#Comicsgate - The Culture Wars Hit The Funny Books!

  • Want to keep track of this thread?
    Accounts can bookmark posts, watch threads for updates, and jump back to where you stopped reading.
    Create account
On the topic of stores and deals and what not, I have to imagine Barnes & Noble would be the best deal someone in the indie comics/books/graphic novel scene could ever hope for. I'm not sure how common Barnes & Nobles are nation-wide but they're fairly prevalent in my area. It's basically the only place where you will see young people openly displaying an interest in reading. They won't just respect your book, they'll set up an entire display and aggressively promote it to a crowd of potential customers you would otherwise never be able to reach. Certainly an enticing prospect for any up-and-coming comic creator.
Well... Manga has sold very well at B&N.

Would comics? I dunno. I presume B&N does sell comics and graphic novels. I presume people buy them, even if sales are down in a relative sense.

Ultimately, I don't think WalMart is a good fit for either one. And that hypothesis comes before we debate the merits of RR, or anything else AA publishes, in a vacuum. I don't think Cyberfrog books would sell well at WM. Nor Kamen America. Nor any comic, really. I'm not playing favorites here.

I think this deal was made with the wrong retail establishment. Just because WalMart has a gazillion stores nationwide (and will one day buy out Weyland-Yutani) doesn't mean they're the appropriate sales vector for everything under the sun.

Also, you're right that people who read a lot go B&N before WM for their reading material. It's an entirely different clientele than most WalMart shoppers.
 
Last edited:
Ultimately, I don't think WalMart is a good fit for either one. And that hypothesis comes before we debate the merits of RR, or anything else AA publishes, in a vacuum. I don't think Cyberfrog books would sell well at WM. Nor Kamen America. Nor any comic, really. I'm not playing favorites here.
Care to elaborate why? I don't see why not. Everybody shops at Walmart (unless they're rich and/or snooty) and I can't see how getting on the shelf there would be bad for any product that wants widespread exposure.

I thought the Walmart deal was a great win for Allegiance. It's too bad they fucked the pooch with it by both screwing the crowdfundees and not getting the later books on the shelves in Walmart at the time. But under more competent and prepared leadership, that could have been a game-changing opportunity.
 
I think Ethan has made it very clear he doesn't dig Mitch the man.
It's pretty gay to make posts kissing the ass of the guy who used you and your followers to get his venture going and then threw everyone under the bus at the first opportunity.

I have no issue acknowledging Ethan's skills as a salesman, showman or draftsman because they objectively exist but you won't find me shining the big fat faggot's wheels unsolicited because his lack of character disgusts me and that would be pretty gay of me.

Care to elaborate why? I don't see why not. Everybody shops at Walmart (unless they're rich and/or snooty) and I can't see how getting on the shelf there would be bad for any product that wants widespread exposure.

I thought the Walmart deal was a great win for Allegiance. It's too bad they fucked the pooch with it by both screwing the crowdfundees and not getting the later books on the shelves in Walmart at the time. But under more competent and prepared leadership, that could have been a game-changing opportunity.
The Walmart deal had real potential but I think Mitch screwed the pooch on price point and content.

$4.98 for a standard size floppy isn't steep in a comic shop but it is in a department store that caters to discount shoppers as a rule.

Also, the content of Mitch's books appears to be the books he wanted to make rather than the books most likely to appeal to the demo walking down the book isle at Walmart. His books look like they are tailored to the Barnes and Noble demo when he should probably have done comics more likely to appeal to a younger set who might nag their parents into picking them up for them. Straight forward accessible cape shit and Archie style books might have done better.

All of the AA books seem to target the indy comics reader rather than going for the kind of mass appeal you need to move hundreds of thousands of units positioned between the torn bodice romance novels and the Peppa Pig coloring books.

That was a miss.

EDIT: Honestly, Kamen America would have been a better fit considering potential traffic. Simple straightforward colorful and fun looking is more likely to catch the eye than angry looking cowboys no one ever heard of or a beautiful but not particularly striking Butch Juice cover for some kind of historical fantasy.


