Tabletop Community Watch

[Inquisitor_BadAss]

I've heard a lot of good things about Thousand Year Old Vampire, especially about how beautiful the actual hardcover book was. I usually prefer PDFs for ease of use but wanted to see what the pricing was since I appreciate well-made books. Well, guess what I found when looking up the creator's website.
View attachment 2257163

Guess someone isn't getting my money not that he wanted it in the first place apparently. Though I imagine the thought of "Drumpftards" and "ebil Republicans" playing his game would send him into a tizzy.

And with the stroke of a few keys Tim Hutchings solved racism and ended all forms of bigotry. Statues were erected in his honour and the poor uneducated masses looked upon them weeping. He finally did it we can ride the front of the bus, go to college and stand equally with our peers.

It was then Tim woke from his afternoon nap. Tim looked on in horror, the detention centres were still open, inner city schools were still underfunded and student loan debt had not been forgiven. He raised his fist to the air screaming “Curse you bigots this is all your fault”.

 

[Loose Goose]

Portland OR

I swear half the raging insane gamers live in that fucking city. What gives?

 

[Moral Decay]

I've heard a lot of good things about Thousand Year Old Vampire, especially about how beautiful the actual hardcover book was. I usually prefer PDFs for ease of use but wanted to see what the pricing was since I appreciate well-made books. Well, guess what I found when looking up the creator's website.
View attachment 2257163

Guess someone isn't getting my money not that he wanted it in the first place apparently. Though I imagine the thought of "Drumpftards" and "ebil Republicans" playing his game would send him into a tizzy.

So, one thing I never really got, here: if you think these people are evil and unjust, doesn't it make more sense to take their money? Would it not do more good to spend their money in the "right" things instead of letting them keep it to spend on "evil" things? It's not like you're selling them weapons or anything that would give them power, it's just a gamebook...

 

[Waifuwars]

So, one thing I never really got, here: if you think these people are evil and unjust, doesn't it make more sense to take their money? Would it not do more good to spend their money in the "right" things instead of letting them keep it to spend on "evil" things? It's not like you're selling them weapons or anything that would give them power, it's just a gamebook...

You're expecting too much. Their logic has reverted to that of children, and children don't think like that. Let's say a kid made a toy they really liked and also had a group of other kids they hated at the playground. They would never ever let any of those children play with their toy, even if you attempted to bribe them because their irrational hatred overrides all other trains of thought. Tim also seems to hate rich people, so I'm assuming the last thing he wants to become is one of 'those people'.

 

[5t3n0g0ph3r]

Preserving this for future reference:

Just in case things go south for Valrak.

 

[Shaka Brah]

Preserving this for future reference:

View attachment 2268747

Maybe he'll downgrade his promise to eating a hat after GW delays or fails to deliver.

 

[LORD IMPERATOR]

When it comes to 40K and the people who typically bitch about how the hobby sucks now, I find it most amusing that an over-abundance of 30-40 year-old fans who have played Warhammer 40K for a decade or two are now complaining that they're no longer the target audience of the hobby. They note that Games Workshop no longer cares about them, when really, GW cared about getting the money from the young twerps from the start.

Most of these fans got into the hobby in their teens or 20s. When they bought their first 40K novel, bought their first pack of Space Marines, Eldar, or Orks, and got into competitive play for the first time. And now that they're in their 30s or 40s, they see the hobby changing its landscape to appeal to a new generation instead of appealing to an older generation that probably doesn't have as much money to burn on hobbies now that they have homes, families, and kids to pay for. Which of course, leads to old players complaining that the hobby no longer appeals to them:

And now, I have a message for old players who feel that way:

The sad truth is, you were never Games Workshop's target audience. Young idiots with money to burn have always been their target audience. The kind of kids who have parents who are willing to indulge their kids paying hundreds of dollars on Fortnite skins or whatever crazy, microtransaction-laden nonsense the kids are into nowadays. They don't want to appease a bunch of old lore fags who obsess over the nuances of 40K lore or want a more defined and balanced ruleset for the tabletop, they want dumb kids who will buy up the Primaris Marines by the truckloads and have them be led by Rowboat Girlyman and his UltraSmurfs.

They don't want adults who will make reasoned purchases based on some extra pocket change they have outside of necessary expenses, like the guy who occasionally spends $20 on an action figure they bump into while shopping for other things. They want the dumb kids who can and will drop $500 on a whole set because their mommies already allowed them to use dad's credit card to pay for hundreds of dollars' worth in online gaming purchases. You were their target audience back when you were young, dumb, and full of disposable greens. Now that you're a responsible member of society who spends most of your money on a house, a family, or a child, they don't want you anymore, they want the dumb kids who have a blank check from their parents.

