Serious LGBT Discussion

[Hollywood Hulk Hogan]

What do you guys think of onlyfans gay porn stars having sex with ftm while claiming that it's gay sex?

I'd say you probably are gay for even knowing about that.

 

[awoo]

I want attention

 

[Adolphin]

I want attention

You will have as much as you want from the edge of a tall building.

 

[Noir drag freak]

So I was in a chatroom that were talking about gay marriage and gay adoption. The chat room was full of trads and right-wing so you know what they will say. I want to be offended, but it's not worth my time. But I was bothered. It got me thinking about narratives and such.

 

[Kornula]

So I was in a chatroom that were talking about gay marriage and gay adoption. The chat room was full of trads and right-wing so you know what they will say. I want to be offended, but it's not worth my time. But I was bothered. It got me thinking about narratives and such.

What exactly are you thinking about narratives?
Inquiring minds need to know...

 

[Noir drag freak]

What exactly are you thinking about narratives?
Inquiring minds need to know...

One of the things about the culture war is narrative and subjectivity. Those things are relative and personal. There are also the fact that humans are vulnerable. People hate vulnerability. That's why we worship the strong, the beautiful, and intelligent. There are two or three ways to react to those statements. You either try to live up to those ideas, ignore them, or to subvert them. I think that the first one is healthy and the two other sub-optimal.

In my view, Respectability is related to what is perceived as strong, the beautiful, and intelligent. Respectability is also what the non-elite used to gain power. You don't need respectability if you were born into an elite, high-status, and wealthy milieu. You'll always have money to cover your tracks and power to cover your misdeeds. Respectability politics is a way to bargain for power for the middle classes.

Two comments that stood out to me at do with "sin" and gays trying to outdo heterosexuals in respectable living. One commenter told the story about a transsexual that wanted a uterus for the purposes of having an abortion because they know they're living a sinful or unnatural life. This where narrative and subjective comes into play. I feel that the narrative and Christian subjectivity shaped the commenter about the motives of the transsexual's statement.

I'll do the one about gay marriage after work.

 

[UselessIdiot]

What do you guys think of onlyfans gay porn stars having sex with ftm while claiming that it's gay sex?

A lot of gays are delusional leftists, and they probably have convinced themselves that FtMs are "real men", so they somehow see it as gay.

It's not gay though, since sexual orientation is based on biological sex. You'd have to be bisexual on some level to be a gay guy into FtMs; I don't care how "masculine" they look. I'm not sure if these guys are really attracted to FtMs or they're just doing it for woke brownie points and to feel morally smug.

 

[UntimelyDhelmise]

A lot of gays are delusional leftists, and they probably have convinced themselves that FtMs are "real men", so they somehow see it as gay.

It's not gay though, since sexual orientation is based on biological sex. You'd have to be bisexual on some level to be a gay guy into FtMs; I don't care how "masculine" they look. I'm not sure if these guys are really attracted to FtMs or they're just doing it for woke brownie points and to feel morally smug.

99% of the time I guarantee you it's the latter, and if not it's guys who are secretly into pussy and don't want to admit they're bi because bis are among the most hated in alphabet soup circles. Otherwise with gay guys it's all about the dick. Day in, day out, that's all the obsessive types can think about. So the very concept of a dickless "dude" is the most pointless thing in the world (and no, no amount of surgery can even remotely produce the same result as the real thing, a pathetic flab of flesh at most).

 

[Absurdist Laughter]

99% of the time I guarantee you it's the latter, and if not it's guys who are secretly into pussy and don't want to admit they're bi because bis are among the most hated in alphabet soup circles. Otherwise with gay guys it's all about the dick. Day in, day out, that's all the obsessive types can think about. So the very concept of a dickless "dude" is the most pointless thing in the world (and no, no amount of surgery can even remotely produce the same result as the real thing, a pathetic flab of flesh at most).

There is a one percent that would fuck an FTM just because they deserve to be treated as just an object. They'll never be a man and getting banged as if a fleshlight should solidify that. Time for a cold shower. Is this Toxic Masculinity?

