Better Call Saul

[Seventh Star]

Vince Gilligan has a problem with female characters. I don't know what the deal is but they're the most insufferable characters in media. Kim goes from one episode to absolutely disapproving to breaking and entering to being perfectly A-OK with driving someone completely fucking insane and fabricating their death. Being flip-floppity seems to be central to their character. Like Chuck might be an absolute cockface and a loon but he's consistent at the very least. Skyler? Kim? Marie? Who the fuck knows, spin a wheel and see where the arrow lands.

He was going the right direction with Kim, I think he just changes character personalities based on how much he needs to get out of the corners he writes himself into. See Jesse and Saul's convenient stupidity as well.

Then again many here would also say that its accurate to women IRL so, you know.

 

[AnOminous]

He was going the right direction with Kim, I think he just changes character personalities based on how much he needs to get out of the corners he writes himself into. See Jesse and Saul's convenient stupidity as well.

Then again many here would also say that its accurate to women IRL so, you know.

I think he's actually usually pretty good about character consistency, you just don't always know the character and they aren't usually what they seem to be at first. Look at Howard Hamlin. He started out as looking like a snaky corporate lawyer douchebag, and while this was part of his character, he was actually a lot more than that, too, part of why just killing him summarily was such a brutal thing to see, and why Kim and Saul fucking with him the way they were got increasingly disgusting, especially when it was clear they had no real motive other than pure sadism.

Similarly, we started out looking at Kim like she was some white knight paladin character getting sucked into a web of increasing degeneracy by Jimmy. Meanwhile she actually literally grew up on that shit. It wasn't Jimmy corrupting her, she was just reverting to form.

Walter White is actually the best example of this because if you go through the show a second time (which is well worth the hours), you see that everything that came through later was there all along. He didn't "break bad," he was always bad, just too cucked to pull the trigger.

I also actually liked Marie a lot as the show went on. She started out as a classic just BPD psycho klepto cunt with a whole shopping list full of cluster B shit to her, but when Hank got shot, she nursed him back to health and was incredibly patient with him even while he was acting like a dick and an angry manbaby. Crazy bitches be loyal yo.

And seriously, Jesse doing stupid stuff being out of character? That was his character. He was smarter than he let on, but he'd have to be really stupid to be that dumb.

Another character you could probably accuse of this was Mike, who died doing the dumbest fucking thing it was possible to do in that show, pissing off Walter White and then turning his back on him. It was really consistent, though. He had such absolute contempt for Walt that he had repeatedly underestimated him. Seriously, thinking a zip-tie would stop the Lex Luthor of meth? Dragging him to an underground lab to kill him and then putting a cell phone in his hand? Even just the very first encounter, thinking Walt wouldn't find his bugs?

That said, he's consistent in routinely underestimating Walt, that's literally what got him killed. Ironically, I'm pretty sure if Walt had gone into that encounter planning on killing Mike, Mike would have figured it out and killed him instead, but instead Walt flipped out like an unstable nutcase and committed a completely unnecessary murder. That's ironic because that's exactly the criticism Mike had of him, that he was an unstable nutcase who blew shit up out of pure ego.

That said the ending of BCS was unsatisfying because I don't see Jimmy as the sort to blow up his own life just to be a simp, and I don't see Kim as the sort to go marry some schlub to punish herself for being the equally-as-bad-as-Jimmy bitch she is.

 

[Seventh Star]

[snip]

Of course in hindsight it seems like it was planned all along, but episode by episode and knowing the delays between seasons, you can see him change the characterization because he doesn't know where to go. He admits he made Walter progressively worse just because he didn't want the audience to sympathize with him. I rewatched the show three times and it never stops feeling like its Vince Gilligan retconning or shuffling around the character's personality to make room for the next story arc, like when he got stuck in the junkyard with the RV, Hank, Jesse, and Walter. Or when he introduced the machine gun in the car's trunk and had to come up with a way to use it so he chose the engineertf2.mp4 route.

Jesse pointing out Gus's plans directly to him and exactly how it'd go down but getting manipulated anyways is retarded, just like when he coincidentally somehow found out the link between his missing ciggie, his missing weed, and Walt poisoning Brock, let alone giving a shit when that had been dealt with already. Huell and Badger are stupid characters, Jesse is a conveniently stupid character.

