[–]OMEGA362
Unfortunately the problem is that no one is educated on consent, not the transfemmes certainly and not the straights and not the lesbians and not the gays, just no one, the best consent education a person is likely to get is from kink dungeons or similar such institutions and that's like a fraction of a fraction of a percent of people. Like we have the fries model we have nuanced excellent models of consent and also no one is being taught these models,
it has nothing to do with transfemmes and everything to do with like rape culture, and a lack of sex ed
"Unfortunately the problem is that no one is educated on consent, not the transfemmes certainly and not the straights and not the lesbians and not the gays, just no one, "
This! Exactly!
This is why I suggest we discuss it more openly. The opportunity for abuse is a challenge we face especially given the differing power dynamics often at play.
OK but framing it as transfemmes that are the problem is leaning into transphobic stereotypes unfortunately.
Do you feel we should avoid talking about topics that brush up against transphobic talking points?
Although wrong to call us men, being transfemme does not make us immune to internalizing aspects of patriarchal socialization that harbors entitlement and lack of empathy, which is at the core of disregard for consent.
Do you not feel like ignoring some salient points by OP would perpetuate a missing stair problem within the trans community?
No, like i said I think the conversation is good and important, and also it's not a trans conversation and framing it as a uniquely trans problem is mirroring transphobic stereotypes, i disagree with not what is being said but how it's being said. And also ignoring consent is usually not about socialization but lack of education, if the discussion was simply us as a group need to work on consent education because it's severely lacking with most people, then yes I agree. But the conversation is instead transfemmes are at a greater risk to assault someone because they used to be men so we need to work on consent education, like yes we should work on consent education but why are you saying it in the same way JK Rowling would say it.
Do you not feel education is a part of socialization?
I personally don’t feel that is framed as a uniquely transfemme problem. More highlighting the uniqueness of the how the overarching problem affects transfemme people in a way we don’t discuss much. And I feel that’s valid.
No it isn't, not really, socialization is ostensibly unchangeable, once you're socialized your done being socialized. Whereas education is ongoing, ideally your always being educated, you should always seek out new information and perspectives. And if you don't see how the framing is transphobic, frankly your probably framing stuff poorly too. Also I'd talk about how male socialization in trans people is radfem nonsense but I feel as though that's not a conversation your ready to have.
What in my conversation makes you feel I’m not open to conversation?
I’m currently looking at multiple peer reviewed articles that link together education and socialization. I personally don’t see how they can’t be linked, but I’ll look for more evidence that is not the case. If you could provide me with the basis of your claim, that would be helpful.
Likewise, I see multiple sources stating that socialization is a lifelong process, subject to change, and that people frequently under go resocialization.
So if you’d like me to entertain your assertion, I’d be open to that but the evidence I’m finding is has not been in favor of it.
That's not what OP is saying. OP said that no demographic understands it enough.
I know, but op is framing the conversation in a way that implicates harmful transphobic stereotypes. It's not about the literal meaning of conversation it's about framing. You surely can see the difference between "everyone needs to consider consent and it's important in our community to have a good understanding," and "transfemmes are much more dangerous because of how they were pre transition so it's important to consider consent in transfemme sapphic relationships." It's the same conversation and the same message but one is framed by transphobia
[–]Nildnas2
yes this is a topic that should be talked about. but claiming that anyone who was successful pre-transition are basically just secret rapey men that didn't have to struggle to get to their point in their life is genuinely really fucking weird. I'm going to be honest,
this just sounds like a personal vendetta for you and not a discussion you should be heading
I'm a victim and survivor with direct experience. I also am a lot older now and have had a lot of time to think on and process on these issues. I'm working on finding ways to discuss how we can prevent there being more victims and heal our community.
Tell me someone else who should lead this discussion.
and using that experience to paint an entire subsection of the community as inherent abusers just because they share one common trait with your abuser is completely unacceptable. and if that's what you're going to be pushing for with this discussion, then absolutely someone else should lead the discussion.
I didn’t have only one abuser. And I’ve read at least hundreds of stories of others that are similar to my own.
You can dismiss me if you’d like; but I think we could make our community safer if we are willing to talk about it.
yes we should talk about it. and again, talking about it in a way that paints an entire subset of the community as "not understanding consent" because they were "more successful men" is not going to make anything safer. if we were to use your frame work, it would split the community into "inherent abuser" and "inherent victims". which so perfectly mimics patriarchal anti-trans propaganda. singular traits don't make someone an abuser, and reducing this conversation down to the single dimensions of "were you successful or not" is not a real conversation, that's a smear campaign. again, your approaching this as a personal vendetta against a single character trait, rather than the nuanced conversation about an extremely traumatized group of people. that sadly, pretty often do some fucked up things as a response. and power imbalance is a real issue in the community and something that should be talked about. but that's something that should be looked at through a class and racial lense, something that is well established and gives pre-existing framework for these types of conversations. boiling it down to "everyone that falls into this category I made up, is an abuser" isn't even a conversation
[–]CrackedMeUp
Having trouble reading this without it coming across as "lots of transfems be rapey because of their socialized patriarchal privilege."
Nuanced understanding of consent and power dynamics aren't just for trans folks. It should be something that's discussed when appropriate both within and outside of the trans community, and
certainly doesn't need to be a thinly veiled generalization about transfems having "male socialization."
In practice, it's not a good long term idea since not all autistic people think that way or are troons, but it is hilarious when someone starts chimping hard over it.
