RPGnet Forums

[NerdShamer]

"No 'my ex is an asshole' stories allowed!"

Oh, and the mods are angry at the ancap thread because the drones grew beyond their programming.

 

[Hugbox Kommissar]

Yeah, please don't drag the rest of the group into your scheme to reconnect with your ex (who sounds like he's pretty well over you lol).

I skimmed that thread and it's about 80% posters talking past each other about "the real definition of capitalism". I don't know why they bother when they can't even get past defining their terms.

 

[Wallace]

I skimmed that thread and it's about 80% posters talking past each other about "the real definition of capitalism". I don't know why they bother when they can't even get past defining their terms.

That's a feature, not a bug. It makes it easier to use a term as a nonce for "good" or "bad", or as a cultural shibboleth or fnord.

 

[Capsaicin Addict]

The best part of that capitalism thread is how the mods managed to fuck themselves again.

The thread was pretty sedate (even if I thought some of the arguments were stupid). Then they warned one guy for a 'general attack on RPG developers'. Then another guy ate a three day ban for reporting the red text (no questioning your betters, peasant).

Then Tanka comes in, declares the thread awful, and locks it while threatening 'there may be more red text coming'. Faggot.

And because clearly the posters aren't buying the deep wisdom of the mods, a trouble ticket thread gets posted asking why it was locked.

So of course that thread gets locked too.

What a pack of fuckwits.

 

[NerdShamer]

The best part of that capitalism thread is how the mods managed to fuck themselves again.

The thread was pretty sedate (even if I thought some of the arguments were stupid). Then they warned one guy for a 'general attack on RPG developers'. Then another guy ate a three day ban for reporting the red text (no questioning your betters, peasant).

Then Tanka comes in, declares the thread awful, and locks it while threatening 'there may be more red text coming'. Faggot.

And because clearly the posters aren't buying the deep wisdom of the mods, a trouble ticket thread gets posted asking why it was locked.

So of course that thread gets locked too.

What a pack of fuckwits.

It looks like being an ancap while also being a consoomer is the latest logic bomb for their mods.

My money is on "These people worked long and hard developing these games and they deserve your eternal support! You can't just insult the industry like this! And no, don't start your own RPG."

 

[MembersSchoolPizza]

It looks like being an ancap while also being a consoomer is the latest logic bomb for their mods.

My money is on "These people worked long and hard developing these games and they deserve your eternal support! You can't just insult the industry like this! And no, don't start your own RPG."

There's long been a blind spot in the RPG community that doesn't view RPG publishing as... "real" work. In fact, a lot of people tend to balk at the concept.

Take TSR - The flagship RPG company. The biggest of the big, the best of the best, the shining city on the hill... A complete, utter, catastrophic failure as a business, because it was run by numpties who didn't know how to run it, didn't know how to negotiate contracts, didn't know how to do market research, how to budget, anything. They had twenteen product lines, a string of employees a million men deep, and family drama fucking up the management side of things.

Now, contrast that with Palladium Books. You can say a lot of bad shit about Kev's little Michigan-based print shop. He's got a reputation for being an egomaniac, he's stiffed artists, he's notoriously shit to write for - often re-writing whole products on his own because he wants them done his way. His house system is so bad it's borderline unplayable as written, and he notoriously doesn't even use it in his own games at cons. He's gotten fucked over by his "employees" at least once. What people kvetch over, though? Palladium Books is still chugging along. Because he's taken the business aspects of the publishing game by the balls.

Anyways, that's kind of getting off track. The point is, a lot of RPGites don't really view RPGs as a business. They have the artist blindspot to their own hobby. It's not really capitalism, to them. It's just... creatives being creative, and creatives should be compensated. The fact that the RPG industry is actually a fairly substantial industry in it's own right these days, and relies on a lot of other industries (publishing, shipping, etc), and all the businesses THOSE businesses rely on, and so on? Doesn't really enter their minds. If you raised the point, they would probably agree that all of those things are needed, but they don't think about it day to day. It's sort of a "food comes from the supermarket" mindset.

 

[NerdShamer]

So, has there ever been a "No true Scotsman" response within the RPG industry? As in, someone makes their own game while whining about how evil capitalism is and publishes it with the intent of making a living...While still complaining about how exploitive the modern economy is and that he's starving because nobody brought their merch.

Because I've seen a few cows who had done this. Either they had an thriving OnlyFans or a Patreon to bring in the cash while being a tankie.

 

[MembersSchoolPizza]

So, has there ever been a "No true Scotsman" response within the RPG industry? As in, someone makes their own game while whining about how evil capitalism is and publishes it with the intent of making a living...While still complaining about how exploitive the modern economy is and that he's starving because nobody brought their merch.

Because I've seen a few cows who had done this. Either they had an thriving OnlyFans or a Patreon to bring in the cash while being a tankie.

Yes. FreeMarket, by Luke Crane.

What's that, you never heard of it? Don't worry. It had a limited print run, I think 200 copies. But he gave the entire thing out for free for a while, so you can probably track a PDF down.

What, that seems strange? Did you miss who made it?