So yes, they will continue ignoring parts of the lore that they don't like, they will continue appealing to kids through new works and toys, they'll keep pretending like the older Space Marines barely exist, and they will continue to push the Primaris Marines as the mainline Space Marines. They will continue to push 40K into the same direction as any other sci-fi IP, because they smell the green in expanding the audience and getting every little kid to run around with Primaris Space Marine action figures (now available at your local Target, Gamestop, or Wal-Mart) and buying Primaris Marines by the truckloads.

As for the whole "fascists in the 40K community" thing, I don't expect anything to come out of it. Sure, they condemned Arch Warhammer, and they made a public showing for supporting "Diversity", but at the end of the day, if some Neo-Nazi punk shows up with a fistful of cash to buy some Space Marines, your local GW store will appease them and sell him their product. Sure, they may be banned from playing in the store, but nothing's stopping them from playing at their homes with friends, so it's a slap on the wrist. GW wants to make money above all things, not race politics or diversity. That's why they're trying to lure in kiddies in the first place, offering them Space Marines that would make the old lore nuts' Space Marines look like shit in comparison.

 

[Flaming Insignias]

When it comes to 40K and the people who typically bitch about how the hobby sucks now, I find it most amusing that an over-abundance of 30-40 year-old fans who have played Warhammer 40K for a decade or two are now complaining that they're no longer the target audience of the hobby. They note that Games Workshop no longer cares about them, when really, GW cared about getting the money from the young twerps from the start.

Most of these fans got into the hobby in their teens or 20s. When they bought their first 40K novel, bought their first pack of Space Marines, Eldar, or Orks, and got into competitive play for the first time. And now that they're in their 30s or 40s, they see the hobby changing its landscape to appeal to a new generation instead of appealing to an older generation that probably doesn't have as much money to burn on hobbies now that they have homes, families, and kids to pay for. Which of course, leads to old players whining that the hobby no longer appeals to them:

And now, I have a message for old players who feel that way:

The sad truth is, you were never Games Workshop's target audience. Young idiots with money to burn have always been their target audience. The kind of kids who have parents who are willing to indulge their kids paying hundreds of dollars on Fortnite skins or whatever crazy, microtransaction-laden nonsense the kids are into nowadays. They don't want to appease a bunch of old lore fags who obsess over the nuances of 40K lore or want a more defined and balanced ruleset for the tabletop, they want dumb kids who will buy up the Primaris Marines by the truckloads and have them be led by Rowboat Girlyman and his UltraSmurfs.

They don't want adults who will make reasoned purchases based on some extra pocket change they have outside of necessary expenses, like the guy who occasionally spends $20 on an action figure they bump into while shopping for other things. They want the dumb kids who can and will drop $500 on a whole set because their mommies already allowed them to use dad's credit card to pay for hundreds of dollars' worth in online gaming purchases. You were their target audience back when you were young, dumb, and full of disposable greens. Now that you're a responsible member of society who spends most of your money on a house, a family, or a child, they don't want you anymore, they want the dumb kids who have a blank check from their parents.

So yes, they will continue ignoring parts of the lore that they don't like, they will continue appealing to kids through new works and toys, they'll keep pretending like the older Space Marines barely exist, and they will continue to push the Primaris Marines as the mainline Space Marines. They will continue to push 40K into the same direction as any other sci-fi IP, because they smell the green in expanding the audience and getting every little kid to run around with Primaris Space Marine action figures (now available at your local Target, Gamestop, or Wal-Mart) and buying Primaris Marines by the truckloads.

As for the whole "fascists in the 40K community" thing, I don't expect anything to come out of it. Sure, they condemned Arch Warhammer, and they made a public showing for supporting "Diversity", but at the end of the day, if some Neo-Nazi punk shows up with a fistful of cash to buy some Space Marines, your local GW store will appease them and sell him their product. Sure, they may be banned from playing in the store, but nothing's stopping them from playing at their homes with friends, so it's a slap on the wrist. GW wants to make money above all things, not race politics or diversity. That's why they're trying to lure in kiddies in the first place, offering them Space Marines that would make the old lore nuts' Space Marines look like shit in comparison.

The old guard are still the big spenders though, since they tend to have real jobs that can pay for plastic crack. Geedubs is absolutely killing the Golden Goose in the name of potentially gaining favor of a group that doesn't buy shit anyway.

 

[LORD IMPERATOR]

The old guard are still the big spenders though, since they tend to have real jobs that can pay for plastic crack. Geedubs is absolutely killing the Golden Goose in the name of potentially gaining favor of a group that doesn't buy shit anyway.

