Mystery Science Theater 3000 and Rifftrax

[Starscreams Cape]

Next up, season 4 where the show hits its stride.
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Definitely a strong season, though I'm disappointed he fell for the "Manos is the worst film of all time!" hype. It's not. It's not even the worst movie they did on MST3K. In fact, you don't even need to go out of S4 to find one worse. Monster A-Go-Go is almost unwatchable, even with the riffing. A movie that was literally hacked together after years in between filming. Where "there is no monster" is the big reveal because they simply didn't bother to put anything on film that would resolve what took place earlier.

Manos is very bad, but it does sort of inspire dread and loneliness. Mostly through its execution, but you can kind of see what he was going for in the movie.

 

[Commander X]

Definitely a strong season, though I'm disappointed he fell for the "Manos is the worst film of all time!" hype. It's not. It's not even the worst movie they did on MST3K. In fact, you don't even need to go out of S4 to find one worse. Monster A-Go-Go is almost unwatchable, even with the riffing. A movie that was literally hacked together after years in between filming. Where "there is no monster" is the big reveal because they simply didn't bother to put anything on film that would resolve what took place earlier.

Manos is very bad, but it does sort of inspire dread and loneliness. Mostly through its execution, but you can kind of see what he was going for in the movie.

HG Lewis finishing a movie Bill Rebane couldn't, it's like the ultimate collision of terrible 20th century Midwestern exploitation filmmaking.

 

[Tor Lugosi]

Manos (much like The Room) I think is actually too competently made to be one of the worst films of all time. There are so many movies that can't even get the sound mixing right, let alone have anything resembling a coherent plot or passable editing.

As for the MST3K seasons themselves, I've always thought 2 - 5 had a good, consistent quality to them and were the show's golden years. The series definitely had good seasons (and plenty of great episodes) afterward but I can't think of a stretch that's as consistently good as those years.

 

[Flexo]

I challenge your assertion that "competence" is even in the same zip code as Manos. Heck the Room at least had decent sound mixing and things in focus in the frame.

I mean it's still more watchable than Rollergator but at this point we're getting into quantum measurements of quality.

 

[BootlegPopeye]

I still vote that the 60s trash movies they riffed are far worse than the roadhouse/drive-in shlock like Manos. If I had to pick the absolute worst film they did, so painful it was hard to riff, by far it goes to Incredibly Strange Creatures who Stopped Living and Became Mixed-Up Zombies. I at least understood the 'plot' of Manos.

One would assume that the worse the movie is, the easier it would be to riff, but the 60s trash movies it is often unclear what the fuck is happening on screen, lines are often hard to understand due to incompetent film making, etc its a wonder MST3k even bothered.

 

[BScCollateral]

I challenge your assertion that "competence" is even in the same zip code as Manos.

Art design. The Master was played by a sculptor, who painted a self-portrait for the film as well as making most of the props.

The gigantic black dog was the family pet, which is why he is so well-behaved with the little girl.

 

[Tor Lugosi]

I challenge your assertion that "competence" is even in the same zip code as Manos. Heck the Room at least had decent sound mixing and things in focus in the frame.

I mean it's still more watchable than Rollergator but at this point we're getting into quantum measurements of quality.

For Manos I can actually hear & understand what the actors are saying most of the time and it has a plot that's bordering on comprehensible. Compare it to say, The Last Slumber Party, which I think is an actual contender for worst movie ever -- half the time the music drowns out the dialogue and the plot seems to be whatever they could think up that day of filming. There are bad movies and then there are movies that are unwatchable.

 

[Flexo]

Art design. The Master was played by a sculptor, who painted a self-portrait for the film as well as making most of the props.

The gigantic black dog was the family pet, which is why he is so well-behaved with the little girl.

OK I'll give you those points but am only counting them as one-quarter points each.

For Manos I can actually hear & understand what the actors are saying most of the time and it has a plot that's bordering on comprehensible. Compare it to say, The Last Slumber Party, which I think is an actual contender for worst movie ever -- half the time the music drowns out the dialogue and the plot seems to be whatever they could think up that day of filming. There are bad movies and then there are movies that are unwatchable.

Considering the "plot" I'm not sold that being able to hear the dubbing in manos is a point in the movie's favor. Remember how they "lose" Debbie 3 seconds after she walks out of the scene? Or Torgo's "flirting"?

