US Cloudflare: "Terminating Service for 8Chan"


Terminating Service for 8Chan

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August 05, 2019 1:44AM


The mass shootings in El Paso, Texas and Dayton, Ohio are horrific tragedies. In the case of the El Paso shooting, the suspected terrorist gunman appears to have been inspired by the forum website known as 8chan. Based on evidence we've seen, it appears that he posted a screed to the site immediately before beginning his terrifying attack on the El Paso Walmart killing 20 people.

Unfortunately, this is not an isolated incident. Nearly the same thing happened on 8chan before the terror attack in Christchurch, New Zealand. The El Paso shooter specifically referenced the Christchurch incident and appears to have been inspired by the largely unmoderated discussions on 8chan which glorified the previous massacre. In a separate tragedy, the suspected killer in the Poway, California synagogue shooting also posted a hate-filled “open letter” on 8chan. 8chan has repeatedly proven itself to be a cesspool of hate.

8chan is among the more than 19 million Internet properties that use Cloudflare's service. We just sent notice that we are terminating 8chan as a customer effective at midnight tonight Pacific Time. The rationale is simple: they have proven themselves to be lawless and that lawlessness has caused multiple tragic deaths. Even if 8chan may not have violated the letter of the law in refusing to moderate their hate-filled community, they have created an environment that revels in violating its spirit.

We do not take this decision lightly. Cloudflare is a network provider. In pursuit of our goal of helping build a better internet, we’ve considered it important to provide our security services broadly to make sure as many users as possible are secure, and thereby making cyberattacks less attractive — regardless of the content of those websites. Many of our customers run platforms of their own on top of our network. If our policies are more conservative than theirs it effectively undercuts their ability to run their services and set their own policies. We reluctantly tolerate content that we find reprehensible, but we draw the line at platforms that have demonstrated they directly inspire tragic events and are lawless by design. 8chan has crossed that line. It will therefore no longer be allowed to use our services.

What Will Happen Next

Unfortunately, we have seen this situation before and so we have a good sense of what will play out. Almost exactly two years ago we made the determination to kick another disgusting site off Cloudflare's network: the Daily Stormer. That caused a brief interruption in the site's operations but they quickly came back online using a Cloudflare competitor. That competitor at the time promoted as a feature the fact that they didn't respond to legal process. Today, the Daily Stormer is still available and still disgusting. They have bragged that they have more readers than ever. They are no longer Cloudflare's problem, but they remain the Internet's problem.

I have little doubt we'll see the same happen with 8chan. While removing 8chan from our network takes heat off of us, it does nothing to address why hateful sites fester online. It does nothing to address why mass shootings occur. It does nothing to address why portions of the population feel so disenchanted they turn to hate. In taking this action we've solved our own problem, but we haven't solved the Internet's.

In the two years since the Daily Stormer what we have done to try and solve the Internet’s deeper problem is engage with law enforcement and civil society organizations to try and find solutions. Among other things, that resulted in us cooperating around monitoring potential hate sites on our network and notifying law enforcement when there was content that contained an indication of potential violence. We will continue to work within the legal process to share information when we can to hopefully prevent horrific acts of violence. We believe this is our responsibility and, given Cloudflare's scale and reach, we are hopeful we will continue to make progress toward solving the deeper problem.

Rule of Law

We continue to feel incredibly uncomfortable about playing the role of content arbiter and do not plan to exercise it often. Some have wrongly speculated this is due to some conception of the United States' First Amendment. That is incorrect. First, we are a private company and not bound by the First Amendment. Second, the vast majority of our customers, and more than 50% of our revenue, comes from outside the United States where the First Amendment and similarly libertarian freedom of speech protections do not apply. The only relevance of the First Amendment in this case and others is that it allows us to choose who we do and do not do business with; it does not obligate us to do business with everyone.

Instead our concern has centered around another much more universal idea: the Rule of Law. The Rule of Law requires policies be transparent and consistent. While it has been articulated as a framework for how governments ensure their legitimacy, we have used it as a touchstone when we think about our own policies.

We have been successful because we have a very effective technological solution that provides security, performance, and reliability in an affordable and easy-to-use way. As a result of that, a huge portion of the Internet now sits behind our network. 10% of the top million, 17% of the top 100,000, and 19% of the top 10,000 Internet properties use us today. 10% of the Fortune 1,000 are paying Cloudflare customers.