After a few meetings with WalMart and others, it became clear to me that getting distribution in WalMart and Target was easy. It was just a matter of signing an agreement with the distributor.
I think Peter Simeti would disagree. There are considerable barriers to entry that may be easier to clear if you have a politically connected relative like the Breitweisers have.
 
Last edited:
Care to elaborate why?
I think it should be self-evident from the fact Walmart isn't stocking the likes of Marvel and DC.

There's a niche market for this, and moving a niche product into a "big box" store does not magically mean it ceases to be a niche product. I don't think Walmart puts much stake in books in general. If Walmart did, they would have sold manga before anything AA puts out. Say what you want about Walmart, but you don't become a 400 BILLION dollar corporation by being retarded. My guess is this deal happened because WM reasoned their risk was negligible.

I disagreed with Dongs on the 50 cent thing, but don't misunderstand me: I believe AA comics had very unimpressive sales from Walmart. Mitch fucked his backers and gained nothing from it. Total goat rope.

All of the AA books seem to target the indy comics reader rather than going for the kind of mass appeal you need to move hundreds of thousands of units positioned between the torn bodice romance novels and the Peppa Pig coloring books.
Agreed.
 
Last edited:
Care to elaborate why? I don't see why not. Everybody shops at Walmart (unless they're rich and/or snooty) and I can't see how getting on the shelf there would be bad for any product that wants widespread exposure.
People go to Walmart to purchase general commodities not special items meant to be keepsakes. CG products have been marketed from the start as a rejection of that model - a step up from mass-produced, commodity pulp. Boutique maybe? That's part of its allure to many. Cheaping out for a Walmart deal seems a betrayal of that unspoken principle.
 
Last edited:
EDIT: Honestly, Kamen America would have been a better fit considering potential traffic. Simple straightforward colorful and fun looking is more likely to catch the eye than angry looking cowboys no one ever heard of or a beautiful but not particularly striking Butch Juice cover for some kind of historical fantasy.
Ehhhhh...

Worked better? Okay. I'll sign on with that.

Worked much better? No.

And I say that as somebody who some people in this thread probably think is gay for Tim Lim, based on my enjoyment of KA and how many times I've mentioned it here. For me, I just think it's a fun book. Guilty pleasure.

It's perhaps worth noting I couldn't give less of a fuck about Red Rooster, even though Mark Pellegrini (the other half of KA) was attached. Just like I don't give a fuck about Tim's Trump stuff.

I think it was a cockamamie idea to do this through Walmart, and I think it was downright idiotic and disgraceful to put it there before backers got theirs.

Cheaping out for a Walmart deal seems a betrayal of that unspoken principle manifested in greed above customer service.
Yes. I suspect Mitch wanted it in there because it would make him seem "all that." Look at this comic book! It's in Walmart! Walmart doesn't normally sell comic books! This must be something great and special!

That it didn't work out, and alienated future backers, is poetic justice. Fuck Mitch. Pride goeth before the fall.
 
The reason why Marvel and DC Comics don't stock in Walmart (not the other way around) is because the direct market with local comic shops operates on non-returnability in exchange for exclusivity. If Marvel and DC sell 500,000 copies of Iceman: Cumsicle to Walmart and nobody buys it, the publishers have to buy it back whereas Dan Shahin has to hustle out whatever trash Marvel squats out through the "back issue" market over the course of 20 years. To get around this would involve making things a large amount of customers would want to buy, and publishers in Western comics simply aren't prepared to do that. Too busy making comics about pozzing, trans diarrhea, being woke and shitty art. This is a problem that Allegiance Arts will potentially have to face (although with online sales and warehousing these days, Walmart may keep stock forever for all I know). It was a deal hammered out in the 1970s between retailers and publishers where the principle brokers have died or are on the verge of death, and the business world of today is unrecognizable from the world of 40-50 years ago. Since DC comics is breaking ties with the direct market, local comic shops could try returning comics to Diamond, but I don't see them having a lot of luck in trying to do so.

