Armed Protesters take over Fed owned Building

http://www.cnn.com/2016/01/03/us/oregon-wildlife-refuge-protest/index.html

Yep. Another chapter in the Cliven Bundy saga. Protesters have taken over a Federal building in Oregon, claiming the government is using unfair tactics to try and get them to sell them their farmland. Shit hit the fan when ranchers where arrested for arson. The ranchers claim they where doing it to kill off invasive crops and to prevent wildfires. The protesters think the arrest was the government trying to punish ranchers.

Shit gonna go down folks
 
I could think of plenty of empty pieces of property that nobody is using right now.

Doesn't give me the right to march in and steal it.
Nowhere in my post did I say that these individuals had a right to occupy this property. I was merely highlighting one of the differences in the situation that likely explain why the National Guard has not been called in here whereas it was for the protests in Ferguson and Baltimore.
 
The Second Amendment doesn't mean and never meant that you could use guns to invade property that doesn't belong to you and occupy it.



I could think of plenty of empty pieces of property that nobody is using right now.

Doesn't give me the right to march in and steal it.
Never said that it did. What I meant was that the gun grabbers will use this as a strawman example.
 
I wish more people cared about their rights.
Rights aren't an issue here.
Like, the second amendment is one of the most important rights.
It's one of the least important rights.

Practically speaking, the second amendment almost never addresses a broad, societal issue. You could go down the list of amendments, and with most of them, you can find big, important issues they address. They were passed to solve real life problems. The second amendment matters a lot more in theory than in practice, compared to those ones.

That doesn't necessarily prove it's unimportant, because everyone defines importance in their own way. But you should at least understand why people don't just take it on faith that the second amendment is important.
I guess we only hate them cause they're rednecks.
I wouldn't say I hate them (in this specific situation, anyway). But yeah, I dislike them, but not because they're rednecks, but because armed insurrection against the legitimate government is not acceptable.
Unlike Mizzou they have an actual grievance.
Highly questionable.
 
That headline made it sound way more exciting than it really is. I pictured a bunch of sovcitz storming a post office or something extraordinarily retarded like that, instead of the mildly retarded occupying a federally owned shack in the middle of the woods.

:sighduck:

5:1 odds this ends with them getting arrested in a week's time after the police get bored of sitting around.
 
That headline made it sound way more exciting than it really is. I pictured a bunch of sovcitz storming a post office or something extraordinarily retarded like that, instead of the mildly retarded occupying a federally owned shack in the middle of the woods.
So many people want this to be called terrorism, whereas it's really just retardery. How is taking over an empty building in the middle of the woods terror?
 
Rights aren't an issue here.
agreed
It's one of the least important rights.
disagree
Practically speaking, the second amendment almost never addresses a broad, societal issue. You could go down the list of amendments, and with most of them, you can find big, important issues they address. They were passed to solve real life problems. The second amendment matters a lot more in theory than in practice, compared to those ones.
The second amendment provides the right to self defense in the home, and in most states, out of it as well. Crime is a broad societal issue, and there are hundreds of stories available regarding use of personal firearms to protect life and property inside and outside of the home.
That doesn't necessarily prove it's unimportant, because everyone defines importance in their own way. But you should at least understand why people don't just take it on faith that the second amendment is important.
Then why did you make a definitive statement saying "It's one of the least important rights" rather than a simple "I disagree"?
I wouldn't say I hate them (in this specific situation, anyway). But yeah, I dislike them, but not because they're rednecks, but because armed insurrection against the legitimate government is not acceptable.

Highly questionable.
I agree.
 
The second amendment provides the right to self defense in the home, and in most states, out of it as well. Crime is a broad societal issue, and there are hundreds of stories available regarding use of personal firearms to protect life and property inside and outside of the home.
The right to self defense is indeed important, but I don't think that it saturates people's everyday lives like many other rights do. Being attacked happens, but it's something of an anomaly. Of course, it's an anomaly that can get you killed, so it's still something to consider.