 

[Kornula]

One of the things about the culture war is narrative and subjectivity. Those things are relative and personal. There are also the fact that humans are vulnerable. People hate vulnerability. That's why we worship the strong, the beautiful, and intelligent. There are two or three ways to react to those statements. You either try to live up to those ideas, ignore them, or to subvert them. I think that the first one is healthy and the two other sub-optimal.

In my view, Respectability is related to what is perceived as strong, the beautiful, and intelligent. Respectability is also what the non-elite used to gain power. You don't need respectability if you were born into an elite, high-status, and wealthy milieu. You'll always have money to cover your tracks and power to cover your misdeeds. Respectability politics is a way to bargain for power for the middle classes.

Two comments that stood out to me at do with "sin" and gays trying to outdo heterosexuals in respectable living. One commenter told the story about a transsexual that wanted a uterus for the purposes of having an abortion because they know they're living a sinful or unnatural life. This where narrative and subjective comes into play. I feel that the narrative and Christian subjectivity shaped the commenter about the motives of the transsexual's statement.

I'll do the one about gay marriage after work.

Now that is quite a bit to ponder. The story of the Transexual wanting a uterus just to get an abortion is spot on...and totally insane.

 

[Kiwi & Cow]

One of the things about the culture war is narrative and subjectivity. Those things are relative and personal. There are also the fact that humans are vulnerable. People hate vulnerability. That's why we worship the strong, the beautiful, and intelligent. There are two or three ways to react to those statements. You either try to live up to those ideas, ignore them, or to subvert them. I think that the first one is healthy and the two other sub-optimal.

In my view, Respectability is related to what is perceived as strong, the beautiful, and intelligent. Respectability is also what the non-elite used to gain power. You don't need respectability if you were born into an elite, high-status, and wealthy milieu. You'll always have money to cover your tracks and power to cover your misdeeds. Respectability politics is a way to bargain for power for the middle classes.

Two comments that stood out to me at do with "sin" and gays trying to outdo heterosexuals in respectable living. One commenter told the story about a transsexual that wanted a uterus for the purposes of having an abortion because they know they're living a sinful or unnatural life. This where narrative and subjective comes into play. I feel that the narrative and Christian subjectivity shaped the commenter about the motives of the transsexual's statement.

I'll do the one about gay marriage after work.

I never understood the whole ordeal against civil gay marriage.
I agree you're not entitled to be accepted into a church or any other place if you don't follow the rules of that place like if a shop forces you to wear a pair of shoes to go there, then you should do that before entering it then.
But then they could have their marriage elsewhere.

Civil marriage is only there to legally allow gay people to be together it doesn't infrige anyone's freedom as far as I care. I've yet to see a single compelling argument against gay marriage that doesn't rely on religious talking points.

 

[ReturnedHermit]

Now that is quite a bit to ponder. The story of the Transexual wanting a uterus just to get an abortion is spot on...and totally insane.

I'm constantly amazed by little moments like this. The statement is probably just meant to be provocative and edgy, but if you want to take it at face value, you can. If you don't approve of transexuals, though, maybe the best course of action is to take nothing they say at face value. That way you can create a better context for discussion based on action and impact, rather than signal boosting a pretty obvious cry for help.

To me, the "trans community" is as much about sexuality as the "incel community" is. Following the broad strokes of traditionalism and liberalism, you can see that they are both ideologically-driven strategies for dealing with a lack of sexual attention. The incel blames his own lack of traditionally masculine characteristics and the biological imperatives women act on when choosing a partner. They look backward through time at what type of man received the most sexual attention, essentially Chad. The trans community tries to solve the problem with liberalism, seeking novel answers based on current and future technology. They see their lack of success in the traditional dating pool as a lost cause, opting instead to create a new one. They change the context of their "failure as an individual to live up to traditional standards of quality" to a "failure of the culture to benefit from their individual value due to a lack of liberal values."

