Forced Intergration is as bad as Forced Segregation - Discuss...

Forcing segregation or integration is essentially a way of subsidizing a lifestyle.

imagine a scenario where there are three basic kinds of people, xenophobia, xenophiles, and neutrals. In a free market you would see, if each group is large enough, business catering to each: businesses that deal only with their selected xenophobic clients, xenophiles who only go to businesses that don’t or that explicitly encourage mixed customer bases, and neutrals who are indifferent or perhaps don’t patronize xenophobic businesses but don’t require a business explicitly align with the xenophiles.

in this world, as long as you’re not a small minority (too much so to have your own businesses) in a largely xenophobic world, everybody is better off under this arrangement. Interacting with xenophobes will just anger xenophiles and other groups anyways, both ways. Everybody separates into their own circlejerk. Moreover, you’d see price discrimination to exploit these differences in preference.

With segregation, though, xenophobes wrote legal codes forcing everybody to do business THEIR way and to also get state services delivered THEIR way. Instead of having to pay the price discrimination prices at their Whites only bar, or to pay expensive private school fees for Whites only school, they can force society to bear the cost for them.

or, for a xenophile, they do the opposite, forcing everybody to pay the price of making the environment more diverse, instead of selecting into it and bearing the cost themselves.

Both are rent seeking behaviors. It’d be more efficient to treat discrimination as just another way of differentiating services. The exception is the small minority, large xenophobe population case, where it makes life too difficult for the minority.
 
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Bland Crumbs said:
Things seemed to be going pretty solidly until 2008...What happened then? Something....I cannot remember what...It is almost like some force was mainstreamed into government that undid decades of progress toward equality.
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Are you saying that blaming capitalism for idiot people getting mortgages they couldn't afford, running up massive debt, and then making the taxpayer bail out banks lead to the usual socialist fuckwittery of blaming aforementioned capitalism, and 'let's try marxism again, this time it'll work, honest guv ' wasn't a good idea?

thems huwhite soupremicissy words. I have dox'd you to antifart, expect a bike lock to the head.
Extricate Cavitations said:
I'm going to segregate your cheeks and integrate my pp into you.
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You wish, but wouldn't your gunt get in the way?
737 MAX Stan Account said:
Forcing shit in general doesn't work out. Can't force people to change, kinda how I can't force OP to try harder.
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Or anyone can force you to think past a 3rd grade level
Ughubughughughughughghlug said:
Both are rent seeking behaviors. It’d be more efficient to treat discrimination as just another way of differentiating services. The exception is the small minority, large xenophobe population case, where it makes life too difficult for the minority
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Thems libertarian words... Stop being able to think!
 
I agree honestly, even though I think some amount of integration is required if you want to run a proper empire. Ramming it down people's throats just divides them more and gives them more and more reasons to despise each other. Nothing good comes of it.
 
L50LasPak said:
I agree honestly, even though I think some amount of integration is required if you want to run a proper empire. Ramming it down people's throats just divides them more and gives them more and more reasons to despise each other. Nothing good comes of it.
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this is why I used the word forced. Ugbug made an interesting point about seeing as a 'free market' problem. Perhaps that's a solution, it certainly looks like it might go that way what with Camp Black Hitler trying to start Ungratefulwogtown.
 
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Just Another Apocalypse said:
Your thoughts?
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Forced integration is worse than forced segregation.

The easy lolbertarian take is that force is wrong, but force exist everywhere and is part of daily life. Taxes are backed by force too and many other things are too (vaccinations will be within 10 years).

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Why is forced integration worse than forced segregation?

We know the arguments against segregation, the possible animosity and lack of understanding it breeds. We see now that integration doesn't really improve it. It just makes people fo bowl alone. It socially uproots a population.

I had the rare experience to teach a class every day for just a couple of days across my country for a couple of years. So I saw very different classes.

It very much seemed to confirm putnam's study. The more diverse any school was, the more difficult a class was to unite behind a common purpose. You could the variety of different customs in how kids interacted with each other and how often they misfired. It made me think of Kipling's poem the stranger that says


The men of my own stock,
They may do ill or well,
But they tell the lies I am wanted to,
They are used to the lies I tell;
And we do not need interpreters
When we go to buy or sell.