Cloudflare is not a government. While we've been successful as a company, that does not give us the political legitimacy to make determinations on what content is good and bad. Nor should it. Questions around content are real societal issues that need politically legitimate solutions. We will continue to engage with lawmakers around the world as they set the boundaries of what is acceptable in their countries through due process of law. And we will comply with those boundaries when and where they are set.

Europe, for example, has taken a lead in this area. As we've seen governments there attempt to address hate and terror content online, there is recognition that different obligations should be placed on companies that organize and promote content — like Facebook and YouTube — rather than those that are mere conduits for that content. Conduits, like Cloudflare, are not visible to users and therefore cannot be transparent and consistent about their policies.
The unresolved question is how should the law deal with platforms that ignore or actively thwart the Rule of Law? That's closer to the situation we have seen with the Daily Stormer and 8chan. They are lawless platforms. In cases like these, where platforms have been designed to be lawless and unmoderated, and where the platforms have demonstrated their ability to cause real harm, the law may need additional remedies. We and other technology companies need to work with policy makers in order to help them understand the problem and define these remedies. And, in some cases, it may mean moving enforcement mechanisms further down the technical stack.

Our Obligation

Cloudflare's mission is to help build a better Internet. At some level firing 8chan as a customer is easy. They are uniquely lawless and that lawlessness has contributed to multiple horrific tragedies. Enough is enough.

What's hard is defining the policy that we can enforce transparently and consistently going forward. We, and other technology companies like us that enable the great parts of the Internet, have an obligation to help propose solutions to deal with the parts we're not proud of. That's our obligation and we're committed to it.

Unfortunately the action we take today won’t fix hate online. It will almost certainly not even remove 8chan from the Internet. But it is the right thing to do. Hate online is a real issue. Here are some organizations that have active work to help address it:
Our whole Cloudflare team’s thoughts are with the families grieving in El Paso, Texas and Dayton, Ohio this evening.
 
I'm not sure how big 8chan is, but I've always gotten the impression that KF is smaller and has a lower profile. I don't think this place is next, though I'm sure people will be trying very hard to make it happen.
8ch is far larger, despite being dead and gay for a couple years now. They have a much higher alexa rank than the Farms.

I wouldn't sweat it anyway. They were barely inconvenienced by Cloudflare.
 
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What's up with this guy
saltycripple.png
 
How do you tell the difference between an 8ch poster and the average A&H kiwi, aside from account creation date?
I mostly lurk the Munchie threads, a few lolcow threads, and sometimes check in on ADF and a few others. I don't usually go into A&H. I saw how quickly /pol/ type idiots shat up the Stonetoss thread, though, so I'm not optimistic about what they'd bring to the site.
 
How do you tell the difference between an 8ch poster and the average A&H kiwi, aside from account creation date?
lol you don't.

Literally all a site has to do is have SOME modicum of moderation in order to stay safe, and /pol/ couldn't even do THAT right. This was a decision Cloudflare could make easily without getting into the muddy waters of content moderation, because body counts that high go beyond the pale for a lot of people. Believe it or not, nobody really likes 8ch, not even the people who use it. From what I've seen here the only reason kiwis care about 8ch is due to it being a massive liability for future internet cleansing.

Just moderate your fucking site instead of letting stormfags sperg so hard you get shitcanned. It won't become a commie utopia overnight if you exercise some amount of discretion.
This is some dumb shit though. That livestream of the Kiwi shooter was reportedly pulled down on 8/pol/ after like ten minutes, quicker than FB's reaction. On that subject, FB has a lot of livestreams of horrible things like animal abuse or beatings that don't get pulled down on time, why don't we pull down that site too?
 
It's sending a message that it's going to be a lot harder to run your own discussion board unless you tard wrangle your userbase hard to the point where you're seen as a janny...you know just like what big tech companies do.


It is almost like there was a community decency act signed into law to specifically defend lightly moderated forums almost identical to chans. It's almost like the big tech companies hide behind this same legal defense, while decrying the original target's use of it's protection.

Remember if they can't have the government shut you down, they will have the bank shut you down. If they can't have the bank shut you down, they will have the ISP shut your down. If they can't have the ISP shut you down, they will have the ISP remove DDOS protections and let the mob attack.
 
They've moved DDoS protection to sybil.jp, a "company" (really just kids) bought by Rob Monster (Epik) and consolidated under "Anonymize, Inc." a VPN service also bought and owned by Rob. They recently moved all their prefixes to Anonymize, Inc. ASN.

