Incel and Lonely Men Debate thread - Defend men giving up or tell them otherwise

[RMQualtrough]

IDK why, but this comment reminded me of this character from Quake III: Arena.

I seriously doubt women who are worth pursuing would be found at parties.

Need to add a caveat that the parents should teach their kids to stand up for themselves if their neighbors are bullies or sleazeballs.

Exactly as I planned.

With the exception of victims of groom/bride kidnapping that is.

Only shit people go to parties? Lmao.

 

[Knight of the Rope]

I seriously doubt women who are worth pursuing would be found at parties.

I'd give you a semper for that if I could man. That's the best laugh I've had today, even with all of the funny posts in the Chris-chan incest thread.

 

[Ser Prize]

Alright. Time for an effortpost.

Incels™ (with a capital I and a trademark symbol) are a cult. I mean that in a 100% literal sense. They have their own saints, their own jargon, their own purity tests, they disown/punish apostates (just look at how they react to incels who eventually escape/have sex), and most importantly, they prey on lonely people. I feel like most people don't understand this about cults. Cults don't target stupid people, or evil people, they target LONELY PEOPLE. And incels (lowercase I) are lonely people almost by definition. Some have male friends and hobbies and jobs, but many of the same factors that contribute to their inceldom make this less likely than average.

So imagine a man, let's say around 25. He feels like he's doing pretty well in life, for the most part. He's a working professional, no supermodel but not bad looking, doesn't go out and party but has a few close friends. But he's never been able to get a girl to give him the time of day. All of his friends and coworkers have girlfriends, some are married, and some might even have kids. And he thinks to himself, "Y'know, I did all the stuff society said I was supposed to do. I went to college, got a good job, got friends, got hobbies, exercised, put myself out there, but ladies still won't talk to me. What's up with that?" This self-perception that they've done the "right things" is often false, but not always. This is another thing that I think people overlook. If we believe in allowing people to date or not date whoever they want (and I do), that means you can do everything "right" and still lose. Lack of success does not prove lack of effort.

We don't live in a just world. Your ability to get a girlfriend has nothing to do with your moral character, and women aren't avoiding certain men because they can "just tell" he's a bad person. Crack addicts and chronic abusers have girlfriends. I'm not saying women ONLY like jerks, far from it, I'm just saying that being an upstanding citizen is demonstrably not a requirement. And when you look at those people and think to yourself "I may not be perfect, but I'm not worse than THAT, and yet I'm still alone", it can sting pretty bad.

Not only that, but there's a strong argument to be made that women have most of the advantages in modern gender dynamics, both legally and socially. Legally, a woman can leave you at any time, and take the kids and half your shit, plus alimony/child support. She gets bored of you in ten years? Tough shit buddy, should've been born psychic. Women can also call sexual harassment over anything or nothing. Actually manage to have sex and she regrets it afterward? Made a slightly off color joke that your female coworker took offense to? The large majority of the time the world and courts will Listen and Believe, and your life is over. Now, of course, most women aren't psychopaths. But when you're a massive fucking sperg who can barely exist in the same room as a woman, it's not always easy to tell, and you start to ask yourself if it's really worth the risk of getting #MeToo'd.

Socially, there are far more men looking for women than the other way around (which seems odd given human gender ratios, but here we are). All a woman has to do to get a date is exist and not be fat. A man has to have all the things I mentioned about concerning jobs and hobbies and friends, and that's the BARE MINIMUM expectation. I've seen men say "I've got all the things society told me to get in order to be attractive to women" only to be met with "So does everybody else, what else you got?" And while I know what the questioner MEANS, it's incredibly demoralizing to feel like Lucy just pulled the damn football away again.

And if you're autistic enough to say any of this OUT LOUD, oh God, the snap backs. "REEEEEEEEEEEEEEE YOU THINK YOU'RE ENTITLED TO WOMEN'S BODIES! NOBODY OWES YOU SEX! IF YOU REALLY TRIED YOU COULD GET A GIRLFRIEND! IF YOU WERE A BETTER PERSON WOMEN WOULDN'T HATE YOU! IT'S ALL YOUR FAULT! WOMEN DID NOTHING WRONG! REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!"

