of six soy golems orbiting a hamplanet in Portland, that's going to qualify as a 'reality' in which poly is more common than mono?
That's a pretty narrow interpretation of 'reality.' That'd be like me saying that poly was in some spheres more popular than mono in the late 1970s because of Jim Jones.

 

[Fougaro]

Let me explain something. I -was- MGTOW.

Unless I have it all back asswards from my background research, from what I understood being a MGTOW means you are a man who is not interested in marriage, dating and/or even interaction with women for whatever reasons and everything else is optional. For all intents and purposes - and that is if I'm not mistaken - you're still one.

I am going my own way and don't associate with a movement.

It's, from what I can tell at least, less of a movement, but more of a glorified coping community.

 

[trashbat]

So as long as I can find one instance of six soy golems orbiting a hamplanet in Portland, that's going to qualify as a 'reality' in which poly is more common than mono?
That's a pretty narrow interpretation of 'reality.' That'd be like me saying that poly was in some spheres more popular than mono in the late 1970s because of Jim Jones.

"everyone you know is a certain way" obviously does not translate to "that one gross nerd couple you read about on the internet" (and nobody builds polycules irl anyway, it's usually more like open cheating with some thin political/countercultural pretense)

Given the disastrous effects of the one-child-policy on the birthrates of the sexes, there's like 1.17 men for every 1 woman. That'll be a fun time! Boy, if the great firewall just wasn't a fucking thing, that'd be fascinating to study. How does a generation of men that -genuinely- have way too few women to compete for deal with it, rather than a bunch of people in a 50-50 (or better) split who think their best shot is to say this shit unironically

relationship dynamics can change pretty drastically depending on your sex, education, age, income, the city in which you live, the industry in which you work, etc. the national sex ratio might be basically even, but it can get pretty lopsided when you account for e.g. educational attainment or IQ, both of which change your dating pool. if you're a gainfully employed bay area tech nerd, you're highly eligible on paper, but the industry attracts guys like you to the city more than it attracts the kinds of women you'd be interested in. consequently, your normal isn't a flyover prole's normal isn't an east coast creative's normal. that's what i mean by "parallel realities"

i believe peach pit when he says he senses "an expectation for adults to settle down and get married." i know a lot of people who primarily experience pressure in the opposite direction, so i think it's plausible that chungus sees some of the things he claims to, even if his diagnosis of the problem is probably wrong

 

[Doctor Professor Timon]

Unless I have it all back asswards from my background research, from what I understood being a MGTOW means you are a man who is not interested in marriage, dating and/or even interaction with women for whatever reasons and everything else is optional. For all intents and purposes - and that is if I'm not mistaken - you're still one.

No. Being a perpetual bachelor is not a new thing altogether. New era, different name. I never said I wasn't interested in interacting with women. I have women who are my friends. However, I'm also a loner. I only interact with anyone as much as I'm forced to. I avoid marriage and relationships altogether because I believe it is unbalanced and doesn't give me anything that I want out of life.

I don't want crotch-fruit of my own or others' makings in my life. I'm barely responsible for my cats - you expect me to raise children? Fuck that.

MGTOW is moreso about avoiding women altogether and self-insulating from them - for fear of false rape allegations, child support out of nowhere, and so on. I don't self-insulate from them, I work with them, and have them as my friends. I'm not worried about false rape allegations because I don't really interact with anyone in private settings. If someone wants to hang out, I have to get drug out of my home to a public place. I never just hang out with a single person - not out of some self-preservation instinct, it's just a waste of time for me if it's not multiple friends.

It's, from what I can tell at least, less of a movement, but more of a glorified coping community.

It's really not. In some areas of the country, it's actually -very- dangerous to let your girlfriend live with you - as you can be considered de facto married or in a marititious (sc) relationship. And she can actually bring you to court. In some states, it's legal to anonymously report or accuse someone of rape, domestic abuse, etc. and even get their licenses suspended.

Some areas have disproportionate laws in regard to this. People from those areas would do well to know the rules, especially if it can cost them so much. Especially "yes means yes" law where a woman can decide the next day they didn't want to have sex and accuse you of rape (has happened).

 

[BiggerChungus]

Let me explain something. I -was- MGTOW. Then, like all other movements, it got corrupted by every dumb-fuck incel and idiot crying about how they can't / won't get laid, but will turn at the slightest offer of pussy.

MGTOW was about - going your own way, choosing your own path in life while minimizing risk to yourself. For instance, I am going my own way and don't associate with a movement. I do not want to get married, I do not have interest in sexual relationships - the time / money investment is something I can afford, but don't want to - I'd rather save and invest in my retirement and retire by my late 30s to mid-40s rather than be a wage slave the rest of my life.

