The Trial of Derek Chauvin - Judgement(?) Day(?) has arrived!

Outcome?

  • Guilty of Murder

    Votes: 75 7.6%
  • Not Guilty of Murder (2nd/3rd), Guilty of Manslaughter

    Votes: 397 40.0%
  • Full Acquittal

    Votes: 221 22.3%
  • Mistrial

    Votes: 299 30.1%

  • Total voters
    992
  • Poll closed .
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This new case doesn't really have that hallmark divisive quality, there was some hubbub from the Blue Lives crowd for a few hours about "Well this is what happens when you don't train po-leece and defund the training!" But it was revealed she was a 26 year Vet who was at one time President of the Police Union, so there is no leg to stand on.
How so? In service training is very much a thing and she clearly wasn't keeping up on it. There shouldn't be anything to be divided on but BLM is claiming that she's lying about it being an accident and murdered him on purpose anyway.
 
Excuse me if this has been established already, I have not read the whole thread or caught the bulk of the trial.

Is there some expectation in a murder charge that motive be established? Like has the prosecution alleged chauvin harbors racial biases or violent tendencies?

I don't really understand how you can charge someone with murder if you can't explicate a reason for the person committing the murder. Manslaughter, I understand can be merely the result of negligence.
In this particular case, premeditation isn't an element of second- and third-degree murder.

Second degree, roughly speaking, is causing the death of a person while committing another felony (without meaning to kill anyone), or the person unintentionally dies while you're assaulting them.

Third degree murder is killing someone because you were doing something inherently dangerous and you showed signs of a depraved mind with reckless disregard for the safety of others. It's like firing a gun into a crowd without specifically targeting someone or meaning to kill someone, but someone dies from it anyway.
 
In this particular case, premeditation isn't an element of second- and third-degree murder.

Second degree, roughly speaking, is causing the death of a person while committing another felony (without meaning to kill anyone), or the person unintentionally dies while you're assaulting them.

Third degree murder is killing someone because you were doing something inherently dangerous and you showed signs of a depraved mind with reckless disregard for the safety of others. It's like firing a gun into a crowd without specifically targeting someone or meaning to kill someone, but someone dies from it anyway.

Which makes no sense because theres no similarity to a depraved heart murder because it would mean that he would have had to show up for work that day looking for a n*gger to kill. I think its impossible to prove that he actually intended it to happen so 3rd and second are off the table.
 
In this particular case, premeditation isn't an element of second- and third-degree murder.

Second degree, roughly speaking, is causing the death of a person while committing another felony (without meaning to kill anyone), or the person unintentionally dies while you're assaulting them.

Third degree murder is killing someone because you were doing something inherently dangerous and you showed signs of a depraved mind with reckless disregard for the safety of others. It's like firing a gun into a crowd without specifically targeting someone or meaning to kill someone, but someone dies from it anyway.
Ah I see, maybe a legal difference between countries. Where I am there is no 3rd degree murder (its called manslaughter) and 2nd degree is still a deliberate killing, just one which is not premeditated.
 
How so? In service training is very much a thing and she clearly wasn't keeping up on it. There shouldn't be anything to be divided on but BLM is claiming that she's lying about it being an accident and murdered him on purpose anyway.
"If convicted of this charge, Potter could face a sentence of up to 10 years in prison and/or a fine of up to $20,000, reports CNN."
If Crump somehow grifts additional charges onto this, I would be inclined to agree with you, but at the moment, I don't see many people going up to bat for her to defend her against 10 years.
 
Which makes no sense because theres no similarity to a depraved heart murder because it would mean that he would have had to show up for work that day looking for a n*gger to kill. I think its impossible to prove that he actually intended it to happen so 3rd and second are off the table.
I don't know. "Imma bag myself a negro today" sounds like premeditation, in that you've made the decision to go kill someone. Which would be first degree.

For second, I think the argument they were trying to make was that Chauvin was using excessive force which resulted in George Foreman's death.

For third, they were arguing that applying the neon neck was inherently dangerous and the way Chauvin was acting showed a depraved heart.

Ah I see, maybe a legal difference between countries. Where I am there is no 3rd degree murder (its called manslaughter) and 2nd degree is still a deliberate killing, just one which is not premeditated.
You can read the actual statutes for Second and Third, specifically for Minnesota. Laws can vary state to state. In California, far as I can tell, 2nd degree murder is similar to what you have, the deliberate killing or someone but without premeditation. California also doesn't have third degree murder.

Confused? Welcome to the US justice system!
 
"If convicted of this charge, Potter could face a sentence of up to 10 years in prison and/or a fine of up to $20,000, reports CNN."
If Crump somehow grifts additional charges onto this, I would be inclined to agree with you, but at the moment, I don't see many people going up to bat for her to defend her against 10 years.
I'm not saying people should defend her because she clearly fucked up, I'm saying that Crump and his ilk are going to try and divide people over it anyway by trying to make it out to be another case of some heinously racist murder instead of just a case of staggering incompetence. Whether people bite and run with that narrative is yet to be seen.
 