Not as big spenders as the dumb kids who have mommy's credit card and can pay for large sets of overpriced models the same way they blow money on Fortnite skins. Responsible adults have things like homes, families, and kids of their own to pay for. Kids do not. And as the microtransaction-laden gaming market has shown, parents are rather liberal with their kids spending their cash on things like video games.

Games Workshop wants an audience with a grown-up's wallet, but a kid's imagination. Why else would they be appealing to younger audiences?

The way 40K's Grimdark world works, I thought they'd keep appealing to the older crowd the way comics do-like how most superhero comics appeal to that 30-50 year old crowd of older fans with grimdark comic stories. I thought 40K would have gone the same way that many comic book franchises have gone, to continue appealing to adults while leaving the kids behind to watch cartoon adaptations that aren't part of the main continuity. Imagine my surprise to see GW make a strong push to appeal to the teenage/early 20's block, down to the point where they make a concerted effort to make 40K more casual for newcomers.

I thought that, with a fanbase as old and as loyal as the 40K fandom, especially with a fandom that reads the novels and codexes as if they were holy writ, that GW would stay loyal to them and keep appealing to them, just as DC and Marvel used to do for their fans before the SJW plague. I mean, this is a fandom that is ripe for profit, just as DC and Marvel profited for years, pandering to guys who know decades' worth of lore for comic book characters. Instead, GW seems to be doing everything in their power to alienate the older fans while trying to appeal to newer, younger fans, which surprised me.

While such a youth-oriented approach might make sense for a franchise like say, Star Wars, which was always open to kids, to see GW try to mold a grimdark, Watchmen-esque IP like Warhammer 40K into a standard, Warcraft-style fantasy story of good vs. evil for the kiddies was rather surprising for me-until I saw how much money Fortnite was making from microtransactions, where kids in school will literally shun others who do not have the right skins in-game. Then it all made sense to me: parents nowadays are far more loose with their kids than they were back in the 80s and 90s, and the idea of kids spending hundreds of dollars for a game is no longer a crazy one in today's landscape, which is why GW would make the outreach to appeal to kids.

And so, we reach the modern situation for 40K today: older fans complaining that the game isn't balanced and that the lore doesn't make sense. Older fans continuously getting ignored as GW makes a push to bring in a younger demographic, down to the point where they sell the kiddies new Space Marines that would blow the older fans' Space Marines out of the water in-game. Comics, animations, action figures, and even children's novels-all made to be more sterile and more like a standard fantasy instead of the older 40K lore which was grimdark British satire that was exemplified in Judge Dredd and Watchmen.

Then I look at how the modern video gaming landscape makes so much money from kids paying for in-game purchases, and it all makes sense: GW wants the kiddies to take mommy's wallet or credit card to pay for all this new stuff, while they left the old fans, who complain about the lore problems and balancing issues, behind. The fact that swathes of the older 40K fanbase hold politically incorrect views is another justification GW uses to remove the older fans, except of course, for those older fans willing to pay the price for the miniatures. GW looks better in the eyes of modern society, they can demonize the older fans who hate them as reactionary racists, while appealing to a younger generation that knows little about the meaning of restraint. Seems like a win-win for GW, all things considered.

 

[Corn Flakes]

What a fucking stupid take.

The old guard are still the big spenders though, since they tend to have real jobs that can pay for plastic crack. Geedubs is absolutely killing the Golden Goose in the name of potentially gaining favor of a group that doesn't buy shit anyway.

This. The new kids aren't the ones with stacks upon stacks, entire armies' worth of boxes full of sprues they never got around to assemble. At most this new crowd will buy a few products, pay some semi-talented troon to paint it, maybe play one game to show it off while staring at their cell phone all the time before despite streaminlining 40k games still take forever, and then onto the shelf the models go and into reddit and youtube the "players" go.

Tabletop wargaming is a game for autists. You can't sell that shit to kids with short attention spans.

 

[LORD IMPERATOR]

What a fucking stupid take.

Like it or not, it's the reality of how GW thinks. Whether or not the kids will bite, however, is another discussion entirely.

This. The new kids aren't the ones with stacks upon stacks, entire armies' worth of boxes full of sprues they never got around to assemble. At most this new crowd will buy a few products, pay some semi-talented troon to paint it, maybe play one game to show it off while staring at their cell phone all the time before despite streaminlining 40k games still take forever, and then onto the shelf the models go and into reddit and youtube the "players" go.

Tabletop wargaming is a game for autists. You can't sell that shit to kids with short attention spans.

