Are you practicing digital hygiene in Gaming?

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Prove that video games are currently sold as a product.
In the case of physical media such as disks and cartridges, I argue that the product is the disk or cartridge that the game is stored on, and you merely have disk/cartridge ownership, and that the game which is stored or represented on that medium cannot be owned.
In the case of digital storefront, video games are not sold as a product.
I'm not gonna lie to you bro, I WILL use that wall of text you posted above as a good example of a good nigger cattle consumer when arguing the point in the future. Just letting you know, especially since you're doubling down on it(lol)
 
What the fuck are you talking about? If I pay for a product, I expect to have ownership of it indefinitely.
You'll want to double check if they agree with you in their EULA. The majority if the EULAs and TOS's you have to sign to play the game in the first place are written in legalese to put it bluntly, rape you over the idea of ownership. Deep down you'll find them changing the definition of the word purchase as nothing more than a temporary license that can and will be revoked at any time they feel like it.
 
Digital Hygiene, the blood of every free-to-play game to have ever existed. Take it out and they are all the same: scummy and self-destructive. If the internet and cloud servers vanished overnight, all these always-online games (even the beloved Helldivers 2) will be nothing more but a faded memory lost without a physical copy and an offline mode.
 
You'll want to double check if they agree with you in their EULA. The majority if the EULAs and TOS's you have to sign to play the game in the first place are written in legalese to put it bluntly, rape you over the idea of ownership. Deep down you'll find them changing the definition of the word purchase as nothing more than a temporary license that can and will be revoked at any time they feel like it.
Ross is aiming to change that since it's clearly bullshit, and I hope he isn't the only one who goes on attack covering this front. Something tells me that the only reason these gaming companies can get away with this nonsense is because our politicians worldwide are old fucks who don't even know gaming industry is screwing over people like this, that's how they've been able to get away with things that would put other mediums out of business.
Reminder, always back up everything you own. Even if you need a crack or some other way to play the game afterwards, at least you will have the raw files, and therefore, you "own it" forever. Because all video games are a product, that includes free to play ones.
 
Ross is aiming to change that since it's clearly bullshit, and I hope he isn't the only one who goes on attack covering this front. Something tells me that the only reason these gaming companies can get away with this nonsense is because our politicians worldwide are old fucks who don't even know gaming industry is screwing over people like this, that's how they've been able to get away with things that would put other mediums out of business.
Reminder, always back up everything you own. Even if you need a crack or some other way to play the game afterwards, at least you will have the raw files, and therefore, you "own it" forever. Because all video games are a product, that includes free to play ones.
Times like this makes me wish we had a far more stringent version of the Hays Code but for vidya, something that inevitably fucks the current system of the industry and forces it to crash.
 
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Times like this makes me wish we had a far more stringent version of the Hays Code but for vidya, something that inevitably fucks the current system of the industry and forces it to crash.
That's why I hope people make a big stink about The Crew and Ross will be actually able to get something going. If anyone can do it, it's someone with his level of autism and pure hatred towards the industry practices.
Once the ball gets rolling, we can go from there. We've seen the law pay attention when Battlefront 2 had their "surprise mechanics" that were so bad that they mostly killed loot boxes, I'm thinking we're about to see something similar with GAAS and other games that need a central server to function. This will, at the very least, force companies to prove that they have some sort of a end life plan, like releasing their source code or making games playable offline. If not, well, guess they will have to stop making these shitty always online GAAS casinos.
 
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If not, well, guess they will have to stop making these shitty always online GAAS casinos.
Will not happen. Genshin Impact and Hoyoverse in general exists and they have TOS guidelines.
 