Also, I don't think a right to self defense is synonymous with a right to own firearms. I also think I'm much more likely to shoot myself (or someone else innocent) with a firearm than to actually use the firearm to defend myself or my property.
Then why did you make a definitive statement saying "It's one of the least important rights" rather than a simple "I disagree"?
Yeah, I should've worded that differently. I should've prefixed that with "I think ...".
Articles claiming that these hillbilly ranchers are terrorists is insulting to all of the people who've been exposed to actual terrorism.
Just who have these people killed or threatened? I'm sick of the alarmist 'reporting' I've been noticing lately.
So, admittedly this particular situation isn't that serious. However, they are threatening people implicitly by being armed and breaking into a federal building. They're saying they don't agree with the results of the judicial process, so they're going to fuck shit up. I'd say that qualifies as terrorism.

That's what the Oath Keepers were trying to do during the Kim Davis stuff. This group seems to be like a watered down version of the Oath Keepers.
 
Also, I don't think a right to self defense is synonymous with a right to own firearms. I also think I'm much more likely to shoot myself (or someone else innocent) with a firearm than to actually use the firearm to defend myself or my property.
Guns don't fire unless someone pulls the trigger. As far as I'm aware, accidental firing is a thing of the past, at least outside of incompetence.
So, admittedly this particular situation isn't that serious. However, they are threatening people implicitly by being armed and breaking into a federal building. They're saying they don't agree with the results of the judicial process, so they're going to fuck shit up. I'd say that qualifies as terrorism.
Being armed by itself is not a threat. They occupied an empty building in the middle of nowhere.
They're saying that the process has failed them, nowhere do they say they will fuck shit up. If they did I'd be a hell of a lot less empathetic about the situation, that's for sure!
 
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Guns don't fire unless someone pulls the trigger. As far as I'm aware, accidental firing is a thing of the past, at least outside of incompetence.
Yeah, I was assuming it wouldn't be a problem with the firearm, but rather with the user. Incompetence is very common.
Being armed by itself is not a threat. They occupied an empty building in the middle of nowhere.
They're saying that the process has failed them, nowhere do they say they will fuck shit up. If they did I'd be a hell of a lot less empathetic about the situation, that's for sure!
A group breaking the law to make a political point, while being armed, is pretty threatening. I mean, if the fact that they have guns is completely irrelevant, why couldn't they just leave the guns at home? It means something.

And yeah, I'm aware this is a pretty mild situation. No one's injured or anything.
 
Articles and tweets claiming that these hillbilly ranchers are terrorists is insulting to victims of terrorism.
Just who have these people killed or threatened? I'm sick of alarmism.

Terrorism is defined as "the unofficial or unauthorized use of violence and intimidation in the pursuit of political aims." They haven't resorted to violence yet, but sure as hell are willing to do so. Their aims are certainly political and walking around strapped with gats is a form of intimidation. Keep in mind, that there are other forms of terrorism that don't involve shooting up an abortion clinic or mailing a bomb to a politician.
 
I as told by someone who clarlyvwantdd to fellate them that this is over "double jeopardy" as they served short crappy sentences for poaching and arson and the judge wanted them put back in jail.
 
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It's great to see the Bundys back in action. From everything I've read, they aren't teamed up with the oathkeepers this time around. After Waco I believe law enforcement's rules of engagement with militia groups became very non confrontational, to avoid fanning the sovcit/militia flames. It's kind of a benign news story that will fade out as the loons get sick of sitting in a shack in the Oregon winter, without getting confronted.

I'm just hopeful this standoff will lead to more Bundy family endorsed candidates.
 
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Let's recall that Civen Bundy once had a rant about how black people were better off in happy slavery day when they pick the cotton
That was really funny to me, because up until that point, he was a media darling among some types of conservatives. As soon as he made that statement, his support evaporated.
 
The second amendment provides the right to self defense in the home, and in most states, out of it as well. Crime is a broad societal issue, and there are hundreds of stories available regarding use of personal firearms to protect life and property inside and outside of the home.
The Second Amendment isn't about defense against home invaders. The only reliable way to defend against things like that is if you already know for a fact someone's coming after you. And if something like that actually is happening, you shouldn't be waiting at home, you should shoot them first and shoot them when they're not looking and don't expect it.