Designed by lawyers to make lawyers indispensable because most everyone else can't fucking hope to make heads or tails of most of this bullshit
Not in this case, in this case it's because America is basically 50 countries banded together to make 1. So comparing California Law to Texas Law is like comparing British Law to French Law.
 
Is there some expectation in a murder charge that motive be established? Like has the prosecution alleged chauvin harbors racial biases or violent tendencies?
Not strictly speaking, but you have to prove intent and premeditation for first degree. It's pretty hard to convince a jury of that without proving motive, although in some senseless crimes, intent can be inferred from the circumstances, e.g. you laid in wait for the person and then shot them in the back.

They're not even trying to prove that though because he isn't charged with that.
Ah I see, maybe a legal difference between countries. Where I am there is no 3rd degree murder (its called manslaughter) and 2nd degree is still a deliberate killing, just one which is not premeditated.
Third degree murder doesn't exist most places in the U.S. either and is usually called manslaughter. Minnesota has third degree murder and there is also a manslaughter statute. Only three states have a crime specifically called third degree murder. Minnesota is one and Pennsylvania and Florida are the others.
 
Not strictly speaking, but you have to prove intent and premeditation for first degree. It's pretty hard to convince a jury of that without proving motive, although in some senseless crimes, intent can be inferred from the circumstances, e.g. you laid in wait for the person and then shot them in the back.

They're not even trying to prove that though because he isn't charged with that.
Isn't it hypothetically possible (but difficult) to prove premeditation in even the few moments leading up to the killing, though?
 
I don't know. "Imma bag myself a negro today" sounds like premeditation, in that you've made the decision to go kill someone. Which would be first degree.

For second, I think the argument they were trying to make was that Chauvin was using excessive force which resulted in George Foreman's death.

For third, they were arguing that applying the neon neck was inherently dangerous and the way Chauvin was acting showed a depraved heart.


You can read the actual statutes for Second and Third, specifically for Minnesota. Laws can vary state to state. In California, far as I can tell, 2nd degree murder is similar to what you have, the deliberate killing or someone but without premeditation. California also doesn't have third degree murder.

Confused? Welcome to the US justice system!
mm so I guess if Chauvin is to be charged with unintentional murder in the second degree, the prosecution has to prove he was assaulting Floyd (a felony) and in the course of the commitment of that felony Floyd was killed. Superficially it feels weird to refer to cops restraining someone as an assault. I guess you have to prove that it goes beyond necessity or something.

Im reading now about third degree charges, pretty amusing that was kicked back and forth between the judge and the prosecution. Somehow they have to prove Chauvin had a "depraved mind"

You're right, I am confused. However you read enough post-colonial legal land grabs and nothing seems that absurd anymore.
 
mm so I guess if Chauvin is to be charged with unintentional murder in the second degree, the prosecution has to prove he was assaulting Floyd (a felony) and in the course of the commitment of that felony Floyd was killed. Superficially it feels weird to refer to cops restraining someone as an assault. I guess you have to prove that it goes beyond necessity or something.

Im reading now about third degree charges, pretty amusing that was kicked back and forth between the judge and the prosecution. Somehow they have to prove Chauvin had a "depraved mind"

You're right, I am confused. However you read enough post-colonial legal land grabs and nothing seems that absurd anymore.
You'll notice they absolutely abandoned defending the depraved mind bit. Not a single one of their witnesses was saying he had any form of a depraved mind.
 
You'll notice they absolutely abandoned defending the depraved mind bit. Not a single one of their witnesses was saying he had any form of a depraved mind.
Yeah its so strange that they felt strongly about including that charge. Like isnt it enough to get him on the manslaughter and 2nd degree?
 
Nancy Pelosi decided to chime in.
George Floyd wouldn't have died if she was there, she would have walked right over and pulled Chauvin off.

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Link to the article:
 
mm so I guess if Chauvin is to be charged with unintentional murder in the second degree, the prosecution has to prove he was assaulting Floyd (a felony) and in the course of the commitment of that felony Floyd was killed. Superficially it feels weird to refer to cops restraining someone as an assault. I guess you have to prove that it goes beyond necessity or something.

Im reading now about third degree charges, pretty amusing that was kicked back and forth between the judge and the prosecution. Somehow they have to prove Chauvin had a "depraved mind"

You're right, I am confused. However you read enough post-colonial legal land grabs and nothing seems that absurd anymore.
And you have to be remember, it has to be beyond a reasonable doubt. If there's even a chance that Chauvin wasn't acting with a depraved mind, or whatever, that should be an acquittal.

It's up to the jury, but I think Nelson's been doing pretty good sowing doubt.

You'll notice they absolutely abandoned defending the depraved mind bit. Not a single one of their witnesses was saying he had any form of a depraved mind.
I remember there was also an argument (dunno if it was in the trial proper or just on the internet), that the language says "dangerous to others" as in others, plural, and since Chauvin was only dangerous to Floyd, singular, 3rd degree shouldn't be valid. Dunno if I'd buy that argument, but a defense is a defense.

Nancy Pelosi decided to chime in.
George Floyd wouldn't have died if she was there, she would have walked right over and pulled Chauvin off.

View attachment 2088943

Link to the article:
Damn. If only.

Then Thao or Lane could've given her the neon neck and America would be better for it.
 
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