This is not hypothetical, I've seen exactly this kind of response to men merely asking what else they're supposed to do to get women to like them. The Incel™ community, on the other hand, responds "Actually, we noticed that too... sounds like you've had some pretty shitty treatment. Hey, do you have a moment to talk about Our Lord and Savior Elliot Rodger?" And another incel becomes an Incel™.

Now you may be thinking, "But Mr. Pants, you're not describing an average incel. This hypothetical person sounds almost like a borderline normie with a touch of the 'tism." Well, you're right. I'm describing nearly a best case scenario incel. Now imagine how much easier it is to fall into Inceldom when you're a NEET living in your parents' basement.

One last side note. 99% of the time, Inceldom™ (and to some degree, inceldom) is NOT about lack of sex. It's about lack of relationship. This is why incels don't see any point in going to a hooker. They don't want someone to fuck them, they want someone to love them. When incels become Incels™, this manifests in extremely unhealthy and sometimes even violent ways, but the core issue is the same.

Loneliness wears you down, and eventually the things that might've sounded crazy at first eventually start to sound less crazy. After all, they say that insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.

You'd think that'd be obvious to people who say "Just get a hooker lol". Good post, Coop.

 

[Ughubughughughughughghlug]

One last side note. 99% of the time, Inceldom™ (and to some degree, inceldom) is NOT about lack of sex. It's about lack of relationship. This is why incels don't see any point in going to a hooker. They don't want someone to fuck them, they want someone to love them. When incels become Incels™, this manifests in extremely unhealthy and sometimes even violent ways, but the core issue is the same.

Loneliness wears you down, and eventually the things that might've sounded crazy at first eventually start to sound less crazy. After all, they say that insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.

I can't stand how lazy people are that they always miss this point. The sex is, to an incel, the trophy that validates them as Truly Being Loved. It can then become an obsession in its own right, and maybe calling themselves "involuntary celibates" is bad marketing, but the main point is the seduction, not the sex.

If we lived in a society that still made a big deal out of courtly love bullshit you'd still have Incels, except they'd be bitching about what a whore Stacey is that she gives her scarf to every man except him.

 

[Cyclonus]

The stupidest thing I've ever heard an incel say is that the double standard of men has lots of sex=stud, women have lots of sex=slut is justified because it's hard for men to get sex so it's an accomplishment while women can have sex whenever they want so it's OK to shame them for their lack of self control. That may be the case, but do you want it to be that way? You are literally perpetuating the problem that made you an incel. Talk about a self fulfilling prophesy.

 

[LurkTrawl]

Do femcels exist?

Women who get pissed at attractive depictions of women in media (comics, television, etc) imo are the female version of incels who get pissed off at 'chads'. It's the same kind of envy, I think.

Also femcels absolutely exist just like incels do. Incels like to think that* any woman can get a man, but ironically prove this is incorrect by the very fact that there's plenty of women they themselves wouldn't fuck/have a relationship with. Georgia "Stinky" Dickerson comes to mind.
*Edited out sounding like Foghorn Leghorn

 

[Cyclonus]

Femcels exist, but they're rarer than incels. Only truly ugly women would be unable to get sex, whereas incels can be average looking or even handsome but with crippling shyness.

 

[Lord of the Large Pants]

The stupidest thing I've ever heard an incel say is that the double standard of men has lots of sex=stud, women have lots of sex=slut is justified because it's hard for men to get sex so it's an accomplishment while women can have sex whenever they want so it's OK to shame them for their lack of self control. That may be the case, but do you want it to be that way? You are literally perpetating the problem that made you an incel. Talk about a self fulfilling prophesy.

A key that can open many locks is a good key. A lock that can be opened by many keys is a bad lock.

... is the retarded analogy they normally use.

 

[Neo-Liberal Bugman]

A key that can open many locks is a good key. A lock that can be opened by many keys is a bad lock.

... is the retarded analogy they normally use.

The key takeaway imo is that promiscuity from both sexes is a very bad thing.

 

[LurkTrawl]

The key takeaway imo is that promiscuity from both sexes is a very bad thing.

"What do you mean I have to take this pill for two weeks? I want it to stop burning when I pee right now!"

 

[Lemmingwise]

The stupidest thing I've ever heard an incel say is that the double standard of men has lots of sex=stud, women have lots of sex=slut is justified because it's hard for men to get sex so it's an accomplishment while women can have sex whenever they want so it's OK to shame them for their lack of self control. That may be the case, but do you want it to be that way? You are literally perpetuating the problem that made you an incel. Talk about a self fulfilling prophesy.

