#Comicsgate - The Culture Wars Hit The Funny Books!

[I Love Beef]

The only thing that is motivating about this conversation is how independent production and webcomics still are a fertile ground and the next frontier for comics, and that about as great the art can be for comics, no amount of great art can ever make up for a bad or lacking story. It's no wonder why manga is still kicking your asses into today and is a bigger inspiration still into this next millennium. They may all work in teams just as you do, but they at least get shit done.

TL;DR, holy shit, priorities are out of wack. Also, learn to do business, shit the fuck. You all never heard of a contract before? Even in grassroots and simple business, negotiation and obligation is everything.

 

[FROG]

$3500? I havent even seen one cent. $5,000 would be fair for the multiple drafts of 4 issues I wrote, and for all the connections I used to promote the book.

The other three issues don't matter, they were never drawn or used to create sales. So that's on you.

The one issue that raised $39,000 on IGG, 48 pages of words by you that were rewritten by Donal, and 48 beautifully illustrated, handcrafted action packed pages by Donal Delay.

The money was there to hire someone else to produce this book, but Donal did that work himself, for his rate. (Which I don't know.)

Your scripting rate could be determined too. As I said, $1000 would be overpaying you, but I think Donal should do it.

After all of the expenses incurred in making the comic, both of your uneven labor included, the profits should be split. I'm sure a judge would determine that.

Or even funnier, Nick Rekeita. Maybe discuss this with him.

I can't tell if you're joking or not. You completely ignore the labor involved with creating the characters and story. How much would it have cost you to hire someone to invent Cyberfrog, the other characters and their story for you to just draw? How much would you have charged an artist to invent that for them to draw and own forever? Isn't that what you did for the big comics companies? Invent characters that others drew and the companies ended up owning? You were paid for that, right? You still get checks for doing that in the form of royalties, right?

The characters were created by Donal, I believe.

But yes, story means a lot. Still, my page rate for drawing GREEN LANTERN characters was much higher than Geoff Johns, and yet, royalties were a 50/50 split.

 

[Adamska]

I believe the way it's being posited by Nasser is that after the cost of development was put in and the units made, the left over profits were to be split between the two as partners 50/50. Ethan here is also including the idea of paying yourself, which is actually something you should do, since your skills have a value that should be factored in. In this case Donal should pay himself (and pay Nasser too), as that is labor cost that comes out of the initial start-up. Donal would get more, as pencillers traditionally are worth more in a visual medium than the writer.

Say something like 150 bucks a page vs. Nasser getting 100. Rough as hell napkin work on that, so the values will differ of course. Then you have to provide payment for the other tasks, like inking and lettering and finally printing and distributing.

Not that it matters because I'm pretty certain Donal made a point to basically nuke any profits via the delays, then using up the start-up for more labor in the form of rewrites and lettering of the original to minimize the check. It's real common in creative circles to do accounting tricks to fuck over the taxman or a partner if the relationship falls apart.

In short, there's probably no real profit anymore due to mismanagement and spite and you always write a contract.

 

[SaidNoOneEver]

The characters were created by Donal, I believe.

But yes, story means a lot. Still, my page rate for drawing GREEN LANTERN characters was much higher than Geoff Johns, and yet, royalties were a 50/50 split.

Then that's the whole ballgame. How much of Nasser's script made it to the shipped book and who created the characters? Should be easy enough to flesh out. Where's Nasser;s original script?

 

[Least Concern]

The other three issues don't matter, they were never drawn or used to create sales. So that's on you.

The one issue that raised $39,000 on IGG, 48 pages of words by you that were rewritten by Donal, and 48 beautifully illustrated, handcrafted action packed pages by Donal Delay.

The money was there to hire someone else to produce this book, but Donal did that work himself, for his rate. (Which I don't know.)

Your scripting rate could be determined too. As I said, $1000 would be overpaying you, but I think Donal should do it.

After all of the expenses incurred in making the comic, both of your uneven labor included, the profits should be split. I'm sure a judge would determine that.

Or even funnier, Nick Rekeita. Maybe discuss this with him.

Okay, Frog. We get the way things should be, if this deal were done under the assumptions and standards of the normal comic book industry. You've stated this many times.

However, the deal between these two, for better or worse, was "we'll split the money 50/50 after expenses." Not "I'll get $4500 for art, you'll get $1000 for writing, and we'll split the rest after that." I don't think either of the two interpreted that deal to include a separate payout for one or both of them. If there's any evidence of it, the interested parties may feel free to share it, but "that's the way the deal should have been made, so that is how Donal altered the deal. Pray he does not alter it further" doesn't cut it.