Depends. GW is making a concerted effort to appeal to the kiddies. But whether or not it will bear fruit is yet to be seen. Especially with tabletop gaming not being as easy to play as an IPAD game.

As for the future, who knows? Maybe GW would get bankrupted and go back to appealing to old lore fags. Or maybe they reach a windfall profit from the kiddies who buy the models that they throw the old lore aside altogether and make a newer, more sterilized lore that takes out the more grimdark aspects of 40K and makes it more like Lord of the Rings or Warcraft.

But considering how GW's profit margins have been rising year by year, it seems that their strategy of appealing to the kiddies is working:

Games Workshop Group PLC, GAW:LSE financials - FT.com

Games Workshop Group PLC (GAW:LSE) financials, including income statements, growth rates, balance sheets and cash flow information.

markets.ft.com

So I don't see them changing gears to appeal to the older fans anytime soon.

 

[IAmNotAlpharius]

Not as big spenders as the dumb kids who have mommy's credit card and can pay for large sets of overpriced models the same way they blow money on Fortnite skins. Responsible adults have things like homes, families, and kids of their own to pay for. Kids do not. And as the microtransaction-laden gaming market has shown, parents are rather liberal with their kids spending their cash on things like video games.

Games Workshop wants an audience with a grown-up's wallet, but a kid's imagination. Why else would they be appealing to younger audiences?

The way 40K's Grimdark world works, I thought they'd keep appealing to the older crowd the way comics do-like how most superhero comics appeal to that 30-50 year old crowd of older fans with grimdark comic stories. I thought 40K would have gone the same way that many comic book franchises have gone, to continue appealing to adults while leaving the kids behind to watch cartoon adaptations that aren't part of the main continuity. Imagine my surprise to see GW make a strong push to appeal to the teenage/early 20's block, down to the point where they make a concerted effort to make 40K more casual for newcomers.

I thought that, with a fanbase as old and as loyal as the 40K fandom, especially with a fandom that reads the novels and codexes as if they were holy writ, that GW would stay loyal to them and keep appealing to them, just as DC and Marvel used to do before the SJW plague. I mean, this is a fandom that is ripe for profit, just as DC and Marvel profited for years, pandering to guys who know decades' worth of lore for comic book characters. Instead, GW seems to be doing everything in their power to alienate the older fans while trying to appeal to newer, younger fans, which surprised me.

While such a youth-oriented approach might make sense for a franchise like say, Star Wars, which was always open to kids, to see GW try to mold a grimdark, Watchmen-esque IP like Warhammer 40K into a standard, Warcraft-style fantasy story of good vs. evil for the kiddies was rather surprising for me-until I saw how much money Fortnite was making from microtransactions, where kids in school will literally shun others who do not have the right skins in-game. Then it all made sense to me: parents nowadays are far more loose with their kids than they were back in the 80s and 90s, and the idea of kids spending hundreds of dollars for a game is no longer a crazy one in today's landscape, which is why GW would make the outreach to appeal to kids.

And so, we reach the modern situation for 40K today: older fans complaining that the game isn't balanced and that the lore doesn't make sense. Older fans continuously getting ignored as GW makes a push to bring in a younger demographic, down to the point where they sell the kiddies new Space Marines that would blow the older fans' Space Marines out of the water in-game. Comics, animations, action figures, and even children's novels-all made to be more sterile and more like a standard fantasy instead of the older 40K lore which was grimdark British satire that was exemplified in Judge Dredd and Watchmen.

Then I look at how the modern video gaming landscape makes so much money from kids paying for in-game purchases, and it all makes sense: GW wants the kiddies to take mommy's wallet or credit card to pay for all this new stuff, while they left the old fans, who complain about the lore problems and balancing issues, behind. The fact that swathes of the older 40K fanbase hold politically incorrect views is another justification GW uses to remove the older fans, except of course, for those older fans willing to pay the price for the miniatures. GW looks better in the eyes of modern society, they can demonize the older fans who hate them as reactionary racists, while appealing to a younger generation that knows little about the meaning of restraint. Seems like a win-win for GW, all things considered.

I agree and disagree. You’re right in that GW caters towards a younger audience, which can be hard for some to admit. Many 40k fans started during 3rd or afterwards and it’s easy to forget how many of the complaints levied towards GW today were also levied back then. 3rd was a major change and it really simplified the rules when compared to 2nd and Rogue Trader. Many back then felt like GW turned their backs on them for a younger audience. If that’s a good or bad thing is a matter of debate. Personally, I’ve come to terms with GW appealing to kids, so I’m not phased one bit. I just paint what I like and don’t touch anything I dislike.