Segregation has the advantage of people not needing interpreters; of people being united even before thinking about it. I notice the same thing when I hear white muslims talk; the way they approach islam is just different than the way turks do (which is different than the way pakis or moroccans do).

Often people are blind to this, especially if they only know someone who is integrated strongly into their culture. I mean educated muslims in the Netherlands don't admit they want to forbid alcohol unless you really press them on it. They know their position is at odds with Dutch culture and so they hide it. But they'd vote against alcohol, to give one example.

So are these muslims integrated? Integration only really exists with minor minorities. Any group that grows beyond 2% isn't much of a minority anymore. It becomes a voting bloc. An interest group.

Yes, they are integrated when compared to segregation, probably more so than blacks in US, yet they have different destiny, different dreams, different mutual goals. They are not integrated into being culturally similar, they just know which ones to hide until they can be expressed or enforced on others, something every group ever has an interest in (and hiding that desire is an essential part in being given the keys to do so).

I don't think segregation is a solution, particularly not if living nearby. Who wants to be pakistan or india, constantly aiming at each others throat?

But who wants to be pre-pakistan/india? Constantly aiming at each other's throat while living in the same house?

People are sectarian and trying to suppress this can never work for long. It never worked for long in history.
 
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Lemmingwise said:
Forced integration is worse than forced segregation.

The easy lolbertarian take is that force is wrong, but force exist everywhere and is part of daily life. Taxes are backed by force too and many other things are too (vaccinations will be within 10 years).

--

Why is forced integration worse than forced segregation?

We know the arguments against segregation, the possible animosity and lack of understanding it breeds. We see now that integration doesn't really improve it. It just makes people fo bowl alone. It socially uproots a population.

I had the rare experience to teach a class every day for just a couple of days across my country for a couple of years. So I saw very different classes.

It very much seemed to confirm putnam's study. The more diverse any school was, the more difficult a class was to unite behind a common purpose. You could the variety of different customs in how kids interacted with each other and how often they misfired. It made me think of Kipling's poem the stranger that says


The men of my own stock,
They may do ill or well,
But they tell the lies I am wanted to,
They are used to the lies I tell;
And we do not need interpreters
When we go to buy or sell.

Segregation has the advantage of people not needing interpreters; of people being united even before thinking about it. I notice the same thing when I hear white muslims talk; the way they approach islam is just different than the way turks do (which is different than the way pakis or moroccans do).

Often people are blind to this, especially if they only know someone who is integrated strongly into their culture. I mean educated muslims in the Netherlands don't admit they want to forbid alcohol unless you really press them on it. They know their position is at odds with Dutch culture and so they hide it. But they'd vote against alcohol, to give one example.

So are these muslims integrated? Integration only really exists with minor minorities. Any group that grows beyond 2% isn't much of a minority anymore. It becomes a voting bloc. An interest group.

Yes, they are integrated when compared to segregation, probably more so than blacks in US, yet they have different destiny, different dreams, different mutual goals. They are not integrated into being culturally similar, they just know which ones to hide until they can be expressed or enforced on others, something every group ever has an interest in (and hiding that desire is an essential part in being given the keys to do so).

I don't think segregation is a solution, particularly not if living nearby. Who wants to be pakistan or india, constantly aiming at each others throat?

But who wants to be pre-pakistan/india? Constantly aiming at each other's throat while living in the same house?

People are sectarian and trying to suppress this can never work for long. It never worked for long in history.
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Re Putnam, valid point if we're seeing as the 'stylish' diversity of 'oh look I've got a darkie work mate, we've had a drink together, aren't I ghetto?'

However, ims he said that diversity and the problems that go with it can be gotten over (if all parties are willing).

As a child I spent sometime in NYS, I had a black friend and a Jewish friend. When I moved to England, it was only then I really saw bigotry. Because everyone was the fucking same in the socialist nightmare of just post-labour fucking shit up.

But there is the other side of diversity, right? Diversity of thought. If everyone can only think one way, you end up in Marxist death cults like USSR et al.