 

[SaidNoOneEver]

In this case Donal should pay himself (and pay Nasser too), as that is labor cost that comes out of the initial start-up. Donal would get more, as pencillers traditionally are worth more in a visual medium than the writer.

I've been under the impression that Nasser created the characters. If not that changes things.

 

[Adamska]

Then that's the whole ballgame. How much of Nasser's script made it to the shipped book and who created the characters? Should be easy enough to flesh out. Where's Nasser;s original script?

A decent human being should pay for the time based on what was done and demonstrable during the time they were employed. But I'd not be shocked if it was totally rewritten to avoid paying by the page and any chance of royalties too.

I've been under the impression that Nasser created the characters. If not that changes things.

If he did, then there's a royalty factor for any future works (lol unlikely) and a price tag for the IP itself should it be demonstrable. Which given the shitshow and lack of documentation means good luck.

 

[FROG]

I believe the way it's being posited by Nasser is that after the cost of development was put in and the units made, the left over profits were to be split between the two as partners 50/50. Ethan here is also including the idea of paying yourself, which is actually something you should do, since your skills have labor. In this case Donal should pay himself (and pay Nasser too), as that is labor cost that comes out of the initial start-up. Donal would get more, as pencillers traditionally are worth more in a visual medium than the writer.

Say something like 150 bucks a page vs. Nasser getting 100. Rough as hell napkin work on that, so the values will differ of course. Then you have to provide payment for the other tasks, like inking and lettering and finally printing and distributing.

Not that it matters because I'm pretty certain Donal made a point to basically nuke any profits via the delays, then using up the start-up for more labor in the form of rewrites and lettering of the original to minimize the check. It's real common in creative circles to do accounting tricks to fuck over the taxman or a partner if the relationship falls apart.

In short, there's probably no real profit anymore due to mismanagement and spite and you always write a contract.

So Adamska is basically 100% agreeing with me here. Except for the idea of paying a writing $100 per page, which is close to Neil Gaiman rates. I'd say $20 per page for Nasser.

 

[NasserRabadi13]

Then that's the whole ballgame. How much of Nasser's script made it to the shipped book and who created the characters? Should be easy enough to flesh out. Where's Nasser;s original script?

I posted video links several times already where I did a comparison. It's exactly my script except he added some curse words and like 5 additional word balloons.

 

[FROG]

Okay, Frog. We get the way things should be, if this deal were done under the assumptions and standards of the normal comic book industry. You've stated this many times.

However, the deal between these two, for better or worse, was "we'll split the money 50/50 after expenses." Not "I'll get $4500 for art, you'll get $1000 for writing, and we'll split the rest after that." I don't think either of the two interpreted that deal to include a separate payout for one or both of them. If there's any evidence of it, the interested parties may feel free to share it, but "that's the way the deal should have been made, so that is how Donal altered the deal. Pray he does not alter it further" doesn't cut it.

I like the way lettering, coloring and printing all fall under "expenses". But the art, the stuff that's being lettered, colored and printed, doesn't. That's appearing out of nowhere, for free.

I'm saying ALL of these things are expenses. Work is an expense.

These two people are retarded, and didn't make a sensible, clear or fair deal for themselves.

It's reasonable to draw the conclusion that 50/50 split refers to profits, and those don't include the cost of making the comic book.

 

[Adamska]

So Adamska is basically 100% agreeing with me here. Except for the idea of paying a writing $100 per page, which is close to Neil Gaiman rates. I'd say $20 per page for Nasser.

I don't have a full head of the rates given I don't work in the field, though I'd state the final rate should be higher given their original contract as partners and the ambiguous nature of who created what due to the fuckery of no written contract. Spitballing around 40 - 60 per due to that as a bar.

In this case, nothing to disagree with; you always pay labor, even if it's yourself doing the job.

 

[FROG]

Pretty simple stuff!

Before, I thought Donal was trying to steal from Nasser.

Now I see it's the other way around.

Imagine having to slave on 48 pages of artwork and Nasser is there collecting 50% of your page rate for nothing, because he thinks he got you on my YouTube show.

 

[SaidNoOneEver]

A decent human being should pay for the time based on what was done and demonstrable during the time they were employed. But I'd not be shocked if it was totally rewritten to avoid paying by the page and any chance of royalties too.