I disagree in regards to the whales. There are kid whales who spend a lot but there are also a lot of adults who pour tons of money into 40k. That’s why Forgeworld exists. Plus a lot of kids who got into 40K had a dad who played older editions too. That’s not always the case but it frequently is.

*edit* it’s really hard to balance between new and old. The thing is the 40k community has a lot of autists and every decision they make will tick someone off. It’s kinda a lose-lose. I’ve also known multiple people who would swear it off only to keep buying new releases when they get a chance. So, that probably factors into their calculations as well. Personally, I think it’s always a good idea to keep your current customers happy and IMO it’s not necessary to throw out the old to attract the new.

 

[Corn Flakes]

Depends. GW is making a concerted effort to appeal to the kiddies. But whether or not it will bear fruit is yet to be seen. Especially with tabletop gaming not being as easy to play as an IPAD game.

But who knows? Maybe GW would get bankrupted and go back to appealing to old lore fags. Or maybe they reach a windfall profit from the kiddies who buy the models that they throw the old lore aside altogether and make a newer, more sterilized lore that takes out the more grimdark aspects of 40K and makes it more like Lord of the Rings or Warcraft.

If you wanted to make the argument that GW is pandering to younger audiences, you should have pointed at the billion and a half videogames they licensed off to different studios these past 10 years or so. That's where the zoomer money is going. And even those never really turned into huge successes. Some of them were good games, possibly even great (Mechanicus, Space Marine), others were serviceable (Vemintide, post-fixes Space Hulk), many were shovelware (too many to list), and a few no one even heard about. But the most important thing is that none of them (except perhaps the Total Warhammers) made a big splash and it's unlikely they earned Games Workshop all that much money.

They have been trying to appeal to a broader crowd with their "young adult" stories, but I'll be shocked if any of these books sold more than 20 thousand copies. Either way, their problem is that they're saddled with two big IPs that just don't have mass market appeal in Current Year. The safe bet would be to try to retain their biggest cash cows (adults with disposable income) while the cultural winds change, but they tried to put the cart before the horse and I personally don't think it'll do them all that much good in the long run.

I disagree in regards to the whales. There are kid whales who spend a lot but there are also a lot of adults who pour tons of money into 40k. That’s why Forgeworld exists. Plus a lot of kids who got into 40K had a dad who played older editions too. That’s not always the case but it frequently is.

The big difference between the Fortnite whales he's talking about and the Warhammer whales is that Fortnite is free to play racks in a lot of money by gradually draining small purchases. 7 bucks here, 10 bucks there, occasionally those 50 bucks grandma gave you for your birthday. That spending falls through the cracks. Meanwhile, the basic starter set for 40k is 50 bucks (assembly required, although it's tool-less). Their recommended starter paint and tool set is 45 bucks. A single box of their shiny Intercessors is 60 bucks.

Fortnite kids can drop in and out and keep playing without having to commit to anything. That makes it easier to make purchases as well. 40k (and Fantasy/Sigmar) require you to commit to what you're doing. There's a bit up-front cost in both time and effort whenever you buy any models before you can actually use them for anything. Those are two completely separate audiences that don't overlap in their spending habits all that much.

 

[LORD IMPERATOR]

I agree and disagree. You’re right in that GW caters towards a younger audience, which can be hard for some to admit. Many 40k fans started during 3rd or afterwards and it’s easy to forget how many of the complaints levied towards GW today were also levied back then. 3rd was a major change and it really simplified the rules when compared to 2Nd and Rogue Trader. Many back then felt like GW turned their backs on them for a younger audience. Personally I’ve come to terms with that so I’m not phased one bit. If that’s a good or bad thing is a matter of debate.

I disagree in regards to the whales. There are kid whales who spend a lot but there are also a lot of adults who pour tons of money into 40k. That’s why Forgeworld exists. Plus a lot of kids who got into 40K had a dad who played older editions too. That’s not always the case but it frequently is.

We're going through another 3rd Edition-style backlash once again. Especially since Warhammer 40K is shifting once more-from a parody/satire of fascism to an old-fashioned good vs. evil fantasy struggle.

I mean, back then, the Space Marines weren't exactly serious. They even made fun of the fact that the SMs could be complete fruit loops:

Then they went all serious in 3rd Edition, and now, they're shifting to a more clean fantasy setting where you have the good guys like the Ultramarines and their Primarch on the one hand, and the evil aliens and Chaos demons on the other. The way they describe the Ultramarines in Warhammer Adventures shows this:

"Sworn defenders of humanity, Space Marines are the ultimate warriors, graced with superhuman speed, strength, and stamina. Genetically-engineered to fight in the countless wars of the 41st Millennium, these towering giants have two hearts, three lungs, and blood that is immune to all known poisons. Organised into Chapters, the Emperor's chainsword-wielding champions are feared and respected throughout the galaxy. Bravest of all are the heroic Ultramarines. Clad in blue and white power-armour, they plunge into battle, risking all to protect the Imperium against the forces of Evil."