Saying Walt was a bad person before he committed all his actions is silly because he hadn't done anything bad yet and goes against the point of the show, his descent into being a criminal, and how people have the potential to be evil or good based on what they choose. As a sidenote, I will never understand why people moralfag about Walt poisoning Brock when he knew the effects of the Lily of the Valley wouldn't kill Brock and his family's life was at risk. Its the trolley problem but you dont even have to kill someone.

What I will accept if Howard's personality changing because it was clearly laid out for the viewer in how he reacts to Jimmy and Chuck, especially when he tells Jimmy he doesn't want to hire him. It was just hidden from the audience. I just don't agree with the characters getting a flashback a few seasons in that shows they've been bad all along or behaving in convenience to the plot.

 

[Unnamed Source]

Vince Gilligan has a problem with female characters. I don't know what the deal is but they're the most insufferable characters in media. Kim goes from one episode to absolutely disapproving to breaking and entering to being perfectly A-OK with driving someone completely fucking insane and fabricating their death. Being flip-floppity seems to be central to their character. Like Chuck might be an absolute cockface and a loon but he's consistent at the very least. Skyler? Kim? Marie? Who the fuck knows, spin a wheel and see where the arrow lands.

I think what they were going for was that Kim also suffered some form of trauma during the whole Bagman affair as a result of being afraid for Jimmy, thinking he's dead, confronting Lalo etc.
Before, she still wants to be part of the legal establishment and play by the rules to some degree. After, she impulsively reevaluates her whole life, decides to throw her job with Schweikart, and becomes fixated on Howard - it feels a little like mania, but I don't think that's unrealistic given the circumstances. I think she also realizes that Jimmy is considering breaking up with her, and tries to drag them both into indulging this shared unhealthy coping mechanism of theirs because she believes it'll save their relationship.

Kim obviously isn't acting the way a rational person would, but I don't find her actions internally inconsistent - I don't think I ever had a moment in the show where her actions seemed out of character, even when they're surprising in the moment they usually make sense in retrospect.

She also wasn't really A-OK with fabricating Howard's death - she played along, and in the moment she didn't really have a choice not to because Mike and Gus needed her to, but she was clearly guilt-wracked over it, ended her career and marriage over it, and confessed to it in the end. And as for driving Howard insane - she was clearly fine with hurting him, but she also worked under the assumption that he would come back from it, and judging by Howard's final monologue she probably would've been right - he's clearly not the type to just give up and kill himself.

 

[Ishtar]

It was pretty funny when he let Jane die though. If anybody in the BB universe deserved to die (aside from Marie or Skyler) Jane did.

Jane had just blackmailed him the day before her death, and she was choosing to be a heroin junky and was leading Jesse down the same road of self-destruction. I don't think she was an inherently malicious person (albeit being a hedonist is damnation enough), but she completely brought her death on herself.

 

[AnOminous]

Jane had just blackmailed him the day before her death, and she was choosing to be a heroin junky and was leading Jesse down the same road of self-destruction. I don't think she was an inherently malicious person (albeit being a hedonist is damnation enough), but she completely brought her death on herself.

Unlike a lot of the people Walt killed who just happened to be in his way, Jane actually went out of her way to fuck with him. At the time, he still had enough of a conscience to wrestle with it. Season 5 Walt would have put ricin in her smack without even a second thought.

 

[Oilspill Battery]

A lot of people complain that Jesse is an incompetend fuckup but honestly I don't mind. Jesse was portrayed from the start as an overly emotional incompetent druggie burnout, and the only reason walter sticks with him is because he's extremely easy to manipulate due to being so emotional and stupid.

Jesse driving the plot by being a total retard fits in this way I think up to a certain point.

 

[AnOminous]

A lot of people complain that Jesse is an incompetend fuckup but honestly I don't mind. Jesse was portrayed from the start as an overly emotional incompetent druggie burnout, and the only reason walter sticks with him is because he's extremely easy to manipulate due to being so emotional and stupid.

Jesse driving the plot by being a total retard fits in this way I think up to a certain point.

He's not as dumb as he looks. . .but he is pretty dumb, at least compared to the people he's surrounded by. He's also nowhere near evil enough to be swimming in the waters he is.

 

[Oilspill Battery]

He's not as dumb as he looks. . .but he is pretty dumb, at least compared to the people he's surrounded by. He's also nowhere near evil enough to be swimming in the waters he is.