Sexuality isn't about describing why other people are not attracted to you, or defining why they should be. Sexuality is about what you want from others in a sexual context. I think for these fringe groups they are less concerned with sex than they are with emotional fulfilment from life generally speaking. I'd categorize that as something far larger than just sexuality. One side seems to refuse to change for others let alone listen to them earnestly, while the other side changes too much and without discretion. A classic problem with a fresh coat of paint.

Anyways, the point is I wish we would talk about sexuality as desire rather than being desired. It seems so insecure to frame your entire existence as a striving to be what other people want. Normal people have wants, maybe the first step towards being attractive to normal people is to also have wants.

 

[Banditotron]

Every day I hate trans people more and more.

 

[Get The Gerbil]

These may not be the deep, thunk-provoking thoughts this thread is looking for but they are my thoughts.

I support LGBT people having rights. You want to be called a woman and cut your dick off? Fine by me. You think you're an androgynous, sexless person and want to be referred to as they/them? Go for it. Life is too short and complicated to be worried about what two consenting adults do in their own bedrooms and what complete strangers do to their genitals. It is of no concern to me, I have bigger fish to fry than what some random online wants to be called or who someone wants to fuck.

The community though? Too much infighting and a good chunk of them need to learn how to keep their pup and bondage gear in their rooms and off the streets, and pointing these issues out as a cisgender heterosexual makes most of them MATI. You do not have to be part of a community to see the problems within and want to see it get better. I'm noticing a trend of hypersexuality, and it's harming those of us that just want to live a normal life without being harassed. As much as they irk me, I can't help but be sympathetic towards them and feel they need a lot of therapy.

Also makes no goddamn sense to get offended by people online using homophobic, transphobic slurs while in the same breath wishing for all cishets to die in a fire. Idk, I expect someone to have much thicker skin if they're publicly saying they hate all cishets and want them to become An hero.

TL;DR: I don't have the energy to care what you do to your genitals or whose faces you're rubbing them in, just don't be a twat to other people and don't parade bondage gear down the street.

Edit: Added a few more thoughts.

 

[Noir drag freak]

I never understood the whole ordeal against civil gay marriage.
I agree you're not entitled to be accepted into a church or any other place if you don't follow the rules of that place like if a shop forces you to wear a pair of shoes to go there, then you should do that before entering it then.
But then they could have their marriage elsewhere.

Civil marriage is only there to legally allow gay people to be together it doesn't infrige anyone's freedom as far as I care. I've yet to see a single compelling argument against gay marriage that doesn't rely on religious talking points.

This leads me to my next thought. One of the commenters made an observation about how some gays view marriages. The comment stood out to me for the following of reasons. It had to do with respectability and inferiority complex. The statement was along the lines that some in the LGBT community fetishize the ideal of "nuclear family" living in suburbia with a white picket fence. Along with fetishization, that some used that lifestyle as a form of revenge. Revenge in the way that probably signals an inferiority complex. Like, "Just because I'm a homosexual doesn't mean that I can't beat you in living a normal lifestyle."

While you or I may or may not agree with the points of the commenter. I do think that they bring up some important issues. To be honest, I was never for gay marriage despite being a homosexual/sodomite. I thought that marriage came with too much religious & historical baggage. Marriage should be left to the cultural and religious institutions. With the government handing couples civil partnerships.

When I brought up that argument with other gay men, most of the arguments was based on wanting a form of respect that the title marriage brings. They wanted to be validated. They wanted the government seal that their relationships are just as morally good as straight couples. That sentiment suggests that there is probably a hint of an inferiority complex. But you can't compare homosexual and heterosexual relationships due biological differences between men and women. I hate to point this out. But I do think that there are some homosexuals and probably transsexuals that have an inferiority complex to straight people.

The fact is that the primary objective reason that people have sex is to procreate. In addition to the fact that three of the ways that a man's masculinity is measured by sexual prowess with women, siring sons, and providing for a family. A homosexual man would not be able to fulfill those requirements due to lack of ability or desire. I think that's why some gay men are harsh or resentful of bisexual men. A bisexual would still have problems, but an easier time than a homosexual.