 

[NerdShamer]

Yes. FreeMarket, by Luke Crane.

What's that, you never heard of it? Don't worry. It had a limited print run, I think 200 copies. But he gave the entire thing out for free for a while, so you can probably track a PDF down.

What, that seems strange? Did you miss who made it?

I see that he lost a comfy job a KickStarter as the VP of the tabletop games division. Something about nepotism.

 

[Screw Danlon]

Anyways, that's kind of getting off track. The point is, a lot of RPGites don't really view RPGs as a business. They have the artist blindspot to their own hobby. It's not really capitalism, to them. It's just... creatives being creative, and creatives should be compensated.

To be fair, as a guy who makes board games as a hobby, the aspects of marketing yourself and your product are very different from the aspects of design.

I’m lucky to have friends who do design and marketing stuff who can give me advice. But even then, honestly, one of my friends paid to print a finished copy for me to show me it would be cool, before I could really see it as anything more than just a silly thing I threw together to have fun with friends. It was only after that that I was able to see it as something with a value that people might pay for.

I think a lot of these creatives have that same sort of “I made this, but I don’t know how to get from there. So if I put it out and it’s good, people will find it” mentality. Not that it justifies it per se, but it does make sense to me.

 

[Wallace]

More people being banned for the crime of having the wrong opinion. Whenever I read these, I hear in my mind the voice of the most condescending HR person imaginable. "Reconsider your posting style to be less hostile".

 

[Hugbox Kommissar]

More people being banned for the crime of having the wrong opinion. Whenever I read these, I hear in my mind the voice of the most condescending HR person imaginable. "Reconsider your posting style to be less hostile".

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So more or less the same point that @Screw Danlon made except its worth a ban over there.

Second one is just "wow just wow I can't believe this"

"There are many ways this post is horrible. To start with, sneaking into the United States is illegal, but even more shocking is the fact that you've decided not only is your convivence(sic) more important then following immigration restrictions during a public health emergency, but that you would tell multiple people that you're planning on this. We could go off on how this makes it harder for those of us who have had to wait to enter the US legally, we could have a long discussion about how circumventing immigration law harms us all, or how you being willing to flat out lie to the people around you makes things easier for drug runners and coyotes to make money, but there is little point. We are giving you a bullet to the head."
There, much better.

 

[Screw Danlon]

Talk about ”least charitable interpretations”
Not caring about selling enough to earn a living off something is not “being Bad at Capitalism”.

And saying that the market is flooded doesn’t mean “99% of all designers shouldn’t do work.” These are ostensibly nerds, how do they not understand the basic principle of niche vs mainstream, and that most mainstream consumers aren’t going to spend time investigating the niches?

 

[Wallace]

And saying that the market is flooded doesn’t mean “99% of all designers shouldn’t do work.” These are ostensibly nerds, how do they not understand the basic principle of niche vs mainstream, and that most mainstream consumers aren’t going to spend time investigating the niches?

Because everyone outside of their little koffee klatch is a Trump-voting fascist Nazi, and therefore doesn't count as a person.

 

[Zonga]

"No 'my ex is an asshole' stories allowed!"

Oh, and the mods are angry at the ancap thread because the drones grew beyond their programming.

Did i not call it?

 

[Tactical Wizard]

Yeah, that guy's holding off until he gets the Johnson and Johnson Vaccine. When I got my jab, all they had was the Moderna vaccine to that's what I went with. That shit is his own fault.

Oh, and how did I miss this? If you wanted playable sabbat, you're probably a fascist goon.

 

[kcbbq]

There's long been a blind spot in the RPG community that doesn't view RPG publishing as... "real" work. In fact, a lot of people tend to balk at the concept.

Take TSR - The flagship RPG company. The biggest of the big, the best of the best, the shining city on the hill... A complete, utter, catastrophic failure as a business, because it was run by numpties who didn't know how to run it, didn't know how to negotiate contracts, didn't know how to do market research, how to budget, anything. They had twenteen product lines, a string of employees a million men deep, and family drama fucking up the management side of things.

Now, contrast that with Palladium Books. You can say a lot of bad shit about Kev's little Michigan-based print shop. He's got a reputation for being an egomaniac, he's stiffed artists, he's notoriously shit to write for - often re-writing whole products on his own because he wants them done his way. His house system is so bad it's borderline unplayable as written, and he notoriously doesn't even use it in his own games at cons. He's gotten fucked over by his "employees" at least once. What people kvetch over, though? Palladium Books is still chugging along. Because he's taken the business aspects of the publishing game by the balls.

Anyways, that's kind of getting off track. The point is, a lot of RPGites don't really view RPGs as a business. They have the artist blindspot to their own hobby. It's not really capitalism, to them. It's just... creatives being creative, and creatives should be compensated. The fact that the RPG industry is actually a fairly substantial industry in it's own right these days, and relies on a lot of other industries (publishing, shipping, etc), and all the businesses THOSE businesses rely on, and so on? Doesn't really enter their minds. If you raised the point, they would probably agree that all of those things are needed, but they don't think about it day to day. It's sort of a "food comes from the supermarket" mindset.