The problem is that he is dealing with mexican cartels while having the emotional maturity of a 5 year old. He's supposed to be saavy enough to be a drug dealer without being caught but at times acts like a petulant teenager.

 

[Unnamed Source]

Nobody's asking the real question about Breaking Bad: Would Todd be trans if he'd been raised by middle class liberals instead of white trash neonazis?

 

[Ishtar]

Jesse clearly for whatever reason resisted or didn't fit into the middle class life in which he came, so he tries to be a gangbanger, more or less.

The issue is he doesn't have the ruthlessness or callousness for the "real" criminal world. He balks at using kids and seeing kids die, he has the sheer audacity to say "its bad to be making money from meth man" to Walter in season 5-somehow arguing being wealthy from drugs is wrong despite everything beforehand.

He wants to be a gangster, but it turns out he isn't cut out for it. What makes me less sympathetic than I might be-is we first meet Jesse as a druggie loser that apes stereotypical American "gangsta" culture. He kills a man on Walt's directive, and is fine with all of it, until a few kids get hurt, and he meets some true "gangsters".

Him getting a new life in Alaska and a (if he's cautious) clean slate, is really really more kind a fate than he deserves.

 

[AnOminous]

He's supposed to be saavy enough to be a drug dealer without being caught but at times acts like a petulant teenager.

I'd say no. Even Saul immediately pegged both of them as being really shitty at dealing meth. Actual line: "You two suck at peddling meth." One of the more hilarious moments of BB was when they kidnapped Saul and he thought it was the cartel and went straight from crying and begging to realizing he had two suckers on the hook.

He kills a man on Walt's directive, and is fine with all of it, until a few kids get hurt, and he meets some true "gangsters".

He realizes kids get hurt and then he goes to attack the dudes who did it, even though he's either dumb enough or brave enough (I think both) to do it regardless of the fact he's basically obviously going to get killed for it. He only lived because Walt cared about him enough to go full badass to protect him. Walt just coldly killing those two fuckers was when he really became the actual "Heisenberg."

Also Gale was not exactly a civilian. Much like Walt, he knew the game he was playing and that people were getting hurt, and just didn't care, for his lolbertarian reasons (which I actually more or less agree with but he knew getting killed was a possibility in the game).

Jesse, unlike almost all the other characters in the show, had some fundamental decency. He was just a goddamn idiot, lazy, and morally weak. Despite his concern for children in particular being the one thing that would get him to self-sacrifice, his stupid actions led to practically every child he cared about getting harmed, from his own younger brother to the kid those gangsters killed, to the kid Todd killed, to his girlfriend's kid whose mom got killed (also by Todd), because of Jesse escaping. Oh and of course Brock ALSO got poisoned by Walt thanks to Jesse.

It's really hard to pick out actually moral characters in any of these shows. They're incredibly rare, and so far as I can tell, none of them are main characters. One of the few examples I can think of is Nacho's dad. I think he's the only person in either show to point out the obvious fact that revenge isn't justice and nothing Mike can do is any less evil gangster bullshit than what the other "side" of the dispute did.

The closest any main character got was Hank, and even he screwed the pooch in the end because he just had to be The Man.

 

[A-Stump]

I've been rewatching BB and have come to the conclusion that it takes a lot of plot armor for Jesse and Walt to have survived Gus's wrath, especially after BCS. Like an insane amount. Everything we learn about Gus tells us that they should have been dead as dogshit, Krabby secret formula or not, but no. It's actually kind of distracting now that it's in my head and kind of ruins things for me.

 

[BetterFuckChuck]

tbh ive always felt in BrBa that gus is a mary sue and i like BCS's handling of him better

 

[TheHarbinger]

I've been rewatching BB and have come to the conclusion that it takes a lot of plot armor for Jesse and Walt to have survived Gus's wrath, especially after BCS. Like an insane amount. Everything we learn about Gus tells us that they should have been dead as dogshit, Krabby secret formula or not, but no. It's actually kind of distracting now that it's in my head and kind of ruins things for me.