This leads us to what I was saying about narrative, subjectivity, and human vulnerability. Since most members of the LGBT community can't live up to the ideal due constraints. We're often left with three choices. We could try to live up to them, ignore them, or subvert them. Three choices that make for complicated paths. Whether we like to admit it or not, same-sex desire, especially exclusive same-sex desire, is our vulnerability. We can try to mask with pride or shame, but it's still there.

In my opinion, the push for same-sex marriage had to do with Respectability. Not comparing homosexuals to non-whites, but the push was rooted in the same drive that non-whites have to become superior to whites. W.E.B. Du Bois mentioned in "The Soul of Black Folks" that in elementary school that he strove for academic excellence. He wanted to prove that blacks was just as good as whites. (I know this is kiwifarms. So stay on topic.) So when I heard the commenter's thought I had a sense of deja vu.

This probably leads into narratives. But I don't feel like going into that.

 

[Alexander Thaut]

Sure, I believe in LGBT rights.

Spoiler: The right to. . .

Lets
Go
Bomb
Tel-Aviv

But really, I'm tired of the performatively woke pushing this shit into my face. Yes, I can appreciate LGBT entertainers without them making it sexualized. No, I'm no supporting whatever modern dicksucker you got up there. I'll enjoy who I enjoy at my own discretion and I'm so tired of watching LGBT shit infect children's entertainment. Like all those twitterites who celebrated a fucking Blues Clues episode on the LGBT shit.

Like, come on. There's no excuse for this.

 

[Real Gay Autist]

I'm noticing a trend of hypersexuality, and it's harming those of us that just want to live a normal life without being harassed. As much as they irk me, I can't help but be sympathetic towards them and feel they need a lot of therapy.

A lot of gays share parts of this opinion, including me. The reason I value this thread is because it's one of the few places gays like me with dissenting, nuanced or otherwise non-mainstream views can have an open conversation.

Fundamentally I think there is something unbalanced about men having sex with men: since men just want to fuck all the time, it's not exactly a basis for stable relationships or community. As a gay man, you can get sex on tap anytime: as long as you don't live way out in the sticks and are not too fussy, you can just load up Grindr and hookup with someone within 45 minutes. Over time, just getting your dick sucked or whatever gets boring. This turns guys into 'try-sexuals', always trying to get their rocks off in a new or unusual way so that they can get a hit of sexual thrill for which vanilla sex no longer suffices. That's one of the reasons why you have guys in their late teens who start off naive and normal and then go through a 'delayed adolescence' of sexual experimentation in their 20s. By the time they reach 'gay death' at 30, they have had sex with 50+ guys, zero relationship experience, a fucked-up attachment style, a narcissistic fixation with their own bodies, a load of unresolved issues etc. I've seen it in many of my friends and it really makes me hurt for them.

When I brought up that argument with other gay men, most of the arguments was based on wanting a form of respect that the title marriage brings. They wanted to be validated. They wanted the government seal that their relationships are just as morally good as straight couples. That sentiment suggests that there is probably a hint of an inferiority complex.

There are so many gay family LARPers out there. I hate to see it. A church wedding, a neat little house with the picket fence, 2.5 perfect children artificially conceived with some poor Ukrainian surrogate mother. Of course they're vegetarian and super-ethical too. Like, what do you have to prove? From my perspective homosexuality is inherently narcissistic so it's not surprising that gays get super-identified with this kind of idealized persona.

I wonder how many of those Perfect Gay Dads are like 'daddy is going to dinner with friends' and then go to a crazy chemsex fisting orgy. Kinda like that gay dad who was arrested for child porn charges in this thread (onion).

The fact is that the primary objective reason that people have sex is to procreate. In addition to the fact that three of the ways that a man's masculinity is measured by sexual prowess with women, siring sons, and providing for a family. A homosexual man would not be able to fulfill those requirements due to lack of ability or desire. I think that's why some gay men are harsh or resentful of bisexual men. A bisexual would still have problems, but an easier time than a homosexual.