I'm happy to be single and explore my passions in life, learn new skills, languages, and so on. I'm just uninterested in marriage and the anchors it brings to personal freedoms. That's it. If I die alone with only a few friends at my funeral - that's all I want. A few close friends who knew me for me, a cheap funeral, etc.

Movement used to be good, went full retard. Simple as that.

More I think about it, yeah, it does sound pretty retarded. They keep the point going about how sex is too overblown but bitch and whine about not getting laid, and the problem is more them making it too important.

Honestly, that says a lot more about you than the people you're trying to criticize.

Yeah, you're right. It's not looking so logical anymore to me.

No. Being a perpetual bachelor is not a new thing altogether. New era, different name. I never said I wasn't interested in interacting with women. I have women who are my friends. However, I'm also a loner. I only interact with anyone as much as I'm forced to. I avoid marriage and relationships altogether because I believe it is unbalanced and doesn't give me anything that I want out of life.

I don't want crotch-fruit of my own or others' makings in my life. I'm barely responsible for my cats - you expect me to raise children? Fuck that.

That's the only part that I agreed with anyway, the idea that yeah, it's totally fine if people want to do their own thing without the expectation of marriage, kids, and romance. I'm not looking for any of those things but MGTOW complains about them because it's exactly what they want. They desperately want sex and marriage and perceived success through it and because they don't get it they hate it and bitch about it. The Sam Hyde video is too accurate and I think I really had a warped perception of what the movement was about and how people in it acted.

 

[CivilianOfTheFandomWars]

I really think MGTOW became more prevalent for a couple of reasons, some understandable and some full-on retarded. Obviously, the Internet had a big part in it, that's the nature of being able to communicate with anyone in the world from your desk. But, here's what I've found overall.
You would always have men warning younger guys against things like marriage, messing with single moms, messing with women who are obviously bad ideas, things like that specifically about relationships with women. This makes some sense, if you've been burned by an experience you've had it's natural to warn other people about that. We can argue forever about how just or unjust certain laws or social mores are, but it is what it is. So, who used to be the uncle who's wife cheated on him with the poolboy now posts on Reddit instead of being drunk during family reunions. That's part one.
Part two is that, this is unfortunate yet true for a lot of young guys, men's mental health and happiness is usually ignored until it's too late. So, a guy who's suffering is able to (hopefully) find support in MGTOW. You do find stories of guys who had some issues, they came across some MGTOW things about working out and self-betterment and are happier after they worked on themselves. This is the ideal MGTOW experience, a bunch of lads helping each other because they feel the system has failed them in some regard. You see a lot of this is gym-culture as well.
Then we got to the third part, the Incels. The Incels decided that they didn't want sex anyways and that it's actually societies fault for their virginity. This mainly happened after a bunch of Incel places got banned and they migrated to MGTOW places. So, now you've got a marked divide of the Incels and the dudes who say, "Yeah, have sex, have a gf, just be careful and know the risks", and then go back to collecting cigars or whatever.
So, I don't think it's a 'cope' exactly, I think it's a longing for a "Male Space" that got more and more retarded as time went on.

 

[Stasi]

Youtube decided to recommend some MGTOW videos in my feed and I've had a bunch running as background noise while I do stuff around the house recently. I think the story time type videos about people's relationships imploding are a new guilty pleasure for me now, I enjoy them in the same way you would gawk at a train crash.

My initial assessment is a lot of these MGTOW people make some good points but can't help but spill their spaghetti all over the place. All you have to do is stay on message and not spaz out and you can't even manage that.

Like this guy has some interesting videos and makes some good points. One of them, can't rememebr which, he is roasting some feminist who made herself look stupid and then at the end out of nowhere starts talking about how sex robots will emancipate men from relying on women for sexual gratification and lead to a bright future and better society. Bro...what the fuck? That is some MovieBob tier shit. Take a long hard look at yourself.

 

[off meds / online]

sex robots will emancipate men from relying on women for sexual gratification and lead to a bright future and better society. Bro...what the fuck? That is some MovieBob tier shit. Take a long hard look at yourself.

sex robot can't make me dinner, unsubscribed.

