US Cloudflare: "Terminating Service for 8Chan"


Terminating Service for 8Chan

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August 05, 2019 1:44AM


The mass shootings in El Paso, Texas and Dayton, Ohio are horrific tragedies. In the case of the El Paso shooting, the suspected terrorist gunman appears to have been inspired by the forum website known as 8chan. Based on evidence we've seen, it appears that he posted a screed to the site immediately before beginning his terrifying attack on the El Paso Walmart killing 20 people.

Unfortunately, this is not an isolated incident. Nearly the same thing happened on 8chan before the terror attack in Christchurch, New Zealand. The El Paso shooter specifically referenced the Christchurch incident and appears to have been inspired by the largely unmoderated discussions on 8chan which glorified the previous massacre. In a separate tragedy, the suspected killer in the Poway, California synagogue shooting also posted a hate-filled “open letter” on 8chan. 8chan has repeatedly proven itself to be a cesspool of hate.

8chan is among the more than 19 million Internet properties that use Cloudflare's service. We just sent notice that we are terminating 8chan as a customer effective at midnight tonight Pacific Time. The rationale is simple: they have proven themselves to be lawless and that lawlessness has caused multiple tragic deaths. Even if 8chan may not have violated the letter of the law in refusing to moderate their hate-filled community, they have created an environment that revels in violating its spirit.

We do not take this decision lightly. Cloudflare is a network provider. In pursuit of our goal of helping build a better internet, we’ve considered it important to provide our security services broadly to make sure as many users as possible are secure, and thereby making cyberattacks less attractive — regardless of the content of those websites. Many of our customers run platforms of their own on top of our network. If our policies are more conservative than theirs it effectively undercuts their ability to run their services and set their own policies. We reluctantly tolerate content that we find reprehensible, but we draw the line at platforms that have demonstrated they directly inspire tragic events and are lawless by design. 8chan has crossed that line. It will therefore no longer be allowed to use our services.

What Will Happen Next

Unfortunately, we have seen this situation before and so we have a good sense of what will play out. Almost exactly two years ago we made the determination to kick another disgusting site off Cloudflare's network: the Daily Stormer. That caused a brief interruption in the site's operations but they quickly came back online using a Cloudflare competitor. That competitor at the time promoted as a feature the fact that they didn't respond to legal process. Today, the Daily Stormer is still available and still disgusting. They have bragged that they have more readers than ever. They are no longer Cloudflare's problem, but they remain the Internet's problem.

I have little doubt we'll see the same happen with 8chan. While removing 8chan from our network takes heat off of us, it does nothing to address why hateful sites fester online. It does nothing to address why mass shootings occur. It does nothing to address why portions of the population feel so disenchanted they turn to hate. In taking this action we've solved our own problem, but we haven't solved the Internet's.

In the two years since the Daily Stormer what we have done to try and solve the Internet’s deeper problem is engage with law enforcement and civil society organizations to try and find solutions. Among other things, that resulted in us cooperating around monitoring potential hate sites on our network and notifying law enforcement when there was content that contained an indication of potential violence. We will continue to work within the legal process to share information when we can to hopefully prevent horrific acts of violence. We believe this is our responsibility and, given Cloudflare's scale and reach, we are hopeful we will continue to make progress toward solving the deeper problem.

Rule of Law

We continue to feel incredibly uncomfortable about playing the role of content arbiter and do not plan to exercise it often. Some have wrongly speculated this is due to some conception of the United States' First Amendment. That is incorrect. First, we are a private company and not bound by the First Amendment. Second, the vast majority of our customers, and more than 50% of our revenue, comes from outside the United States where the First Amendment and similarly libertarian freedom of speech protections do not apply. The only relevance of the First Amendment in this case and others is that it allows us to choose who we do and do not do business with; it does not obligate us to do business with everyone.

Instead our concern has centered around another much more universal idea: the Rule of Law. The Rule of Law requires policies be transparent and consistent. While it has been articulated as a framework for how governments ensure their legitimacy, we have used it as a touchstone when we think about our own policies.

We have been successful because we have a very effective technological solution that provides security, performance, and reliability in an affordable and easy-to-use way. As a result of that, a huge portion of the Internet now sits behind our network. 10% of the top million, 17% of the top 100,000, and 19% of the top 10,000 Internet properties use us today. 10% of the Fortune 1,000 are paying Cloudflare customers.