2020 was, according to the NYT, a boom year for print publishers (including Comicsgate in retrospect) thanks to everyone being locked down with nothing to do but read. As a big box chain, Walmart was allowed to remain open while hundreds of smaller comic competitors were shut down. And it's stocked with YA/Children's Graphic novels already; it seems like a small jump for taking comics customers and selling them to a slightly older audience could have been sold, perhaps in a different format, perhaps of a different subject matter. Yet after three years of nationwide distribution, Mitch Breitweiser is still trying to raise capital on Indiegogo and Kickstarter to fund his comics while other repeat creators have enough to get their comic more or less made before campaign launch.

Maybe pissing on whatever fanbase and enthusiasm you had for your product before launching it nationwide was a bad idea?
 
Last edited:
The reason why Marvel and DC Comics don't stock in Walmart (not the other way around) is because the direct market with local comic shops operates on non-returnability in exchange for exclusivity. If Marvel and DC sell 500,000 copies of Iceman: Cumsicle to Walmart and nobody buys it, the publishers have to buy it back whereas Dan Shahin has to hustle out whatever trash Marvel squats out through the "back issue" market over the course of 20 years.
How are local comic shops not bankrupt and converted into Starbucks by now?

Maybe pissing on whatever fanbase and enthusiasm you had for your product before launching it nationwide was a bad idea?
Duuuuuuuuh. Ya think?
 
CG products have been marketed from the start as a rejection of that model - a step up from mass-produced, commodity pulp.
Sometimes. Other times they're "fun disposable entertainment, you roll it up and use it as a fly swatter" which are meant to "look like you found it on the floor of a dingy Tijuana restroom". Comicsgate aren't always the most signal-cohesive bunch.
By covering their asses with manga, tabletop games, and classic back issues that still make bank
Don't forget those godforsaken Funko Pops.
 
By covering their asses with manga, tabletop games, and classic back issues that still make bank
A thought:

Maybe they should just sell those, and not accept inventory they can't move.

Or is that just too radical of an idea?

Don't forget those godforsaken Funko Pops.
Are Funko Pops outselling American comics now?

JFC.

@Mister Dongs , get us a spreadsheet on that one. And while you're at it, extrapolate the relative popularity of Peppa the Pig versus Liam Gray. Remember that Peppa has a TV show, so you're gonna have to factor in Nielsen Ratings. Along with the fact she's the official spokespig for Chinese People's Liberation Army. 😂

unnamed.gif
 
A thought:

Maybe they should just sell those, and not accept inventory they can't move.

Or is that just too radical of an idea?
Honestly? It kinda is, at least for stores already selling comics. These are already niche operations with a small but devoted base. Let's say a store dropped Marvel comics for example, there are people with Pull lists for $100+ a week plus whatever else they're into that will just stop putting in the cash in that store and go somewhere else so now every other comic that was still on the list takes a hit too. I've heard stories from storeowners of this kind of shit happening when a title falls off someone's list, comic nerds are picky fucks.

A weeb store out the gate could work, but current stores have to worry about scaring off the whales by phasing out comics
 
The reason why Marvel and DC Comics don't stock in Walmart (not the other way around) is because the direct market with local comic shops operates on non-returnability in exchange for exclusivity. If Marvel and DC sell 500,000 copies of Iceman: Cumsicle to Walmart and nobody buys it, the publishers have to buy it back whereas Dan Shahin has to hustle out whatever trash Marvel squats out through the "back issue" market over the course of 20 years. To get around this would involve making things a large amount of customers would want to buy, and publishers in Western comics simply aren't prepared to do that. Too busy making comics about pozzing, trans diarrhea, being woke and shitty art. This is a problem that Allegiance Arts will potentially have to face (although with online sales and warehousing these days, Walmart may keep stock forever for all I know). It was a deal hammered out in the 1970s between retailers and publishers where the principle brokers have died or are on the verge of death, and the business world of today is unrecognizable from the world of 40-50 years ago. Since DC comics is breaking ties with the direct market, local comic shops could try returning comics to Diamond, but I don't see them having a lot of luck in trying to do so.