Will not happen. Genshin Impact and Hoyoverse in general exists and they have TOS guidelines.
One can :optimistic:
Mind you I am not expecting anything out of China, but you might get some Western nations to force companies to have an end of life plan for games(which all GAAS would need). Remember, Steam didn't used to have refunds until Australia complained about that. Change CAN happen, but it's going to go at a glacial pace at best.
 
iirc in their blog they had a whole thing saying how piracy lead to more gamers and therefore more sales and they only started the company because they pirated games as kids?
GOG made FCKDRM.com, & partnered with the EFF in an initiative of the same name, to evangelize against DRM and promote digital ownership.
Screenshot 2024-04-08 at 09-53-16 FCK DRM.png
There is (was?) a short documentary on YT with one of the CDPR OG's for The Witcher 3 (IIRC) where he says that if it weren't for piracy he probably wouldn't have been into software/gaming because he grew up living behind the Iron Curtain and couldn't legally access games. I can't find that video right now, but here is a video on GOG's YT with CEO and co-founder Marcin Iwinski prior to the 2013 announcement of Witcher 3 being released DRM free. It seems they have been consistently walking back their pro-consumer stance.

In 2021, GOG quietly removed the site, and redirected it towards their main URL. Redditors (eventually) noticed:
redditors.png
Here is a Torrent Freak article (A) about the FCKDRM initiative. Some choice GOG quotes from the memory hole:
GOG said:
“[T]here is a killswitch built into your games. Sure, DRM might not affect you right now, but corporations hold the key and they’ll only let you in as long as you can repeatedly prove ownership. As long as you’re connected to the internet. As long as their DRM works without fault. As long they’re still around,” GOG adds.

“So should the burden of proof be on you? Do you place your trust in someone who doesn’t trust you?”

“DRM-free approach in games has been at the heart of GOG.COM from day one. We strongly believe that if you buy a game, it should be yours, and you can play it the way it’s convenient for you, and not how others want you to use it,” GOG said in a statement.

“The landscape has changed since 2008, and today many people don’t realize what DRM even means. And still the DRM issue in games remains – you’re never sure when and why you can be blocked from accessing them. And it’s not only games that are affected, but your favorite books, music, movies and apps as well.”
Both GOG & Steam are slightly better than the rest, in at least they allow a little bit of lee-way with DRM etc., but it seems that things will keep trending in this direction for the foreseeable future. Pirate anti-consumer products, support modding and 3rd party solutions (stuff like Xlink & Beacon).
 
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*you vill own nothing und you vill be happy*
You know what all of this shit you autistically argue about is called? It's called uncharted legal territory. This is a new issue that legislative bodies are yet to notice and react to. In Ross Scott's video about his Stop Killing Games initiative he showed a quote from one of the European consumer rights groups that they never heard of a situation where a digital good, that was also sold on physical disks, was taken away from paying customers, even though it has happened before many times.

Your entire autistic tirade bases itself on laws that are outdated and have not yet kept up with the current issue that digital software distribution poses, and those laws can change, and they will change if enough people raise this issue to the right people, which will lead to laws being passed that will force all the publishers to treat digital games as physical goods, meaning no yoinking a game from under you, whether because you were a bad boy or because the publisher said so.
There is (was?) a short documentary on YT with one of the CDPR OG's for The Witcher 3 (IIRC) where he says that if it weren't for piracy he probably wouldn't have been into software/gaming because he grew up living behind the Iron Curtain and couldn't legally access games.
I believe that was the noclip documentary, and I think the part you're quoting is the most replayed one:
You could make an entire documentary on piracy in PRL and 3RP, how Commodore 64 games would be pirated by radio, and how in the early days of 3RP in the 90's, before there were established copyright laws, there was an entire gray market of bootlegs sold on open air markets, and it was common for them to have crappy bootleg translations done by Russians or Ukrainians. And then in the 2000's there were situations where the newly made copyright laws were being abused and the police would seize people's computers if they were caught torrenting, and never give them back.

Thankfully those days are long gone, corruption has been brought down to democratic levels, so it only exists on the highest political ladders now, and ISP's don't give a shit if you torrent, and copyright trolls only snitch IP's of people who torrent shitty Polish movies, so piracy in Poland is very relaxed, plus it's been pushed away by legal services as the economy improved and the market grew. I've seen people in shock when I told them torrents are still around and doing well.

But the whole crux of it is the hypocrisy of Iwiński, Kiciński, Badowski and co., which runs a little bit deeper. Before they were on-board with being anti-DRM, retail copies of The Witcher 2 had SecuROM DRM, which goes against their apparent openness to piracy because "they know the struggle", and it seems that they've flip-flopped on it again. But to be fair, they are a public company, meaning that they don't own it, so now it may be that the investors are dialing back their consumer friendliness.