Warhammer 40000 - Warhammer Adventures

Warhammer Adventures is a series of stories about brave heroes battling monstrous enemies and winning great victories against impossible odds.

warhammeradventures.com

That's right, they're openly stating that the Space Marines are good and their enemies are evil. Instead of the 3rd Edition lore where the Space Marines and the Imperium are a necessary evil, or the older lore where they're a satire of fascism, the newer books they peddle to kids openly state that the Ultramarines are good, and the people they shoot at are evil.

Meanwhile, this is what one of the 40K lore authors had to say about the Space Marines and GW's penchant for lionizing them:

"To me the background to 40K was always intended to be ironic. The fact that the Space Marines were lauded as heroes within Games Workshop always amused me, because they're brutal, but they're also completely self-deceiving. The whole idea of the Emperor is that you don't know whether he's alive or dead. The whole Imperium might be running on superstition. There's no guarantee that the Emperor is anything other than a corpse with a residual mental ability to direct spacecraft. It's got some parallels with religious beliefs and principles, and I think a lot of that got missed and overwritten."

Rick Priestley, Warhammer 40K lore author and creator, December 2015 interview with Unplugged Games

Blood, dice and darkness: how Warhammer defined gaming for a generation

For decades, Warhammer has been one of the most enduring forces in all of gaming. In an unprecedented in-depth interview, we spoke to its co-creator Rick Priestley about its origins, development an…

web.archive.org

So if anything, this isn't the first time 40K has made a massive lore-shift. It's just that the people who signed on during 3rd Edition are now realizing what the fans of the first and second edition felt when 3rd Edition was rolled out.

Dads getting their kids into the hobby-that could very well be the case for many newcomer audiences. But the fact of the matter remains: GW is no longer interested in appealing to the older crowd, and said crowd is angry for it. GW no longer cares if older fans walk away because of politics or because of lore inconsistencies and unbalanced gameplay. Combine that with their new approach to kids, their open contradiction of 40K lore, changing the story from a grimdark "everyone is evil" future to a "good vs. evil" standard fantasy series where the Imperium, for all its flaws, are the good guys, and the fact that the older fans are openly complaining that GW has ignored them, all points to GW wanting that younger generation of whales in their pockets while ignoring the old lore nuts and players who have been their loyal customers for decades.

And judging by GW's profit margins, their new strategy is working.

If you wanted to make the argument that GW is pandering to younger audiences, you should have pointed at the billion and a half videogames they licensed off to different studios these past 10 years or so. That's where the zoomer money is going. And even those never really turned into huge successes. Some of them were good games, possibly even great (Mechanicus, Space Marine), others were serviceable (Vemintide, post-fixes Space Hulk), many were shovelware (too many to list), and a few no one even heard about. But the most important thing is that none of them (except perhaps the Total Warhammers) made a big splash and it's unlikely they earned Games Workshop all that much money.

They have been trying to appeal to a broader crowd with their "young adult" stories, but I'll be shocked if any of these books sold more than 20 thousand copies. Either way, their problem is that they're saddled with two big IPs that just don't have mass market appeal in Current Year. The safe bet would be to try to retain their biggest cash cows (adults with disposable income) while the cultural winds change, but they tried to put the cart before the horse and I personally don't think it'll do them all that much good in the long run.


The big difference between the Fortnite whales he's talking about and the Warhammer whales is that Fortnite is free to play racks in a lot of money by gradually draining small purchases. 7 bucks here, 10 bucks there, occasionally those 50 bucks grandma gave you for your birthday. That spending falls through the cracks. Meanwhile, the basic starter set for 40k is 50 bucks (assembly required, although it's tool-less). Their recommended starter paint and tool set is 45 bucks. A single box of their shiny Intercessors is 60 bucks.

Fortnite kids can drop in and out and keep playing without having to commit to anything. That makes it easier to make purchases as well. 40k (and Fantasy/Sigmar) require you to commit to what you're doing. There's a bit up-front cost in both time and effort whenever you buy any models before you can actually use them for anything. Those are two completely separate audiences that don't overlap in their spending habits all that much.