This is what the Second Amendment is about:

The Myth of Gun Control said:
Christopher Hitchens, The Nation, January 24th, 1991

A favorite liberal sneer at the opponents of gun control is the suggestion that those who favor self-defense are fixated on the Old West and the imagined tradition of the lone gunslinger. Yet the most recent piece of gun control advocacy I have read - a smug little editorial in the relaunched New York Times Magazine - advised all those planning to arm themselves first to go and see Clint Eastwood's Unforgiven. So it appears that neither side in the argument can manage without the imagery of the frontier and the cowboy. Like many immigrants to this country, I suspect, I will never cease to be surprised by certain things as long as I live here. People tell you their religious denomination when they sit next to you on United Airlines ("Of course, we're Adventists". Of course.) People tell you about their shrinks. And people believe in the right to keep and bear arms. I'll never get over the first two, but I have, gradually, come to think that there is something truly admirable in a country that codifies the responsibility for self-defense. Pity it doesn't make use of it.

If you take the Second Amendment as a whole (which the National Rifle Association and the political conservatives generally do not) it can be understood as enshrining the right, if not indeed the duty, of citizens to defend their country, and themselves, from aggression, including aggression from the government. The idea of the "well-regulated militia" arose from a hostility to the monarchistic imposition of a standing army. The time might come when the people might have to muster against the state.

Well, what's wrong with that?

At present, the proud American citizen cowers at home, worried sick about crime and delegating, through votes and opinion polls, ever more power to "anti-crime" measures that increase statutory police power and rely upon lockdown procedures. At tax time, the same proud citizen hands over untold wealth to a titanic military bureaucracy that has usurped civilian authority in matters of foreign and defense policy. Emerging from his home, the same citizen still makes sure to put a "No Radio" sign in his car window (one of the most sickening emblems of capitulation I've ever seen) and to carry a $20-bill when jogging lest the mugger take offense at holding him up for nothing. (This piece of servility, too, is usually futile. You are more and more likely to be robbed and then shot in the face.) Meanwhile, every known civil liberty is mortgaged to a "war on drugs" that, in city after city, has meant police collusion with the drug dealers. Try calling the cops in the event of an assault on your home or your person and you risk being told in so many words that such stuff is beneath their attention. The social contract on "domestic tranquility," at least as it exists between state and citizen, is broken.

The only thing wrong with this picture, as far as most liberals seem to be concerned, is that more people are tempted to go and buy a gun. On its own, of course, this is a stupid and desperate gesture and, in many cases at lease, increases the chance that you are handing your assailant a gun. But an equally valid conclusion from that objection would be that more people should be better instructed in the care and use of a defensive weapon. This would improve the odds, either in the case of an attack by a common criminal or in the case of an unlawful trespass by some gargoyle from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms. Better to be judged by 12 than carried by six, as they say.

The statistics on all this are inexact, but not as alarming as you might think. In cases where armed and experienced civilians have intervened to challenge armed criminals, the likelihood of bystanders being hit has been several times less than in similar interventions by police. More important, though, is something that cannot be statistically quantified. People who are constantly afraid have lost their self-respect. And in an effort to get it back, they call for vicarious revenge on crime by bellowing for law and order solutions. When these fail to deliver, the talk turns to vigilantism. So one ends up with the words of both worlds - bloated, corrupt and repressive police departments and assault weapons in the hands of the gangsters, with public opinion still poisoned by fear. Instead of a confident citizenry, one has a mass of atomized opinion-poll digits, crying in vain to authority to save them, and loosing off the odd, vicious, Bernhard Goetz-style fusillade. (The Black Panthers, who at least briefly taught better manners to the police, also succumbed to gangsterism and illustrated the futility of Wild West-type tactics. there is no street-theater solution to this problem).