Oh yeah, another fun fact, GSC Game World, the Ukrainian game company, started off in a similar fashion as CD Projekt. They became a local publisher that translated games into Russian, and then moved onto making their own games. However with GSC, the crux of the story is Grigorovich himself who cared little about keeping the company alive and only cared about the short term profits, but that's a topic for another time.
 
I just play single player games.

AL players are what I chat with, and when I log in, I have Tiddyfondler88 saying Nill Kiggers with emote spam after it as the first thing I see. Than an argument over whose gay and the 999th loli debate.

Teamspeak is good, have a work email, a game email, and a kiwifarms email. You don't even need to worry about names unless you are called Sir Puffybottoms Perivinkle the Third, Prince of Alabama.
 
You know what all of this shit you autistically argue about is called? It's called uncharted legal territory. This is a new issue that legislative bodies are yet to notice and react to. In Ross Scott's video about his Stop Killing Games initiative he showed a quote from one of the European consumer rights groups that they never heard of a situation where a digital good, that was also sold on physical disks, was taken away from paying customers, even though it has happened before many times.

Your entire autistic tirade bases itself on laws that are outdated and have not yet kept up with the current issue that digital software distribution poses, and those laws can change, and they will change if enough people raise this issue to the right people, which will lead to laws being passed that will force all the publishers to treat digital games as physical goods, meaning no yoinking a game from under you, whether because you were a bad boy or because the publisher said so.
Don't misquote me, you fucking commie nigger

I am saying that there are things that can be ownable, and there are things that cannot be ownable
"Ownership" of a thing meaning "the exclusive right to control" that thing
If you have ownership of a chair, it means you have the exclusive right to control that chair, so if some other person were to come along and destroy that chair without your consent, your rights have been invaded and violated by that person
Ownership of a game is literally impossible because a game is an idea, and therefore not a scarce good

My "entire autistic tirade" is based on the consistent application of legal theory, not some arbitrary regional laws and edicts
My goal is to make sure that things are just, so that no innocent person gets fucked over, and any fucking over can be avoided right from the start

"Digital goods" are nonsensical as a concept, and the world would be better off without such misdirection
If they are stored on physical media that you personally own, there is nothing to be gained by declaring certain sectors of memory some "digital good"
If they are stored on physical media that others own (read: data centers and servers), then what they are doing is providing a service by allowing you to connect to those things and copy/download/transmit stuff

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If you can point out a contract you have agreed to that has declared that "ownership of a digital good" is sold to you, and it is not done through the transfer of a physical medium such as a disk or cartridge, then congratulations, the seller of the "digital good" has defrauded you and, in the consistent application of legal theory, you would be entitled to damages and restitution
 
For instance, if you pay for a musician to perform a piece for you, you cannot own his hands or his instrument or the acts of the performance.
But you could certainly have a copy of that work through physical media or digital means however you choose to preserve their work. The work itself isn't "tangible," but you can sell/distribute that work through recordings/videos/instruction. Music CDs are a great example of that tangibility.

If the recipe comes on a piece of paper, you very likely own the piece of paper (like, let's assume we're not dealing with some nutcase who just sells you the opportunity to look and photocopy or photograph a written recipe), but the recipe itself is an idea, something that cannot be owned, it can be copied, imitated, duplicated infinitely and arbitrarily. Any kind of attempt to define an "ownership" (read: the right to exclusive control of a thing) of a non-scarce good, you will end up violating real property rights.
Do you know what cookbooks are? A collection of recipes bundles together in one book. Now, if you outright copy the texts from a cookbook and sell it as your own, that's plagiarism. However, nothing is stopping you from passing on or selling the cookbook as its own entity since you own a copy of that material.