The problem with that theory is that ever since 2017, GW's net income and revenue has been on the rise. Instead of sinking the proverbial ship and killing the golden goose, GW's new kid-friendly approach seems to have paid dividends for their shareholders:

Games Workshop Group PLC, GAW:LSE financials - FT.com

Games Workshop Group PLC (GAW:LSE) financials, including income statements, growth rates, balance sheets and cash flow information.

markets.ft.com

For those with too little time to bother clicking on the link, in 2016, Games Workshop's annual revenue was 118.07m. It went on a steady rise, until by the end of 2020, it was 269.7m. Net income for 2016 was 13.5m, and that too rose as the years went by, to the point where by the end of 2020, it was 71.3m.

Which, for a company that's been alienating its older fans since the release of 8th Edition and the Primaris Marines, is bonkers. Their revenue streams should be going down, not up. Yet this kid-friendly approach that has been causing older fans to spit plasma ever since 8th Edition came out has led Games Workshop to reap larger profits year by year, instead of a decline.

There are only two explanations for this:

A) The older fans have Stockholm Syndrome and despite all their complaints about GW alienating them, they keep dumping more and more money into GW's products as the years go by.

or

B) The kid-friendly shit is working and more kids are joining the hobby and spending more and more money on GW products than the past fans have before 8th Edition came out.

So help me out here. I'm totally stumped as to how GW is making even more money while pissing on the older fans, as compared to back then when they were appeasing the old fans. The only explanation I have, outside of older fans having Stockholm Syndrome, is that the kiddies are dumping more and more money into GW's coffers, which means that their attempts at pleasing the kiddie whales have succeeded.

 

[Corn Flakes]

So help me out here. I'm totally stumped as to how GW is making even more money while pissing on the older fans, as compared to back then when they were appeasing the old fans. The only explanation I have, outside of older fans having Stockholm Syndrome, is that the kiddies are dumping more and more money into GW's coffers.

There's your explanation. (I'm being facetious, it's not all Primaris. Just keep reading.)

GW has been deploying new (and expensive) model ranges like crazy, and almost universally the rules coming along with them are very attractive to the people who might not care for the lore but like Winning™. Besides, the lore has always been secondary. They're there to sell overpriced plastic, not lore. A thousand lore videos on youtube don't give GW any income compared to just a couple MiniWarGaming or other gameplay channel videos. Most of the new lorehammer "fans" will never spend a dime on the tabletop, they'll buy the videogames on discount on Steam, maybe buy a couple of Black Library books. Lorehammer is a great gateway drug, but you still need the right whales to actually buy shit.

 

[LORD IMPERATOR]

View attachment 2269427
There's your explanation. (I'm being facetious, it's not all Primaris. Just keep reading.)

GW has been deploying new (and expensive) model ranges like crazy, and almost universally the rules coming along with them are very attractive to the people who might not care for the lore but like Winning™. Besides, the lore has always been secondary. They're there to sell overpriced plastic, not lore. A thousand lore videos on youtube don't give GW any income compared to just a couple MiniWarGaming or other . Most of the new lorehammer "fans" will never spend a dime on the tabletop, they'll buy the videogames on discount on Steam, maybe buy a couple of Black Library books. Lorehammer is a great gateway drug, but you still need the right whales to actually buy shit.

Yes-I know the new models are selling like crack cocaine. The problem is, WHO is buying this new stuff? The old fans have been clear about their distaste for Nu40K, down to the point where some even 3D-print their shit. So I'm trying to figure out which group has been dumping loads of money onto GW, to the point where they're making twice the amount of money that they were making back when they were pleasing the old fandom. And as I said, I've narrowed it down to two possibilities:

A) The older fans have Stockholm Syndrome and despite all their complaints about GW alienating them, they keep dumping more and more money into GW's products as the years go by.

or

B) The kid-friendly shit is working and more kids are joining the hobby and spending more and more money on GW products than the past fans have before 8th Edition came out.

Either we have a 40K fandom filled with kiddie whales who are newcomers dumping all this money, or the old 40K fanbase, for all their talk of not wanting to go with GW's current direction, have been dumping twice as much, if not even more money into GW's coffers despite GW pissing on their faces.

I mean, it's not like what happened to Star Wars where after Last Jedi, the franchise was in serious trouble after they pissed off the fans, so they had to call in Dave Filoni to stabilize things with stuff like Season 7 of Clone Wars, the Mandalorian, and the Bad Batch. GW's current output outright puts newer, younger fans in focus over the older lore nuts and the older players who want a balanced ruleset. And yet they're making even more money than ever before, which means that either the kid-whales are functioning as GW thought they would, or all the old fans who were swearing up and down that they will never support GW's new direction.......are dumping more money in their faces than ever before.