Cloudflare is not a government. While we've been successful as a company, that does not give us the political legitimacy to make determinations on what content is good and bad. Nor should it. Questions around content are real societal issues that need politically legitimate solutions. We will continue to engage with lawmakers around the world as they set the boundaries of what is acceptable in their countries through due process of law. And we will comply with those boundaries when and where they are set.

Europe, for example, has taken a lead in this area. As we've seen governments there attempt to address hate and terror content online, there is recognition that different obligations should be placed on companies that organize and promote content — like Facebook and YouTube — rather than those that are mere conduits for that content. Conduits, like Cloudflare, are not visible to users and therefore cannot be transparent and consistent about their policies.
The unresolved question is how should the law deal with platforms that ignore or actively thwart the Rule of Law? That's closer to the situation we have seen with the Daily Stormer and 8chan. They are lawless platforms. In cases like these, where platforms have been designed to be lawless and unmoderated, and where the platforms have demonstrated their ability to cause real harm, the law may need additional remedies. We and other technology companies need to work with policy makers in order to help them understand the problem and define these remedies. And, in some cases, it may mean moving enforcement mechanisms further down the technical stack.

Our Obligation

Cloudflare's mission is to help build a better Internet. At some level firing 8chan as a customer is easy. They are uniquely lawless and that lawlessness has contributed to multiple horrific tragedies. Enough is enough.

What's hard is defining the policy that we can enforce transparently and consistently going forward. We, and other technology companies like us that enable the great parts of the Internet, have an obligation to help propose solutions to deal with the parts we're not proud of. That's our obligation and we're committed to it.

Unfortunately the action we take today won’t fix hate online. It will almost certainly not even remove 8chan from the Internet. But it is the right thing to do. Hate online is a real issue. Here are some organizations that have active work to help address it:
Our whole Cloudflare team’s thoughts are with the families grieving in El Paso, Texas and Dayton, Ohio this evening.
 
Sure but these days it's all about the narrative. You don't need facts, just 2 or 3 journalists and a blog post from Holt or the ADL and it's gone. They've already tried with the Christchurch stuff, the E3 leak etc.

While its possible we may see a larger crackdown in the wake of this, I have a hard time believeing this incident of all things is going to be the end of the line when Christchurch was an undeniably more shocking and horrific event. If anything was gonna unplug this site, it was probably going to be that.

Looks like Null is already ahead of the game though.
 
You say that as if there's a significant amount of antifa shooters.
That only barely exists a thing. A thing dwarfed by fashy shooters
Not for a lack of trying, but they usually get ventilated before they rack up a body count, or gripe on r/chapotraphouse about not being able to own guns because of suicidal tendencies and schizophrenia
 
what matters to cloudflare isn't how big the event is, but how loud the screeching on twitter is.

I have no evidence to prove this at the moment, but it appears to me that companies have actually started ignoring Twitter screeching because at this point the volume of it is just so staggering that its become background static. People are quick to blame Twitter or hitpieces, but I'm willing to bet that nothing actually happens until the right investor or shareholder starts to get uncomfortable. Twitter and hitpieces can make them uncomfortable, but its certainly not as direct as Twitter Noise = Banned Get Out and not always a sure thing.

Edit: Further thought, they have probably been ignoring Twitter noise for years now, but haven't actually said anything about it since it would ruin the illusion of companies interacting with the public via social media.
 
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More important target are hell of better protected than ordinary peasants, I am talking even rank and file bureaucrats of local significance that no one would recognize on national stage. No mass shooter wants to go out like a dud without a chance to fame. I don't see any results coming from it because like a hydra, there is a line to replace anyone in power. It's like mafia, taking out one or two bosses achieves nothing, but gradual take over the sources of income will result in immediate feedback. It's all about money and power, people are dime a dozen, even in organized crime syndicates.
I mean journalists, but yeah the important people that would actually have a noticeable lasting effect on national politics and discussion that would have terrible life-changing consequences for everybody are highly protected. But again, if people like Rand Paul and Tucker Carlson can be threatened or attacked at their homes, then surely people such as Don Lemon or even DNC presidential candidates like Kamala Harris could be gotten to with some mild difficulty.
 