Prove that video games are currently sold as a product.
In the case of physical media such as disks and cartridges, I argue that the product is the disk or cartridge that the game is stored on, and you merely have disk/cartridge ownership, and that the game which is stored or represented on that medium cannot be owned.
I own a preowned copy of GTA IV. I own the software embedded on the disc to freely play it on my Xbox as many times as the disc itself allows me to. If I don't want it anymore, I can give/sell my copy to somebody else. Hell, I could even rip the files from disc using external software if I had the technical knowhow to do that.

Buying used products isn't illegal. What SHOULD be looked at is whenever you buy software, said software should be usable without Internet access/log in/DRM in today's digital age.
 
But you could certainly have a copy of that work through physical media or digital means however you choose to preserve their work. The work itself isn't "tangible," but you can sell/distribute that work through recordings/videos/instruction. Music CDs are a great example of that tangibility.
Correct, works can be copied because they are not scarce. You can't right-mouse-button-Save-As... a chair or Ctrl-C-Ctrl-V a vase.
Music CDs are a way to make ideas tangible, and because they are physical goods, ownership of a CD is not in contention. However, ownership of the contents of the CD makes no logical sense.
Do you know what cookbooks are? A collection of recipes bundles together in one book. Now, if you outright copy the texts from a cookbook and sell it as your own, that's plagiarism. However, nothing is stopping you from passing on or selling the cookbook as its own entity since you own a copy of that material.
Cookbooks are a fantastic idea for why my logic makes sense and any deviation doesn't.
"Sell it as your own" and "plagiarism" are merely forms of courtesy and respect, but the way I see it, anybody has a right to claim anything (such as "I made this") and anybody and everybody has a right to call such claims into question and doubt them. To enforce "correct statements" and to legally sanction "incorrect statements" opens many cans of worms. For instance, "everything that's in newspapers must be true, because if it wasn't, people would have already sued it". Thus sheep automatically believe that what's in newspapers is true. With a more widespread attitude of "everybody is legally allowed to make any claims", there would be more skepticism and higher standards of verification.
And regarding the recipes, ownership of the recipes makes no logical sense. That is the core of my argument. There can be no exclusive control of an idea. If you imitate "my" recipe or copy it or simply catch a glimpse of the cookbook and memorize it, congratulations, you have a duplicate of that recipe and there is absolutely nothing I can do to change that without performing a lobotomy on you, which would clearly violate your ownership (== right to exclusive control) over your own body.
Games and "digital goods" are the exact same thing. There is absolutely nothing that stops you from, I dunno, getting a monkey on a typewriter to come up with the exact 1s and 0s that result in, say, a perfectly working Windows executable of Team Fortress 2.
I own a preowned copy of GTA IV. I own the software embedded on the disc to freely play it on my Xbox as many times as the disc itself allows me to. If I don't want it anymore, I can give/sell my copy to somebody else. Hell, I could even rip the files from disc using external software if I had the technical knowhow to do that.

Buying used products isn't illegal. What SHOULD be looked at is whenever you buy software, said software should be usable without Internet access/log in/DRM in today's digital age.
You own the disc. Ownership of the "software" makes no sense because the software can be copied without any traces to the original.
The disc itself is a product. Buying used products isn't illegal.
But ownership of a "digital good" cannot be a thing without huge intrusions into private property rights, therefore it cannot be legitimate, and any attempts to treat it as legitimate must be seen as gross and dangerous acts.
"Software" cannot be owned. You buy either a medium which is agreed upon to contain a working copy of the software, or you buy the service of access to some data center and client and user interface to access or download the software. But "buying software" cannot be a thing.
Replace "software" with "the word 'sneed'" and it's easier to see. Ownership of a word is completely and utterly ludicrous, and any technological solution for "enforcing" such "ownership" will lead to violations of the rights of others who attempt to say or write that word. A video game, a recipe, an idea, a melody, an image, a concept, a pattern, all of these things fall within the exact same category of "free goods", and there can be no such thing as ownership of a free good.
 
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And regarding the recipes, ownership of the recipes makes no logical sense. That is the core of my argument. There can be no exclusive control of an idea. If you imitate "my" recipe or copy it or simply catch a glimpse of the cookbook and memorize it, congratulations, you have a duplicate of that recipe and there is absolutely nothing I can do to change that without performing a lobotomy on you,
Correct. You don't "own" a recipe, you CREATE a recipe that can be shared by others for them to use/pass on/modify.