Their only upstream for the 8chan prefix is Voxility, Romanian company who has been in the DDoS mitigation space for a while. They are fairly large network and pretty competent, written custom firmware for Cisco kit to better handle high volume traffic for example. Also fairly indifferent to abuse reports and twitterati outrage. They don't have capacity of CF but they will tolerate a few 100gbit/s if you pay them enough. Romania is a shit hole but they have world-class internet infra.

If Rob seeks to exert editorial control over 8ch, they should just move to voxility directly and get the same service. They could also set up their own registrar (only costs like $7k) if they want to keep .net. Verisign could still ban them but that's unprecedented; more likely US govt would seize it or maybe public resolvers (like cuckflare's 1.1.1.1) block it.

What's up with this guy
View attachment 877070

It is not any secret that 8ch origin is AS32335, so I'm not sure why he is act triumphant. They can just advertise private route to Voxility or move origin. I think Brennan is just amateur code monkey and not understand networking.
 
This is some dumb shit though. That livestream of the Kiwi shooter was reportedly pulled down on 8/pol/ after like ten minutes, quicker than FB's reaction. On that subject, FB has a lot of livestreams of horrible things like animal abuse or beatings that don't get pulled down on time, why don't we pull down that site too?
Fearmongering and the illusion of doing something? Try to claim that Facebook is a hive of scum and villainy that starts every day with planning the next mass shooting and the average person will laugh at you and ask how many prescription medications you're supposed to be taking. But put the blame on a website with a somewhat sleazy reputation that your audience doesn't use, and suddenly your claims that the users maintain hit lists and rape lists now don't seem quite so outlandish. Sure, all you've really accomplished is scaring or annoying a whole lot of people, but at least you gave the appearance of attempting to "fix" a "wrong" even if you haven't actually done anything to address the actual problems.
 
So will there be any way to access the site now that doesn't cost an arm and a leg to figure out?
 
There is no shortage of Cloudflare alternatives, and anyone crowing about how this will end 8chan is a moron.

However, I do agree that this sets a worrying precedent of what is to come, especially during the 2020 election season.

And when those Cloudflare alternatives take on 8chan as a customer, someone finds out they're just renting most of their hardware and get their supplier to shut them down

 
There is no shortage of Cloudflare alternatives
One of them already bit the dust because they didn't own their servers and they were just cut off along with infinitychan and daily stormer. Which is sad, but brings up an important lesson.

If any internet service doesn't own its infrastructure, it's shit.
If you VPN service provides exit nodes everywhere on Earth, there's a big chance they rent it from glowing niggers, so it's shit.
 
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4chan has had people post images of the bodies of their dead victims and it doesn't get clamped down at nearly as much as 8chan has in recent history. What's the difference? Just a few manifestos or is it a bit to far from a certain agenda point certain entities want to enforce? 4chan hasn't been the same for a while, not saying it's mild shit still goes on but 8chan has had quite a few far from politically correct characters posting there, few even have threads on here like S4T and Endomorphosis two that come to mind immediately. I just feel this isn't mainly due to the manifestos this is a bit more than that.

It might end up being a trickle down effect, go after what is considered the most radical and censoring the rest little by little that doesn't fit your world view/agenda. We saw it with Alex Jones, now their going after others that aren't nearly as loony. This is probably going to start happening more with sites to.
 
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  • Agree
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"What happens next? Well, they go to our competitor who won't deplatform them and do better than ever because deplatforming creates a Streisand effect."

Yeah real convincing message there, Cloudflare.
 
Someone already tried to shoot Youtube, though.
nasim self-destruct.jpg

Know wut? Maybe we're approaching this the wrong way. Maybe its pointless to try taking the high road in a world so filled with corruption, where only one side is playing by the rules. We should all join Antifa and steer it towards full exceptionalism - demand all businesses close down, redistribute all of the money and just go full whole hog crazy. Gin up an army to go after the corporations - even the ones who are funding Antifa, and stage protests in front of their buildings, demanding redistribution of wealth. Go look up pro-immigrant rich people, get them to sign up for a special program for immigrant assistance, and then knock on their doors with an immigrant family and cameras in tow. Call them racist if they don't take the entire family in. Just cram everything the Woke-o-crats say they want, right down their gullets good and hard. Film it all and show the world what hypocrites they are if they refuse.

If you can't beat em, join them....then beat 'em.
"and stage protests in front of their buildings,"

The only reason Antifa escapes the ire of the law is because they are protected by those powerful entities. Fun concepts! but I don't know how valid accelerationism really is. It seems to only damage the righteous and empower the despots.
 
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