This leads us to what I was saying about narrative, subjectivity, and human vulnerability. Since most members of the LGBT community can't live up to the ideal due constraints. We're often left with three choices. We could try to live up to them, ignore them, or subvert them. Three choices that make for complicated paths. Whether we like to admit it or not, same-sex desire, especially exclusive same-sex desire, is our vulnerability. We can try to mask with pride or shame, but it's still there.

You've hit on something really important there and it's put into words a lot of frustration I've been feeling recently. I definitely regret being gay because, for me personally, it doesn't feel 'natural'. Straight couples settling down and having kids have a sort of biologically, culturally, historically, hormonally balanced groundedness available to them. This is simply not available for gays. As a faggot, what choices to I have? Try to live up to those norms through the gay marriage LARP, be some kind of isolated person who ignores the world around him, start some super-reactive queer intifada...?!?! I feel like I dodged a huge bullet by meeting my partner, otherwise I would have been like many of my friends who got eaten up and chewed out by a gay scene.

 

[Noir drag freak]

There are so many gay family LARPers out there. I hate to see it. A church wedding, a neat little house with the picket fence, 2.5 perfect children artificially conceived with some poor Ukrainian surrogate mother. Of course they're vegetarian and super-ethical too. Like, what do you have to prove? From my perspective homosexuality is inherently narcissistic so it's not surprising that gays get super-identified with this kind of idealized persona.

I wonder how many of those Perfect Gay Dads are like 'daddy is going to dinner with friends' and then go to a crazy chemsex fisting orgy. Kinda like that gay dad who was arrested for child porn charges in this thread (onion).

Yeah, I cringe when gay men use surrogacy. But that's another topic. But I do think it has to do with inferiority complex or not feeling vulnerable. They want to appear as strong and capable as straight people. But homosexual couples shouldn't have to mimic heterosexuals to feel some once of self-regard.

Straight couples settling down and having kids have a sort of biologically, culturally, historically, hormonally balanced groundedness available to them. This is simply not available for gays. As a faggot, what choices to I have? Try to live up to those norms through the gay marriage LARP, be some kind of isolated person who ignores the world around him, start some super-reactive queer intifada...?!?! I feel like I dodged a huge bullet by meeting my partner, otherwise I would have been like many of my friends who got eaten up and chewed out by a gay scene.

You're well-read I take it. So you're aware that there is a degree of social construction when it comes to homosexuality ? Homosexuality was defined in different ways throughout the ages. So there are different models of homosexuality out there. In fact, the notion of homosexuality and heterosexuality were invented in the 19th century. This is where narratives and subjectivity comes into play. If different ages and places were able to construct a sexual/cultural framework, why can't we? If people can create their own pronouns, why can't people create a different sexual framework or culture ? Wouldn't it be possible to create a new narrative and subjectivity of what it means to have same-sex desire? I mean the culture of same-sex desire did transform in the 20th century so why can't it change again?

You've hit on something really important there and it's put into words a lot of frustration I've been feeling recently. I definitely regret being gay because, for me personally, it doesn't feel 'natural'.

I don't know what to say to that. It's your personal feelings, whether I like it or not. However, I hate the whole "poor is me" attitude that gay men have. If you regret being gay so much why don't you date women? I hope you don't take it personally. I respect you and your feelings. But I am tired of this narrative that being gay is some sad, painful, and lonely life.

For me, I don't want to feel sorry for myself just because I experience same-sex desire. I guess that's because I hate vulnerability in some ways. Nor do I want my SSD to limit my right to autonomy and self-determinism. So I'm hoping that there more than three ways to deals with it. One that includes people right to live a heterosexual lifestyle.