Man, this is the shit that gets me mad at the internet. Saying kiwifarms supports the Christchurch shooting because they want to preserve everything is insanity. These are the same retards tearing down statues and rewriting history because there's some things in it that hurts their feelings. They can't see that some things can have both good and negative side effects, aside from their depression medication.
And rewriting history causes us to lose the learned lessons and are doomed to repeat it. It's just so frustrating.
 
Pretty much the only reason KiwiFarms isn't on the radar is that it's fairly unknown compared to sites like 4chan and 8chan. Hell just a year ago, pretty much the only users who know about this site were lolcows themselves and/or people following lolcows. It definitely grew a bit over the last year, but not enough to be under most people's radars.

It doesn't matter that unlike 8chan, we actively condemn and even make fun of mass shooters, because the media can easily take anything we say out of context, or even just flat out lie, to fool people into thinking we condone this type of shit. Hell some minor news outlets have already done that after Null told the NZPD to fuck off.
 
Cloudflare engaged in identity politics posturing during this pride month by doing a pride version of its logo. It was the first time I saw them do it, but perhaps they did it previous years too. To anyone using their service that was the sign to jump ship.

Any business which engages in identity politics can and WILL fuck you given the opportunity.

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Everyone's favorite gaming forum is happy.

I propose we send all of 8chan to Resetera. Keep Kiwifarms Great.
 
So are they taking up the responsibility of moderating every single site on their platform now?
Because that sounds expensive.
Not really. It was super-easy and convenient to shut down a site that churns out mass-shooters like a chinese sweatshop. Cloudflare and a lot of these other internet services are actually super-lax with a lot of problematic content, as many others have pointed out in this thread. It is in Cloudflare's interest to make money, so they're not going to go on a banning rampage out of nowhere. They've actually defended 8chan in the past, using a lot of the same reasoning that other posters in this thread have brought up.


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Literally all a site has to do is have SOME modicum of moderation in order to stay safe, and /pol/ couldn't even do THAT right. This was a decision Cloudflare could make easily without getting into the muddy waters of content moderation, because body counts that high go beyond the pale for a lot of people. Believe it or not, nobody really likes 8ch, not even the people who use it. From what I've seen here the only reason kiwis care about 8ch is due to it being a massive liability for future internet cleansing.

Just moderate your fucking site instead of letting stormfags sperg so hard you get shitcanned. It won't become a commie utopia overnight if you exercise some amount of discretion.
 
If possible, we should use our weaponized autism to try and see if any ANTIFA members open their mouths about being involved in a DDoS attack against 8chan. You bet they are gonna try. We should spread also the word for people to keep their IoT devices secured to prevent them from being used in such attack. Usually these people rent from botnets. However, if they aren't using botnets, odds are they will be behind either TOR or a VPN.

The success of certain types of DDoS attacks will depend on how many ISPs have rp-filter. Spoofing isn't as effective if the ISPs are configured correctly for rp-filter. That makes them have to use IPs within their own subnet, which means their ISP would be known even if their IP is not. ISP would identify their MAC. Providing they haven't rigged it for plausible deniability, they aren't using botnets, and they aren't using a VPN while using their own home connection for the attack, they could be traced.

However unlikely, I would love to see some ANTIFA thug getting hauled away for a federal felony. I would love to say "I hope you like Federal Fuck-You-In-The-Ass Prison!"
 
I am not looking forward to a bunch of 8chan refugees washing up on our shores. Glad to see Null is trying to keep a few steps ahead, though.

I'm not sure how big 8chan is, but I've always gotten the impression that KF is smaller and has a lower profile. I don't think this place is next, though I'm sure people will be trying very hard to make it happen.
 
I am not looking forward to a bunch of 8chan refugees washing up on our shores. Glad to see Null is trying to keep a few steps ahead, though.

I'm not sure how big 8chan is, but I've always gotten the impression that KF is smaller and has a lower profile. I don't think this place is next, though I'm sure people will be trying very hard to make it happen.
How do you tell the difference between an 8ch poster and the average A&H kiwi, aside from account creation date?
 
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