2020 was, according to the NYT, a boom year for print publishers (including Comicsgate in retrospect) thanks to everyone being locked down with nothing to do but read. As a big box chain, Walmart was allowed to remain open while hundreds of smaller comic competitors were shut down. And it's stocked with YA/Children's Graphic novels already; it seems like a small jump for taking comics customers and selling them to a slightly older audience could have been sold, perhaps in a different format, perhaps of a different subject matter. Yet after three years of nationwide distribution, Mitch Breitweiser is still trying to raise capital on Indiegogo and Kickstarter to fund his comics while other repeat creators have enough to get their comic more or less made before campaign launch.

Maybe pissing on whatever fanbase and enthusiasm you had for your product before launching it nationwide was a bad idea?

There is nothing exclusive about direct market comics. Marvel and DC could sell in Walmart if they wanted to. And DC has done multiple initiatives inside and with Walmart in the past few years. But they sell poorly. And because they sell poorly, Walmart gives them bad treatment within the stores. Walmart rewards winners and punishes losers. Comics are losers.

The Allegiance Arts deal is somewhat unique. It was able to be negotiated through the connections in Arkansas that Mitch's wife has and the friends of Mitch's wife have. Its also important to understand that the business plan for Allegiance Arts was to use sales at Walmart to leverage a sale of the Allegiance Arts characters to a media company. Selling intellectual property was always the goal of Mitch's investors. They used crowdfunding as a proof-point to get into Walmart. They intended to use Walmart as a proof-point to sell on the intellectual property. It didn't work. But they could blame their setbacks on COVID for a long while.

As far as comics distribution goes, the short story is that prior to around 1970, comics were produced by magazine distributors as a small part of big publishing empires. The magazine business and the distribution system was both corrupt and often overly criminal. Comic books floated along in the publishing world as part of something much bigger than just selling comics.

But in the late 1960s, it all changed. DC comics was sold to a crooked funeral home and parking lot company in New York. Marvel comics was sold to an erratic New York Attorney who speciaiized in doing mergers (Martin S. Ackerman). Ackerman also bought Marvel's distributor, wrecked it and sold off the pieces. The eventual situation was that the comics companies (Marvel and DC) were operating in the mid-1970s independent of any magazine related company. And the distributors reacted to the situation by robbing them blind. They started selling returned comics illegally to discount stores. They would manipulate the sales numbers to cheat the companies. And it was possible for back issue dealers to make deals with distributors to buy comics in bulk before they ever got to stores. Hence the odd shortages of certain marvel books with large print runs in the 1970s.

This type of behavior had a long history. The original publisher of DC comics (Wheeler-Nelson) had the company stolen out from under him by people manipulating the distribution system he used. American comics with returnable distribution ONLY worked when the comics companies were integrated with the publishers and distributors. Minus being integrated publisher/distributor companies, comics had no chance in the magazine distribution system.

So a system gradually developed where Marvel would sell non-returnable comics to individuals at a substantial discount. That system was however underpinned by a critical assumption: that unsold back issue comics continued to have value. But eventually that assumption broke down. The combination of Marvel/DC publishing back issue collections themselves constantly AND the rise of digital comics (pirate digital and official digital) basically killed the back issue market off entirely. The other thing that happened is that the move into the direct market led to comics being exclusively focused on "superhero" comics with everything that used to appeal to a wider audience in comics gone.

The other problem was that ALL print publishing started going into terminal decline maybe 10-12 years ago. All phyiscal media (books, newspapers, magazines, comics, etc) is in terminal decline. The content wasn't responsible for the decline because even content that had not changed in decades (Archie digests at checkouts) and had been very stable sellers stopped selling.