If he did, then there's a royalty factor for any future works (lol unlikely) and a price tag for the IP itself should it be demonstrable. Which given the shitshow and lack of documentation means good luck.

This new kiwi comment editor sucks ass.

Even if the script was rewritten, unless the entire story changed then it's still Nasser's creation. Changing the words to tell the same story isn't enough. That is easy enough to figure out if provided the original Nasser draft.

Nasser surrendered the IP and gave it to Donal for future works outright in exchange for the previously agreed-upon 50/50 split on this issue. I still maintain my opinion that their implicit agreement said nothing about one getting a larger cut than the other by way of a separate fee for drawing or valuing one side's contribution more than the other. "50/50" means 50/50. Even if they shared the creation of the characters that doesn't change the implicit meaning of "50/50" that we've seen in their communications.

I know nothing about the business side of the mainstream comic book industry but neither will a judge (nor will I think they would care). This whole agreement exists to circumvent that mainstream in the first place. I'm willing to bet that after reading everything provided here a judge would agree: 50/50, each side walks away with the same amount after documented expenses are excluded.

It's reasonable to draw the conclusion that 50/50 split refers to profits, and those don't include the cost of making the comic book.

Not if the communication between the two that constitutes their business agreement makes zero mention of it. "50/50" means both side's contributions are to be valued equally. If Donal would've said in the beginning "We'll split 50/50 of the profits after I pay myself a rate for drawing and you a lesser rate (if any) for writing", then yes. But they didn't.


"I like the way lettering, coloring and printing all fall under "expenses". But the art, the stuff that's being lettered, colored and printed, doesn't. That's appearing out of nowhere, for free."

[Fuck this editor sucks] Don't blame the poster for that, Nasser/Donal are the ones who didn't include the art under expenses. Writing is also "art" to a layman, by the way. You assume that they both knew that when everyone else seems to understand the exact opposite. The story and characters are what that art is based on. You're arguing that that appeared out of nowhere for free too. The agreement implies that one contribute the story and the other contribute the art, with the proceeds received after producing a combination of the two be split 50/50.

EDIT: Nasser, right about now you should say "Oh, by the way my rate for concept writing (before final editing) is $1,000/page. Not my fault you didn't know that Ethan!" That's essentially what they seem to be doing to you.

 

[Adamska]

This new kiwi comment editor sucks ass.

Even if the script was rewritten, unless the entire story changed then it's still Nasser's creation. Changing the words to tell the same story isn't enough. That is easy enough to figure out if provided the original Nasser draft.

Nasser surrendered the IP and gave it to Donal for future works outright in exchange for the previously agreed-upon 50/50 split on this issue. I still maintain my opinion that their implicit agreement said nothing about one getting a larger cut than the other by way of a separate fee for drawing or valuing one side's contribution more than the other. "50/50" means 50/50. Even if they shared the creation of the characters that doesn't change the implicit meaning of "50/50" that we've seen in their communications.

I know nothing about the business side of the mainstream comic book industry but neither will a judge (nor will I think they would care). This whole agreement exists to circumvent that mainstream in the first place. I'm willing to bet that after reading everything provided here a judge would agree: 50/50, each side walks away with the same amount after documented expenses are excluded.

Oh sure, the profits left over from development 50/50. It's still easy to ensure there's no profits though; just invest any left over into a sequel or something.

As for any pay by page set-up, dunno if they hammered in any payment they might make from doing the labor themselves. I'd probably do it though just to cover my ass and follow basic labor laws. Again, this is why you write a goddamn contract, so you can usually avoid and have a way of redress over the fine details.

And Nasser would then not get royalties unless that was part of the agreement to hand over his parts in the IP. Though given the problems in even releasing this original batch, that's not likely.

The more I think about how this was handled, the more I'm reminded of how Ken Panders got away with breaking Archie's Sonic IP due to not having a contract on hand (in their case due to incompetently losing it).

 

[AnOminous]

I know nothing about the business side of the mainstream comic book industry but neither will a judge (nor will I think they would care). This whole agreement exists to circumvent that mainstream in the first place. I'm willing to bet that after reading everything provided here a judge would agree: 50/50, each side walks away with the same amount after documented expenses are excluded.

If this is a partnership, and unless the contract specifies otherwise, it certainly sounds like that, partners bear a high fiduciary duty to treat the interests of the partnership ahead of their own competing interests. I don't really think "I decided to pay myself all the rest of the money so ha ha there are no profits" flies.