Thinking again about self-defense would involve reordering the idea of the "well-regulated militia". In exchange for abolition of the military-industrial complex, who would not consider reporting for the occasional weekend - as in many democratic European nations - and acquiring the rudiments of weapons training, to be accompanied by a reading of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights? Utopian, you say. No more than the half-baked pacifism that, when preached by gun-controllers, has as its corollary a duopoly of force in the hands of the state and the criminal. Certainly no more utopian than the pathetic "guns for vouchers" swap meets that are now making police precincts a laughingstock as they concentrate on the disarmament of the law-abiding (and the opportunist).

Since, with about 200 million guns on the scene, a gun-free future is not in the cards, and since the farce of Brady-style "registration" will have about the same effect as Prohibition had on narcotics, what could be more revolutionary and democratic than to nationalize and socialize the arms and weapons business? Instead of being another aspect of anarchy and alienation, it could become part of the solution. It would also cut with the American grain. Of course guns kill people. That's why the people should take control of the guns.

Sadly, these are policies neither side in Washington seem remotely interested in. Obama's taken the most callow and cynical approach to gun control he could possibly have done, and the NRA has never shown any significant interest in reigning in the MIC or government thuggery in the name of things like the War on Drugs.

Articles and tweets claiming that these hillbilly ranchers are terrorists is insulting to victims of terrorism.
Just who have these people killed or threatened? I'm sick of alarmism.
The Arthur Chus and Elon James Whites of the world are desperate for Western right-wing terrorism to be relevant again so they can continue justifying their capitulation towards the actually dangerous and relevant terrorist whom they've deemed "POCs" and thus rendered untouchable. Never mind that even those retrograde sociopaths in the Branch Davidians or the Army of God were outright liberal in comparison to those Wahhabi fucks who butchered the Charlie Hebdo cartoonists who were totes asking for it y'guys.

And on a last note, fuck Elon James White with two ivory strap-on dildos in the front and back.
 
Terrorism is defined as "the unofficial or unauthorized use of violence and intimidation in the pursuit of political aims." They haven't resorted to violence yet, but sure as hell are willing to do so. Their aims are certainly political and walking around strapped with gats is a form of intimidation. Keep in mind, that there are other forms of terrorism that don't involve shooting up an abortion clinic or mailing a bomb to a politician.
You say yourself that they haven't resorted to force yet, and who are they intimidating with those guns, trees?

They took over a wildlife reserve nowhere near a residential area while it was empty on the holidays. They've already stated that they would only fight to resist removal, so I guess that counts as violence?
I'm not very sympathetic to their means, but I subscribe to a much leaner definition of terrorism. If we start calling these morons terrorists I worry about the potential slippage.
 
You say yourself that they haven't resorted to force yet, and who are they intimidating with those guns, trees?

They took over a wildlife reserve nowhere near a residential area while it was empty on the holidays. They've already stated that they would only fight to resist removal, so I guess that counts as violence?
I'm not very sympathetic to their means, but I subscribe to a much leaner definition of terrorism. If we start calling these morons terrorists I worry about the potential slippage.
I agree. "Terrorism" puts you in a different class of criminal, the kind that allow indefinite detention and eliminates the right to a fair trial. I want these guys to get their day in court and then go to prison for a year or two for being stupid, I don't want them to get waterboarded in some CIA basement because they're "terrorists."
 
I could think of plenty of empty pieces of property that nobody is using right now.

Doesn't give me the right to march in and steal it.

Well technically you do under adverse posesion, but that's neither here nor there for this, especially since we're dealing with federal property.
I agree. "Terrorism" puts yindefifferent class of criminal, the kind that allow indefinite detention and eliminates the right to a fair trial. I want these guys to get their day in court and then go to prison for a year or two for being stupid, I don't want them to get waterboarded in some CIA basement because they're "terrorists."


That's not where the definition lies for that. The Gitmo prisoners are held indefinatly because the govt classified them on a mix of criminal and POW that affords the protections of neither. A citizen will get his day in court, the Boston Bomber did after all.
 
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