There's obviously a little more to it than that. Anyone could rent a prostitute.

There is some mix of unrealistic expectations and demands on the side of inceld and also some mix of non-incels being unrealistic about their plight and the state of coupling for a subsection of the male population.

 

[ClownBrew]

I just saw a documentary about dudes who have full-time relationships with realdolls. Perfectly happy that way and zero rage. Food for thought right there.

 

[ReturnedHermit]

1950: birth control
2050: horny control
The really fascinating thing about developing a cure to inceldom is just how many options are on the table. If getting pregnant sometimes as a consequence of sex was an integral part of a woman's identity up until the pill, we should be able to create a similar situation for men. The upside of sexual control has always been the primary selling point, hasn't it? I think the male solution will be further upstream: no sexual urges whatsoever, no women are wonderful effect, no desire to protecc. Couple that with a few legislative and propaganda nudges to prevent ingraining certain behaviors in young boys before the medication is safe to use. Top it off with inclusion of sex-free men as a protected class under the civil rights act to incentivize buy-in for those already conditioned by libido. Women have been given very powerful tools regarding whether or not you get to have sex or have children. Something equally powerful, without undermining those tools, is the ideal solution. For a man to be able to look at any woman and feel nothing meets this criteria. For the incels it is the perfect revenge fantasy, while for the rest of us it is a reprieve from all the simping and thirsting embarrassing an entire gender.

I do have a question, though. Why is it that people refer to incels as a type of person rather than a disorder or difficiency a person can have? To me, the label implies the person is only an incel and has no other relevant characteristics.

 

[Mexican_Wizard_711]

These types really need go outside and touch grass

 

[HumanHive]

The only cure for inceldom is death or being sent to a monestary.
If you are not married by age 25 then you clearly are not fit for normal society and will inevitably be a danger to those around you.

 

[Don't Tread on Me]

I am not an incel. I have had plenty of sex. But I am blackpilled at this point. By that I mean I have given up on women because I do not think they can give me what I want: a happy child and a long lasting partnership.

Not going to PL too much here but my entire life has been surrounded by broken relationships. I have a big family and literally only two couples in the generation before mine stayed together, while every divorce was nasty, drawn out and expensive.

I was in a liberal arts grad program with a bunch of women who were all late 20s. None of them married. None of them with kids. Most of them claimed to not want kids.

In my opinion, women are not incentivized to monogamy. If your instincts guide you to maximize resources using your body, and you can have a child with one man and then divorce him and use your body to lure another, why would you choose to stay with the first man? You only get half as much money.

Women are not predisposed to loyalty from an evolutionary perspective. If their mates were killed in battle and they remained loyal, they were killed. If they instead offered themselves to the victor, they were spared. Being flexible about your partner is likely baked into female DNA at this point.

And its not like finding the right partner is free either. It takes time and money to find a girl, charm her, take her out and determine if she's even right for you. So looking, with no guarantee you will ever find one is worse than just not looking at all.

And even if I did find a woman, what good would it do me? She will have debt because they all went to school. She will want to work. If she works and I work, theres no kid. Or the kid is being raised by someone totally different. And when she gets pregnant and has to take time off work, her debt wont pause. Then I'm paying two debts on one income. Not worth it at all.

 

[Linkin Park]

I just saw a documentary about dudes who have full-time relationships with realdolls. Perfectly happy that way and zero rage. Food for thought right there.

There are guys like that on YT. This one is a legend

 

[Lemmingwise]

In my opinion, women are not incentivized to monogamy. If your instincts guide you to maximize resources using your body, and you can have a child with one man and then divorce him and use your body to lure another, why would you choose to stay with the first man? You only get half as much money.

Women are not predisposed to loyalty from an evolutionary perspective. If their mates were killed in battle and they remained loyal, they were killed. If they instead offered themselves to the victor, they were spared. Being flexible about your partner is likely baked into female DNA at this point

This is such self-defeating nonsense. No shit women don't remain loyal to their dead partner. Why would you even want her to? She's helping your kids survive too with this strategy.