Games and "digital goods" are the exact same thing. There is absolutely nothing that stops you from, I dunno, getting a monkey on a typewriter to come up with the exact 1s and 0s that result in, say, a perfectly working Windows executable of Team Fortress 2.
No. Buying a video game from a digital storefront is ONE METHOD of obtaining/playing/owning that product. There's nothing wrong with the idea of buying a game from the Internet. The issue is that the gaming industry could care less about preservation of products that once upon a time, one would be able to buy, use, play, dissect without restriction.

Ownership of a word is completely and utterly ludicrous, and any technological solution for "enforcing" such "ownership" will lead to violations of the rights of others who attempt to say or write that word.
Ownership, in context, is the ability to use your purchased/borrowed video game on your hardware, no strings attached. As games are becoming more reliant to online servers and authentication, that concept of "ownership" with your software is disappearing as access to that title could be altered/revoked at the publisher's will without recourse.

My physical copy of Battleborn is currently a coaster as the game needs to authenticate with 2K's sunset servers. 2K offered NO recourse or solution to preserve their own sold software.
 
I sympathize with the idea of "game ownership", but at its core, a game is nothing but an idea
In terms of a video game, it is nothing but executable code, mesh, textures, sounds, parametrization, etc.pp.
None of these things are scarce physical goods
Instead, they are "free" goods, in the sense that you can play a game without depriving someone else from playing it, your playing of the game does not in any way effect your own future supply of the game nor the present or future supply of the game for others
So, you're fine with video games being a mere license to have the publisher's permission to revoke access to the paid product without archival solution? How about the countless people involved in game development where their hard work, creativity and passion is potentially wiped away because it's all stored in some server?

You know why some physical games balloon in price? Because said copies are scarce due to them not being in print for various reasons. With today's technology, we have the potential to, once again, PRESERVE, our beloved medium if the gaming industry refuses to.
 
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Correct. You don't "own" a recipe, you CREATE a recipe that can be shared by others for them to use/pass on/modify.
Creation is very overrated in these discussions. If you come up with (create) a recipe and, by sheer coincidence, somebody two weeks in the future on some other continent also comes up with (creates) an identical recipe, it has absolutely zero influence on the "ownership" of the recipe, because there is none. Or maybe you are erroneous in your claim that you created it because you were not aware that the same recipe has already been documented in some 200-year-old cookbook that you simply didn't know of. In any case, even if God almighty informed you about the recipe in a dream, nothing would actually change about the "ownership".
No. Buying a video game from a digital storefront is ONE METHOD of obtaining/playing/owning that product. There's nothing wrong with the idea of buying a game from the Internet.
Ownership, again, is the exclusive right to control something. If you buy a computer (or the computer parts to build one), you have the exclusive right to control, for instance, what's in that computer's hard drive and memory. There is no such thing as exclusive right to control a software. You cannot say that, for instance, if I also obtain a copy of the software, your "exclusive right to control" that software means that I am forbidden from playing it. If you attempted to enforce such software "ownership", you would be violating my ownership of my computer and potentially also my hands that I use to operate it. Or my brain if it is such a simple video game that I can memorize the source code, or you imply that you have ownership of the mere concept and idea of the game.
There is nothing wrong with buying a game from the Internet if and only if it simply means you get transferred a copy. The breeding ground for issues begins where you go beyond that.
Ownership, in context, is the ability to use your purchased/borrowed video game on your hardware, no strings attached.
No, ownership is the exclusive right to control a thing. You use the ownership you have over your own body, incl. hands and fingers, and the ownership you have over your hardware, incl. storage and memory, to execute code that is currently there on hardware you own.
If we took this "the ability to use your purchased/borrowed video game on your hardware" to heart, then anything that breaks any of the included clauses would somehow change something about the "ownership, in context".
As games are becoming more reliant to online servers and authentication, that concept of "ownership" with your software is disappearing as access to that title could be altered/revoked at the publisher's will without recourse.
Sure, use a different definition of "ownership" and then your point is true.
My physical copy of Battleborn is currently a coaster as the game needs to authenticate with 2K's sunset servers. 2K offered NO recourse or solution to preserve their own sold software.
True, and my condolences go out to you.
However, it is your responsibility as a paying customer to ensure that you make wise purchases in expectation of such publisher decisions. And it is also your responsibility to abstain from purchasing goods and services as a result of the vendor having had scummy behavior in the past.
It is also the responsibility of publishers etc.pp. to not fuck over the customers so that they are more likely to have trust among them.