 

[Shaka Brah]

A) The older fans have Stockholm Syndrome and despite all their complaints about GW alienating them, they keep dumping more and more money into GW's products as the years go by.

Whether B is true or not, this is 100% true. Most grognard 40k fans are absolute retard-tier consoomers who will purchase whatever GW shovels down their gobs. I remember army-list assfucking happening even when I first entered the hobby, and that was a long time before Primarines ever were a thought in someone's brain. This is not the first time they've done this.

 

[Corn Flakes]

Yes-I know the new models are selling like crack cocaine. The problem is, WHO is buying this new stuff? The old fans have been clear about their distaste for Nu40K, down to the point where some even 3D-print their shit. So I'm trying to figure out which group has been dumping loads of money onto GW, to the point where they're making twice the amount of money that they were making back when they were pleasing the old fandom. And as I said, I've narrowed it down to two possibilities:

A) The older fans have Stockholm Syndrome and despite all their complaints about GW alienating them, they keep dumping more and more money into GW's products as the years go by.

or

B) The kid-friendly shit is working and more kids are joining the hobby and spending more and more money on GW products than the past fans have before 8th Edition came out.

Either we have a 40K fandom filled with kiddie whales who are newcomers dumping all this money, or the old 40K fanbase, for all their talk of not wanting to go with GW's current direction, have been dumping twice as much, if not even more money into GW's coffers despite GW pissing on their faces.

I mean, it's not like what happened to Star Wars where after Last Jedi, the franchise was in serious trouble, so they had to call in Dave Filoni to stabilize things with stuff like Season 7 of Clone Wars, the Mandalorian, and the Bad Batch. GW's current output outright puts newer, younger fans in focus over the older lore nuts and the older players who want a balanced ruleset. And yet they're making even more money than ever before, which means that either the kid-whales are functioning as GW thought they would, or all the old fans who were swearing up and down that they will never support GW's new direction.......are dumping more money in their faces than ever before.

You're putting too much stock on the people being vocal being relevant in numbers. The third option you missed is right there:

C) Most whales actually playing the game don't give enough of a shit about the lore to stop playing or buying. They just want the latest shinies to win. These are the guys with 5k worth of Spare Marines that they entirely replaced in the past 5 years.

Whether B is true or not, this is 100% true. Most grognard 40k fans are absolute retard-tier consoomers who will purchase whatever GW shovels down their gobs.

There we go. So long as the new shit is better than the old shit, they'll but it.

 

[LORD IMPERATOR]

Whether B is true or not, this is 100% true. Most grognard 40k fans are absolute retard-tier consoomers who will purchase whatever GW shovels down their gobs.

Hmph. I should have figured that there was a reason for GW's lack of a response. I'd have thought 40K fans getting pissed off at GW would have created a sort of response similar to how Lucasfilm was forced to respond to controversies surrounding the Last Jedi, but I suppose there really was a reason GW wasn't responding to all the angry fans-because all that anger was just hot air anyways, and the same fans who curse them out for contradicting the lore or making the hobby more kid-friendly will spend more money on this stuff anyways.

Combine that with kiddie newcomers and with people spending money on other things like action figures, and I suppose GW's in for more windfall profits even as the fans continue to bitch about them.

You're putting too much stock on the people being vocal being relevant in numbers. The third option you missed is right there:

C) Most whales actually playing the game don't give enough of a shit about the lore to stop playing or buying. They just want the latest shinies to win. These are the guys with 5k worth of Spare Marines that they entirely replaced in the past 5 years.

So basically, it's just like Pokemon: the Trading Card Game. They just buy all the shiny crap to roll the competition and win in tournaments. Most of the guys that do that tend to be younger, though. They have all the time in the world for all those tournaments.

Every time I look at 40K fan videos, they always curse out GW, which gave me the impression that the people objecting to them were the majority. It seems that was a mistake. They're just a loud minority, I take it?

 

[You Bastard Guy]

I mean, back then, the Space Marines weren't exactly serious. They even made fun of the fact that the SMs could be complete fruit loops:

I think Warhammer is going to go the same way as Batman. Campy during one period, super-serious the next, and something in between after that.

I quit in my 20s and started playing again just before the ‘ronies killed everybody. I don’t live in the US, so my experience may not be representative, but I don’t see kids going wild with dad’s credit card. I see older guys, young single professionals, and the fringe social misfits that Magic Space Soldiers has always attracted. There are a number of Warhammer stores and a couple of independents in my city, but I can’t remember seeing anyone younger than their mid-20s playing or buying anything.