Mike and Gus are like ruthless stone cold maniacs with Dune level "plans within plans" in Better Call Saul. They are arranging for all sorts of hits and attacks on rivals and shielding themselves from retaliation and playing as safe as they can. With the one exception being Mike drinking himself to stupor then fighting a street gang and getting knifed. Mike is wiping out entire teams of cartel hitmen by himself. Gus is like 700 6D chess level moves ahead of Lalo by leaving a secret gun in the meth lab like he is some ultra cognizant psychic. Mike is ambushing cops and killing them and getting away with it. Gus is magically figuring out that Nacho switched the pills on Hector. "I know what you did". Like he has access to the BCS scripts in his head.

Then in BB they become retarded. Gus is using kids as hitmen and attracting tons of negative police attention to his cartel. Gus is having open meetings with tattooed gangbangers in his office. Gus is meeting with Gale in his apartment complex and inviting Jesse to his house for dinner. When Jesse is a known drug suspect in a dozen crimes and has been regularly tailed by the DEA. And Mike is even more of an idiot who thinks plastic cuffs will hold Walter and is SHOCKED that Walter escaped. And lets Walter meet him in the middle of nowhere and gets shot within one minute. And also loses all of his money by putting it all in one single account under a real name like a total moron.

Gus and Mike are idiots in BB. Half of the plot armor in BB is that the villains become retarded whenever it is convenient. Like Hank meeting Walt in the desert with NO BACKUP. Or Mike meeting Walt in the desert with NO BACKUP. Or Hank trying to arrest Jesse in his RV without calling for backup and LEAVING the scene unattended. Walt and Jesse are poorly written dumb characters. But the DEA and rival cartel leaders are basically clinically retarded. Breaking Bad is like Dune or Boardwalk Empire but everyone has an IQ of 40.

 

[A-Stump]

Mike and Gus are like ruthless stone cold maniacs with Dune level "plans within plans" in Better Call Saul. They are arranging for all sorts of hits and attacks on rivals and shielding themselves from retaliation and playing as safe as they can. With the one exception being Mike drinking himself to stupor then fighting a street gang and getting knifed. Mike is wiping out entire teams of cartel hitmen by himself. Gus is like 700 6D chess level moves ahead of Lalo by leaving a secret gun in the meth lab like he is some ultra cognizant psychic. Mike is ambushing cops and killing them and getting away with it. Gus is magically figuring out that Nacho switched the pills on Hector. "I know what you did". Like he has access to the BCS scripts in his head.

Then in BB they become retarded. Gus is using kids as hitmen and attracting tons of negative police attention to his cartel. Gus is having open meetings with tattooed gangbangers in his office. Gus is meeting with Gale in his apartment complex and inviting Jesse to his house for dinner. When Jesse is a known drug suspect in a dozen crimes and has been regularly tailed by the DEA. And Mike is even more of an idiot who thinks plastic cuffs will hold Walter and is SHOCKED that Walter escaped. And lets Walter meet him in the middle of nowhere and gets shot within one minute. And also loses all of his money by putting it all in one single account under a real name like a total moron.

Gus and Mike are idiots in BB. Half of the plot armor in BB is that the villains become retarded whenever it is convenient. Like Hank meeting Walt in the desert with NO BACKUP. Or Mike meeting Walt in the desert with NO BACKUP. Or Hank trying to arrest Jesse in his RV without calling for backup and LEAVING the scene unattended. Walt and Jesse are poorly written dumb characters. But the DEA and rival cartel leaders are basically clinically retarded. Breaking Bad is like Dune or Boardwalk Empire but everyone has an IQ of 40.

Gus was keeping tabs on the DEA, Hector, and Walt/Jesse. Yet only one of those tabs led him to being tricked and killed, despite him having showed a supernatural sense of avoiding danger only an episode prior (when he recognized something was amiss with his car). He had previously walked into sniper fire, swallowed an incredibly dangerous poison, and generally fucked with the entire cartel. That's even before we know what he did in BCS. The dude's entire persona was never making a mistake and making sure everything was pristine and orderly. You could see that all the way down to how meticulously he ran his chicken joints despite it being a front. Despite all of that he does nothing but fuck up over and over again with Walt. Like, they had their recipe. Gail had it in his book. They had watched cooks performed over and over again, and had it recorded. A dude followed them around and noted every process. But yeah I guess they couldn't hire a guy who took high school chemistry class to tell them what was going on.