 

[Real Gay Autist]

You're well-read I take it. So you're aware that there is a degree of social construction when it comes to homosexuality ? Homosexuality was defined in different ways throughout the ages. So there are different models of homosexuality out there. In fact, the notion of homosexuality and heterosexuality were invented in the 19th century. This is where narratives and subjectivity comes into play. If different ages and places were able to construct a sexual/cultural framework, why can't we? If people can create their own pronouns, why can't people create a different sexual framework or culture ? Wouldn't it be possible to create a new narrative and subjectivity of what it means to have same-sex desire? I mean the culture of same-sex desire did transform in the 20th century so why can't it change again?

Yes, I hear what you're saying and broadly agree; it reminds me of the Foucault paper that you linked earlier in the thread, actually. You made a helpful generalization of 'three options' (support, ignore, rebel) in response to the dominant sexual/cultural framework. Perhaps all my comment is saying (and it is, I admit, a trivial thing to say) is that none of the current responses to those three options (gay marriage LARP, gaycel, Born This Way) seem comfortable to me. My compromise, personally, is to be secure in my own subjectivity and narrative of what it means to have same-sex desire. Ultimately, though, this feels unsatisfactory and stunted: a fully-formed person displays social interest (at least, if you believe Adler) and to not be able to reconcile ones sexuality with the social world strikes me sometimes as solipsistic and painful.

I don't know what to say to that. It's your personal feelings, whether I like it or not. However, I hate the whole "poor is me" attitude that gay men have. If you regret being gay so much why don't you date women? I hope you don't take it personally. I respect you and your feelings. But I am tired of this narrative that being gay is some sad, painful, and lonely life.

Yes, you're right: those feelings are very much colored by my personal experience and I'd be very hesitant to apply them across the board. I didn't mean to play into that narrative of being gay as sad, painful, lonely - I understand my comment reads like that, though. FWIW I tried 'being straight' and dating women for a number of years which was a total disaster.

I often think for a lot of people their sexuality involves strong reaction formations from certain features of early childhood (not necessarily negative). This is uncontroversial but, somehow, to apply that way of thinking to homosexuality is taboo. That annoys me, but it's a somewhat niche annoyance to have. Thanks for challenging my post; it's actually made me reflect on some things that I've written and, while it'd be too autistic for me to lay it all out here, that's very helpful.

 

[Noir drag freak]

Thank you for the push back. If you have anymore thoughts, I would love to hear them. I want to flesh out my thoughts some more.

Yes, I hear what you're saying and broadly agree; it reminds me of the Foucault paper that you linked earlier in the thread, actually. You made a helpful generalization of 'three options' (support, ignore, rebel) in response to the dominant sexual/cultural framework. Perhaps all my comment is saying (and it is, I admit, a trivial thing to say) is that none of the current responses to those three options (gay marriage LARP, gaycel, Born This Way) seem comfortable to me. My compromise, personally, is to be secure in my own subjectivity and narrative of what it means to have same-sex desire.

This sounds fair enough. You're strategy for living sounds well. But does it have to be a compromise? Why do our choices have to be limited?

Ultimately, though, this feels unsatisfactory and stunted: a fully-formed person displays social interest (at least, if you believe Adler) and to not be able to reconcile ones sexuality with the social world strikes me sometimes as solipsistic and painful.

Also a fair, but couldn't you say that one is always at odds with social world in some way or another? The best one can do is make negotiations and com promises?

Yes, you're right: those feelings are very much colored by my personal experience and I'd be very hesitant to apply them across the board. I didn't mean to play into that narrative of being gay as sad, painful, lonely - I understand my comment reads like that, though. FWIW I tried 'being straight' and dating women for a number of years which was a total disaster.

I often think for a lot of people their sexuality involves strong reaction formations from certain features of early childhood (not necessarily negative). This is uncontroversial but, somehow, to apply that way of thinking to homosexuality is taboo. That annoys me, but it's a somewhat niche annoyance to have. Thanks for challenging my post; it's actually made me reflect on some things that I've written and, while it'd be too autistic for me to lay it all out here, that's very helpful.

I'm sorry about failed relationships with women. You can also try again. I know women these days have a fetish for converting gay men.