Just admit you like the wife wrestling. lol

but yeah the last slumber party is pretty bad. However rifftrax did that one, not mst3k. We were discussing the mst scale. If you want to open the floor to all of cinema, well I already mentioned Rollergator.

Ankle Biters too has the worst sound mixing I've seen heard in awhile.

 

[Tor Lugosi]

but yeah the last slumber party is pretty bad. However rifftrax did that one, not mst3k. We were discussing the mst scale. If you want to open the floor to all of cinema, well I already mentioned Rollergator.

Oh, yeah, I was just talking in general. But as far as MST3K goes, I'd say Skydivers is even worse. Manos at least has some creativity in it and can be interesting to watch whereas Skydivers is both poorly made and completely, horribly boring.

 

[BootlegPopeye]

I had not followed everything rifftracks had done, I did not realize that they had done the last slumber party. I briefly owned a video of that and wow it was so bad I didn't make it past the first 5 minutes and ended up selling it. This coming from a guy that likes to collect low budget horror movies as long as they are halfway decent. They don't have to be cinematic masterpieces, but they have to have some appeal for me to keep them. The last slumber party was probably the worst one I owned.

 

[Flexo]

So as promised, here is Chuck now going back to visit the 1st season (not the KTMA season).

 

[Starscreams Cape]

I had not followed everything rifftracks had done, I did not realize that they had done the last slumber party. I briefly owned a video of that and wow it was so bad I didn't make it past the first 5 minutes and ended up selling it. This coming from a guy that likes to collect low budget horror movies as long as they are halfway decent. They don't have to be cinematic masterpieces, but they have to have some appeal for me to keep them. The last slumber party was probably the worst one I owned.

There was a stretch where it was on the RiffTrax Pluto TV channel constantly. The only riff I remember was Kevin Murphy saying something like "is there anything wrong? I haven't heard a homophobic slur for at least 5 minutes!". This after the girl in the Fran Tarkenton jersey had dropped her 12th "fucking faggot/homo" bomb.

Dreadful movie. Just dreadful. Manos is far better than this dreck.

 

[XYZpdq]

regarding Manos, my favorite production error is how you can see the clapboard production slate for a few frames in one of the makeout car scenes
not for the fact that the clapboard is visible, but there was no sound synch
Manos was all dubbed in post
there was no reason to have a clapboard other than "that's what those movie people do when they make movies, right?"
honestly Manos is pretty bad, the basic parts where things happen aren't too bad and some of the music is cool, but the padding like the (even longer outside of MST) driving scenes really drag

Coleman Francis was a weird one. He seems to be consciously aiming for a consistent vision of a miserable joyless world full of death and betrayal. Also he's the mail guy in This Island Earth.
iirc he was found dead by "suicide"

as for the "worst" movies on the show, it's a lot in how you define "worst"
Kitten With A Whip is one of the weakest episodes for me, but the movie is just this sorta bland Hollywood drama thing with decent casting
Girls Town at least has some easy stuff to play with like the nuns, Mamie Van Doren, Paul Anka, and Mel Torme (as a no-good hoodlum)
Daddy-O was another one that was just sort of there for me. Rebel Set, too.

as for some of the worst by traditional metrics as I skim the list of episodes on wiki
Fire Maidens From Outer Space
- whole lot of people standing around and nothing happening
Attack of the The Eye Creatures
- creepy greasy characters, tries to be tongue-in-cheek but not hard enough to work, they just didn't care. I find it a good episode but the movie's bad
Monster A-Go-Go
- as mentioned, Bill Rebane made half a movie, ran out of money, and eventually sold what he made to HGL who strung together enough shit to pack it into a double bill. Really bad about "here is a shot of... something." and reusing footage
Manos
- nuff said
Radar Secret Service
- lots of nothing happening
The Creeping Terror
- slow, dumb monster, vore fetish
Starfighters
- tons of stock footage of air force training, The Air Force As Themselves, basically a big ad for a particular jet. I like this one. I'm not into military shit but if I can see how if you're into military shit classic light jazz and jets blowing up targets is kinda dank.
Incredibly Strange Creatures
- tons of padding, as much as the crazy shit is crazy, there's a lot of killing time
Carnival Magic
- weird muddy story about a talking monkey who mumbles so you can barely make out a damn thing he's saying

 

[BootlegPopeye]

Just remembered a couple of other decent ones they did. I didn't think Amazing Colossal Man was bad at all (and if anything, it's something of a 50s sci fi classic). In the same vein, Revenge of the Creature was a fair sequel to the original Creature.