 

[Internet War Criminal]

Gus was keeping tabs on the DEA, Hector, and Walt/Jesse. Yet only one of those tabs led him to being tricked and killed, despite him having showed a supernatural sense of avoiding danger only an episode prior (when he recognized something was amiss with his car). He had previously walked into sniper fire, swallowed an incredibly dangerous poison, and generally fucked with the entire cartel. That's even before we know what he did in BCS. The dude's entire persona was never making a mistake and making sure everything was pristine and orderly. You could see that all the way down to how meticulously he ran his chicken joints despite it being a front. Despite all of that he does nothing but fuck up over and over again with Walt. Like, they had their recipe. Gail had it in his book. They had watched cooks performed over and over again, and had it recorded. A dude followed them around and noted every process. But yeah I guess they couldn't hire a guy who took high school chemistry class to tell them what was going on.

I think that's the theme, here, that Gus is such a perfectionist he wouldn't tolerate someone who made a batch of meth that was anything more than a few percent lower than what he could get from Walt, and that as a result he waited and waited and waited until Jesse was ready, by which time it was too late because that left enough time for Walt to scheme and ultimately kill him.

 

[A-Stump]

I think that's the theme, here, that Gus is such a perfectionist he wouldn't tolerate someone who made a batch of meth that was anything more than a few percent lower than what he could get from Walt, and that as a result he waited and waited and waited until Jesse was ready, by which time it was too late because that left enough time for Walt to scheme and ultimately kill him.

I guess my problem is that we knew the things that Gus would do to protect his secrets because of BCS and it makes the events of BB that much more hard to believe. Gus orchestrated the murder of a foreign national over having loose lips and flying the coop but he decided to sit on his hands with a dude who let his wife know what was going on and basically made it seem like he tipped the DEA off? Like I said it just feels so dumb and contrived given in hindsight given what BCS did for the character.

 

[Ishtar]

Gus wasn't directly hiring kids-his dealers were. So it was much further down the chain than him. Funny thing is Walt is repeatedly warned/treated as a bad investment-Mike tells Saul to ignore him, Gus doesn't want to do business after he fucks up the first meeting, and the Salamancas don't even understand why Gus is shielding walt from their retaliation.

Walt causes as much damage as he does-because hardnosed criminals like Mike and Gus are willing to work with him, and not just ignore him and let him die/get arrested on his own. I get its because his product is that good, that said Mike astutely recognizes Walt is a destabilizing presence "a time bomb", and Walt's relationship to Gus reeks of being unreliable-partner is a druggie, says he doesn't want to cook, then kills two dealers to save Jesse, burning a bridge, then kills Gale(whether or not Gus was planning on killing him-it meant that quietly doing his job was going to be over from then on), and just blowing up the well-oiled machine that Mike is so fond of. Gus is an extremely patient employer for not firing Walt as long as he did. Even continuing to employ him after Walt totally burned the bridge of them even speaking.

The entire plot of BB would be avoided if Saul was less interested in making bank and had just taken Mike's advice. Walt's ego, Jesse's unpredictable nature, and the combination of them both is a massive spanner in what was a well-oiled and fairly disciplined operation.

Really Walt is a poor criminal-despite better criminals be willing to take a chance on him and explain to him how to operate-Walt just refuses to play along with Gus, doesn't listen to Mike's counsel, mostly because Mike is paying off Gus's guys-somehow forgetting that if they blab, he goes down like everyone else, and being unwilling to let Jesse come into his own-because he can't handle the thought of someone being better than him. Note that Walt gets very anxious/afraid when he realizes Jesse doesn't need him after his and Gus's excursion to Mexico.

If future gangsters take any lesson from the Heisenberg saga-it's not "work with a cancer ridden chemistry teacher genius" it would be "don't do business with an ego driven team wrecker who won't shut up and work in the established hierarchy and make his damn money".

As for "being the man"-Gus, Walt, and Hank all have this. Gus has to be there to see Hector die, Hank has to be the law man who brings down his evil brother-in-law, and Walt has to run his own empire despite his marriage collapsing and lacking the infrastructure for it-they literally are cooking in people's houses, under disguise. Walt doesn't have anyone loyal to him, but Jesse-he just makes associates, Lydia, Jack's gang, Mike, Todd-all of whom turn on him. The instability of this arrangement never seems to occur to him.

 

[TitusOvid]

Jimmy cucked out at the end. He had a sweet deal and blew it.