TSR was basicly a bunch of hobbyists who didn't have clue one about how to scale properly beyond "have a bunch of the white box ('0th Ed') printed and sell it in the want ads in wargaming newsletters."

There were competent people in the circle, but they mostly had their own gig and most of those loved in the next state over.

It's a testament to the strength of D&D that it managed to limp along so long (and also Star Frontiers and Gamma World, and to a lesser extent Boot Hill and Top Secret).

There was a lack of quality control, though, in the different rpgs they put out, though. I don't think anyone ever managed to make a coherent game out of Petal Throne (and not for a lack of beating that dead horse for decades) or Metamorphosis Alpha.

Man, suddenly I'm all nostalgic over Boot Hill. With a handful of people who really got schlocky early Western movies the game was absolutely magical. Gamma World was fun, but there was a bit of, "Well, this character is unplayable. I'm going to go wander into the wastes for a few minutes and see if I mutate into something useful before I just give up on it."

They were all, normally, more user friendly than non-TSR options. They weren't like Traveller based games where your character could die of old age before managing to escape character creation, even the shitty unmemorable offerings.

It's gotten lost over the years that the rules were just meant to there in the background, and consulted if there was a conflict, and were just modeled on concepts early wargamers could wrap their warped minds around. It's not like now where dice rolls define the game, it was the other way around. If you ever have a chance to play in a game run by any of the few remaining old guard (mostly not D&D at this point because of this), you see just how little importance the dice actually had in their eyes.

It's the outsiders who autistically latched on to rules that turned into the old-timers at places like RPG.net. I know from experience they absolutely hate the style of play Gygax used. There's a reason things like Tomb of Horrors are considered unfair by the rules heavy types. Played in Gygax's style they're insanely fun and reward creativity, by a rigid adherence to the rules they are just punishment, and he did it intentionally.

 

[MembersSchoolPizza]

It's gotten lost over the years that the rules were just meant to there in the background, and consulted if there was a conflict, and were just modeled on concepts early wargamers could wrap their warped minds around. It's not like now where dice rolls define the game, it was the other way around. If you ever have a chance to play in a game run by any of the few remaining old guard (mostly not D&D at this point because of this), you see just how little importance the dice actually had in their eyes.

That's how I was brought in to RPGs in the early 90s. It's still how I prefer to run things. I don't mind rules existing - I'm not, for example, one of these people who decries social rules as anathema. They can be useful. Sometimes there needs to be the ability to say "Yeah, Mr. GM, Sir, I know you say I'm not able to bluff my way past the guard, but I say my 13th level bard fucking can, and you're being unfair. I want to roll it out, at least.". Because even the best GMs occasionally get lost in their own narrative... Being the GM should not just be playing the game with all the cheat codes on. As some people are fond of saying, "if you can't handle the players surprising you and messing up your plans, write a novel, don't GM."

It's the outsiders who autistically latched on to rules that turned into the old-timers at places like RPG.net. I know from experience they absolutely hate the style of play Gygax used. There's a reason things like Tomb of Horrors are considered unfair by the rules heavy types. Played in Gygax's style they're insanely fun and reward creativity, by a rigid adherence to the rules they are just punishment, and he did it intentionally.

Eh. My understanding is that ToH still was unfair, and intentionally so. Even for Gygaxian style play. It was intended to be a grinder, from what I've heard from Grognards who actually played it at old cons and stuff.

 

[kcbbq]

That's how I was brought in to RPGs in the early 90s. It's still how I prefer to run things. I don't mind rules existing - I'm not, for example, one of these people who decries social rules as anathema. They can be useful. Sometimes there needs to be the ability to say "Yeah, Mr. GM, Sir, I know you say I'm not able to bluff my way past the guard, but I say my 13th level bard fucking can, and you're being unfair. I want to roll it out, at least.". Because even the best GMs occasionally get lost in their own narrative... Being the GM should not just be playing the game with all the cheat codes on. As some people are fond of saying, "if you can't handle the players surprising you and messing up your plans, write a novel, don't GM."



Eh. My understanding is that ToH still was unfair, and intentionally so. Even for Gygaxian style play. It was intended to be a grinder, from what I've heard from Grognards who actually played it at old cons and stuff.

Oh, ToH is a grinder, it was for tournament type play to see who got the farthest. But it involved figuring out things like instead of being paranoid and checking every step with a 10' pole as available on the equipment list you needed to jerryrig an 11' pole. It was glorious in its stupidity.

D&D has always broken down at power levels where randomness shouldn't be a factor anymore. You wouldn't go to a brain surgeon who somehow missed your head with his scalpel once every 20 cuts, and that's without taking into account magic.

 

[AnOminous]

More people being banned for the crime of having the wrong opinion. Whenever I read these, I hear in my mind the voice of the most condescending HR person imaginable. "Reconsider your posting style to be less hostile".

I always read these mod texts in the voice of Bill Lumbergh.

These have to be the most insufferable, shitty people alive. I want to kill them irl.