To survive as comics publishers, Marvel & DC have to change just about everything they are doing. Because no matter what the quality of the content, they would still be in trouble. The format of the floppy is bad. The price-points are bad. The distribution system is bad. Everything has to be re-invented just as things were re-invented in the 1970s with the direct market.
All the old economic assumptions behind selling comics are broken.

The American Comic Book was "invented" as a way to (a) soak up excess printing capacity in metal plate printing and (b) produce an incredibly cheap disposable product at a rock-bottom price point. But everything that created and sustained them is gone & not coming back.

2020 was a "boom" year for print media after over a decade of terminal decline. But that "boom" didn't come anywhere near restoring anything in print to where it used to be even ten years ago. And minus COVID, any gains for print media will likely go into reverse.
 
Well... Manga has sold very well at B&N.

Would comics? I dunno. I presume B&N does sell comics and graphic novels. I presume people buy them, even if sales are down in a relative sense.

B&N stocks graphic novels by DC & Marvel. But compared to Manga, they don't sell. There are young people who go to the stores and are all over the manga asile at B&N. But the American Superhero graphic novel stuff is just dead.

Back in 2019 (the last trustworthy numbers due to COVID and changes in reporting numbers), the best-selling DC/Marvel graphic novel came in at #36 in the bookscan sales reports for the graphic novel category. And the title at #36 was Watchmen which was a book from the 1980s. Scholastic and Manga dominate the sales list.
 
Care to elaborate why? I don't see why not. Everybody shops at Walmart (unless they're rich and/or snooty) and I can't see how getting on the shelf there would be bad for any product that wants widespread exposure.

I thought the Walmart deal was a great win for Allegiance. It's too bad they fucked the pooch with it by both screwing the crowdfundees and not getting the later books on the shelves in Walmart at the time. But under more competent and prepared leadership, that could have been a game-changing opportunity.
I think that the Wal Mart deal was a good idea on paper that overlooked some things. People haven't been buying comics from Wal Mart in a long time. Secondary to that, the price was a bit much for a retail chain that markets themselves as having low prices. That's also not event touching the debacle of price stickers on the comic, which was supposed to be eliminated for the second issues, but the second and third issues all had price stickers. Additionally, the comics didn't have much of a hook for new readers. None of them were superhero comics, which may be interesting for many comic fans, but we're looking at an audience that isn't necessarily looking for comic books... that and the Wal Mart crowd is "lowest common denominator" who, if they were interested in comic books, they would be superhero comics.

I was excited at the first issues, but by the third issues, I kept forgetting to go get them until a month after they had come out. There were still many copies of the first issues, and the Allegiance Arts display was trashed. They might as well have been copies of America, for how many unsold issues there were.
 
What @Strix454 mentions in regard to Mitch wanting to license his characters is interesting to me.

I remember Tim Lim saying that there was a brief point in which he was allowed to use Red Rooster in some capacity, and he did so the first edition of one of his books (Black Hops?), but that he is prohibited from doing it again or reissuing said work. I might be misremembering the story, but it was something like that.

I sorta assumed that maybe Mitch wanted to distance himself from Comicsgate controversy and go "mainstream," but now I'm wondering maybe he expected Tim to pay a licensing fee and Tim said fuck that.

Mitch seems like one of those guys that has better "contacts" than talent or business sense.

This was on some show with @VIkkiVerse and Dean where they interviewed Tim and Mark. Do you know what I'm talking about, Vikki?
 
How are local comic shops not bankrupt and converted into Starbucks by now?
Because nobody actually buys thousands of comics featuring gay shit. Some buy extra copies due to variant cover (order 50 regular to get one special) that they sell at high price to collector or they want to quality for some discount (order X to get discount Y) that eventually gets them into the positive. Or the book might be over shipped so shop has to think about only where to store that shit and maybe sell it for 20 cents at some point. Walmart probably wouldn't give a shit about such promotional tactics and would tell publishers to fuck off.

And obviously there are some retards who order retarded shit and go out of business.
 