But industry standards can also be used to interpret a contract, i.e. terms used in the contract will be used as they would be in the industry, if ambiguous, and especially if both parties to the contract know the industry and would have been familiar with it.

Unless an agreement explicitly allowed one partner to render the partnership unprofitable and therefore just not pay the other, that doesn't sound right. If it actually does, okay, whatever, people are allowed to make dumb agreements that favor one of them over the other.

Oh sure, the profits left over from development 50/50. Dunno if they hammered in any payment they might make from doing the labor themselves though. Again, this is why you write a goddamn contract.

In this case, you want a contract specifically if you're doing anything other than a 50/50 partnership which you really fucking don't want to be in. Almost anything, a contractor relationship, an LLC, is better than partnership where you end up fully liable for any dumb shit the other side does as well as obligated with a full fiduciary duty to the partnership and the other partner. Why would you want that?

 

[The Bovinian Derivative]

Do twitter DMs count as a formal contract anyway? Judging by how this thread is going we're all pissing in the wind.

 

[VIkkiVerse]

Do twitter DMs count as a formal contract anyway? Judging by how this thread is going we're all pissing in the wind.

Yes

 

[AnOminous]

Do twitter DMs count as a formal contract anyway? Judging by how this thread is going we're all pissing in the wind.

It would have to be communications (possibly in writing) that would constitute a binding contract under other circumstances, but there's no reason an otherwise valid contractual agreement formed over an electronic communications medium in public would be less binding than one written on a napkin in a bar, so long as it otherwise complied both with contract law, the UCC, and any formalities required by the relevant statute of frauds.

There would still have to be an offer, an acceptance of that offer, and enough clarity to it to determine there was a meeting of the minds as to what the parties were agreeing to. And all the other aspects of a contract like consideration, the parties being capable of contracting (I am pretty sure they are both 18), etc.

 

[SaidNoOneEver]

If this is a partnership, and unless the contract specifies otherwise, it certainly sounds like that, partners bear a high fiduciary duty to treat the interests of the partnership ahead of their own competing interests. I don't really think "I decided to pay myself all the rest of the money so ha ha there are no profits" flies.

But industry standards can also be used to interpret a contract, i.e. terms used in the contract will be used as they would be in the industry, if ambiguous, and especially if both parties to the contract know the industry and would have been familiar with it.

Unless an agreement explicitly allowed one partner to render the partnership unprofitable and therefore just not pay the other, that doesn't sound right. If it actually does, okay, whatever, people are allowed to make dumb agreements that favor one of them over the other.



In this case, you want a contract specifically if you're doing anything other than a 50/50 partnership which you really fucking don't want to be in. Almost anything, a contractor relationship, an LLC, is better than partnership where you end up fully liable for any dumb shit the other side does as well as obligated with a full fiduciary duty to the partnership and the other partner. Why would you want that?

Now that Donal has changed the rules there's nothing stopping Nasser from saying ""Oh, by the way my rate for concept writing (before final editing) is $1,000/page. Not my fault you didn't know that Donal! That expense should come off the top before our split."

 

[Absurdity]

If Donal hired someone else to help with the book, unless he took the time to renegotiate with Nasser, he'd be responsible to pay for it with his own half of the profits.

If Ethan didn't run his corner of CG like a two-bit gangleader and allowing the warcramps to run the asylum, the split might never have happened in the first place. By making his YouTube streams/shows the central hub of all social media promotion, Ethan's brand as a self-promoting put-down artist with an organized group dedicated to gayops would have to take center stage and if Nasser was assigned the gimp role, he'd have to put up or shut up. Nasser didn't do that and didn't play nice with WC. Ethan decided to ridicule Nasser fairly early on and quite honestly I suspect he advised Donal to dump him. They needed help and that's where Tuggy came in with his miscarriage-of-justice op (total BS) so Ethan could have a formal excuse to kick Nasser, who "doesn't know when to quit," from CG. The game since then has been to wear Nasser out and hope he drops any and all hope of getting a single cent.

Ethan when he still thought he could softly handle Nasser: "I have described Nasser as truly gifted. I would describe him as exceptional."
Ethan today: "$3500 isn't enough of a pay day for you for one shitty script?"

Like any slimeball perp, Ethan "I have no heart to fight with individuals" Van Sciver keeps coming back to the crime scene to try and finish what he started.