And yes, we have slut programming in most media. But it' not jsut that, the legal system and gov is set up for it too to undermine it. So what? You going to lay in your grave and perish like a dog? People in different ages were drafted for war, or gangpressed into serving on a ship. Literally just get a people stinking drunk, they wake up on a ship and they have to serve if they want to get home. That shit was legal.

And women with children pretty much kill their chances anyway. Guys that want an easy lay can just gun for mothers. And yes one of the struggles of our time is that men and women have been set up against each other. Your side of that is also apparent in what you write.

Then I'm paying two debts on one income. Not worth it at all.

We're all cattle anyways and that's how it's been for 2 to 4 thousand years. Why the fuck trip over minutiea?

 

[Dreamer]

I just saw a documentary about dudes who have full-time relationships with realdolls. Perfectly happy that way and zero rage. Food for thought right there.

People can be perfectly content alone, there's no need for them to cope&seethe by having a "relationship" with a fleshlight. The fact that they do suggests they're not as happy as they might want to present themselves. When reading/watching shit like this "Jay Doll King Hefner" always consider the angle. Why would a content guy feel the need to explain to you why he's happy? Because he's explaining it to himself.

1950: birth control
2050: horny control

We've been over this here, incels don't want to have sex just to stick their dick into something, they want a relationship and social acceptance. Not being DTF wont make you stop looking for a relationship because its not even the only biological factor pushing you towards it. Besides what's with this wild speculation about altering our entire physiology, it reads like a shitty si-fi.

For the incels it is the perfect revenge fantasy

i think i get it now.

Not going to PL too much here but my entire life has been surrounded by broken relationships. I have a big family and literally only two couples in the generation before mine stayed together, while every divorce was nasty, drawn out and expensive.

And this clearly has a psychological effect on you. When thinking about a relationship you make a cost-to-benefit analysis and dismiss it instead of even considering that it could work out. Because you've been conditioned to think this way. Understandable but wrong.

Why would you choose to stay with the first man? You only get half as much money. Women are not predisposed to loyalty from an evolutionary perspective. It takes time and money to find a girl. She will have debt because they all went to school. She will want to work. If she works and I work, theres no kid.

All this is just a cope. Its also mostly about money which suggests to me you probably grew up poor (or in the US), which is fine. There are easy solutions to your problems but they don't matter since you can just readily invent more of them, a permanent fix would be to change the way you think about relationships altogether. Instead of thinking that you're spending money on a future wife consider that you're just going on a date to have a good time and if you have to pay you're doing it for yourself. And also don't date women you know you don't like.
That's not necessarily advice to you (i don't care), just an "out" of this line of thinking, i see it a lot.

 

[RayBlue123(TransRights)]

1. Schools are not a solution. Asking schools to fix something is a fucking disaster waiting to happen. Parents should teach their kids social skills by having the kids play with the neighbors. It is the parent's responsibility for their children's future well-being. Instead of more responsibility on the school (i.e. shitty incompetent municipal government bureaucracy), make no-fault divorce illegal and create a social environment in which parents who break up families are penalized. Basically fix families. Yes, I recognize this to be a pipe dream.

2. See number 1. School's don't need shrinks. They need less influence. Especially if you are talking about explicit psychological influence. Instead kids should be more willing to share with their family (including extended family). Aka families should be less fucked up. Again, pipe dream (in USA at least)

3. Seems fine. Nothing wrong with asking anybody to take more initiative. I don't think it would work but I can't see it hurting anything. Could create situations where incels just have the fact that they aren't liked rubbed in, when no girl asks them out and ten girls ask out Chad. But that happens anyway.

4. The sexual revolution and its consequences have been a disaster for the human race. A bizarre mixture of libertine sexual mores and puritan social psychopathy exists today and there are more incels and fewer people having sex. In fact, there is no reason to believe that eliminating "slut shaming" (which is mostly a female phenomenon, seriously, women are absolutely vicious to one another) would create a more egalitarian sexual society.

5. I agree. Virginity in and of itself is not shameful and should be considered a virtue.


Yes this anecdote and the many like it is why I lament the fact that there is not a comprehensive and sincere study available. Because all we really have is unsorted anecdotes and personal impressions about them.

No-fault divorce, single-parent families are what makes Gen Z extremely fucked up. In my country, you need a strong case to divorce someone.