What @Strix454 mentions in regard to Mitch wanting to license his characters is interesting to me.

I remember Tim Lim saying that there was a brief point in which he was allowed to use Red Rooster in some capacity, and he did so the first edition of one of his books (Black Hops?), but that he is prohibited from doing it again or reissuing said work. I might be misremembering the story, but it was something like that.

I sorta assumed that maybe Mitch wanted to distance himself from Comicsgate controversy and go "mainstream," but now I'm wondering maybe he expected Tim to pay a licensing fee and Tim said fuck that.

Mitch seems like one of those guys that has better "contacts" than talent or business sense.

This was on some show with @VIkkiVerse and Dean where they interviewed Tim and Mark. Do you know what I'm talking about, Vikki?

Mark Pellegrini was the co-creator and original writer of Red Rooster. That relationship might be the reason they were able to use the character briefly in one of their books. I don't remember any actual details of them using Red Rooster though.

But Mitch got rid of Mark as writer and had his scripts re-written long before the first issue of Red Rooster (or the first 1/3rd of Red Rooster) was sent out to backers. The version of the story I've heard is that Mark submitted his script, Mitch stopped communicating with him and eventually Red Rooster arrived clearly re-written by someone else. Mitch was not interested in any further collaboration nor was there any further communication. I would suspect he was pushed out because at the time he was on the comicsgate enemies list and Mitch was still pretending to be part of comicsgate.

Mitch's wife is the one with the business contacts in Arkansas. The rise of Walmart and the successful sale of the company Alltel to Verizon/ATT created all kinds of dumb money in Arkansas who invest in all kinds of questionable business ventures sharktank-style. Mitch's investors are 1) An Alltel communications guy turned arkansas political/business consultant, 2) a guy who got rich at Walmart and 3) a dumb real estate hustler. Their basic idea was that they looked at the success of Disney/Marvel and the outragous prices being paid for media-related content back in around 2018.....and wanted to do a sale of comic related intellectual property to the entertainment industry. But in a dumb way where they had to spend very little money. All kinds of people (Down to Preston Poulter and Zombienomicon) have had the same idea.

Their contacts could get them a sweetheart deal at Walmart. But none of them had any contacts within the entertainment industry or much outside of their inbred social circles in Arkansas.
 
Mark Pellegrini was the co-creator and original writer of Red Rooster. That relationship might be the reason they were able to use the character briefly in one of their books. I don't remember any actual details of them using Red Rooster though.

But Mitch got rid of Mark as writer and had his scripts re-written long before the first issue of Red Rooster (or the first 1/3rd of Red Rooster) was sent out to backers. The version of the story I've heard is that Mark submitted his script, Mitch stopped communicating with him and eventually Red Rooster arrived clearly re-written by someone else. Mitch was not interested in any further collaboration nor was there any further communication. I would suspect he was pushed out because at the time he was on the comicsgate enemies list and Mitch was still pretending to be part of comicsgate.

Mitch's wife is the one with the business contacts in Arkansas. The rise of Walmart and the successful sale of the company Alltel to Verizon/ATT created all kinds of dumb money in Arkansas who invest in all kinds of questionable business ventures sharktank-style. Mitch's investors are 1) An Alltel communications guy turned arkansas political/business consultant, 2) a guy who got rich at Walmart and 3) a dumb real estate hustler. Their basic idea was that they looked at the success of Disney/Marvel and the outragous prices being paid for media-related content back in around 2018.....and wanted to do a sale of comic related intellectual property to the entertainment industry. But in a dumb way where they had to spend very little money. All kinds of people (Down to Preston Poulter and Zombienomicon) have had the same idea.

Their contacts could get them a sweetheart deal at Walmart. But none of them had any contacts within the entertainment industry or much outside of their inbred social circles in Arkansas.
The Red Rooster character appeared as an Easter Egg in Black Hops #1 in either a picture or as an action figure. I can't remember which ATM. The character was never.written into the story.
 
Back
Top Bottom