People will always not get along, look at Ireland. Or any Muslim country. It's like Peoples Front of Judea shit. Even if you believe in the same god, folks will still get into some shirts off, over whether the magic jew meant this or that.

What's the saying? As long as there are two people on the planet, there will be war.

But kudos for quoting Kipling. Way to bring a bit of class to a thread.
 
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Lemmingwise said:
It helps to not have foreign interference, like the marxists or US funding terrorism.
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Marxists and Catholic churches would be the main problem. US funding is just the same as any other super power funding (tho having the better system means you have more money to spend). The IRA collaborated with the Nazis, and most of their Yankee dollar was from thick Irish Americans in Boston. Catholic Church was ok with the IRA doing their do, as well.
 
Just Another Apocalypse said:
Marxists and Catholic churches would be the main problem. US funding is just the same as any other super power funding (tho having the better system means you have more money to spend). The IRA collaborated with the Nazis, and most of their Yankee dollar was from thick Irish Americans in Boston. Catholic Church was ok with the IRA doing their do, as well.
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Look, enemies will attack your division with propaganda. In that case a segregated country is as divided as an integrated one. Diversity is less of a problem while you're in bull market.
When it becomes a bear market is when things become a problem. People are pressed to value less material things.

It's a bit of a modern conundrum, anyways, because being in favor of segregation is a divergent political idea. It's another thing to be divided on. That's why I think we're royally fucked with no easy paths out.
 
Lemmingwise said:
Look, enemies will attack your division with propaganda. In that case a segregated country is as divided as an integrated one. Diversity is less of a problem while you're in bull market.
When it becomes a bear market is when things become a problem. People are pressed to value less material things.

It's a bit of a modern conundrum, anyways, because being in favor of segregation is a divergent political idea. It's another thing to be divided on. That's why I think we're royally fucked with no easy paths out.
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it's not really a modern conundrum, e.g. Cain and Abel. Not that they were real people, but the narrative has been around since... Er well, time in memmorial .

it's ironic to note that the NOI has always had a segregationist stand point. People (of the leftie bent) tend to forget this.

The least worse 'solution' is too have the choice. Strangely enough, the black community who preach 'unity' are also holding their hand out to the government wanting to stay on the teat.

people huh?
 
Just Another Apocalypse said:
But there is the other side of diversity, right? Diversity of thought. If everyone can only think one way, you end up in Marxist death cults like USSR et al.
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They didn't all think one way, that's why they had "death cults" there would be no need to squash dissent if people were all dandy with what was happening.

Just Another Apocalypse said:
People will always not get along, look at Ireland. Or any Muslim country. It's like Peoples Front of Judea shit. Even if you believe in the same god, folks will still get into some shirts off, over whether the magic jew meant this or that.

What's the saying? As long as there are two people on the planet, there will be war.
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I hear this truism so often, but what's the point of it? Yes, there will always be conflict so I suppose creating a situation where everyone is at conflict with everyone else over everything because they don't have something as basic as a common ethnic interest is just par for the course?

With this line of thinking you might as well throw away any guideline or restriction because virtually none of them are 100% effective.
 
Schway said:
They didn't all think one way, that's why they had "death cults" there would be no need to squash dissent if people were all dandy with what was happening
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but that's the point. the idea that if everybody just thinks the same we'll all be happy (whether it be Marxist or Marxist backed religion) leads to offing everyone
Schway said:
With this line of thinking you might as well throw away any guideline or restriction because virtually none of them are 100% effective
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No, with respect that is a rather infantile way of seeing thing s. It's the what's the point of playing if I'm not guarantee d to win.

this isn't the point either, and I think this might be the problem. for a generation (at least) we've been sold a Marxist idea of socialist utopia where no one has to do anything hard, it'll all be playing games and no consequences sex (see fully automated luxury communism).

It's bullshit. the interesting thing is now we have the internet. In my youth shit happened and a handful of news outlets would tell you. And when they stopped telling you, you forgot.

now every person is their own production company WITH JUST A FUCKING PHONE! I remember video cameras were still the size of a brief case 25 year ago, if you want ed the cheap end svhs one (good enough quality for tv).

who knows what it'll be like in the future?
 
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