 

[KimCoppolaAficionado]

I really think MGTOW became more prevalent for a couple of reasons, some understandable and some full-on retarded. Obviously, the Internet had a big part in it, that's the nature of being able to communicate with anyone in the world form your desk. But, here's what I've found overall.
You would always have men warning younger guys against things like marriage, messing with single moms, messing with women who are obviously bad ideas, things like that specifically about relationships with women. This makes some sense, if you've been burned by an experience you've had it's natural to warn other people about that. We can argue forever about how just or unjust certain laws or social mores are, but it is what it is. So, who used to be the uncle who's wife cheated on him with the poolboy now posts on Reddit instead of being drunk during family reunions. That's part one.
Part two is that, this is unfortunate yet true for a lot of young guys, men's mental health and happiness is usually ignored until it's too late. So, a guy who's suffering is able to (hopefully) find support in MGTOW. You do find stories of guys who had some issues, they came across some MGTOW things about working out and self-betterment and are happier after they worked on themselves. This is the ideal MGTOW experience, a bunch of lads helping each other because they feel the system has failed them in some regard. You see a lot of this is gym-culture as well.
Then we got to the third part, the Incels. The Incels decided that they didn't want sex anyways and that it's actually societies fault for their virginity. This mainly happened after a bunch of Incel places got banned and they migrated to MGTOW places. So, now you've got a marked divide of the Incels and the dudes who say, "Yeah, have sex, have a gf, just be careful and know the risks", and then go back to collecting cigars or whatever.
So, I don't think it's a 'cope' exactly, I think it's a longing for a "Male Space" that got more and more retarded as time went on.

Using MGTOW for self-help is like using heroin for pain management- you're "solving the problem" (psychological pain over bad relationships or w/e), but aren't addressing the actual issue and are just pumping poison into your veins. It's all fine and dandy to talk about the "ideal" form of MGTOW, but those types of groups aren't identifying themselves as MGTOW in the first place- like how "feminists" are all now mostly crazy radfems because all the sane forms of feminist thought have gotten pervasive enough that you call people who hold those views 'normal human beings".

My initial assessment is a lot of these MGTOW people make some good points but can't help but spill their spaghetti all over the place. All you have to do is stay on message and not spaz out and you can't even manage that.

Name them, and explain why you have to go to MGTOW instead of, say, some self-help book for it.

My two cents, since we're all doing storytime right now: MGTOW, like incels and a lot of other shit, is the result of too many boys growing up without a male role model.

 

[Rich Evans Apologist]

Spoiler: beeg sektion

and nobody builds polycules irl anyway, it's usually more like open cheating with some thin political/countercultural pretense

I mean, there were open side-hustles in much of the 50s, you had the radicals and hippies in the 60s-70s with the same countercultural pretense, and there are plenty of people who just do so without any pretense whatsoever. Yet in none of these cases do I find any real form of widespread support beyond niche subcultures at the most.

"everyone you know is a certain way" obviously does not translate to "that one gross nerd couple you read about on the internet"

If someone is born or socialized into one of these niche subcultures, that's about the only place I can see it reflected in reality - sure, if your entire life is in online spheres, you might also get a warped worldview that leads you to think there's a huge push towards avoiding monogamy. That's where the "go outside" thing comes in -- but for someone who is in one of these subcultures... I mean, just leave it. The main social pillars everywhere push towards monogamy and 1:1 relationships.

Even very liberal places that are laissez-faire with sexuality aren't expressly pushing people to adopt a purely-hookup attitude, instead simply pressing couples to fuck after the first date rather than after getting significantly into the relationship. I don't personally care for that approach myself, so I just don't do it despite falling into that group.

relationship dynamics can change pretty drastically depending on your sex, education, age, income, the city in which you live, the industry in which you work, etc.

This is a bit of an aside from the idea of the mono-poly cultural prominence, but I can see the tangential relationship. I'll say that it's nothing new, though. The idea of relationships and marriage has indeed changed from something of a mandatory job to the more romanticized version, and the decline of religiosity among the US population at large has removed a common social/community pillar through which many people met, yes. Yet even with those things at their most prominent, all of the other factors still came into play.

This is why I brought up China. People here are arguing that trends are destiny - IE, that women have tended to date "at and above" while men have tended to date "at and below" in terms of their collective socioeconomic value. The thinking goes that as more women enter the middle class and become professionals, they will compete for the vanishingly small crop of men above their socioeconomic value -- and such men will enjoy true chad-dom, basking in their harems. Or you'll see a strange reversal where women get a collective gaggle of lower-value simp-men to serve as their harem.