So, you're fine with video games being a mere license to have the publisher's permission to revoke access to the paid product without archival solution?
Personally, I am not fine with that. That is one of the reasons why I rarely play games that depend on some external server to function.
I exercise my right to free association and disassociation by simply abstaining from entering into such agreements, and I very much encourage others to do the same. The more people share this attitude, the fewer paying customers there are for such shitty publishers to profit from.
Ideally, more customer sovereignty would drive such shitty practices to extinction because they simply become unprofitable out of a lack of revenue from potentially paying customers.
How about the countless people involved in game development where their hard work, creativity and passion is potentially wiped away because it's all stored in some server?
Sucks for them, but they presumably agreed to contractual agreements with their employers (game studios) and those game studios presumably have contractual agreements with their employers (publishers).
I am very very very very VERY much against suddenly intervening into valid contracts just for some emotional reasons. Think back to my massage therapist example. Imagine if there are people who feel extremely strongly about massages and believe that it is a scummy practice that massage sessions have to be purchased individually and need to be scheduled.
The way I see it, agreements that are made without coercion and that are, in terms of their content, valid, are to be enforced as is.

EDIT here:
This very very much reminds me of people who whine in public that they purchased a thing, only for that thing to be sold for a lower price a day later.
Why the fuck would you complain? At the time you purchased it, you have demonstrated that you valued ownership of that thing higher than ownership of the money you spent on it. At the time you believed that such a purchase was a good decision, and because you believed it is a good decision, you made it.
Just because it got sold for a discount soon after you bought it changes nothing about the fact that, at the time you purchased it, you were convinced that it was a good decision to do so.

You know why some physical games balloon in price?
Because there are more people in a society who are willing to possess a copy. If the number of willing possessors of a thing increases and everything else remains the same, the equilibrium price of that thing increases. Very basic economic theory in action.
Because said copies are scarce due to them not being in print for various reasons.
Think about the logical implications to the arguments I am making. When I say that ownership of an idea is impossible and thus illegitimate, I mean it not just for the consumer, but also for the producer. Meaning that every human being must have the inalienable right to produce such copies as long as they do not unwantonly harm the physical integrity of the property of other people in doing so. Meaning that all IP law, copyright law, trademark law, is null and void and fake and gay. And if you want to produce cartridges which contain DRM-free game copies, I will fight to the death for your right to do so with your own property.
With today's technology, we have the potential to, once again, PRESERVE, our beloved medium if the gaming industry refuses to.
Exactly, and because I recognize "intellectual property rights" as illegitimate, any attempt to stop or hinder you from preserving your beloved media (assuming that you doing so does not physically harm the property of others) would be a violation of your rights, as you (presumably) use nothing but your own private property when you preserve or copy your video games. As far as I am concerned, you must have the right to shoot dead anybody who attempts to hinder you from preserving games without your consent.
 
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You can explain normies that buying an always onlinvideo game is like buying an apartment; the company owns the building (server) and maintenance (backend) but you are still entitled to access your data, even if they do not want to maintain it.

Closing servers would be like the company selling the apartments and 1 year later demolishing the building, because they don't feel like maintaining it anymore.
Reminder, always back up everything you own. Even if you need a crack or some other way to play the game afterwards, at least you will have the raw files, and therefore, you "own it" forever. Because all video games are a product, that includes free to play ones.
Yes I noticed this when Steam decided to uninstall delisted mods. I presume it's the same for VGs; once it's delisted, Steam will take the liberty to uninstall it from your memory. At least Steam has the decency to offer refunds sometimes.
 
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