One thing they have to avoid is the movie being decent enough that you actually want them to shut up so you can watch. I admit at a couple points I got annoyed with them on Amazing Colossal Man due to some overlapping of the riffs with movie dialogue.

Almost forgot a whole 'nother category of shit films they did I don't think we've mentioned - the films that were largely nothing but stock footage of aircraft take offs/landings. I remember at least 2 of these and there were probably more that are slipping my mind.

 

[BScCollateral]

Almost forgot a whole 'nother category of shit films they did I don't think we've mentioned - the films that were largely nothing but stock footage of aircraft take offs/landings. I remember at least 2 of these and there were probably more that are slipping my mind.

Starfighters, a film that could only be enjoyed by someone who could spend an hour watching F-104s take off and land. I am that person, and I still didn't like it.

Kitten With A Whip is one of the weakest episodes for me, but the movie is just this sorta bland Hollywood drama thing with decent casting

I like stories where someone gets into a situation which rapidly spirals out of control, so perhaps I liked that one a bit more than it had any right to.

Quicksand with Mickey Rooney. Not an MST3K film, but damn it's good.

 

[Starscreams Cape]

I like stories where someone gets into a situation which rapidly spirals out of control, so perhaps I liked that one a bit more than it had any right to.

I think "Kitten" is a pretty decent movie and a pretty good episode overall.

Ann Margret was a fucking bombshell. Her and Mamie Van Doren are reason enough to watch their respective episodes. The fact that Margret plays a psycho chick is gravy on top. One can only imagine how crazy she'd be in the feathers.

 

[Starscreams Cape]

Looks like people still want more Millenial Science Theater.

 

[RumblyTumbly]

I still vote that the 60s trash movies they riffed are far worse than the roadhouse/drive-in shlock like Manos. If I had to pick the absolute worst film they did, so painful it was hard to riff, by far it goes to Incredibly Strange Creatures who Stopped Living and Became Mixed-Up Zombies. I at least understood the 'plot' of Manos.

One would assume that the worse the movie is, the easier it would be to riff, but the 60s trash movies it is often unclear what the fuck is happening on screen, lines are often hard to understand due to incompetent film making, etc its a wonder MST3k even bothered.

Yeah, In many ways, Manos is the ideal MST3K movie. It has enough of a plot to where you can follow it, and its inept in ways that make it hilarious. It has a unique set up that makes it stand out over other films, its unique in its poor craftsmanship in a way that not many other films are, and it has memorable characters like Torgo and The Master.

For me, if I was in the movie selection process, my standard would be 1) It has to have a story that I can follow with a beginning, middle, and end and 2) It has to be memorable on its own without the riffing, and there is more flexibility with that one as there are many different ways to be memorable, whether that be through its characters, its dialogue, its sheer ineptitude, or its insanity.

Say what you will about the Netflix seasons, but I felt like the movie selection was about as top notch as could be expected.

While the 50s/60s provided some great stuff for them (GAMERA!), it also gave us some drab and terrible films too that are unwatchable even while being riffed. Monster-A-Go-Go is the one that stands out to me the most as just being an incomprehensible mess.

One of the reasons I kind of lean heavily towards favoring the Mike years is that they went for pure colorful and wacky trash. Hobgoblins, The Final Sacrifice, Space Mutiny, Werewolf, Soul Taker, Future War, and so many others are not only more modern, but they are so ridiculous that they make perfect fodder for riffing. It just seemed like a better collection of trash for them to riff on, and it worked wonderfully.

 

[BootlegPopeye]

Looks like people still want more Millenial Science Theater.

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That looks fucking terrible, I can tell just from that picture that it's unfunny.

 

[Starscreams Cape]

That looks fucking terrible, I can tell just from that picture that it's unfunny.

If the $6mm Stretch Goal was "Patton Oswalt admits he murdered his wife", I'd drop a hundo no sweat.