Yet the reason that these trends aren't destiny is obvious: it's supposing that they won't change, that a period of transition won't change anything, and that this systematic undersanding of the world is ironclad. Despite the fact that it depends on endlessly quantifying the unquantifiable. I'll go into that in the next point, but I want to draw the comparison to China here: not only is their society also going through massive social upheaval as more women enter the workforce and professional class, but it's got a .17-.19 deficit of women to men. That's a very unavoidable thing which is not predicated on endlessly trying to quantify human interactions.

but the industry attracts guys like you to the city more than it attracts the kinds of women you'd be interested in. consequently, your normal isn't a flyover prole's normal isn't an east coast creative's normal. that's what i mean by "parallel realities"

What kind of women are silicon valley tech bros interested in, exactly? Boston's reality isn't New York's reality isn't Miami's reality isn't Milwaukee's reality isn't so-on, so-forth, yes. Yet it's sophistry to suppose that everything is solidified, quantifiable, understood. What -is- the Boston reality? What -is- the LA reality? It's making endless abstractions to try to construct a system which excuses the individual's inability to get a partner, which includes the suggestion that there's spheres in which monogamy is shat upon and that's why it's never worth it to go for a relationship.
I wouldn't call myself a looker or a big earner, but charisma, humor, confidence, and a Rich Evans tramp stamp go a long way to change my circumstances. How do I calculate them? How do I know where I am on the number scale or where women are on the number scale and blah blah blah blah blah - it's all overthinking.

i know a lot of people who primarily experience pressure in the opposite direction, so i think it's plausible that chungus sees the things he claims to, even if his diagnosis of the problem is probably wrong

I just don't see how people can primarily experience it in the opposite direction without the exposure to monogamous pushes pulling them away from it. It's what leads me to believe that these instances are usual insular and closed-circuit, depending on a willfull desire to stay submerged in them.

Spoiler: second chonk, as this is all arguably off-topic

That's the only part that I agreed with anyway, the idea that yeah, it's totally fine if people want to do their own thing without the expectation of marriage, kids, and romance.

I think most people would broadly agree with that statement. MGTOW goes too far in trying to come up with these endless theories and formulas and factoids and evaluations and explanations and so-on and so-forth, as if it were evangelical and in need of convincing others of its merits. That, to me, defeats the entire point of the "GTOW" part, given such a community should primarily exist more as a means by which to help people decoupling from romantic pursuits instead channel their energy into hobbies, self-improvement, so-on rather than trying to grow their ranks or convince others of the validity of their perspective.

It's not helped by the fact that there's really no gatekeeping. Someone who gets stabbed in the back by their spouse and has a lot of their life's work sortof crumble down in front of them that chooses to give up on romantic pursuits is a lot different from some dumb early-20 that doesn't realize that dating sucks. Yet there's probably a lot more of the latter out there in the world, so necessarily you're going to see any community built around this kindof solitary pursuit become overwhelmed with entitled chucklefucks who, complete anathema to the self-improvement original idea, are just frustrated at the fact that they might have to actually improve themselves to get a date. As you say, it's paradoxically people claiming that romantic pursuits are useless... who spend hours and days and months trying to justify it to themselves, with this undercurrent of resentment. The people that actually would go their own way... just left the weird community to pursue their own shit, I'd imagine.

I just personally can't understand the overthinking. I'm single, I'm not really looking through the pandemic, and I don't really have any plans to go out of my way any time soon into the internet dating cesspool. I'd rather get some shit done for the moment; I couldn't imagine trying to juggle a relationship with hobbies. Yet I don't really feel any pressure or need to explain that to other people or have them approve of it - it really only takes being honest with yourself.

Part two is that, this is unfortunate yet true for a lot of young guys, men's mental health and happiness is usually ignored until it's too late. So, a guy who's suffering is able to (hopefully) find support in MGTOW. You do find stories of guys who had some issues, they came across some MGTOW things about working out and self-betterment and are happier after they worked on themselves. This is the ideal MGTOW experience, a bunch of lads helping each other because they feel the system has failed them in some regard. You see a lot of this is gym-culture as well.

I remember there also being something of a push for "man sheds" or something in the US based on models in Europe which showed a market and longing for spaces for dudes to express and deal with their mental health issues through learning a skill, plying their hand, being active, mentoring and learning, so-on. Sortof like getting the good portions of MGTOW into a real-world parallel... which would be insulated from the incels and losers thanks to the fact that they're not the sort to leave their houses and socialize to begin with.

 

[off meds / online]

MGTOW, like incels and a lot of other shit, is the result of too many boys growing up without a male role model.

I don't think that's completely true. Plenty of them grow up without one, but I see a similar amount that talk about their stable nuclear family. In those cases, I think this behavior comes from their inability to live up to the example set by the male role model in their life.